Question: When copying a Spell Scroll into a Spellbook, should we take into account both rules on the PHB and DMG? How?
The PHB has the following rules on Copying a Spell into your Spellbook:
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a level 1+ Wizard spell, you can copy it into your spellbook if it’s of a level you can prepare and if you have time to copy it. For each level of the spell, the transcription takes 2 hours and costs 50 GP. Afterward you can prepare the spell like the other spells in your spellbook.
The DMG has the following rules on Spell Scrolls:
Copying a Scroll into a Spellbook. A Wizard spell on a Spell Scroll can be copied into a spellbook. When a spell is copied in this way, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 plus the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell is copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the Spell Scroll is destroyed.
So, by the rules above and in the case of a Level 1 spell, I understand that a Spell Scroll can be copied into a Spellbook but I have to spend 2 hours, 50 GP and succeed on a DC 11 Arcana check, am I right? Seems kinda obvious but if it was, then why not include the DMG rule in the PHB when it is exclusive to the Wizard? Is it a mistake or was it intentional and maybe there is another interpretation I don't get?
I mean, the PHB describes how to copy generic Wizard spells, such as those found in other spellbooks or on scrolls. The DMG provides specific rules for magical Spell Scrolls (EDIT: fix tooltip)
EDIT#2: you also need to spend time and pay money when copying Spell Scrolls
Are we sure we need to spend time and money to copy the scroll? You are consuming the scroll, that took time and money to make. And I might have missed it but it doesn't say to do so in the Copying a Scroll rule anywhere does it?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
2014: A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell’s level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
2024: A Wizard spell on a Spell Scroll can be copied into a spellbook. When a spell is copied in this way, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 plus the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell is copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the Spell Scroll is destroyed.
That distinction was made with a reason. In 2014 rules it says it is as other spells are copied. But they removed that bit specifically. Because now it doesn't reference back to the copy spells rules even at all. It is its entirely own self contained method.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Or they consider the "just as spells in the spellbook" to be implicit and trimmed the extraneous text. It'd be a bit broken if you can find a high level spell scroll and just instantly bash it into your book at no cost, with the benefit well outweighing the loss of a single typically undertuned cast of the spell.
Or they consider the "just as spells in the spellbook" to be implicit and trimmed the extraneous text. It'd be a bit broken if you can find a high level spell scroll and just instantly bash it into your book at no cost, with the benefit well outweighing the loss of a single typically undertuned cast of the spell.
No cost? WDYM. It costs you the scroll. A magic item. That is a cost that is already higher than the one listed for copying a spell from another wizard's book.
Regardless, it is clear that the new rules consider copying a Spell and copying a Scroll as two different things. They have separate rules that don't reference one another. 2014 rules did. 2024 rules don't.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Or they consider the "just as spells in the spellbook" to be implicit and trimmed the extraneous text. It'd be a bit broken if you can find a high level spell scroll and just instantly bash it into your book at no cost, with the benefit well outweighing the loss of a single typically undertuned cast of the spell.
No cost? WDYM. It costs you the scroll. A magic item. That is a cost that is already higher than the one listed for copying a spell from another wizard's book.
Regardless, it is clear that the new rules consider copying a Spell and copying a Scroll as two different things. They have separate rules that don't reference one another. 2014 rules did. 2024 rules don't.
That would be why I said "if you can find", and specifically addressed the comparative value of using/copying a found scroll. And you're welcome to your opinion, even though it's rather tenuous and is more based on splitting hairs of different editions rather than reading the full body of rules for the current edition.
I think the OP actually had the right interpretation: to copy a scroll call for both the cost and time from the PHB and the arcana roll from the DMG. Why. Because they are app,ting to 2 different parts of the process. To write a spell into your spellbook ( from any source - including a scroll) you have to pay the time and costs. Then active scrolls you need to make the arcana check to get your copy nderstanding of the spell correct as you write it down. When copying from a non active source like another wizard’s spellbook you don’t have to make the check because you’re not dealing with a “live” spell. Back in early editions you could actually treat your spellbook as a scroll in emergencies casting a spell from it as a scroll but doing so wiped the spell out of your spellbook. You then needed to find a new copy of it and spend the gold and time to copy it back into the spellbook. Because I continue to use this rule as a homebrew rule in my campaign I will be requiring the arcana check for all efforts to copy spells into a spellbook as all spells in it are technically “live”.
I also think my original thought is correct: the one that combines the rules on the PHB as well as those on the DMG, the latter being some kind of addendum to the spell scroll rules, although I still maintain it would've made more sense to put it alongside the rest of the rules on the Expanding and Replacing a Spellbook box, because that box mentions a Spell Scroll as a way of finding a Wizard spell. Maybe it was a matter of space, maybe they wanted to keep it the same way as 2014, but for me and my party it was the kind of things we don't notice and, therefore, we didn't implement. We were just copying the scroll into a spellbook and it would dissappear after but there was no Arcana check needed.
On the other hand, there's the opinion that, because they are different rules on different books, they do not apply or relate to each other. The PHB mentions spells that you may find in a very generalised way, but it specifies a Spell Scroll as being one of those. So it is clear that we have to spend time and pay money to copy it, and it makes sense. Losing a Spell Scroll forever is a small price compared to being able to cast that spell everyday, more than once in most cases. The rules on the DMG are just an addendum to the previous rules on Copying a Spell into the Book, which yeah, seems odd and really out of place, but it is the way that makes more sense, to me at least.
Copying a Spell and Copying a Spell Scroll are, in fact, different things, but the first one is more of an umbrella term, referring to many ways in which you can find a addable spell, like:
A Wizard's Spellbook (RAW: 2 hours per Spell Level + 50 GP per Spell Level)
A Spell Scroll (RAW: 2 hours per Spell Level + 50 GP per Spell Level + DC 10+Spell Level Arcana check)
A series of magical runes inscripted on the walls of a ruin (just to think of an example)
This has just come up in my current campaign. I have a wizard that picked up a couple scrolls in a dungeon. For a wizard to copy wizard spells into a wizard book, it seems a pretty steep risk with the arcana check. I could understand an arcana check if a non-wizard (say a cleric) is copying wizard spells into their own spell repository.
I am tempted to rule that for my wizard to copy a darkvision scroll into his book, that the class-specific spell copying rules in the sidebar (5.24 PH pg 167) trump the more general Spell Scroll requirement. IT costs gold and time, but not risk of an DC11 Arcana check.
If the wizard wanted to copy a find traps spell into his book, I would likely require the time, gold, AND the arcana check since tat is not a native wizard spell.
The risk isn't that huge for a typical Wizard setup- INT is almost certainly going to be their main stat, Arcana is a very common pick as a skill, and especially with their getting an Expertise in a knowledge skill at level 2 now they can easily hit +8 to Arcana while still in 1st tier. By the time you're looking at 6th level and higher spells it could be +13. At that point it's literally a 10% chance to fail on a 6th level spell. Obviously this is dependent on a certain degree of optimization, but I suspect the number of main Wizard builds that don't take Arcana are a minority.
And Wizard's cannot copy non-Wizard spells into the book. Their spellbook only interacts with their class list.
[...] On the other hand, there's the opinion that, because they are different rules on different books, they do not apply or relate to each other. The PHB mentions spells that you may find in a very generalised way, but it specifies a Spell Scroll as being one of those. So it is clear that we have to spend time and pay money to copy it, and it makes sense. Losing a Spell Scroll forever is a small price compared to being able to cast that spell everyday, more than once in most cases. The rules on the DMG are just an addendum to the previous rules on Copying a Spell into the Book, which yeah, seems odd and really out of place, but it is the way that makes more sense, to me at least.
Copying a Spell and Copying a Spell Scroll are, in fact, different things, but the first one is more of an umbrella term, referring to many ways in which you can find a addable spell, like:
A Wizard's Spellbook (RAW: 2 hours per Spell Level + 50 GP per Spell Level)
A Spell Scroll (RAW: 2 hours per Spell Level + 50 GP per Spell Level + DC 10+Spell Level Arcana check)
A series of magical runes inscripted on the walls of a ruin (just to think of an example)
As I said in my first reply, that's how I see it too. For me, the PHB and DMG feel like one big book, with interconnected rules.
Just to clarify, the last example ("magical runes on a wall") also follows the rule "2 hours per Spell Level + 50 GP per Spell Level". The same applies if your character finds an ancient tome with Wizard spells or any other non-magical scroll/book containing Wizard spells.
Just to note: The Wizard sidebar about copying spells specifies Spell Scrolls as a potential source where you can find and copy spells. That Spell Scrolls have more specific rules doesn't override the base rule, meaning you absolutely have to spend the gold and still risk it.
Thanks for the responses everyone. I understand the points you all make. But I still see that there is an imbalance that carries a higher risk and cost for the wizard. I have decided that for my campaign, I will try to balance that out a little more. If there is no risk of failure to casting classes preparing spells by prayer or meditation, it should not have a risk for transcription either. I am not sure why there is a distinction between copying from a scroll versus copying from another book or from runes on a wall. The DMG Spell Scroll discussion lays out risk for casters trying to use scrolls of a higher level than their current skill. I think this can be easily applied to copying similar spells with similar risks for the wizard. The wizard can always wait to copy the higher-level spell until they reach a level where casting that spell would be at no risk.
So I am going with this for now. I can always change my mind later.
We will follow the general 2024 PHB rules for memorizing, preparing, and copying spells and try to balance the risk/reward for all spellcasting classes..
All non-wizard classes prepare their spells as detailed in the 5.24 PHB
Wizard spells at a level the wizard can normally cast can be copied into the spell book from whatever source (education, runes on a wall, spell scrolls, other spell books) at the cost of 2 hours and 50gp per spell level as per 5.24 PHB pg 167.
A wizard may attempt to copy a spell of a higher level than they can normally cast at risk. Similar to all other spell casters, they must make a check against their spellcasting ability to determine whether or not they cast/copy the spell. DC10+spell level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll, the spell is not copied into the book, and no other effect. (Using the general Spell Scroll rules from 5.24 DMG pg 305). The appropriate copying cost in time and gold is expended with either a success or failure.
I think the OP actually had the right interpretation: to copy a scroll call for both the cost and time from the PHB and the arcana roll from the DMG. Why. Because they are app,ting to 2 different parts of the process. To write a spell into your spellbook ( from any source - including a scroll) you have to pay the time and costs. Then active scrolls you need to make the arcana check to get your copy nderstanding of the spell correct as you write it down. When copying from a non active source like another wizard’s spellbook you don’t have to make the check because you’re not dealing with a “live” spell. Back in early editions you could actually treat your spellbook as a scroll in emergencies casting a spell from it as a scroll but doing so wiped the spell out of your spellbook. You then needed to find a new copy of it and spend the gold and time to copy it back into the spellbook. Because I continue to use this rule as a homebrew rule in my campaign I will be requiring the arcana check for all efforts to copy spells into a spellbook as all spells in it are technically “live”.
This is how I have been reading it too. The way I have explained it in my games is that a Spell Scroll is a spell that has already been cast and is stored; it doesn't necessarily have all the information on the scroll that is needed to fully understand and reproduce the spell. A Spell Scroll is a fragile container for the spell and in order to copy the spell from it to a Spellbook, the user has to essentially 'break' open the container and quickly reverse engineer the ciphered spell. I don't know if that is RAW from some official book I read in the past, but after reading over the 2024 rules for Scribing Spell Scrolls and copying a Spell Scroll to a Spellbook, it seems like a good narrative that fits within the rules.
Just to note: The Wizard sidebar about copying spells specifies Spell Scrolls as a potential source where you can find and copy spells. That Spell Scrolls have more specific rules doesn't override the base rule, meaning you absolutely have to spend the gold and still risk it.
Very true:
Expanding and Replacing a Spellbook The spells you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect your ongoing magical research, but you might find other spells during your adventures that you can add to the book. You could discover a Wizard spell on a Spell Scroll, for example, and then copy it into your spellbook. [...]
Just to note: The Wizard sidebar about copying spells specifies Spell Scrolls as a potential source where you can find and copy spells. That Spell Scrolls have more specific rules doesn't override the base rule, meaning you absolutely have to spend the gold and still risk it.
Very true:
Expanding and Replacing a Spellbook The spells you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect your ongoing magical research, but you might find other spells during your adventures that you can add to the book. You could discover a Wizard spell on a Spell Scroll, for example, and then copy it into your spellbook. [...]
This just means you have two options, then. You can either copy the spell from the scroll, by paying gold and spending time. Or. You can roll the arcana check, and consume the scroll, to just copy the scroll into the book. Both have comparable costs/risks.
The entry would look like this if you combined them:
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I’m of the old school camp of if you pass the check, then the ability to read but not trigger the scroll spell will allow the time and effort required to copy it to a spell book.
That way, even if you find a higher level scroll that you can’t prep or cast, you could still attempt to pass the check and begin the lengthy process of copying it into your various spell books.( wizards usually don’t have backup books, but I tend to carry a spare just in case. )
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
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Question: When copying a Spell Scroll into a Spellbook, should we take into account both rules on the PHB and DMG? How?
The PHB has the following rules on Copying a Spell into your Spellbook:
The DMG has the following rules on Spell Scrolls:
So, by the rules above and in the case of a Level 1 spell, I understand that a Spell Scroll can be copied into a Spellbook but I have to spend 2 hours, 50 GP and succeed on a DC 11 Arcana check, am I right? Seems kinda obvious but if it was, then why not include the DMG rule in the PHB when it is exclusive to the Wizard? Is it a mistake or was it intentional and maybe there is another interpretation I don't get?
Is it not the same as in the 2014 rules? This is a related thread (2014): Copying Spell scrolls. - Rules & Game Mechanics
I mean, the PHB describes how to copy generic Wizard spells, such as those found in other spellbooks or on scrolls. The DMG provides specific rules for magical Spell Scrolls (EDIT: fix tooltip)
EDIT#2: you also need to spend time and pay money when copying Spell Scrolls
Aight, thanks for that, honestly! I just needed to be sure <3
Are we sure we need to spend time and money to copy the scroll? You are consuming the scroll, that took time and money to make. And I might have missed it but it doesn't say to do so in the Copying a Scroll rule anywhere does it?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
2014: A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell’s level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
2024: A Wizard spell on a Spell Scroll can be copied into a spellbook. When a spell is copied in this way, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 plus the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell is copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the Spell Scroll is destroyed.
That distinction was made with a reason. In 2014 rules it says it is as other spells are copied. But they removed that bit specifically. Because now it doesn't reference back to the copy spells rules even at all. It is its entirely own self contained method.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Or they consider the "just as spells in the spellbook" to be implicit and trimmed the extraneous text. It'd be a bit broken if you can find a high level spell scroll and just instantly bash it into your book at no cost, with the benefit well outweighing the loss of a single typically undertuned cast of the spell.
No cost? WDYM. It costs you the scroll. A magic item. That is a cost that is already higher than the one listed for copying a spell from another wizard's book.
Regardless, it is clear that the new rules consider copying a Spell and copying a Scroll as two different things. They have separate rules that don't reference one another. 2014 rules did. 2024 rules don't.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That would be why I said "if you can find", and specifically addressed the comparative value of using/copying a found scroll. And you're welcome to your opinion, even though it's rather tenuous and is more based on splitting hairs of different editions rather than reading the full body of rules for the current edition.
I think the OP actually had the right interpretation: to copy a scroll call for both the cost and time from the PHB and the arcana roll from the DMG. Why. Because they are app,ting to 2 different parts of the process. To write a spell into your spellbook ( from any source - including a scroll) you have to pay the time and costs. Then active scrolls you need to make the arcana check to get your copy nderstanding of the spell correct as you write it down. When copying from a non active source like another wizard’s spellbook you don’t have to make the check because you’re not dealing with a “live” spell. Back in early editions you could actually treat your spellbook as a scroll in emergencies casting a spell from it as a scroll but doing so wiped the spell out of your spellbook. You then needed to find a new copy of it and spend the gold and time to copy it back into the spellbook. Because I continue to use this rule as a homebrew rule in my campaign I will be requiring the arcana check for all efforts to copy spells into a spellbook as all spells in it are technically “live”.
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I also think my original thought is correct: the one that combines the rules on the PHB as well as those on the DMG, the latter being some kind of addendum to the spell scroll rules, although I still maintain it would've made more sense to put it alongside the rest of the rules on the Expanding and Replacing a Spellbook box, because that box mentions a Spell Scroll as a way of finding a Wizard spell. Maybe it was a matter of space, maybe they wanted to keep it the same way as 2014, but for me and my party it was the kind of things we don't notice and, therefore, we didn't implement. We were just copying the scroll into a spellbook and it would dissappear after but there was no Arcana check needed.
On the other hand, there's the opinion that, because they are different rules on different books, they do not apply or relate to each other. The PHB mentions spells that you may find in a very generalised way, but it specifies a Spell Scroll as being one of those. So it is clear that we have to spend time and pay money to copy it, and it makes sense. Losing a Spell Scroll forever is a small price compared to being able to cast that spell everyday, more than once in most cases. The rules on the DMG are just an addendum to the previous rules on Copying a Spell into the Book, which yeah, seems odd and really out of place, but it is the way that makes more sense, to me at least.
Copying a Spell and Copying a Spell Scroll are, in fact, different things, but the first one is more of an umbrella term, referring to many ways in which you can find a addable spell, like:
This has just come up in my current campaign. I have a wizard that picked up a couple scrolls in a dungeon.
For a wizard to copy wizard spells into a wizard book, it seems a pretty steep risk with the arcana check. I could understand an arcana check if a non-wizard (say a cleric) is copying wizard spells into their own spell repository.
I am tempted to rule that for my wizard to copy a darkvision scroll into his book, that the class-specific spell copying rules in the sidebar (5.24 PH pg 167) trump the more general Spell Scroll requirement. IT costs gold and time, but not risk of an DC11 Arcana check.
If the wizard wanted to copy a find traps spell into his book, I would likely require the time, gold, AND the arcana check since tat is not a native wizard spell.
The risk isn't that huge for a typical Wizard setup- INT is almost certainly going to be their main stat, Arcana is a very common pick as a skill, and especially with their getting an Expertise in a knowledge skill at level 2 now they can easily hit +8 to Arcana while still in 1st tier. By the time you're looking at 6th level and higher spells it could be +13. At that point it's literally a 10% chance to fail on a 6th level spell. Obviously this is dependent on a certain degree of optimization, but I suspect the number of main Wizard builds that don't take Arcana are a minority.
And Wizard's cannot copy non-Wizard spells into the book. Their spellbook only interacts with their class list.
As I said in my first reply, that's how I see it too. For me, the PHB and DMG feel like one big book, with interconnected rules.
Just to clarify, the last example ("magical runes on a wall") also follows the rule "2 hours per Spell Level + 50 GP per Spell Level". The same applies if your character finds an ancient tome with Wizard spells or any other non-magical scroll/book containing Wizard spells.
Just to note: The Wizard sidebar about copying spells specifies Spell Scrolls as a potential source where you can find and copy spells. That Spell Scrolls have more specific rules doesn't override the base rule, meaning you absolutely have to spend the gold and still risk it.
Thanks for the responses everyone. I understand the points you all make. But I still see that there is an imbalance that carries a higher risk and cost for the wizard. I have decided that for my campaign, I will try to balance that out a little more. If there is no risk of failure to casting classes preparing spells by prayer or meditation, it should not have a risk for transcription either. I am not sure why there is a distinction between copying from a scroll versus copying from another book or from runes on a wall.
The DMG Spell Scroll discussion lays out risk for casters trying to use scrolls of a higher level than their current skill. I think this can be easily applied to copying similar spells with similar risks for the wizard. The wizard can always wait to copy the higher-level spell until they reach a level where casting that spell would be at no risk.
So I am going with this for now. I can always change my mind later.
We will follow the general 2024 PHB rules for memorizing, preparing, and copying spells and try to balance the risk/reward for all spellcasting classes..
This is how I have been reading it too. The way I have explained it in my games is that a Spell Scroll is a spell that has already been cast and is stored; it doesn't necessarily have all the information on the scroll that is needed to fully understand and reproduce the spell. A Spell Scroll is a fragile container for the spell and in order to copy the spell from it to a Spellbook, the user has to essentially 'break' open the container and quickly reverse engineer the ciphered spell. I don't know if that is RAW from some official book I read in the past, but after reading over the 2024 rules for Scribing Spell Scrolls and copying a Spell Scroll to a Spellbook, it seems like a good narrative that fits within the rules.
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Very true:
This just means you have two options, then. You can either copy the spell from the scroll, by paying gold and spending time. Or. You can roll the arcana check, and consume the scroll, to just copy the scroll into the book. Both have comparable costs/risks.
The entry would look like this if you combined them:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I’m of the old school camp of if you pass the check, then the ability to read but not trigger the scroll spell will allow the time and effort required to copy it to a spell book.
That way, even if you find a higher level scroll that you can’t prep or cast, you could still attempt to pass the check and begin the lengthy process of copying it into your various spell books.( wizards usually don’t have backup books, but I tend to carry a spare just in case. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.