Popping in to say right now we've received clarification that the Sage Advice Compendium is still RAW for 2024 rules that have not been replaced. With regards to the clarifications on weapon attacks and spell attacks, the SAC rulings are still RAW..
For the purpose of discussions in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum, SAC is considered RAW. That has been true since it was published, and the clarification I have received is that is still considered RAW for 2024 rules discussions.
So weapons like daggers can be both a melee weapon OR a ranged weapon depending on how it's used. But it would be redundant and wasteful to list them twice on the weapons chart.
Rules that create exceptions to other rules only change usage in the way they specify, they don't change classification or definitions unless they specifically say so.
So no, a weapon is either a Melee weapon or a Ranged weapon (defined by the chart) and that doesn't change. The Thrown property only allows you to use the weapon to make a ranged attack, it does not re-define the weapon to be a Ranged weapon. In fact the property clearly keeps a Melee weapon as being a Melee weapon because it tells you what modifier to use for the attack/damage rolls if it is a Melee weapon.
The charts are just attempts to simplify and summarize RAW. RAW clearly state: "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
So, for example, a dagger is "either Melee or Ranged".
When a dagger "is used to attack a target within 5 feet" it's a Melee Weapon.
And when a dagger "is used to attack at a greater distance." it's a Ranged Weapon.
It couldn't be any clearer. There's no other way to read that.
And because the charts are limited summaries, the Thrown weapon explanation, for example, has to specify that, if, according to the chart, "the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon." It's obviously exposing the limitations of the chart to address the inherent confusion of the limited charts, otherwise they wouldn't have to even say that. I suppose they could have just listed all the ranged melee weapons twice on the chart, but are trying to keep things simple.
The charts are just attempts to simplify and summarize RAW. RAW clearly state: "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
So, for example, a dagger is "either Melee or Ranged".
When a dagger "is used to attack a target within 5 feet" it's a Melee Weapon.
And when a dagger "is used to attack at a greater distance." it's a Ranged Weapon.
It couldn't be any clearer. There's no other way to read that.
And because the charts are limited summaries, the Thrown weapon explanation, for example, has to specify that, if, according to the chart, "the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon." It's obviously exposing the limitations of the chart to address the inherent confusion of the limited charts, otherwise they wouldn't have to even say that. I suppose they could have just listed all the ranged melee weapons twice on the chart, but are trying to keep things simple.
This is a bad faith argument. Twisting the section that gives a generalized description of melee and ranged weapons to try to use a feat wrong is not RAW. By this logic shooting a crossbow or bow at an enemy within 5 feet make them a melee weapon, which begs the question why are there rules for making a ranged attack within 5 ft of an enemy if it's a melee weapon attack. To continue the goofiness of this interpretation a longsword wielded by a bugbear is a ranged weapon and an elemental warrior monks fists are ranged weapons. Using the section describing the general function of the different weapon classifications to deny the classification that the rules give you is silly.
Edit: to compare apples to apples the claim is that the thrown property makes a melee weapon a ranged weapon because a ranged weapon is used to attack outside 5 ft. Then any weapon with the reach property is a ranged weapon; whips, glaives, lances, halberds, all ranged weapons when you attack at 10 ft regardless of any other feature. That doesn't make sense and is not RAW or RAI.
So, for example, a dagger is "either Melee or Ranged".
When a dagger "is used to attack a target within 5 feet" it's a Melee Weapon.
And when a dagger "is used to attack at a greater distance." it's a Ranged Weapon.
This isn't accurate. A dagger is a simple melee weapon and is always a melee weapon. It just happens to have the thrown property that allows you to make a ranged attack with it. That doesn't change the weapons type
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.
If melee weapons became ranged weapons when thrown, the second underlined sentence would cease to make sense as the weapon in question could never be a melee weapon when thrown.
I disagree. I think it tightens up the terminology and reduces confusion. It just so happens that thrown melee weapons are a casualty of this clarification.
Does the Archery fighting style work with a melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feature benefits ranged weapons. A melee weapon, such as a dagger or handaxe, is still a melee weapon when you make a ranged attack with it.
No, the Archery feat benefits only attack rolls you make with Ranged weapons. The Thrown Weapon Fighting feat benefits ranged attack rolls made with Melee weapons with the Thrown property.
I wanted to pop in to clarify my reading of this discussion: any debate on the matter only applies to Firing in Melee and Long Shots, right? It seems as though the wording of Bypass Cover being "Your ranged attacks with [unspecified] weapons" ensures it works regardless of this debate, right? And the Firing in Melee section is moot anyway since why would you throw a ranged melee weapon in melee range.
Even from a flavor perspective, if that's where it all lands it makes sense. I think the point someone made of a thrown weapon massively diminishing its killing power past its normal range makes sense, while the idea of being so precise that an ally standing in the way or the target being mostly behind cover doesn't affect you, and that would apply to anything ranged.
Anyway, point being, for thrown weapons it sounds like: Bypass Cover: works Firing in Melee: doesn't work (probably) and doesn't matter Long Shots: doesn't work (probably)
I wanted to pop in to clarify my reading of this discussion: any debate on the matter only applies to Firing in Melee and Long Shots, right? It seems as though the wording of Bypass Cover being "Your ranged attacks with [unspecified] weapons" ensures it works regardless of this debate, right? And the Firing in Melee section is moot anyway since why would you throw a ranged melee weapon in melee range.
Even from a flavor perspective, if that's where it all lands it makes sense. I think the point someone made of a thrown weapon massively diminishing its killing power past its normal range makes sense, while the idea of being so precise that an ally standing in the way or the target being mostly behind cover doesn't affect you, and that would apply to anything ranged.
Anyway, point being, for thrown weapons it sounds like: Bypass Cover: works Firing in Melee: doesn't work (probably) and doesn't matter Long Shots: (doesn't work (probably)
Have I got that right?
That’s correct. “Ranged attacks with weapons” includes any ranged attack made with any weapon. It doesn’t include ranged spell attacks that don’t involve weapons (e.g. Eldritch Blast) or melee attacks made with ranged weapons (e.g. smacking someone with a crossbow).
I wanted to pop in to clarify my reading of this discussion: any debate on the matter only applies to Firing in Melee and Long Shots, right? It seems as though the wording of Bypass Cover being "Your ranged attacks with [unspecified] weapons" ensures it works regardless of this debate, right?
Hm. Yeah, that appears correct. No idea if it's intended, it didn't work in 2014.
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Sure, but it's not a part of the rules that has changed in any meaningful way.
Regarding the Sage Advice Compendium and how to use it for now until there is an update:
The charts are just attempts to simplify and summarize RAW. RAW clearly state: "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
So, for example, a dagger is "either Melee or Ranged".
When a dagger "is used to attack a target within 5 feet" it's a Melee Weapon.
And when a dagger "is used to attack at a greater distance." it's a Ranged Weapon.
It couldn't be any clearer. There's no other way to read that.
And because the charts are limited summaries, the Thrown weapon explanation, for example, has to specify that, if, according to the chart, "the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon." It's obviously exposing the limitations of the chart to address the inherent confusion of the limited charts, otherwise they wouldn't have to even say that. I suppose they could have just listed all the ranged melee weapons twice on the chart, but are trying to keep things simple.
This is a bad faith argument. Twisting the section that gives a generalized description of melee and ranged weapons to try to use a feat wrong is not RAW. By this logic shooting a crossbow or bow at an enemy within 5 feet make them a melee weapon, which begs the question why are there rules for making a ranged attack within 5 ft of an enemy if it's a melee weapon attack. To continue the goofiness of this interpretation a longsword wielded by a bugbear is a ranged weapon and an elemental warrior monks fists are ranged weapons. Using the section describing the general function of the different weapon classifications to deny the classification that the rules give you is silly.
Edit: to compare apples to apples the claim is that the thrown property makes a melee weapon a ranged weapon because a ranged weapon is used to attack outside 5 ft. Then any weapon with the reach property is a ranged weapon; whips, glaives, lances, halberds, all ranged weapons when you attack at 10 ft regardless of any other feature. That doesn't make sense and is not RAW or RAI.
This isn't accurate. A dagger is a simple melee weapon and is always a melee weapon. It just happens to have the thrown property that allows you to make a ranged attack with it. That doesn't change the weapons type
If melee weapons became ranged weapons when thrown, the second underlined sentence would cease to make sense as the weapon in question could never be a melee weapon when thrown.
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I disagree. I think it tightens up the terminology and reduces confusion. It just so happens that thrown melee weapons are a casualty of this clarification.
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The answer was updated in the 2024 SAC:
I wanted to pop in to clarify my reading of this discussion: any debate on the matter only applies to Firing in Melee and Long Shots, right? It seems as though the wording of Bypass Cover being "Your ranged attacks with [unspecified] weapons" ensures it works regardless of this debate, right? And the Firing in Melee section is moot anyway since why would you throw a ranged melee weapon in melee range.
Even from a flavor perspective, if that's where it all lands it makes sense. I think the point someone made of a thrown weapon massively diminishing its killing power past its normal range makes sense, while the idea of being so precise that an ally standing in the way or the target being mostly behind cover doesn't affect you, and that would apply to anything ranged.
Anyway, point being, for thrown weapons it sounds like:
Bypass Cover: works
Firing in Melee: doesn't work (probably) and doesn't matter
Long Shots: doesn't work (probably)
Have I got that right?
That’s correct. “Ranged attacks with weapons” includes any ranged attack made with any weapon. It doesn’t include ranged spell attacks that don’t involve weapons (e.g. Eldritch Blast) or melee attacks made with ranged weapons (e.g. smacking someone with a crossbow).
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Hm. Yeah, that appears correct. No idea if it's intended, it didn't work in 2014.