Hey, I'm hungry so I thought I'd re-open a can of worms (yummy!) in hopes of getting fresh opinions and perhaps even a Sage Advice ruling on the topic in the thread title.
There's been a little bit of debate about it in the Cleric Subforum already but now more people have had more time with the rules has anyone come up with a solid ruling?
Level 10: Divine Intervention
You can call on your deity or pantheon to intervene on your behalf. As a Magic action, choose any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn’t require a Reaction to cast. As part of the same action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing Material components. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.
Given this feature allows casting of spells such as Prayer of Healing which has a 10 minute casting time what is the intended outcome here? Two different readings I've seen:
The spell takes effect instantly with your chosen Deity casting it on your behalf OR
You begin casting the spell normally but must concentrate and continue taking the magic action on your turn to keep casting the spell
The text of the Divine Intervention/Greater Divine Intervention doesn't call out specific casting time modifications to spells so do the general spellcasting rules apply?
As part of the same action, you cast that spell
This section could easily be read with cast being present or past tense.
Thoughts (and prayers? (I'm funny dammit!)) on this? I'm more inclined to the first reading personally as it feels more 'divine' but keen to hear other opinions and as mentioned hopefully a Sage Advice clarification!
My interpretation of the feature is that the spell takes effect immediately as part of that Magic action and doesn't follow the normal rules for casting time. This would apply to a spell that normally requires a Bonus Action, like holy weapon, as much as it would a spell that normally takes 24 hours like hallow
I also don't see any cleric spells in that range that would become horribly broken if they went off right away via Divine Intervention
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's the DM's choice. If s/he feels it's more thematic for your deity to make the spell quicker, then that's what'll happen. If not, then you'll cast it with the usual casting time.
There shouldn't really be an argument on this because it falls solely to interpretation.
I interpret as part of the Magic action from Divine Intervention , you cast any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn’t require a Reaction to cast, Longer Casting Time thus not excluded.
I agree with Divine Intervention bypassing casting time because Exceptions Supersede General Rules. And I'd say the same logic should apply to Wish, the example Plaguescarred gave with Wild Companion, or Pact of the Chain.
A spell effect comes after casting, not during. For example, a spell such as Animate Dead takes 1 minute to cast after which it's effect is Instantaneous.
My interpretation of the feature is that the spell takes effect immediately as part of that Magic action and doesn't follow the normal rules for casting time. This would apply to a spell that normally requires a Bonus Action, like holy weapon, as much as it would a spell that normally takes 24 hours like hallow
I also don't see any cleric spells in that range that would become horribly broken if they went off right away via Divine Intervention
I agree with your interpretation. And while I don’t know that it “horribly” broken. A mid-combat prayer of healing — the whole party getting a short rest and 2d8 hp — is crazy strong.
Why? Because that's an argument I've seen online and I'm seeking clarification!
You cast the spell, concentrate and continue to take the magic action each turn to keep casting a 10 min spell (an actual argument I've seen!)
You cast the spell. As in the spell takes effect instantly depsite casting time.
Different tenses, different interpretations.
I have a feeling it's the latter that's intended however.
I think the confusion came from the fact that the verb in both of those sentences is in the same tense (present). However, I agree that the latter interpretation is the one that's clearly what's intended.
Nowere in the description say that the time of the cast should be ignore, only the spell slot and the material comp. I just don't see why this interpretation could be
Nowere in the description say that the time of the cast should be ignore, only the spell slot and the material comp. I just don't see why this interpretation could be
Nowere in the description say that the time of the cast should be ignore, only the spell slot and the material comp. I just don't see why this interpretation could be
It says “As a Magic action, choose any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn’t require a Reaction to cast. As part of that same action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing material components.”
The relevant part is “as part of that same action, you cast the spell.” It doesn’t say you start casting the spell. It says you cast the spell. As part of the same action.
Yes, but what exactly “cast” means isn’t particularly obvious. However, from the Casting a Spell section of that PHB we have
“Casting Time
Most spells require the Magic action to cast, but some spells require a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or 1 minute or more. A spell’s Casting Time entry specifies which of those is required.”
Taken together, it seems like the “as a part of the same Action” overrides casting time, but it really could use an explicit ruling because I can kind of see a case for someone arguing that Casting Time modifies Divine Intervention instead.
And frankly either way they should probably have set a material component gp cap of like 250 on it so a DM doesn’t have to pretty much go out of their way to make player deaths from combat stick.
Nowere in the description say that the time of the cast should be ignore, only the spell slot and the material comp. I just don't see why this interpretation could be
It says “As a Magic action, choose any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn’t require a Reaction to cast. As part of that same action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing material components.”
The relevant part is “as part of that same action, you cast the spell.” It doesn’t say you start casting the spell. It says you cast the spell. As part of the same action.
Taken together, it seems like the “as a part of the same Action” overrides casting time, but it really could use an explicit ruling because I can kind of see a case for someone arguing that Casting Time modifies Divine Intervention instead.
I still don't see why, the description is "you CAST the spell"
And still, spells with more then a Magic action to cast still need the Magic action
"Certain spells—including a spell cast as a Ritual—require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. While you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 minute or more, you must take the Magic action on each of your turns, and you must maintain Concentration while you do so. If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. To cast the spell again, you must start over." (DMG. pág. 236)
1- Any where in the description say that part is out
2- Cast as part of the same action is to PC doesn't need one more action, or a Bonus action, to do the Magic action
Because DI says casting the spell is a part of the Magic Action used for the feature, which in conjunction with how the Casting Time section is written seems to create an order of operations of Magic Action -> Casting Time -> Divine Intervention effect resulting in a single action to get the effect.
1- Any where in the description say that part is out
Yes. The part where it says that you cast the spell as part of the same action that you used to invoke Divine Intervention.
As always with things like this, it's important to ask: if the intent was for the spell to take its normal casting time instead, would they have worded it the way that they did?
1- Any where in the description say that part is out
Yes. The part where it says that you cast the spell as part of the same action that you used to invoke Divine Intervention.
As always with things like this, it's important to ask: if the intent was for the spell to take its normal casting time instead, would they have worded it the way that they did?
At the same, there is the point that if they'd intended for all spells to take one Action, would they not have spelled it out more explicitly? I do think that's how it works, but specifically addressing the question of casting time in the feature would have been very helpful.
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Hey, I'm hungry so I thought I'd re-open a can of worms (yummy!) in hopes of getting fresh opinions and perhaps even a Sage Advice ruling on the topic in the thread title.
There's been a little bit of debate about it in the Cleric Subforum already but now more people have had more time with the rules has anyone come up with a solid ruling?
(PHB 2024 Link)
Given this feature allows casting of spells such as Prayer of Healing which has a 10 minute casting time what is the intended outcome here? Two different readings I've seen:
OR
The text of the Divine Intervention/Greater Divine Intervention doesn't call out specific casting time modifications to spells so do the general spellcasting rules apply?
This section could easily be read with cast being present or past tense.
Thoughts (and prayers? (I'm funny dammit!)) on this? I'm more inclined to the first reading personally as it feels more 'divine' but keen to hear other opinions and as mentioned hopefully a Sage Advice clarification!
My interpretation of the feature is that the spell takes effect immediately as part of that Magic action and doesn't follow the normal rules for casting time. This would apply to a spell that normally requires a Bonus Action, like holy weapon, as much as it would a spell that normally takes 24 hours like hallow
I also don't see any cleric spells in that range that would become horribly broken if they went off right away via Divine Intervention
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's the DM's choice. If s/he feels it's more thematic for your deity to make the spell quicker, then that's what'll happen. If not, then you'll cast it with the usual casting time.
There shouldn't really be an argument on this because it falls solely to interpretation.
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Can you please explain the second view in more detail? I don't understand how it being in the past would make it more than one action.
I interpret as part of the Magic action from Divine Intervention , you cast any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn’t require a Reaction to cast, Longer Casting Time thus not excluded.
Likewise, i don't have Druid using Wild Companion take 1 hour to cast the Find Familiar but instead cast it as Magic action.
Why?
I agree with Divine Intervention bypassing casting time because Exceptions Supersede General Rules. And I'd say the same logic should apply to Wish, the example Plaguescarred gave with Wild Companion, or Pact of the Chain.
Why? Because that's an argument I've seen online and I'm seeking clarification!
You cast the spell, concentrate and continue to take the magic action each turn to keep casting a 10 min spell (an actual argument I've seen!)
You cast the spell. As in the spell takes effect instantly depsite casting time.
Different tenses, different interpretations.
I have a feeling it's the latter that's intended however.
A spell effect comes after casting, not during. For example, a spell such as Animate Dead takes 1 minute to cast after which it's effect is Instantaneous.
I agree with your interpretation. And while I don’t know that it “horribly” broken. A mid-combat prayer of healing — the whole party getting a short rest and 2d8 hp — is crazy strong.
I think the confusion came from the fact that the verb in both of those sentences is in the same tense (present). However, I agree that the latter interpretation is the one that's clearly what's intended.
pronouns: he/she/they
Nowere in the description say that the time of the cast should be ignore, only the spell slot and the material comp. I just don't see why this interpretation could be
It says you cast it as part of the action.
It says “As a Magic action, choose any Cleric spell of level 5 or lower that doesn’t require a Reaction to cast. As part of that same action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing material components.”
The relevant part is “as part of that same action, you cast the spell.” It doesn’t say you start casting the spell. It says you cast the spell. As part of the same action.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yes, but what exactly “cast” means isn’t particularly obvious. However, from the Casting a Spell section of that PHB we have
“Casting Time
Most spells require the Magic action to cast, but some spells require a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or 1 minute or more. A spell’s Casting Time entry specifies which of those is required.”
Taken together, it seems like the “as a part of the same Action” overrides casting time, but it really could use an explicit ruling because I can kind of see a case for someone arguing that Casting Time modifies Divine Intervention instead.
And frankly either way they should probably have set a material component gp cap of like 250 on it so a DM doesn’t have to pretty much go out of their way to make player deaths from combat stick.
You still cast the spell, this isn't change
I still don't see why, the description is "you CAST the spell"
And still, spells with more then a Magic action to cast still need the Magic action
"Certain spells—including a spell cast as a Ritual—require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. While you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 minute or more, you must take the Magic action on each of your turns, and you must maintain Concentration while you do so. If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. To cast the spell again, you must start over." (DMG. pág. 236)
1- Any where in the description say that part is out
2- Cast as part of the same action is to PC doesn't need one more action, or a Bonus action, to do the Magic action
Because DI says casting the spell is a part of the Magic Action used for the feature, which in conjunction with how the Casting Time section is written seems to create an order of operations of Magic Action -> Casting Time -> Divine Intervention effect resulting in a single action to get the effect.
Yes. The part where it says that you cast the spell as part of the same action that you used to invoke Divine Intervention.
As always with things like this, it's important to ask: if the intent was for the spell to take its normal casting time instead, would they have worded it the way that they did?
pronouns: he/she/they
At the same, there is the point that if they'd intended for all spells to take one Action, would they not have spelled it out more explicitly? I do think that's how it works, but specifically addressing the question of casting time in the feature would have been very helpful.