When I use True Strike with a [wprop]Cleave[/spells] weapon and hit, how do I use to resolve the additional attack from Cleave?
I don't see how True Strike would interact with Cleave at all apart from allowing Cleave to trigger (as long as your attack uses a melee attack roll that is).
When I use True Strike with a [wprop]Cleave[/spells] weapon and hit, how do I use to resolve the additional attack from Cleave?
I don't see how True Strike would interact with Cleave at all apart from allowing Cleave to trigger (as long as your attack uses a melee attack roll that is).
I don't feel like it is clear cut whether Cleave would use the normal attack bonus or the True Strike attack bonus. The same is true for the weapon damage. True Strike is an exception modifying the normal attack rules and Cleave is an exception to the number of attacks. If Cleave turns True Strike's one attack with a weapon used in the spell's casting into two attacks, why would the second attack have a different attack and damage (apart from not applying the attribute bonus to the damage)?
...why would the second attack have a different attack and damage
Can you answer why it would have the same? Doesn't true strike only work once? Isn't Cleave a 2nd attack? You have to roll to hit, so this is not "one attack" but a second one.
True Strike allows you to make one attack and applies to that. The cleave attack could be proc'ed from the True Strike attack, but would not benefit from the benefits of True Strike.
. . . Cleave is an exception to the number of attacks. If Cleave turns True Strike's one attack with a weapon used in the spell's casting into two attacks . . .
It's best not to think of it like that. Cleave does not turn one attack into two attacks. Cleave is its own thing that is triggered when certain prerequisites are met and you follow the rules that are listed in its description.
If your character has a feature that allows him to use the Cleave weapon mastery property and you wield a Cleave weapon during your True Strike (an instantaneous duration spell which provides one attack), then you have a chance of triggering the Cleave feature as a result of that first attack. That first attack must hit a creature with a melee attack roll using that Cleave weapon.
If all of those above prerequisites are met, then you follow the rules of the Cleave weapon mastery. By then, True Strike has already fully resolved. The next thing that happens is:
". . . you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach. On a hit, the second creature takes the weapon’s damage, but don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative."
This is just a regular attack with a regular weapon with slightly reduced regular damage.
True Strike allows you to make one attack and applies to that. The cleave attack could be proc'ed from the True Strike attack, but would not benefit from the benefits of True Strike.
This. True strike has nothing to say about any extra attacks you might get because you made the TS attack, so they default to the normal rules.
In practice, it's not really a big deal, and simplifies your rolling, if the DM lets you use your caster stat for hit and damage on the cleave attack, but the TS damage shouldn't be re-applied, and that's firmly a house rule.
. . . Cleave is an exception to the number of attacks. If Cleave turns True Strike's one attack with a weapon used in the spell's casting into two attacks . . .
It's best not to think of it like that. Cleave does not turn one attack into two attacks. Cleave is its own thing that is triggered when certain prerequisites are met and you follow the rules that are listed in its description.
If your character has a feature that allows him to use the Cleave weapon mastery property and you wield a Cleave weapon during your True Strike (an instantaneous duration spell which provides one attack), then you have a chance of triggering the Cleave feature as a result of that first attack. That first attack must hit a creature with a melee attack roll using that Cleave weapon.
If all of those above prerequisites are met, then you follow the rules of the Cleave weapon mastery. By then, True Strike has already fully resolved. The next thing that happens is:
". . . you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach. On a hit, the second creature takes the weapon’s damage, but don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative."
This is just a regular attack with a regular weapon with slightly reduced regular damage.
Since Cleave is not called out as a separate action, it is part of the same action and you are still under the effects of the True Strike spell. It might still be that the triggered melee attack is a standard weapon attack, but I feel like it is worded to explicitly support carrying over a melee spell attack with a weapon (which is not what True Strike does) triggering an extra melee spell attack.
Being part of the action doesn't have to mean carrying over the special properties of the action but should it in this case?
Since Cleave is not called out as a separate action, it is part of the same action and you are still under the effects of the True Strike spell. It might still be that the triggered melee attack is a standard weapon attack, but I feel like it is worded to explicitly support carrying over a melee spell attack with a weapon (which is not what True Strike does) triggering an extra melee spell attack.
Being part of the action doesn't have to mean carrying over the special properties of the action but should it in this case?
Nah, none of this works like that. Cleave is its own thing, it's not part of any previous action. Generally, a feature would have to explicitly declare that it becomes part of another action for it to function that way. The Nick mastery is an example of that -- it explicitly declares that the attack that it's describing can be made as part of the Attack action (which is when the possibility of being able to make a Nick attack is triggered). Cleave is a triggered attack, sort of like an Opportunity Attack, but it doesn't cost you any action economy such as a Reaction or anything. It's just a Feature that has its own rules and does exactly what it says and no more.
True Strike is an Instantaneous Duration spell. Once the effects that are described within its spell description are fully resolved that spell ends. Sequentially, the attack from True Strike might trigger a Cleave attack if the requirements within the Cleave Feature are met, but that has nothing to do with True Strike at that point. It's just a trigger for Cleave.
EDIT: Note that even if the True Strike spell had a longer duration where it allowed you to make an attack every round, for example, these attacks still would not interact in the way that you are thinking. Even if the spell was ongoing, the result of any individual attack within that spell is just a trigger for the Cleave feature. Nothing about the spell "carries over" to what the Cleave feature says that it does. An attack happens however it happens. If certain prerequisites are met, Cleave is triggered and you do what the Cleave feature says.
There is nothing about the True Strike spell or the Cleave Feature which will "support carrying over a melee spell attack with a weapon . . . triggering an extra melee spell attack". Cleave is never a spell attack.
In 2014, the game used to use a term called "melee weapon attack" which was mutually exclusive with "melee spell attack". Each category referred to pretty much what you would expect. In 2024, the term "melee weapon attack" isn't really used any more, but that category of attacks still exists -- the game mostly just refers to those as a "melee attack with a weapon" now.
The Cleave feature states: " you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature . . ." That's never a spell attack. That's literally just wielding an actual weapon to make an attack with it. You also can't satisfy this by casting a spell that results in a weapon attack -- the Cleave feature doesn't say that you can cast a spell in response to the trigger, it just says that you can make the attack roll.
As commented in a recent thread, I'm ruling that Cleave isn't part of any main Action (e.g. Attack, Dash, Magic, or others), Bonus Action, or Reaction, basically because it's not explicitly stated.
Nah, none of this works like that. Cleave is its own thing, it's not part of any previous action. Generally, a feature would have to explicitly declare that it becomes part of another action for it to function that way. The Nick mastery is an example of that -- it explicitly declares that the attack that it's describing can be made as part of the Attack action (which is when the possibility of being able to make a Nick attack is triggered). Cleave is a triggered attack, sort of like an Opportunity Attack, but it doesn't cost you any action economy such as a Reaction or anything. It's just a Feature that has its own rules and does exactly what it says and no more.
No, none of that works that way.
Light gives you an attack later in the turn as a Bonus Action. Nick modifies Light to remove the Bonus Action, change "later in the turn" to during the Attack action, and restrict the attack to once per turn. Nick is an invalid comparison. Opportunity attacks explicitly are part of a Reaction. Divine Smite is a Bonus Action. Anything that is the result of an action and not part of that action is explicitly stated as such.
Anything triggered by something during an action that is not part of the action is called as part of a Bonus Action or Reaction. Assuming you have two attacks, it doesn't matter if you Attack action attack, Cleave attack, and Attack action attack or if you Attack action attack, Attack action attack, and then Cleave attack, it is all part of the same Attack action. There is no rule saying that it outside of the action, but it is part of resolving the attack you just made with a Cleave weapon.
When we are dealing with True Strike, it is part of the same Magic action (unless certain classes are casting it as part another action).
EDIT: Note that even if the True Strike spell had a longer duration where it allowed you to make an attack every round, for example, these attacks still would not interact in the way that you are thinking. Even if the spell was ongoing, the result of any individual attack within that spell is just a trigger for the Cleave feature. Nothing about the spell "carries over" to what the Cleave feature says that it does. An attack happens however it happens. If certain prerequisites are met, Cleave is triggered and you do what the Cleave feature says.
To change the spell for argument's sake, this sounds like you are saying that if we could cast Shillelagh on a Cleave weapon, Shillelagh's effects wouldn't apply to the Cleave attack but maybe you are envisioning an ongoing True Strike differently.
The Cleave feature states: " you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature . . ." That's never a spell attack. That's literally just wielding an actual weapon to make an attack with it. You also can't satisfy this by casting a spell that results in a weapon attack -- the Cleave feature doesn't say that you can cast a spell in response to the trigger, it just says that you can make the attack roll.
That's fair but I was off on a tangent. True Strike is never a spell attack. TarodNet will probably chime in about how that's debated, but it's a spell that affects the caster and they make an attack with the weapon used in the casting. Logically, it makes sense as a follow through attack to carry over the attack properties of the first attack, but mechanically is it supported? As a GM, I can always say yea or nay, but I do want to give it proper consideration first.
When I use True Strike with a Cleave weapon and hit, how do I use to resolve the additional attack from Cleave?
Is the spellcasting attribute to hit with either the normal weapon damage or radiant damage?
Edited to correct tooltip.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I don't see how True Strike would interact with Cleave at all apart from allowing Cleave to trigger (as long as your attack uses a melee attack roll that is).
I don't feel like it is clear cut whether Cleave would use the normal attack bonus or the True Strike attack bonus. The same is true for the weapon damage. True Strike is an exception modifying the normal attack rules and Cleave is an exception to the number of attacks. If Cleave turns True Strike's one attack with a weapon used in the spell's casting into two attacks, why would the second attack have a different attack and damage (apart from not applying the attribute bonus to the damage)?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Can you answer why it would have the same? Doesn't true strike only work once? Isn't Cleave a 2nd attack? You have to roll to hit, so this is not "one attack" but a second one.
True Strike allows you to make one attack and applies to that. The cleave attack could be proc'ed from the True Strike attack, but would not benefit from the benefits of True Strike.
It's best not to think of it like that. Cleave does not turn one attack into two attacks. Cleave is its own thing that is triggered when certain prerequisites are met and you follow the rules that are listed in its description.
If your character has a feature that allows him to use the Cleave weapon mastery property and you wield a Cleave weapon during your True Strike (an instantaneous duration spell which provides one attack), then you have a chance of triggering the Cleave feature as a result of that first attack. That first attack must hit a creature with a melee attack roll using that Cleave weapon.
If all of those above prerequisites are met, then you follow the rules of the Cleave weapon mastery. By then, True Strike has already fully resolved. The next thing that happens is:
". . . you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach. On a hit, the second creature takes the weapon’s damage, but don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative."
This is just a regular attack with a regular weapon with slightly reduced regular damage.
This. True strike has nothing to say about any extra attacks you might get because you made the TS attack, so they default to the normal rules.
In practice, it's not really a big deal, and simplifies your rolling, if the DM lets you use your caster stat for hit and damage on the cleave attack, but the TS damage shouldn't be re-applied, and that's firmly a house rule.
First, thanks for going down this thought exercise with me. I lean towards using the standard weapon properties, but I am not certain it is correct.
Since Cleave is not called out as a separate action, it is part of the same action and you are still under the effects of the True Strike spell. It might still be that the triggered melee attack is a standard weapon attack, but I feel like it is worded to explicitly support carrying over a melee spell attack with a weapon (which is not what True Strike does) triggering an extra melee spell attack.
Being part of the action doesn't have to mean carrying over the special properties of the action but should it in this case?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Nah, none of this works like that. Cleave is its own thing, it's not part of any previous action. Generally, a feature would have to explicitly declare that it becomes part of another action for it to function that way. The Nick mastery is an example of that -- it explicitly declares that the attack that it's describing can be made as part of the Attack action (which is when the possibility of being able to make a Nick attack is triggered). Cleave is a triggered attack, sort of like an Opportunity Attack, but it doesn't cost you any action economy such as a Reaction or anything. It's just a Feature that has its own rules and does exactly what it says and no more.
True Strike is an Instantaneous Duration spell. Once the effects that are described within its spell description are fully resolved that spell ends. Sequentially, the attack from True Strike might trigger a Cleave attack if the requirements within the Cleave Feature are met, but that has nothing to do with True Strike at that point. It's just a trigger for Cleave.
EDIT: Note that even if the True Strike spell had a longer duration where it allowed you to make an attack every round, for example, these attacks still would not interact in the way that you are thinking. Even if the spell was ongoing, the result of any individual attack within that spell is just a trigger for the Cleave feature. Nothing about the spell "carries over" to what the Cleave feature says that it does. An attack happens however it happens. If certain prerequisites are met, Cleave is triggered and you do what the Cleave feature says.
There is nothing about the True Strike spell or the Cleave Feature which will "support carrying over a melee spell attack with a weapon . . . triggering an extra melee spell attack". Cleave is never a spell attack.
In 2014, the game used to use a term called "melee weapon attack" which was mutually exclusive with "melee spell attack". Each category referred to pretty much what you would expect. In 2024, the term "melee weapon attack" isn't really used any more, but that category of attacks still exists -- the game mostly just refers to those as a "melee attack with a weapon" now.
The Cleave feature states: " you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature . . ." That's never a spell attack. That's literally just wielding an actual weapon to make an attack with it. You also can't satisfy this by casting a spell that results in a weapon attack -- the Cleave feature doesn't say that you can cast a spell in response to the trigger, it just says that you can make the attack roll.
As commented in a recent thread, I'm ruling that Cleave isn't part of any main Action (e.g. Attack, Dash, Magic, or others), Bonus Action, or Reaction, basically because it's not explicitly stated.
Not everyone agrees with this:
No, none of that works that way.
Light gives you an attack later in the turn as a Bonus Action. Nick modifies Light to remove the Bonus Action, change "later in the turn" to during the Attack action, and restrict the attack to once per turn. Nick is an invalid comparison. Opportunity attacks explicitly are part of a Reaction. Divine Smite is a Bonus Action. Anything that is the result of an action and not part of that action is explicitly stated as such.
Anything triggered by something during an action that is not part of the action is called as part of a Bonus Action or Reaction. Assuming you have two attacks, it doesn't matter if you Attack action attack, Cleave attack, and Attack action attack or if you Attack action attack, Attack action attack, and then Cleave attack, it is all part of the same Attack action. There is no rule saying that it outside of the action, but it is part of resolving the attack you just made with a Cleave weapon.
When we are dealing with True Strike, it is part of the same Magic action (unless certain classes are casting it as part another action).
To change the spell for argument's sake, this sounds like you are saying that if we could cast Shillelagh on a Cleave weapon, Shillelagh's effects wouldn't apply to the Cleave attack but maybe you are envisioning an ongoing True Strike differently.
That's fair but I was off on a tangent. True Strike is never a spell attack. TarodNet will probably chime in about how that's debated, but it's a spell that affects the caster and they make an attack with the weapon used in the casting. Logically, it makes sense as a follow through attack to carry over the attack properties of the first attack, but mechanically is it supported? As a GM, I can always say yea or nay, but I do want to give it proper consideration first.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.