If a creature casts wall of force around a target, is there any spells that can get through. For example if a player wanted to viciously mock a creature on the inside of the wall. Could a creature outside of the wall, cast counterspell on a creature on the inside?
Wall of force. Looks like it doesn't block anything that doesn't have to physically go from point A to point B in the conventional fashion. Counterspell therefore works through it.
Vicious mockery. The target must be able to hear the caster, so it depends on whether the wall blocks sound and completely surrounds the caster or the target.
Anything behind the wall is going to have total cover, and spells can't target anything behind total cover unless the spell says so. That rules out counterspell and vicious mockery.
In practice it's mainly spells like misty step (which targets the caster) or dimension door (which lets you teleport anywhere within range) that can bypass wall of force.
To the best of my knowledge, a Wall of Force is Invisible 9or at least highly transparent), to physically s/he may have total cover, but you still of Line-of-Sight.
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You can see through a window and still not hit the person behind it with a stone due to the total cover they have.
You can see through a window and the person can be oblivious to your words due to the sound being unable to pass through the barrier.
----
I recently saw a thread almost identical to this, and it got really messy. As I see it:
Wall of Force is a barrier, an obstacle, a physical interruption from point A to point B thus is considered total cover.
Though it is transparent, line of sight is not a valid argument for targeted spells, due to total cover.
AoE spells which have a physical component, such as Fireball, will manifest on the nearest side of the wall to the caster.
Spells that require only that the target be able to see the effect/spell will work (Hypnotic Pattern)
Spells that require a target to hear the spell might not work if the Wall of Force completely surrounds the creature. (Dome or Cube rather than a long wall)
Some spells will have specific descriptions that will work in/through/around the Wall of Force (Disintegrate, Teleport).
Nothing in Wall of Force prevents sound waves from passing through. Being completely enclosed by the wall does not prevent this either. That's just not how sound waves work, as anyone whom has ever lived in an apartment building is likely painfully aware. 😂
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sound passes through it, light pass through it. Spells that targets a location, but do not specically say that they travel to that point, appear at that point, even if inside a fully enclosed wall of force. You can Teleport into and out of a wall of force.
In other words, if you can see the target, you can cast spells at the target if they appear at the target and do not travel to the target.
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Nothing in Wall of Force prevents sound waves from passing through. Being completely enclosed by the wall does not prevent this either. That's just not how sound waves work, as anyone whom has ever lived in an apartment building is likely painfully aware. 😂
I agree, some walls are built better than others, apt buildings are notorious for having "thin walls". However, the morton building I practice martial arts in, you can't hear the 16 students and 3 instructors while you're sitting in the observation room.
Nothing in the description of Wall of Force indicates that it does, or doesn't, block sound. As such it could be argued in favor of both situations. That one is up to the DM as to how they want to handle the situation.
I took the time to read Wall of Force because of this discussion/question and to me it looks like the answer is, it depends on the spell. Just picking two cantrips, Chill Touch says that you create a ghostly, skeletal hand in the space of a creature that you can see within range. Since you can see through the invisible Wall of Force, I'd say that Chill Touch works through it. But Acid Splash says that you hurl a bubble of acid. Since that bubble would hit the Wall of Force without passing through it, Wall of Force would block that spell.
I'd say that Wall of Force is interesting and it isn't a simple wall. It can protect the spell caster who casts it pretty nicely or it can entrap an opponent whose attacks are entirely physical pretty nicely. But using it to entrap another spell caster might help that opponent instead of hindering them.
Sound passes through it, light pass through it. Spells that targets a location, but do not specically say that they travel to that point, appear at that point, even if inside a fully enclosed wall of force. You can Teleport into and out of a wall of force.
In other words, if you can see the target, you can cast spells at the target if they appear at the target and do not travel to the target.
Ray of Frost, travels as a beam from your finger to the target, it specifically says that it travels to a point. Stinking Cloud does not travel to a point, it appears at a location. By your ruling Stinking Cloud could bypass the Wall of Force.
However, Wall of Force is a physical object that is between the two creatures. This physical object provides Total Cover for the two creatures. When an AoE spell is cast and there is a physical barrier, like a wall between the two creatures, the AoE originates on the side of the barrier nearest the caster.
Teleport works because the caster is no longer a physical object and you don't need to see the location that you are teleporting to. The same applies to Dimension Door, you don't have to see the location you are trying to reach, and you are no longer a physical object on the prime material or etheral planes.
If you cast Stinking Cloud outside the wall of force, then the effects of the spell cannot pass within. If you cast the spell so the target location is within the wall of force, then it will function normally but cannot spread beyond the confines of the wall of force.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
If you cast Stinking Cloud outside the wall of force, then the effects of the spell cannot pass within. If you cast the spell so the target location is within the wall of force, then it will function normally but cannot spread beyond the confines of the wall of force.
How?
PHB 204
A Clear Path to the Target To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
According to this quote from the phb what you just described cannot happen. Wall of Force, it is total cover, an obstruction, and between you and that point, it cannot originate inside the Wall of Force.
You create a 20-foot-radius sphere of yellow, nauseating gas centered on a point within range. The cloud spreads around corners, and its area is heavily obscured. The cloud lingers in the air for the duration.
You can create the stinking cloud exactly where you want it. You don't even have to see the point, just specify that point within range.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
So by that logic a target sitting in the throne room of a castle could, using feats, be consumed by Stinking Cloud which you cast from OUTSIDE of the castle?
As to the "Light passes through it" argument, try this:
Ray of Frost: "A frigid beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range."
Does this mean that Wall of Force doesn't stop Ray of Frost because it's light?
If the answer is yes, then any/all Ray spells can bypass Wall of Force.
Stinking Cloud targets a space within 90 ft of the caster. By the rules of targeting you cannot target a point/creature/whatever that is behind total cover.
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
Trying to cast Stinking Cloud at an area behind Total Cover will only result in the cloud appearing on the nearer side of the wall.
The key is "where is the target?". A spell like Dimension Door works because the target is the caster. Even Misty Step works because again the target is the caster, and you can see the space you're going to (the wall is invisible). Stinking Cloud doesn't because the target is the space behind the wall (which grants total cover, thus preventing targeting).
It is worth highlighting that cover does not require something that blocks line of sight. Cover is any form of protective obstacle: a wall of force that completely covers the space/object/creature from you means that thing has total cover from you, regardless of whether you can still see it or not.
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Nothing in Wall of Force prevents sound waves from passing through. Being completely enclosed by the wall does not prevent this either. That's just not how sound waves work, as anyone whom has ever lived in an apartment building is likely painfully aware. 😂
I agree, some walls are built better than others, apt buildings are notorious for having "thin walls". However, the morton building I practice martial arts in, you can't hear the 16 students and 3 instructors while you're sitting in the observation room.
A standard residential "hollow wall" has a 1/2 inch thick gypsum board affixed to each side of 2"x4" wooden studs with no insulation between. The thickness of just the boards is equivalent to four walls of force. The building you practice martial arts in is likely built with two layers of 1/2" gypsum boards on each side of steel studs with the interior space filled by fiberglass insulation. Preventing the transmission of vibrations through a surface is hard.
Nothing in the description of Wall of Force indicates that it does, or doesn't, block sound. As such it could be argued in favor of both situations. That one is up to the DM as to how they want to handle the situation.
Spells do what they say they do. Spells do not do what they do not say that they do. That's not a dig or anything; if a DM wants Wall of Force to block all sound too, okay, but that's the kind of thing that should really be avoided unless they have thoroughly considered all of the implications such a change would have on their campaign.
Also keep in mind that the Silence spell exists explicitly for this purpose. To say that one spell also has the effect of a different spell, without having a single reference to those effects, is a little absurd.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If we want to get all sorts of technical, sound can't pass through the barrier: "Nothing can physically pass through the wall". Sound is a vibration of a physical substance, as such the physical substance can't pass through the wall. With that it would work much like sound dampening, the vibrations negated by the wall, nothing passing through it, no sound is heard. The exception to this being if the wall itself was made to vibrate, the wall would create sound.
It's not so much the Silence spell as it is creatures on opposite sides can't hear each other. Creatures together inside/outside the spell can hear each other.
I wasn't trying to make a fuss about the whole sound thing, heck even in my bullet points I use the term "might not", because there are solid arguments for and against the idea.
If you cast Stinking Cloud outside the wall of force, then the effects of the spell cannot pass within. If you cast the spell so the target location is within the wall of force, then it will function normally but cannot spread beyond the confines of the wall of force.
How?
PHB 204
A Clear Path to the Target To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
According to this quote from the phb what you just described cannot happen. Wall of Force, it is total cover, an obstruction, and between you and that point, it cannot originate inside the Wall of Force.
Sorry, but this one is going to be a little bit of a dig; you're wrong. The designation of the point of origin for an AoE spell is only blocked if there is an obstruction (total cover) AND if you cannot see the location.
Wall of Force is invisible. You can see inside of it. You can absolutely designate an origin within the wall. This is an effective, semi-common method of creating control/kill zones.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sorry, but this one is going to be a little bit of a dig; you're wrong. The designation of the point of origin for an AoE spell is only blocked if there is an obstruction (total cover) AND if you cannot see the location.
Wall of Force is invisible. You can see inside of it. You can absolutely designate an origin within the wall. This is an effective, semi-common method of creating control/kill zones.
That's not a dig, that's a correction, and a very distinct misunderstanding that needs to be pointed out. I will have to concede that, yes, you can indeed cast an AoE spell inside a Wall of Force.
If a creature casts wall of force around a target, is there any spells that can get through. For example if a player wanted to viciously mock a creature on the inside of the wall. Could a creature outside of the wall, cast counterspell on a creature on the inside?
Wall of force. Looks like it doesn't block anything that doesn't have to physically go from point A to point B in the conventional fashion. Counterspell therefore works through it.
Vicious mockery. The target must be able to hear the caster, so it depends on whether the wall blocks sound and completely surrounds the caster or the target.
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Anything behind the wall is going to have total cover, and spells can't target anything behind total cover unless the spell says so. That rules out counterspell and vicious mockery.
In practice it's mainly spells like misty step (which targets the caster) or dimension door (which lets you teleport anywhere within range) that can bypass wall of force.
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To the best of my knowledge, a Wall of Force is Invisible 9or at least highly transparent), to physically s/he may have total cover, but you still of Line-of-Sight.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
You can see through a window and still not hit the person behind it with a stone due to the total cover they have.
You can see through a window and the person can be oblivious to your words due to the sound being unable to pass through the barrier.
----
I recently saw a thread almost identical to this, and it got really messy. As I see it:
Nothing in Wall of Force prevents sound waves from passing through. Being completely enclosed by the wall does not prevent this either. That's just not how sound waves work, as anyone whom has ever lived in an apartment building is likely painfully aware. 😂
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sound passes through it, light pass through it. Spells that targets a location, but do not specically say that they travel to that point, appear at that point, even if inside a fully enclosed wall of force. You can Teleport into and out of a wall of force.
In other words, if you can see the target, you can cast spells at the target if they appear at the target and do not travel to the target.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I agree, some walls are built better than others, apt buildings are notorious for having "thin walls". However, the morton building I practice martial arts in, you can't hear the 16 students and 3 instructors while you're sitting in the observation room.
Nothing in the description of Wall of Force indicates that it does, or doesn't, block sound. As such it could be argued in favor of both situations. That one is up to the DM as to how they want to handle the situation.
I took the time to read Wall of Force because of this discussion/question and to me it looks like the answer is, it depends on the spell. Just picking two cantrips, Chill Touch says that you create a ghostly, skeletal hand in the space of a creature that you can see within range. Since you can see through the invisible Wall of Force, I'd say that Chill Touch works through it. But Acid Splash says that you hurl a bubble of acid. Since that bubble would hit the Wall of Force without passing through it, Wall of Force would block that spell.
I'd say that Wall of Force is interesting and it isn't a simple wall. It can protect the spell caster who casts it pretty nicely or it can entrap an opponent whose attacks are entirely physical pretty nicely. But using it to entrap another spell caster might help that opponent instead of hindering them.
Professional computer geek
Quite correct imo
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Ray of Frost, travels as a beam from your finger to the target, it specifically says that it travels to a point. Stinking Cloud does not travel to a point, it appears at a location. By your ruling Stinking Cloud could bypass the Wall of Force.
However, Wall of Force is a physical object that is between the two creatures. This physical object provides Total Cover for the two creatures. When an AoE spell is cast and there is a physical barrier, like a wall between the two creatures, the AoE originates on the side of the barrier nearest the caster.
Teleport works because the caster is no longer a physical object and you don't need to see the location that you are teleporting to. The same applies to Dimension Door, you don't have to see the location you are trying to reach, and you are no longer a physical object on the prime material or etheral planes.
If you cast Stinking Cloud outside the wall of force, then the effects of the spell cannot pass within. If you cast the spell so the target location is within the wall of force, then it will function normally but cannot spread beyond the confines of the wall of force.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
How?
According to this quote from the phb what you just described cannot happen. Wall of Force, it is total cover, an obstruction, and between you and that point, it cannot originate inside the Wall of Force.
stinking cloud
As per the spell,
You can create the stinking cloud exactly where you want it. You don't even have to see the point, just specify that point within range.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
So by that logic a target sitting in the throne room of a castle could, using feats, be consumed by Stinking Cloud which you cast from OUTSIDE of the castle?
As to the "Light passes through it" argument, try this:
Ray of Frost:
"A frigid beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range."
Does this mean that Wall of Force doesn't stop Ray of Frost because it's light?
If the answer is yes, then any/all Ray spells can bypass Wall of Force.
Stinking Cloud targets a space within 90 ft of the caster. By the rules of targeting you cannot target a point/creature/whatever that is behind total cover.
Basic Rules >> Chapter 10: Spellcasting >> Casting a Spell >> Targets >> A Clear Path To The Target
Trying to cast Stinking Cloud at an area behind Total Cover will only result in the cloud appearing on the nearer side of the wall.
The key is "where is the target?". A spell like Dimension Door works because the target is the caster. Even Misty Step works because again the target is the caster, and you can see the space you're going to (the wall is invisible). Stinking Cloud doesn't because the target is the space behind the wall (which grants total cover, thus preventing targeting).
It is worth highlighting that cover does not require something that blocks line of sight. Cover is any form of protective obstacle: a wall of force that completely covers the space/object/creature from you means that thing has total cover from you, regardless of whether you can still see it or not.
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Wall of Force is 1/4 inch thick.
A standard residential "hollow wall" has a 1/2 inch thick gypsum board affixed to each side of 2"x4" wooden studs with no insulation between. The thickness of just the boards is equivalent to four walls of force. The building you practice martial arts in is likely built with two layers of 1/2" gypsum boards on each side of steel studs with the interior space filled by fiberglass insulation. Preventing the transmission of vibrations through a surface is hard.
Spells do what they say they do. Spells do not do what they do not say that they do. That's not a dig or anything; if a DM wants Wall of Force to block all sound too, okay, but that's the kind of thing that should really be avoided unless they have thoroughly considered all of the implications such a change would have on their campaign.
Also keep in mind that the Silence spell exists explicitly for this purpose. To say that one spell also has the effect of a different spell, without having a single reference to those effects, is a little absurd.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If we want to get all sorts of technical, sound can't pass through the barrier: "Nothing can physically pass through the wall". Sound is a vibration of a physical substance, as such the physical substance can't pass through the wall. With that it would work much like sound dampening, the vibrations negated by the wall, nothing passing through it, no sound is heard. The exception to this being if the wall itself was made to vibrate, the wall would create sound.
It's not so much the Silence spell as it is creatures on opposite sides can't hear each other. Creatures together inside/outside the spell can hear each other.
I wasn't trying to make a fuss about the whole sound thing, heck even in my bullet points I use the term "might not", because there are solid arguments for and against the idea.
Sorry, but this one is going to be a little bit of a dig; you're wrong. The designation of the point of origin for an AoE spell is only blocked if there is an obstruction (total cover) AND if you cannot see the location.
Wall of Force is invisible. You can see inside of it. You can absolutely designate an origin within the wall. This is an effective, semi-common method of creating control/kill zones.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That's not a dig, that's a correction, and a very distinct misunderstanding that needs to be pointed out. I will have to concede that, yes, you can indeed cast an AoE spell inside a Wall of Force.