Also, spirit guardians only allows you to exclude targets you can see. Dropping a Fog Cloud on the party and it's no longer safe to cast (though if previously cast it will not start damaging the other PCs).
As a DM I have a player that is cleaning up with Spirit Guardians.
Any tips for how I can combat the spell or ways to have my enemies attack to limit his impact on fights?
Make sure that you give the cleric some fights where Spirit Guardians gets to be a useful tool, but intersperse it with fights against creatures that are wise to the trick. Controlling where the Cleric is controls where the Aura is. Targetting weak saves, ranged attacks, etc., are great tools for breaking concentration. Something else that comes in handy, AOE spells like Fireball that can possibly break concentration even with the half damage on a save or cause enough damage to the party to at least make the cleric switching for bless. Some additional traps and other sources of damage can sap the HP to the point that the cleric may consider saving some slots to top off.
These are all great options and there are others that can present interesting challenges including ambushes against the rear line after an initial attack sets the front line in a disadvantageous position, like on the wrong side of a Fire Wall or something. Something like this attacks on multiple levels while allowing the cleric to feel like they are still playing the way that they want and reduces the parties resources. Followed up with interruptions preventing long and/or short rests, a party will have to try different things to succeed.
As long as you aren't doing this regularly, the party will get different opportunities to shine, the cleric will still get periodic moments to fulfill the non healbot functions of the class/ subclass that drew them to play cleric, and you'll get to have some fun challenging the party in different ways.
As a DM I would rule that you can force an enemy to move into the area and take damage from that. You can do this with things like thunderwave, repelling blast, or the crusher feat. I would also rule though that you cannot move the effect onto the enemy. The wording of the spell says "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn". To me this says that the creature needs to be the moving thing, not the area of the effect.
Doing this will not allow a player mount up and mow the enemy down but it will allow them to do other clever play things like have their allies push or pull enemies into the area each turn.
As a DM I would rule that you can force an enemy to move into the area and take damage from that. You can do this with things like thunderwave, repelling blast, or the crusher feat. I would also rule though that you cannot move the effect onto the enemy. The wording of the spell says "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn". To me this says that the creature needs to be the moving thing, not the area of the effect.
Doing this will not allow a player mount up and mow the enemy down but it will allow them to do other clever play things like have their allies push or pull enemies into the area each turn.
This is the correct way to rule it and a great example of group synergy.
RAW, according to the rules for how spells and magical effects don’t stack, technically speaking from a purely RAW standpoint, if a hostile creature casts spirit guardians at the same level as the PC, but more recently, then the enemy’s casting would cancel out the PC’s while they overlapped. The whole aura is the ongoing effect of the spell (not just the speed reduction), so the “more potent,” or “more recent” one would overwrite the OG.
RAW, according to the rules for how spells and magical effects don’t stack, technically speaking from a purely RAW standpoint, if a hostile creature casts spirit guardians at the same level as the PC, but more recently, then the enemy’s casting would cancel out the PC’s while they overlapped. The whole aura is the ongoing effect of the spell (not just the speed reduction), so the “more potent,” or “more recent” one would overwrite the OG.
Lol. Beat the cleric with their own medicine. DMs, please don't use this regularly on your parties, but that's a sneaky trick to pull on them.
There is a question of being able to make it so that certain creatures aren't affected and whether that would cause an interaction as stated.
I play in two groups. For two years I have used spirit guardians with our DM and thought I understood the rules explanation. I played Wednesday night and two veteran players were excited when I cast Spirit Guardians because they interpreted the rules different than I have and our mutual DM who DM's both groups. They pointed out that if an enemy does not move away from the spirit guardians they continue to take damage. If this is the case, spirit guardians is probably the best 3rd level spell there is. When I read the following I do not think they are correct: "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw." It seems clear with the: "for the first time" wording, that it only works once. If not, then why cast 4th level guardian of faith? I am certain I am right but would love to be wrong...what do you all think?
Not to jump on this train, but just wanna point out that the operative word you're missing in the spell text is "OR".
"when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn OR starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw."
there are two trigger conditions for the damage: "the creature enters the area for the first time", or "the creature starts its turn [within the area]." Both trigger saves and when applicable, damage, when either condition is met as long as concentration on the spell is maintained within the duration.
However, don't over-value it either. That doesn't make it the best 3rd level spell in the game. The enemy is free to simply leave the radius of the spell and make ranged attacks, or go attack another party member not within the spells range unless something is restraining them. Most of the time you use it more for area denial rather than straight damage. Still a useful control spell.
*Edit* One thing that looks like it's been left out of the discourse too is that the "for the first time" stipulation you cited states that for the first time "on a *turn*" the effect is triggered. That means that every new turn, there is a new opportunity to trigger the spell. If it were only intended to be one use, it would read "when a creature enters the area for the first time or starts its turn there...", but again, the "on a turn" squarely states that this effect is ongoing.
This is not true actually. If the enemy cast their spell and was affecting his allies then maybe it would take over but it would be damaging his allies. If he does not target his allies then his spell is not affecting them and the PC spell still would. Also, it would only take over if it was the same level or higher at least so it would be a bad plan.
That said I would probably rule that the 2 areas of affect for damage purposes would not be in conflict as far as the stacking rules go and I would allow them both to do damage and have separate save rolls.
My reply is to IamSposta and Jhfffan*
* also, if the damage type is necrotic from an evil character I would definitely not count them as overlapping effects.
This is not true actually. If the enemy cast their spell and was affecting his allies then maybe it would take over but it would be damaging his allies. If he does not target his allies then his spell is not affecting them and the PC spell still would. Also, it would only take over if it was the same level or higher at least so it would be a bad plan.
That said I would probably rule that the 2 areas of affect for damage purposes would not be in conflict as far as the stacking rules go and I would allow them both to do damage and have separate save rolls.
My reply is to IamSposta and Jhfffan*
* also, if the damage type is necrotic from an evil character I would definitely not count them as overlapping effects.
That’s not true, the spell’s effect is the actual aura around the caster. The individual creatures affected are irrelevant, the actual area around the caster is the spell’s effect.
I think what combining magical effects means for spirit guardians is that you only take damage from one of them even if in the area of multiple of them, and since any amount of damage is more potent than zero damage, the NPC spirit guardians only interacts in the case where neither caster has excluded a given target.
This does mean that multiple clerics with spirit guardians can't work together to create a zone of death.
I think what combining magical effects means for spirit guardians is that you only take damage from one of them even if in the area of multiple of them, and since any amount of damage is more potent than zero damage, the NPC spirit guardians only interacts in the case where neither caster has excluded a given target.
This does mean that multiple clerics with spirit guardians can't work together to create a zone of death.
Others have argued that the only effect that would have the combining effects apply would be the speed reduction and that the damage does specifically stack. Either way, the actual aura is the spell’s effect, not just the damage or just the speed reduction.
This is not true actually. If the enemy cast their spell and was affecting his allies then maybe it would take over but it would be damaging his allies. If he does not target his allies then his spell is not affecting them and the PC spell still would. Also, it would only take over if it was the same level or higher at least so it would be a bad plan.
That said I would probably rule that the 2 areas of affect for damage purposes would not be in conflict as far as the stacking rules go and I would allow them both to do damage and have separate save rolls.
My reply is to IamSposta and Jhfffan*
* also, if the damage type is necrotic from an evil character I would definitely not count them as overlapping effects.
That’s not true, the spell’s effect is the actual aura around the caster. The individual creatures affected are irrelevant, the actual area around the caster is the spell’s effect.
This was the argument that I was foreseeing would come up. My thought process got interrupted before I was able to flesh it out well, but this argument should be prepared for and addressed if the tactic is going to be used.
Much like magic missile, it’s another spell that gets played differently from RAW, and that’s okay, there’s nothing wrong with that. Playing against RAW is fine if everyone agrees, I have several houserules too, everyone does. But it is RAW. And frankly I’m okay with it as it is a limiting factor on an otherwise overtuned spell.
Others have argued that the only effect that would have the combining effects apply would be the speed reduction and that the damage does specifically stack. Either way, the actual aura is the spell’s effect, not just the damage or just the speed reduction.
Yes, but combining magical effects doesn't disallow overlapping auras. It just means the effects don't stack.
You call forth spirits to protect you. They flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration. If you are good or neutral, their spectral form appears angelic or fey (your choice). If you are evil, they appear fiendish.
When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it. An affected creature's speed is halved in the area, and when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd.
That is the ongoing effect of the spell, right there. Everything else is caused by that effect, but that is the actual effect right there, those spirits in that area. Since the effects of multiple castings of the same spells cannot stack, those spirits from multiple castings of the spell cannot effect the same area. Therefore, wherever the areas of two or more castings of the spell overlap, the rules for multiple ongoing effects kicks in, and wherever they don’t overlap they function normally.
Now, at that point it is up to the DM to determine what constitutes “potency,” but if they just use spell slot level used to cast, and both were cast at 2nd-level, then the more recent one takes precedence. If the more recent one was cast by the hostile and it rolls in like: “Oh yeah!?! 👉 Two can play at that game ‘hero,’ *p’toey* TO ME SPIRITS!!” And then the evil Raiders of the Lost Ark looking spirits come in all 💀 and the PC’s GG spirits are all like 👻 “run away.” Or maybe it’s a more epic battle betwixt G & E, but E came in fresh and jumped G when they weren’t lookin’ like a WWE style run-in and 💥. Before G’s spirits knew it they were up to their 💪 in 455🕳s & 🐊s. 🤷♂️
That is the ongoing effect of the spell, right there. Everything else is caused by that effect, but that is the actual effect right there, those spirits in that area.
No, the effect is slowing and damage at start of turn. You can be targeted by two copies of the same spell at once, it's just the effects that don't stack.
You call forth spirits to protect you. They flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the duration. If you are good or neutral, their spectral form appears angelic or fey (your choice). If you are evil, they appear fiendish.
When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it. An affected creature's speed is halved in the area, and when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd.
That is the ongoing effect of the spell, right there. Everything else is caused by that effect, but that is the actual effect right there, those spirits in that area. Since the effects of multiple castings of the same spells cannot stack, those spirits from multiple castings of the spell cannot effect the same area. Therefore, wherever the areas of two or more castings of the spell overlap, the rules for multiple ongoing effects kicks in, and wherever they don’t overlap they function normally.
Now, at that point it is up to the DM to determine what constitutes “potency,” but if they just use spell slot level used to cast, and both were cast at 2nd-level, then the more recent one takes precedence. If the more recent one was cast by the hostile and it rolls in like: “Oh yeah!?! 👉 Two can play at that game ‘hero,’ *p’toey* TO ME SPIRITS!!” And then the evil Raiders of the Lost Ark looking spirits come in all 💀 and the PC’s GG spirits are all like 👻 “run away.” Or maybe it’s a more epic battle betwixt G & E, but E came in fresh and jumped G when they weren’t lookin’ like a WWE style run-in and 💥. Before G’s spirits knew it they were up to their 💪 in 455🕳s & 🐊s. 🤷♂️
There is one caveat here though. Assuming it's played this way (qualifier to stave off the "Oh No it Don't" arguments), the cleric that casts second will take damage before the cleric who had the spell going, assuming that they are close enough to have each other's spells overlap each cleric. Since the spirits flit around you, you aren't included in the area of effect of the spell, thus the two spells would affect the casters regardless of other circumstances. Since the spell doesn't cause damage to creatures when the aura moves upon them, when the second cleric casts the spell or moves into place, the first cleric won't take damage until the start of their turn. However, if the second cleric moves into the aura of the first cleric, they'll take damage. If they have already cast the spell, they may lose concentration. The sneaky second cleric could knowingly move into the aura, take the damage, and then cast Spirit Guardians, hoping to have matched the same potency as the first and therefore nullifying the aura for their allies.
Of course, it's not necessary to enter into the cleric's aura to negate part of it, but it does provide a larger area of overlap.
That is the ongoing effect of the spell, right there. Everything else is caused by that effect, but that is the actual effect right there, those spirits in that area.
No, the effect is slowing and damage at start of turn. You can be targeted by two copies of the same spell at once, it's just the effects that don't stack.
This is part of what was already argued before. Absolutely everything in that whole field is defined as “the effects of the spell.” They are all “effects of the spell,” and since the spirits are a persistent effect…. Like I said, it took pages to address all of the counter arguments last time.
I play in two groups. For two years I have used spirit guardians with our DM and thought I understood the rules explanation.
That's some time...
I played Wednesday night and two veteran players were excited when I cast Spirit Guardians because they interpreted the rules different than I have and our mutual DM who DM's both groups. They pointed out that if an enemy does not move away from the spirit guardians they continue to take damage. If this is the case, spirit guardians is probably the best 3rd level spell there is. When I read the following I do not think they are correct: "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw." It seems clear with the: "for the first time" wording, that it only works once.
You missed the "or starts it's turn there." It's the key part. Any creature that starts its turn in your aura takes the damage, but they won't take it again if they leave then re-enter the area. However, this is also based on DM rulings, so your DM might have significantly nerfed the spell. However, yes, they will continue to take damage while in the aura RAW.
If not, then why cast 4th level guardian of faith? I am certain I am right but would love to be wrong...what do you all think?
You were wrong. It deals an awful lot of damage, RAW. RAI or RAF, it might be different, but this spell is potent RAW.
I play in two groups. For two years I have used spirit guardians with our DM and thought I understood the rules explanation.
That's some time...
I played Wednesday night and two veteran players were excited when I cast Spirit Guardians because they interpreted the rules different than I have and our mutual DM who DM's both groups. They pointed out that if an enemy does not move away from the spirit guardians they continue to take damage. If this is the case, spirit guardians is probably the best 3rd level spell there is. When I read the following I do not think they are correct: "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw." It seems clear with the: "for the first time" wording, that it only works once.
You missed the "or starts it's turn there." It's the key part. Any creature that starts its turn in your aura takes the damage, but they won't take it again if they leave then re-enter the area. However, this is also based on DM rulings, so your DM might have significantly nerfed the spell. However, yes, they will continue to take damage while in the aura RAW.
If not, then why cast 4th level guardian of faith? I am certain I am right but would love to be wrong...what do you all think?
You were wrong. It deals an awful lot of damage, RAW. RAI or RAF, it might be different, but this spell is potent RAW.
Wow. That’s an amazing spell, especially for third level.
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Also, spirit guardians only allows you to exclude targets you can see. Dropping a Fog Cloud on the party and it's no longer safe to cast (though if previously cast it will not start damaging the other PCs).
Make sure that you give the cleric some fights where Spirit Guardians gets to be a useful tool, but intersperse it with fights against creatures that are wise to the trick. Controlling where the Cleric is controls where the Aura is. Targetting weak saves, ranged attacks, etc., are great tools for breaking concentration. Something else that comes in handy, AOE spells like Fireball that can possibly break concentration even with the half damage on a save or cause enough damage to the party to at least make the cleric switching for bless. Some additional traps and other sources of damage can sap the HP to the point that the cleric may consider saving some slots to top off.
These are all great options and there are others that can present interesting challenges including ambushes against the rear line after an initial attack sets the front line in a disadvantageous position, like on the wrong side of a Fire Wall or something. Something like this attacks on multiple levels while allowing the cleric to feel like they are still playing the way that they want and reduces the parties resources. Followed up with interruptions preventing long and/or short rests, a party will have to try different things to succeed.
As long as you aren't doing this regularly, the party will get different opportunities to shine, the cleric will still get periodic moments to fulfill the non healbot functions of the class/ subclass that drew them to play cleric, and you'll get to have some fun challenging the party in different ways.
As a DM I would rule that you can force an enemy to move into the area and take damage from that. You can do this with things like thunderwave, repelling blast, or the crusher feat. I would also rule though that you cannot move the effect onto the enemy. The wording of the spell says "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn". To me this says that the creature needs to be the moving thing, not the area of the effect.
Doing this will not allow a player mount up and mow the enemy down but it will allow them to do other clever play things like have their allies push or pull enemies into the area each turn.
This is the correct way to rule it and a great example of group synergy.
RAW, according to the rules for how spells and magical effects don’t stack, technically speaking from a purely RAW standpoint, if a hostile creature casts spirit guardians at the same level as the PC, but more recently, then the enemy’s casting would cancel out the PC’s while they overlapped. The whole aura is the ongoing effect of the spell (not just the speed reduction), so the “more potent,” or “more recent” one would overwrite the OG.
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Lol. Beat the cleric with their own medicine. DMs, please don't use this regularly on your parties, but that's a sneaky trick to pull on them.
There is a question of being able to make it so that certain creatures aren't affected and whether that would cause an interaction as stated.
Not to jump on this train, but just wanna point out that the operative word you're missing in the spell text is "OR".
"when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn OR starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw."
there are two trigger conditions for the damage: "the creature enters the area for the first time", or "the creature starts its turn [within the area]." Both trigger saves and when applicable, damage, when either condition is met as long as concentration on the spell is maintained within the duration.
However, don't over-value it either. That doesn't make it the best 3rd level spell in the game. The enemy is free to simply leave the radius of the spell and make ranged attacks, or go attack another party member not within the spells range unless something is restraining them. Most of the time you use it more for area denial rather than straight damage. Still a useful control spell.
*Edit* One thing that looks like it's been left out of the discourse too is that the "for the first time" stipulation you cited states that for the first time "on a *turn*" the effect is triggered. That means that every new turn, there is a new opportunity to trigger the spell. If it were only intended to be one use, it would read "when a creature enters the area for the first time or starts its turn there...", but again, the "on a turn" squarely states that this effect is ongoing.
This is not true actually. If the enemy cast their spell and was affecting his allies then maybe it would take over but it would be damaging his allies. If he does not target his allies then his spell is not affecting them and the PC spell still would. Also, it would only take over if it was the same level or higher at least so it would be a bad plan.
That said I would probably rule that the 2 areas of affect for damage purposes would not be in conflict as far as the stacking rules go and I would allow them both to do damage and have separate save rolls.
My reply is to IamSposta and Jhfffan*
* also, if the damage type is necrotic from an evil character I would definitely not count them as overlapping effects.
That’s not true, the spell’s effect is the actual aura around the caster. The individual creatures affected are irrelevant, the actual area around the caster is the spell’s effect.
It took pages, but I proved it in this thread: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/75172-spiritual-guardians) some people disagree, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
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I think what combining magical effects means for spirit guardians is that you only take damage from one of them even if in the area of multiple of them, and since any amount of damage is more potent than zero damage, the NPC spirit guardians only interacts in the case where neither caster has excluded a given target.
This does mean that multiple clerics with spirit guardians can't work together to create a zone of death.
Others have argued that the only effect that would have the combining effects apply would be the speed reduction and that the damage does specifically stack. Either way, the actual aura is the spell’s effect, not just the damage or just the speed reduction.
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This was the argument that I was foreseeing would come up. My thought process got interrupted before I was able to flesh it out well, but this argument should be prepared for and addressed if the tactic is going to be used.
Much like magic missile, it’s another spell that gets played differently from RAW, and that’s okay, there’s nothing wrong with that. Playing against RAW is fine if everyone agrees, I have several houserules too, everyone does. But it is RAW. And frankly I’m okay with it as it is a limiting factor on an otherwise overtuned spell.
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Yes, but combining magical effects doesn't disallow overlapping auras. It just means the effects don't stack.
Basically in a nutshell, this:
That is the ongoing effect of the spell, right there. Everything else is caused by that effect, but that is the actual effect right there, those spirits in that area. Since the effects of multiple castings of the same spells cannot stack, those spirits from multiple castings of the spell cannot effect the same area. Therefore, wherever the areas of two or more castings of the spell overlap, the rules for multiple ongoing effects kicks in, and wherever they don’t overlap they function normally.
Now, at that point it is up to the DM to determine what constitutes “potency,” but if they just use spell slot level used to cast, and both were cast at 2nd-level, then the more recent one takes precedence. If the more recent one was cast by the hostile and it rolls in like: “Oh yeah!?! 👉 Two can play at that game ‘hero,’ *p’toey* TO ME SPIRITS!!” And then the evil Raiders of the Lost Ark looking spirits come in all 💀 and the PC’s GG spirits are all like 👻 “run away.” Or maybe it’s a more epic battle betwixt G & E, but E came in fresh and jumped G when they weren’t lookin’ like a WWE style run-in and 💥. Before G’s spirits knew it they were up to their 💪 in 455🕳s & 🐊s. 🤷♂️
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No, the effect is slowing and damage at start of turn. You can be targeted by two copies of the same spell at once, it's just the effects that don't stack.
There is one caveat here though. Assuming it's played this way (qualifier to stave off the "Oh No it Don't" arguments), the cleric that casts second will take damage before the cleric who had the spell going, assuming that they are close enough to have each other's spells overlap each cleric. Since the spirits flit around you, you aren't included in the area of effect of the spell, thus the two spells would affect the casters regardless of other circumstances. Since the spell doesn't cause damage to creatures when the aura moves upon them, when the second cleric casts the spell or moves into place, the first cleric won't take damage until the start of their turn. However, if the second cleric moves into the aura of the first cleric, they'll take damage. If they have already cast the spell, they may lose concentration. The sneaky second cleric could knowingly move into the aura, take the damage, and then cast Spirit Guardians, hoping to have matched the same potency as the first and therefore nullifying the aura for their allies.
Of course, it's not necessary to enter into the cleric's aura to negate part of it, but it does provide a larger area of overlap.
This is part of what was already argued before. Absolutely everything in that whole field is defined as “the effects of the spell.” They are all “effects of the spell,” and since the spirits are a persistent effect…. Like I said, it took pages to address all of the counter arguments last time.
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That's some time...
You missed the "or starts it's turn there." It's the key part. Any creature that starts its turn in your aura takes the damage, but they won't take it again if they leave then re-enter the area. However, this is also based on DM rulings, so your DM might have significantly nerfed the spell. However, yes, they will continue to take damage while in the aura RAW.
You were wrong. It deals an awful lot of damage, RAW. RAI or RAF, it might be different, but this spell is potent RAW.
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Wow. That’s an amazing spell, especially for third level.