Your hand isn't considered free if it isn't mechanically doing something. You can be holding a mug of ale which mechanically does nothing, the hand is considered occupied.
What, do they have to redefine what every word means? No. Occupied means occupied.
That's true if the wand you're holding is something. Like a wand of fireball. Then you're wielding a magic item. An arcane focus isn't something, though, except in that it is something that can fit in the same hand as that provides somatic components.
Mechanically speaking, a focus is ONLY an item that can replace M components and that can share a hand with S components.
Otherwise, it isn't defined as something.
So if we are supposed to ignore the black and white text saying what the focus is, then it isn't anything at all... and your hand is free.
Your argument is that a spellcasting focus doesn't actually count as anything? Umm, I'm going to to disagree and say that it is, in fact, something. And that if there is something in your hand it is not, in fact, free. Where in any of the rules lead you to conclude that an object is not an object?
Edit: See when I said this was trolling, I was not actually trying to insult you. All I was literally doing was calling out a behavior your were doing. When you make such facetious arguments it is hard for me to see it as anything other than deliberate misintepretation and deliberately misinterpreting someone's point is trollish behavior.
Yes, there are no rules in the PHB or DMG that say that objects just don't exist when you cast spells or in any circumstances. That argument is obviously false.
(Yes, we're not trying to insult you by calling you a troll, because if you're not, you don't understand RAW for spellcasting. If you are a troll, these are the kind of arguments a troll would use, for example: The object doesn't exist in this case, or focusing on a bit of flavor text and insisting it was RAW.
Eh, if you grossly misunderstand or misconstrue my statement and THEN call me a troll for not understanding what I'm saying... that's just, not cool, tbh.
Alls I am saying is that holding a shield is doing something. You're doing something mechanical. You're activating rules mechanics by "Wielding a shield". Yeah? You follow?
You wield a shortsword. Same thing. You're activating rules texts, by wielding a shortsword you have changed the nature of your character's interaction with the world. Functionally. Mechanically.
But you can't "wield" a focus. That isn't a thing in this game. Mechanically it is gibberish, null, error 404 not found. There is no rules for what that means.
Are you following?
That's what I'm talking about here. Wielding a staff of power? Yeah, that's doing something. Wielding a staff? Uh. Null. The term "wield a staff" has no mechanical RAW output in this game's rules. It doesn't actually mean anything. There is no there, there.
Again, not unless you do something weird like wield a staff as an improvised weapon, then, yeah, that's something. Then you have a rules text to go to.
Have any text to support this statement that there's a difference between wielding and holding? Also, even if there is, your hand isn't considered free if there's something in it.
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Your hand isn't considered free if it isn't mechanically doing something. You can be holding a mug of ale which mechanically does nothing, the hand is considered occupied.
What, do they have to redefine what every word means? No. Occupied means occupied.
Only this. There is no definition in the rules, the rules are written in natural English. Words mean what they mean. If you don't understand natural English, then you will probably have a tough time with a lot of rules in 5e.
I suspect the issue is that you're trying to solve the question at too high a resolution than the game text offers. Basically, mechanically, whether your hand remains occupied with a focus or if you never took it off your belt makes no difference. Your hand simply needs to be available for the spell and not be involved in some other functional activity.
We paint a pretty narrative picture over the rough mechanical framework all the time, and THIS is one of those instances. A focus doesn't require wielding. It doesn't necessarily occupy your hand, mechanically speaking.
Take for instance the cleric with a holy symbol around his neck. The focus isn't being wielded in his hand. However, to benefit from it, he needs to have a hand free to hold it. But it doesn't say he must equip it to a hand-slot, so to speak. It doesn't even technically, mechanically, say that he MUST even hold it. Only that he have a free hand to do so, and obviously have the object.
So on a purely mechanical level, the notion of having anything in your hand at all is totally irrelevant in the case of a focus. It's all fluff, the narrative we use to paint the picture over top the mechanical.
If your hand isn't somehow busy doing something on any real mechanical level, then it is free for spellcasting. Everything else is fluff.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you're thinking a wand is a bad choice for a focus, that's another discussion- all the options have their merits. There is a cost to having a wand; you have to get it out and put it away, just like any other object including arrows, though drawing arrows is free! Just like whipping the wand out is.
Yes, wizards can use a wand as a focus. That is just saing that they can use WANDS (and the other listed items) as a focus, as opposed to Holy Symbols. By your method of interpretation, a Wizard can use a focus, PERIOD, which implies they can use it as an improvised weapon with proficiency. That's not strawman, that's extrapolation of your logic.
You don't need to draw a wand to use it as a focus. Not per RAW.
Edit: Regarding that second paragraph... the item description says that can use it a spellcasting focus, not as an improvised weapon with proficiency. I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If your hand isn't somehow busy doing something on any real mechanical level, then it is free for spellcasting. Everything else is fluff.
So, an anvil can be in your hand, and as long as it isn't doing anything, your hand is free for spellcasting?
You ignored my request for text explaining your argument. If your hand is full, it's full and not free for spellcasting. Prove you're not a troll by actually giving evidence to your extreme statements.
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If you're thinking a wand is a bad choice for a focus, that's another discussion- all the options have their merits. There is a cost to having a wand; you have to get it out and put it away, just like any other object including arrows, though drawing arrows is free! Just like whipping the wand out is.
Yes, wizards can use a wand as a focus. That is just saing that they can use WANDS (and the other listed items) as a focus, as opposed to Holy Symbols. By your method of interpretation, a Wizard can use a focus, PERIOD, which implies they can use it as an improvised weapon with proficiency. That's not strawman, that's extrapolation of your logic.
You don't need to draw a wand to use it as a focus. Not per RAW.
You need the wand/other focus in your hand to use it as a focus.
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You don't need to draw a wand to use it as a focus. Not per RAW.
Yes, but also I don't think anyone's actually argued this point. We're just answering the question of how to rule IF you do have a focus in your hand at the moment. In which case it is considered occupied and not free.
Edit: I retract my statement. I'm in the middle of helping my husband cook and had not fully considered that answer.
If you're thinking a wand is a bad choice for a focus, that's another discussion- all the options have their merits. There is a cost to having a wand; you have to get it out and put it away, just like any other object including arrows, though drawing arrows is free! Just like whipping the wand out is.
Yes, wizards can use a wand as a focus. That is just saing that they can use WANDS (and the other listed items) as a focus, as opposed to Holy Symbols. By your method of interpretation, a Wizard can use a focus, PERIOD, which implies they can use it as an improvised weapon with proficiency. That's not strawman, that's extrapolation of your logic.
You don't need to draw a wand to use it as a focus. Not per RAW.
You need the wand/other focus in your hand to use it as a focus.
No, you do not. You need a free hand. Do you also put your spell component pouch in your hand to use it? No. You don't.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So, yes, RAW, you must hold the component pouch to use it as a spellcasting focus.
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I believe he's trying to amplify that our argument is that you must have a free hand to do spells with somatic components, and use that to establish that in being allowed to be done in spells with M components, a focus or material component constitutes 'a free hand'.
*smh* This is manipulative behavior and should be smacked.
It is interesting how this argument seemed to devolve. Rav, how about this: play it your way. Almost everyone in this thread has admitted that the RAW isn't RAF.
It doesn't really matter whether you can come to terms with what is written in the books if you and your table are having fun. You have wasted 16 pages of responses of people trying to get you to read and understand plain English. We started patient, but your arguments grow more and more tiresome -- most of us have lost our patience. You are now arguing yourself in circles (you now argue that holding something isn't a thing because we won't let you get away with saying that you can always hold a focus). These pages haven't been constructive for a while now, because you are so deadset on the rules being the way you think they should be that you can't read or discuss reasonably.
A free hand is not defined-- it is what a reasonable English reader would call it. Go ask one. We're here.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So, yes, RAW, you must hold the component pouch to use it as a spellcasting focus.
Reread that sentence. The requirement is to have a free hand.
The interaction with the component/focus/pouch doesn't need occupy your hand. You only need access to it and a free hand.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So, yes, RAW, you must hold the component pouch to use it as a spellcasting focus.
Reread that sentence. The requirement is to have a free hand.
The interaction with the component/focus/pouch doesn't need occupy your hand. You only need access to it and a free hand.
Can you read? It says, "You must have a free hand to access material components or to hold a spellcasting focus."
It does need to occupy your hand, because it has to be in your hand. It says you need a free hand to access material components or that you can use a hand to hold a spellcasting focus.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So, yes, RAW, you must hold the component pouch to use it as a spellcasting focus.
Reread that sentence. The requirement is to have a free hand.
The interaction with the component/focus/pouch doesn't need occupy your hand. You only need access to it and a free hand.
Can you read? It says, "You must have a free hand to access material components or to hold a spellcasting focus."
It does need to occupy your hand, because it has to be in your hand. It says you need a free hand to access material components or that you can use a hand to hold a spellcasting focus.
But it doesn't need to occupy your hand. of course I can read. It says "A spellcaster must have a hand free". The hand free is the requirement. It needs to be free for something specific, to be able to access/hold the component/focus. Yes. But that requirement is for the hand to be free. Not for the thing to have happened.
If you boss told you you were required to be free to work the weekend... it doesn't mean you need to work the weekend, but that you were free to do so. The subject of the sentence in the requirement is hand. So the hand is what fulfills the requirement, and it does so by being free, free to access/hold. The requirement doesn't say that it needs to do these things, only that it be free to.
A cleric with a Holy Symbol visibly worn around their neck can reach up and grasp it while casting. But that doesn't mean it is now glued to his hand forever. That's not how spellcasting a M components has ever worked. Ever.
You're not equipping the item to a hand-slot here. That's just not how this works, and it certainly doesn't say anything like that in the rules. Your hand must simply be free to interact.
Yall are running into errors because you're trying to resolve this at a higher resolution than the rules give us. The focus never occupies the hand in the first place. Not by RAW.
You need access to it, and a free hand. That's it! Everything else is fluff.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Literally nothing in this section is fluff. Everything there is a rule. This isn't like the Arcane Focus Definition section, which did have flavor text, nothing here is flavor text.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So, yes, RAW, you must hold the component pouch to use it as a spellcasting focus.
Reread that sentence. The requirement is to have a free hand.
The interaction with the component/focus/pouch doesn't need occupy your hand. You only need access to it and a free hand.
Can you read? It says, "You must have a free hand to access material components or to hold a spellcasting focus."
It does need to occupy your hand, because it has to be in your hand. It says you need a free hand to access material components or that you can use a hand to hold a spellcasting focus.
But it doesn't need to occupy your hand. of course I can read. It says "A spellcaster must have a hand free". The hand free is the requirement. It needs to be free for something specific, to be able to access/hold the component/focus. Yes. But that requirement is for the hand to be free. Not for the thing to have happened.
Don't cut off the sentence before you get to the important part. Just don't. That's the definition of a strawman. You can't cut parts of the rules. You have to have a free hand to access material components or hold a spellcasting focus.
If you boss told you you were required to be free to work the weekend... it doesn't mean you need to work the weekend, but that you were free to do so. The subject of the sentence in the requirement is hand. So the hand is what fulfills the requirement, and it does so by being free, free to access/hold. The requirement doesn't say that it needs to do these things, only that it be free to.
Yeah, this has literally no application here. I don't know why you brought it up, D&D rules aren't a boss telling you that you might have to do something, they tell you that you have to do something.
A cleric with a Holy Symbol visibly worn around their neck can reach up and grasp it while casting. But that doesn't mean it is now glued to his hand forever. That's not how spellcasting a M components has ever worked. Ever.
Not forever, but they have to hold it while they cast the spell.
You're not equipping the item to a hand-slot here. That's just not how this works, and it certainly doesn't say anything like that in the rules. Your hand must simply be free to interact.
Again, equipping and occupying aren't mechanics in D&D 5e. If you hold something, you're holding it and your hand is full.
Yall are running into errors because you're trying to resolve this at a higher resolution than the rules give us. The focus never occupies the hand in the first place. Not by RAW.
You need access to it, and a free hand. That's it! Everything else is fluff.
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You need access to it, and a free hand. That's it! Everything else is fluff.
I'm going to leave that alone, actually, because it might be the only thing you've brought up so far that's actually debatable.
Can you agree, though, that IF you have a spellcasting focus held in your hand, occupying it, that you cannot count it as a free hand for the purposes of a spell that requires a somatic component but that does not require a material component?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Literally nothing in this section is fluff. Everything there is a rule. This isn't like the Arcane Focus Definition section, which did have flavor text, nothing here is flavor text.
I'm not saying anything in the BOOK is fluff. I'm saying anything YOU describe as your character doing is fluff. If it is outside the mechanical rules text of the book, it is fluff. The notion that a focus is equipped to your hand-slot is pure fabrication, and also based on fluff.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Your hand isn't considered free if it isn't mechanically doing something. You can be holding a mug of ale which mechanically does nothing, the hand is considered occupied.
What, do they have to redefine what every word means? No. Occupied means occupied.
Have any text to support this statement that there's a difference between wielding and holding? Also, even if there is, your hand isn't considered free if there's something in it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Only this. There is no definition in the rules, the rules are written in natural English. Words mean what they mean. If you don't understand natural English, then you will probably have a tough time with a lot of rules in 5e.
I suspect the issue is that you're trying to solve the question at too high a resolution than the game text offers. Basically, mechanically, whether your hand remains occupied with a focus or if you never took it off your belt makes no difference. Your hand simply needs to be available for the spell and not be involved in some other functional activity.
We paint a pretty narrative picture over the rough mechanical framework all the time, and THIS is one of those instances. A focus doesn't require wielding. It doesn't necessarily occupy your hand, mechanically speaking.
Take for instance the cleric with a holy symbol around his neck. The focus isn't being wielded in his hand. However, to benefit from it, he needs to have a hand free to hold it. But it doesn't say he must equip it to a hand-slot, so to speak. It doesn't even technically, mechanically, say that he MUST even hold it. Only that he have a free hand to do so, and obviously have the object.
So on a purely mechanical level, the notion of having anything in your hand at all is totally irrelevant in the case of a focus. It's all fluff, the narrative we use to paint the picture over top the mechanical.
If your hand isn't somehow busy doing something on any real mechanical level, then it is free for spellcasting. Everything else is fluff.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You don't need to draw a wand to use it as a focus. Not per RAW.
Edit: Regarding that second paragraph... the item description says that can use it a spellcasting focus, not as an improvised weapon with proficiency. I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So, an anvil can be in your hand, and as long as it isn't doing anything, your hand is free for spellcasting?
You ignored my request for text explaining your argument. If your hand is full, it's full and not free for spellcasting. Prove you're not a troll by actually giving evidence to your extreme statements.
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You need the wand/other focus in your hand to use it as a focus.
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Yes, but also I don't think anyone's actually argued this point. We're just answering the question of how to rule IF you do have a focus in your hand at the moment. In which case it is considered occupied and not free.Edit: I retract my statement. I'm in the middle of helping my husband cook and had not fully considered that answer.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
No, you do not. You need a free hand. Do you also put your spell component pouch in your hand to use it? No. You don't.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So, yes, RAW, you must hold the component pouch to use it as a spellcasting focus.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I believe he's trying to amplify that our argument is that you must have a free hand to do spells with somatic components, and use that to establish that in being allowed to be done in spells with M components, a focus or material component constitutes 'a free hand'.
*smh* This is manipulative behavior and should be smacked.
It is interesting how this argument seemed to devolve. Rav, how about this: play it your way. Almost everyone in this thread has admitted that the RAW isn't RAF.
It doesn't really matter whether you can come to terms with what is written in the books if you and your table are having fun. You have wasted 16 pages of responses of people trying to get you to read and understand plain English. We started patient, but your arguments grow more and more tiresome -- most of us have lost our patience. You are now arguing yourself in circles (you now argue that holding something isn't a thing because we won't let you get away with saying that you can always hold a focus). These pages haven't been constructive for a while now, because you are so deadset on the rules being the way you think they should be that you can't read or discuss reasonably.
A free hand is not defined-- it is what a reasonable English reader would call it. Go ask one. We're here.
Reread that sentence. The requirement is to have a free hand.
The interaction with the component/focus/pouch doesn't need occupy your hand. You only need access to it and a free hand.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Can you read? It says, "You must have a free hand to access material components or to hold a spellcasting focus."
It does need to occupy your hand, because it has to be in your hand. It says you need a free hand to access material components or that you can use a hand to hold a spellcasting focus.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
But it doesn't need to occupy your hand. of course I can read. It says "A spellcaster must have a hand free". The hand free is the requirement. It needs to be free for something specific, to be able to access/hold the component/focus. Yes. But that requirement is for the hand to be free. Not for the thing to have happened.
If you boss told you you were required to be free to work the weekend... it doesn't mean you need to work the weekend, but that you were free to do so. The subject of the sentence in the requirement is hand. So the hand is what fulfills the requirement, and it does so by being free, free to access/hold. The requirement doesn't say that it needs to do these things, only that it be free to.
A cleric with a Holy Symbol visibly worn around their neck can reach up and grasp it while casting. But that doesn't mean it is now glued to his hand forever. That's not how spellcasting a M components has ever worked. Ever.
You're not equipping the item to a hand-slot here. That's just not how this works, and it certainly doesn't say anything like that in the rules. Your hand must simply be free to interact.
Yall are running into errors because you're trying to resolve this at a higher resolution than the rules give us. The focus never occupies the hand in the first place. Not by RAW.
You need access to it, and a free hand. That's it! Everything else is fluff.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Literally nothing in this section is fluff. Everything there is a rule. This isn't like the Arcane Focus Definition section, which did have flavor text, nothing here is flavor text.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Rav's argument is completely inane. "To fry an egg, you should prepare the pan so that the egg does not stick to it."
"Okay, but you didn't say you have to prepare the egg in the pan."
*face- PALM*
Don't cut off the sentence before you get to the important part. Just don't. That's the definition of a strawman. You can't cut parts of the rules. You have to have a free hand to access material components or hold a spellcasting focus.
Yeah, this has literally no application here. I don't know why you brought it up, D&D rules aren't a boss telling you that you might have to do something, they tell you that you have to do something.
Not forever, but they have to hold it while they cast the spell.
Again, equipping and occupying aren't mechanics in D&D 5e. If you hold something, you're holding it and your hand is full.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm going to leave that alone, actually, because it might be the only thing you've brought up so far that's actually debatable.
Can you agree, though, that IF you have a spellcasting focus held in your hand, occupying it, that you cannot count it as a free hand for the purposes of a spell that requires a somatic component but that does not require a material component?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm not saying anything in the BOOK is fluff. I'm saying anything YOU describe as your character doing is fluff. If it is outside the mechanical rules text of the book, it is fluff. The notion that a focus is equipped to your hand-slot is pure fabrication, and also based on fluff.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.