We have a new player in our group who is playing a Paladin. He now has two attacks. He is insistent that he may cast guiding bolt for his first attack and then swing with his sword for the second attack. We have argued for hours about this. Despite showing him multiple sources stating this is not how it works he continues to insist this is the case. Can someone please outline as simple as possible why this is not the case?
He is specifically hung up on pg 194 of the PHB. "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack." Therefore, since a spell is an attack he may cast guiding bolt for one attack and swing his sword for another. He also says the spell, as part of being a paladin, is intended to be able used this way. We point to pg 192 and state he may either attack or cast a spell. You cannot do both unless otherwise stated, such as through a bonus action. Pointing to the spell cast time being 6 seconds and therefor taking an entire turn is also not believed.
You only get one action on your turn. Extra attack has the condition, "whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." If you're talking the attack action, you can't also take the cast a spell action because you only have one action regardless of how many attacks you can make with that action.
Guiding bolt is a spell that calls for an attack roll. That means the cast a spell action. So yes guiding bolt is an attack, but it takes your action to cast so you can't also take the attack action. Conversely, if you've already taken the attack action, you cannot then cast guiding bolt because your action is no longer available.
What this player is arguing is ludicrous. By the player's flawed logic, a level 20 Eldritch Knight could cast firebolt 4 times for 16d10 damage. Absurd.
Just simply guiding bolt and extra attack are dependant on different actions. Guiding bolt requires the [Tooltip Not Found] action; and, extra attack requires taking the attack action.
The argument that because he is a paladin it is supposed to work that way makes no sense. Clerics learn guiding bolt too, but dont get extra attack. Now where that argument does work is with the bonus action smite spells that are mostly unique to paladins, you cast those spells as a bonus action then attack as an action.
Explain it as math. A PC get one action on their turn. The spell description (and the cast a spell action in general) says it takes one action to cast the spell. Extra attack allows two attacks per action; each attack taking half (by math). So casting Guiding bolt and making an extra attack = 1.5 actions, which is more than a PC is allowed.
There is the Attack action and making an attack roll, which are two different things, and that is where he is getting confused.
Some abilities trigger when making an attack roll, like a Bard's Inspiration die
Once within the next 10 minutes, the creature can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes.
A character with an inspiration die can add it to a Guiding Bolt or a regular weapon attack, or anything else that follows that description on 194. And they can do it at any time. During their action, bonus action, or a reaction opportunity attack, as long as it is an attack roll.
A Paladin's Extra Attack applies to one very specific case of making an attack roll, which is when you take the Attack action.
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
If the Paladin casts Guiding Bolt, he is not taking the Attack action, but rather the [Tooltip Not Found] action. This does cause an attack roll, but again, not as part of the Attack action, and therefore does not get the extra attack.
He cannot use the Attackaction and the [Tooltip Not Found] action in the same turn of combat.
Extra Attack only applies when the character is taking the Attack action.
The Attackaction is not equivalent to "an attack".
Extra Attack does not allow a spell to be substituted for "an attack".
Paladin class features do not allow a spell to be substituted for "an attack".
If your player somehow still does not understand that, point them to the "Casting Time" in the entry for Guiding Bolt; "1 Action". That's one full action, not "one attack".
Ask him to think about what would happen if he cast the spell first thing on his turn. Does he still get to make weapon attacks afterward? No, he's used his action. Now ask him to look at the Attack action again. If he has made one weapon attack with the Attack action (Extra Attack), does he still have a full action with which to cast the spell? No, he does not.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
He cannot use the Attackaction and the Cast a Spellaction in the same turn of combat.
Extra Attack only applies when the character is taking the Attack action.
The Attackaction is not equivalent to "an attack".
Extra Attack does not allow a spell to be substituted for "an attack".
Paladin class features do not allow a spell to be substituted for "an attack".
If your player somehow still does not understand that, point them to the "Casting Time" in the entry for Guiding Bolt; "1 Action". That's one full action, not "one attack".
Ask him to think about what would happen if he cast the spell first thing on his turn. Does he still get to make weapon attacks afterward? No, he's used his action. Now ask him to look at the Attack action again. If he has made one weapon attack with the Attack action (Extra Attack), does he still have a full action with which to cast the spell? No, he does not.
Honestly, if these arguments don’t sway the player, or they can’t accept a DMs ruling on it, maybe it would be best to move on without them
We have a new player in our group who is playing a Paladin. He now has two attacks. He is insistent that he may cast guiding bolt for his first attack and then swing with his sword for the second attack. We have argued for hours about this. Despite showing him multiple sources stating this is not how it works he continues to insist this is the case. Can someone please outline as simple as possible why this is not the case?
He is specifically hung up on pg 194 of the PHB. "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack." Therefore, since a spell is an attack he may cast guiding bolt for one attack and swing his sword for another. He also says the spell, as part of being a paladin, is intended to be able used this way. We point to pg 192 and state he may either attack or cast a spell. You cannot do both unless otherwise stated, such as through a bonus action. Pointing to the spell cast time being 6 seconds and therefor taking an entire turn is also not believed.
Can someone please put this argument to rest?
The issue is terminology and no one else is catching it, especially WotC.
There is a clear difference between an Attack as an action and the Attack Rolls. What we should be refering to them as "Hit" and "Damage" rolls, but everyone defaults to "Attack" and leads to this confusion. I would explain thusly:
When you want to make an action, you first "Declear" it, you state what action you want to take. In this case, it is either "Attack" or "Cast Spell". When you declare "Attack" as a Paladin of sufficent level, you then make as many as two weapon strikes with your equpt weapons to targets in range. Once you chose your target, you roll to "Hit" via a D20 and modifiers. If successful, you then roll to "Damage" with the appropriate dice for the weapon.
When you "Declare" to "Cast Spell" you use your full action (as shown in the spell requirements unless it's a Bonus action) to cast the spell. If the spell requires it, you do roll "Hit" and "Damage" dice, but not all spells do this.
Just because a Spell has Hit and Damage rolls, known collectively as Attack Rolls, doesn't make them the same as the Attack Action.
If all of the above don't work, you can point to the fighter's Eldritch Knight. EK has an ability called War Magic. At level 7, they gain the ability make a bonus action attack after they cast a cantrip. At level 18 (the EK capstone) they finally learn to do it when casting a leveled spell. Each time, the extra attack uses a bonus action to accomplish.
Your player is essentially trying to do this with a class that has no such language using a free action.
Admittedly, this isn't likely to sway them if none of the other suggestions don't, but who knows.
We have a new player in our group who is playing a Paladin. He now has two attacks. He is insistent that he may cast guiding bolt for his first attack and then swing with his sword for the second attack. We have argued for hours about this. Despite showing him multiple sources stating this is not how it works he continues to insist this is the case. Can someone please outline as simple as possible why this is not the case?
He is specifically hung up on pg 194 of the PHB. "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack." Therefore, since a spell is an attack he may cast guiding bolt for one attack and swing his sword for another. He also says the spell, as part of being a paladin, is intended to be able used this way. We point to pg 192 and state he may either attack or cast a spell. You cannot do both unless otherwise stated, such as through a bonus action. Pointing to the spell cast time being 6 seconds and therefor taking an entire turn is also not believed.
Can someone please put this argument to rest?
You only get one action on your turn. Extra attack has the condition, "whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." If you're talking the attack action, you can't also take the cast a spell action because you only have one action regardless of how many attacks you can make with that action.
Guiding bolt is a spell that calls for an attack roll. That means the cast a spell action. So yes guiding bolt is an attack, but it takes your action to cast so you can't also take the attack action. Conversely, if you've already taken the attack action, you cannot then cast guiding bolt because your action is no longer available.
What this player is arguing is ludicrous. By the player's flawed logic, a level 20 Eldritch Knight could cast firebolt 4 times for 16d10 damage. Absurd.
Just simply guiding bolt and extra attack are dependant on different actions. Guiding bolt requires the [Tooltip Not Found] action; and, extra attack requires taking the attack action.
The argument that because he is a paladin it is supposed to work that way makes no sense. Clerics learn guiding bolt too, but dont get extra attack. Now where that argument does work is with the bonus action smite spells that are mostly unique to paladins, you cast those spells as a bonus action then attack as an action.
Explain it as math. A PC get one action on their turn. The spell description (and the cast a spell action in general) says it takes one action to cast the spell. Extra attack allows two attacks per action; each attack taking half (by math). So casting Guiding bolt and making an extra attack = 1.5 actions, which is more than a PC is allowed.
There is the Attack action and making an attack roll, which are two different things, and that is where he is getting confused.
Some abilities trigger when making an attack roll, like a Bard's Inspiration die
Once within the next 10 minutes, the creature can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes.
A character with an inspiration die can add it to a Guiding Bolt or a regular weapon attack, or anything else that follows that description on 194. And they can do it at any time. During their action, bonus action, or a reaction opportunity attack, as long as it is an attack roll.
A Paladin's Extra Attack applies to one very specific case of making an attack roll, which is when you take the Attack action.
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
If the Paladin casts Guiding Bolt, he is not taking the Attack action, but rather the [Tooltip Not Found] action. This does cause an attack roll, but again, not as part of the Attack action, and therefore does not get the extra attack.
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He cannot use the Attack action and the [Tooltip Not Found] action in the same turn of combat.
Extra Attack only applies when the character is taking the Attack action.
The Attack action is not equivalent to "an attack".
Extra Attack does not allow a spell to be substituted for "an attack".
Paladin class features do not allow a spell to be substituted for "an attack".
If your player somehow still does not understand that, point them to the "Casting Time" in the entry for Guiding Bolt; "1 Action". That's one full action, not "one attack".
Ask him to think about what would happen if he cast the spell first thing on his turn. Does he still get to make weapon attacks afterward? No, he's used his action. Now ask him to look at the Attack action again. If he has made one weapon attack with the Attack action (Extra Attack), does he still have a full action with which to cast the spell? No, he does not.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Honestly, if these arguments don’t sway the player, or they can’t accept a DMs ruling on it, maybe it would be best to move on without them
The issue is terminology and no one else is catching it, especially WotC.
There is a clear difference between an Attack as an action and the Attack Rolls. What we should be refering to them as "Hit" and "Damage" rolls, but everyone defaults to "Attack" and leads to this confusion. I would explain thusly:
When you want to make an action, you first "Declear" it, you state what action you want to take. In this case, it is either "Attack" or "Cast Spell". When you declare "Attack" as a Paladin of sufficent level, you then make as many as two weapon strikes with your equpt weapons to targets in range. Once you chose your target, you roll to "Hit" via a D20 and modifiers. If successful, you then roll to "Damage" with the appropriate dice for the weapon.
When you "Declare" to "Cast Spell" you use your full action (as shown in the spell requirements unless it's a Bonus action) to cast the spell. If the spell requires it, you do roll "Hit" and "Damage" dice, but not all spells do this.
Just because a Spell has Hit and Damage rolls, known collectively as Attack Rolls, doesn't make them the same as the Attack Action.
If all of the above don't work, you can point to the fighter's Eldritch Knight. EK has an ability called War Magic. At level 7, they gain the ability make a bonus action attack after they cast a cantrip. At level 18 (the EK capstone) they finally learn to do it when casting a leveled spell. Each time, the extra attack uses a bonus action to accomplish.
Your player is essentially trying to do this with a class that has no such language using a free action.
Admittedly, this isn't likely to sway them if none of the other suggestions don't, but who knows.
To be fair, that’s because you aren’t casting a spell with Devine smite, it just uses up a spell slot to power it…
Not really sure why you are bringing this up. This 3 year old thread was not about divine smite and it was never mentioned...