4yulming4, without getting into the "wizard spell" vs "sorcerer spell" distinction... you need to be much more precise when throwing around analysis about why a Wizard can't cast his sorcerer spells automatically, and vice versa. The first and largest hurdle to doing that is that Wizards cast spells which they have "prepared" from their spellbook, but do not "know" any spells at all. Meanwhile sorcerers cast spells which they "know," but do not "prepare" any spells at all. This would prevent a Wizard from just casting his sorcerer spells with his wizard spellcasting ability even if all of those sorcerer spells were considered to be wizard spells, and even if the Chapter 6 multiclassing "associated with" rule for spellcasters doesn't actually lock you into associating a spell with one-and-only-one class.
This is why it's rarely productive to have this particular conversation in the context of mixing "known casters" (sorcerers, bards, warlocks, EKs, ATs, paladins, rangers) and "prepared casters" (wizards, clerics, druids, artificers). The spellcasting of each of these two groups is so wholly unlike the other that there is very little shared vocabulary between them to find a common meaning of what "your spells" means, and more often than not, folks gloss over the fundamental differences between the two casting styles.
I don't think that "your sorcerer spells" are spells that you haven't selected, I absolutely agree that "your spell" are certainly only the spells that you [have]. Like above, I'm not 100% on whether "your spells" can gracefully bridge between prepared caster and known caster classes, because the "your spells" of a sorcerer, bard, ranger, etc. are all going to be "yours" because you "know" them, while the "your spells" of a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer are going to be "yours" because you have them prepared (or always treat them as prepared due to your subclass). But then, cantrips bridge that gap, since all casters that have cantrips "know" their cantrips. Oof!
All I am saying is that if you [have] a Bard spell (it is one of "your Bard Spells"), and that spell is also printed on the Sorcerer spell list (or your Sorcerer subclass gives it to you and tells you to treat it as a sorcerer spell despite it not being on that list), then you also [have] it as one of "your Sorcerer Spells." I understand that you instead think that something only becomes "your Sorcerer spell" if you select it from a Sorcerer level-up, or as part of Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) (despite Magic Initiate not saying anywhere in its text that it grants you a class spell, and instead uses language that's pretty much identical to Wood Elf Magic). But as you have acknowledged, your interpretation is no more textually supported than you think my own is, although you may have some good points about it being intended to work that way.
This disagreement about what "cleric spells" and "wizard spells" etc are doesn't start and stop at what "your cleric spells" are. I agree that's the direction that this conversation has spun off to, because we're mostly talking about what characters are allowed to cast with their Spellcasting features that allow them to cast "your spells," but please note that there are plenty of other features out there, like Arcana Cleric 8's Potent Spellcasting, which just interact with "any cleric cantrip." When a Divine Soul Sorcerer learns Sacred Flame as a charisma-based cantrip associated with their Sorcerer class, and they cast that cantrip in that fashion, I don't accept that there's a RAW way to say that Sacred Flame is not included in "any cleric cantrip" since it appears on the Cleric Spell List. I also think it is one of "your Cleric [cantrips]", but even if there's some angle there where "your" is denied to it, it remains an "any Cleric cantrip."
Lol my bad. I’m a little brain dead after work this week. I’m working off of an iPhone and it’s hard for me to accurately keep up with what’s been posted sometimes off the various pages, even my own.
while I don’t know the RAI when it was written, the direction the unearthed arcana feats that recently came out with combined with the sage advice leads me to believe he’s basically given up on the specifics of the wording to give players what we’ve been talking about.
they seem to be caught in a bit of a design pickle between wanting to enact minor fixes to the game, paying for each errata, not wanting to devalue already printed books, and muddy the community waters with rules changes that seem to have ripple effects lasting years.
I’ll leave the semantics up to you fine individuals.
I don't think that "your sorcerer spells" are spells that you haven't selected, I absolutely agree that "your spell" are certainly only the spells that you [have]. Like above, I'm not 100% on whether "your spells" can gracefully bridge between prepared caster and known caster classes, because the "your spells" of a sorcerer, bard, ranger, etc. are all going to be "yours" because you "know" them, while the "your spells" of a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer are going to be "yours" because you have them prepared (or always treat them as prepared due to your subclass). But then, cantrips bridge that gap, since all casters that have cantrips "know" their cantrips. Oof!
All I am saying is that if you [have] a Bard spell (it is one of "your Bard Spells"), and that spell is also printed on the Sorcerer spell list (or your Sorcerer subclass gives it to you and tells you to treat it as a sorcerer spell despite it not being on that list), then you also [have] it as one of "your Sorcerer Spells." I understand that you instead think that something only becomes "your Sorcerer spell" if you select it from a Sorcerer level-up, or as part of Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) (despite Magic Initiate not saying anywhere in its text that it grants you a class spell, and instead uses language that's pretty much identical to Wood Elf Magic). But as you have acknowledged, your interpretation is no more textually supported than you think my own is, although you may have some good points about it being intended to work that way.
This disagreement about what "cleric spells" and "wizard spells" etc are doesn't start and stop at what "your cleric spells" are. I agree that's the direction that this conversation has spun off to, because we're mostly talking about what characters are allowed to cast with their Spellcasting features that allow them to cast "your spells," but please note that there are plenty of other features out there, like Arcana Cleric 8's Potent Spellcasting, which just interact with "any cleric cantrip." When a Divine Soul Sorcerer learns Sacred Flame as a charisma-based cantrip associated with their Sorcerer class, and they cast that cantrip in that fashion, I don't accept that there's a RAW way to say that Sacred Flame is not included in "any cleric cantrip" since it appears on the Cleric Spell List. I also think it is one of "your Cleric [cantrips]", but even if there's some angle there where "your" is denied to it, it remains an "any Cleric cantrip."
Since you have explained yourself so well, I will come back to Magic Initiate. I have re-read the feat for this discussion and you make a valid point there, I'm not convinced from that feat's text that it really should give you another known spell. The feat allows you to learn the spell, which is exactly the way that the sorcerer spellcasting feature describes adding a spell to your known spells list (I.e. in my reading "your sorcerer spells"). What the feat does not do, however, is give any text other than choosing a class associated with the feat that associates the spell with a class. Interpreting that a MI<class> spell counts as a <class> spell for you is not stated in the text. There is only a chain of association.
The current SAC ruling must be written from a point of view that the chain of association is sufficient.
I am perfectly okay with interpreting MI the same as other feats, it would actually make things a lot simpler. You could then write a simple summary: You can use your slots on spells learned from spellcasting or pact magic class features. You get to cast those spells with the casting ability of the class through which you selected the spell.
Again, at least DDB disagrees with you. When you actually build a DS sorc 10/ Arcana cleric 10 and start giving it some spells, only the ones that you select as a cleric count as your cleric spells and gain benefits specific to your cleric spells.
CC, dude... buddy... pal... give it up. Your argument has no factual basis. The premise that you are hanging your hat on is that "Class spell list" = "Your Class spells", and that is demonstrably false. Every spellcasting class has a unique CLASS SPELL LIST. This is a static thing; it never changes, and it wholly exists outside the scope of any actual character of that class. Why can a Wizard never (without a specific subclass, feature, feat, etc.) learn Bless as a Wizard spell? Because it is not on the Wizard Class Spell List.
Okay, but what about things that are on the class lists for both Wizard & Sorcerer? If you learned Fireball as a Sorcerer, you can put that into your Wizard spell book (your spells; no change to class spell lists), and cast the spell using Intelligence, because that is the unique feature of Wizard Spellcasting. You would have to follow the procedure to the letter on time/gold to transcribe, but it's otherwise perfectly legal by RAW. The same is not true for a reverse scenario, or frankly any other scenario, because the general rule explicitly dictates that a spell is always attached to the specific class & spellcasting ability it was learned as.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The pieces are all there for you to agree with me... you agree that wizard spells are those on the wizard spell list... you agree those lists are static and always true... you agree that Fireball is both a sorcerer spell and a wizard spell.... you agree that the “associated with” rule in Chapter 6 and the unique natures of prepared vs. known casting is what locks you into charisma or intelligence, despite it being both a wizard spell and a sorcerer spell.... you basically agree on most of the things I’m saying.
But you’re too invested in not agreeing with me, your heart won’t let you put it together to say “if you cast Fireball as a sorcerer spell associated with Charisma, but have a class feature that [does X] when you cast any Wizard spell, it triggers because Fireball is a wizard spell.”
Again, at least DDB disagrees with you. When you actually build a DS sorc 10/ Arcana cleric 10 and start giving it some spells, only the ones that you select as a cleric count as your cleric spells and gain benefits specific to your cleric spells.
“if you cast Fireball as a sorcerer spell associated with Charisma, but have a class feature that [does X] when you cast any Wizard spell, it triggers because Fireball is a wizard spell.”
This is false. You continue to conflate "class spell list" with "your class spells". They are entirely distinct terms. There is NO factual basis for your assertion! None! The version of Fireball you know is not the Wizard one! You know the Sorcerer version of the spell. Unless you've paid the price in time & resources to transcribe that spell into your Wizard spellbook, and subsequently prepare the Wizard version, you do not have the ability to cast Fireball as a Wizard spell. You cannot cast the spell using Intelligence as your Spellcasting ability, and it is ineligible for any features you have which require casting a Wizard spell.
Life Cleric/Divine Soul Sorcerer (Good): Cure Wounds is automatically a prepared spell for both of these subclasses. You have no choice about having this spell double-prepared. Each version is a distinct spell. You know a Cleric version, that is a Cleric spell, which is cast using Wisdom. You know a DSS version, that is a Sorcerer spell, which is cast using Charisma. Having both versions prepared does give you the option of casting whichever version is better in any given situation. An LC/DSS (everything except Good) does not have both a Cleric and Sorcerer version of Cure Wounds prepared by default. They only have the Cleric version; they do not ever have the option of casting this spell using Charisma unless they choose to learn the spell as one of their Sorcerer spells on level up (or swapping it on rest with the UA variant options).
Can the bonus healing from Life Domain's features apply to non-Cleric spells? Yes, because these features are explicit in their requirements, and LD's features trigger off of casting any spell which heals a target. These features do not require the spell be from any particular class. That is not true for all features modifying a spell.
Arcana Cleric/Sorcerer (any): Arcana Domain allows you to choose 2 cantrips from the Wizard spell list, and those 2 spells are learned as Cleric spellsfor you. That does not put those spells on the Cleric spell list. You choose Green-Flame Blade. You know this spell as a Cleric, it counts as a Cleric spell for you, and you cast this spell using Wisdom. The spell is on the Sorcerer spell list, so can you choose to cast the spell using Charisma instead of Wisdom? No, you don't know the Sorcerer version. You only have the option to cast it as a Cleric spell. If you decide to also learn GFB as a Sorcerer, you have the option of casting either distinct version.
Now what about features that trigger off of casting spells as a specific class? Arcana Cleric's Potent Spellcasting lets you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage of any Cleric cantrip that you cast. The Arcana Cleric which chose to learn GFB as a Cleric spell can add their bonus to that damage because the spell--explicitly learned per the level 1 Arcane Initiate class feature--counts as a Cleric spell for them. If the Arcana Cleric/Sorcerer knows both versions of the spell, does Potent Spellcasting apply when they cast GFB using Charisma? No, the feature explicitly works only for their Cleric cantrips. The feature only applies to spells learned as that class.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
DDB coders opinions are worth about as much as yours, mine, or JC’s: not rules.
Sigred, I really feel like you’re playing both sides of the fence when you say that Bless isn’t a wizard spell because it’s not on the wizard spell list, but ALSO that being on the wizard spell list doesn’t mean that Fireball is a wizard spell. Under that usage, NOTHING is a wizard spell until you write it down... which will be impossible, since your Spellbook only lets you write down “wizard spells.”
Until you can seriously self-examine how you’re moving the goal posts in your own arguments, not much point going any further on this subject with you.
Why can a Wizard never (without a specific subclass, feature, feat, etc.) learn Bless as a Wizard spell? Because it is not on the Wizard Class Spell List.
This is what I said. The baseline Wizard does not have any method available to learn spells from the Cleric spell list. As with the very specific example I just wrote about Arcana Clerics--absent an Arcane Tradition/feat/UA variant that explicitly allows for you to learn a spell from a different class spell listas a Wizard spell--a Wizard can never learn a spell that is not on the Wizard spell list. This is so damn simple.
A Wizard that has learned Bless through a dip in another class or Magic Initiate cannot cast that spell as a Wizard spell. It is not eligible for any features that require casting a Wizard spell.
I have moved no goal post. I have been clear this entire time. My argument has been clear the entire time. My evidence is sound. You refuse to accept overwhelming evidence when it is right in front of your face.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm not going to quote your entire post #69, so feel free to go back to edit and cover your tracks, but you are not making points in it based around "your wizard spell." You are talking throughout that post about what is or is not "a Wizard spell."
As I mentioned in #63, what Bees and I have been disagreeing on is twofold:
is "your Wizard spells" the subset of "your spells" (whatever their source) that are on the Wizard Spell List (my view)? Or it instead the subset of Wizard Spell List spells that you have made "yours" by virtue of writing them in your book using Wizard levels and Wizard class features (Bees' view)?
is "a Wizard Spell" or "any Wizard spell" any spell on the Wizard spell list (my view)? Or... something else, not even sure what the alternative could possibly be, since Bees hasn't answered that question, and any other meaning than that makes it impossible for classes to select new spells when they are told to "add wizard spells..." to your spellbook.
You're moving the goalposts in part because every time I talk about #1, you start talking about #2, and vice versa. Either that, or you're just not grasping what the conversation is about.
#1: Some class features key off of what "your wizard spells" are. A Wizard's Spellcasting feature is the main one to talk about here, you cast "your Wizard Spells" using Intelligence. Discussion of whether a Sorcerer-known-Fireball counts as one of "your Wizard Spells" is relevant to answering "can I cast that with Intelligence?" The answer is no, but not necessarily because that Fireball isn't one of "your Wizard spells," but rather because 1) it isn't a prepared spell, and Wizards may only use their Spellcasting feature to cast spells prepared from their spellbook specifically; and 2) Chapter 6 tells us that it is "associated with" your Sorcerer class and Charisma spellcasting. I'll say again, if you want to discuss #1, we need to be comparing multiclass known/known casters, or multiclass prepared/prepared casters, (or even better, a singleclass known caster with a feat like MI or WEM that grants you a "learned" spell) because mixing the two flavors really obfuscates what we're disagreeing about by introducing other independent obstacles.
#2: Other class features keys off of "any wizard spell" you cast. Evocation Wizard 10 is one such feature, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the damage of "any wizard evocation spell you cast." You are arguing that a spell is not "a wizard spell" or "any wizard spell" unless it is also "your wizard spell," and I don't see the textual support for that. In fact, that cannot be the case, because otherwise, a Wizard would be unable to write any spell into their spellbook which was not already written into their spellbook:
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
YOUR SPELLBOOK
The spells that you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as intellectual breakthroughs you have had about the nature of the multiverse. You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard’s chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library.
Copying a Spell into the Book.When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
...
Either spells can be Wizard spells despite not (yet) being your Wizard spells, or a Wizard is wholly unable to write new spells into their book.
We can argue about #1 all day, I acknowledge that Bees' description of what "your wizard spells" might mean may very well be closer to RAI than my own is (though I think RAW more closely supports mine). But nobody has yet presented any coherent argument about #2 that provides any possible meaning for "a wizard spell" or "any wizard spell" other than "spell on the Wizard spell list, and also any spell which a feature explicitly tells you to treat as a Wizard spell."
If you want to start analyzing #2, that's fine, but quit dragging #1 into it, because we can see right there from the quoted language in the Wizard's spellbook section that #2cannot be defined by #1.
Sorry for my long post, let me restate it better. This is my alternative for #2, all spells on the wizard spell list are wizard spells. All spells on the sorcerer spell list are sorcerer spells. However, overlapping spells are different versions of each other. A fireball on the wizard spell list is different than a fireball from the sorcerer spell list. Feats that, for example, grant Wizard spells, grants the wizard version of that spell.
There's no RAW nor RAI that I found was against/supported this, it just fits with what is written while your vision doesn't. Because of this, all I can do is disprove you vision. Although, I haven't gotten to researching this much, so anyone providing counterexamples to my vision would be nice.
Let me provide a counterexample to your vision, it states under both Sorcerer and Wizard Spellcasting Ability that "you use your [Intelligence/Charisma] modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a [wizard/sorcerer] spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one."
So all wizard spells cast uses Intelligence, while all Sorcerer spells cast uses Charisma. How you cast them is irrelevant, just that they are cast in some way. I don't think the others share my viewpoint, and nothing is being learnt from this argument, so don't expect many replies from me.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
is "your Wizard spells" the subset of "your spells" (whatever their source) that are on the Wizard Spell List (my view)? Or it instead the subset of Wizard Spell List spells that you have made "yours" by virtue of writing them in your book using Wizard levels and Wizard class features (Bees' view)?
is "a Wizard Spell" or "any Wizard spell" any spell on the Wizard spell list (my view)? Or... something else, not even sure what the alternative could possibly be, since Bees hasn't answered that question, and any other meaning than that makes it impossible for classes to select new spells when they are told to "add wizard spells..." to your spellbook.
Okay... I can at least see why you think I'm moving goal posts now, and I do apologize for the confusion. Let me clarify: both of those are wrong. Disregard #2 entirely, for "a Wizard spell" & "any Wizard spell" are synonymous with "your Wizard spells". These phrases all refer to the exact same technical definition of what "your Wizard spells" are. I hope what I'm about to write will be clear enough to show you that.
A "Class spell list" is a discrete thing. Follow the link I posted earlier, and you can see that plain as day. A class spell list is simply the list of spells which are available for any character of that class to learn. I.e., the spells that you can learn, while following the normal class progression, are from that list. That list never changes. A standard Wizard--without any regard to Arcane Tradition, feats, magic items, or anything else differentiating a specific PC Wizard from another--can only learn spells that are on that list. This is the same for each and every individual Spellcasting class.
"Your Wizard spells" are the set of spells that you have learned as a Wizard. This includes the spells that you have learned from natural progression in the baseline Wizard class (from the class spell list), spells that are granted to you by your Arcane Tradition (possibly from a different class spell list, but I'm not seeing any traditions that actually grant the Wizard any spells that aren't already on the Wizard spell list...), and any feature granting the PC full use of a spell--that is or is not on the Wizard spell list--explicitly castable as a Wizard.
That last bit is, I think, where the crux of the confusion lies. A spell that you know is not castable as a Wizard just because it's on the Wizard class spell list. The method used to learn the spell matters. A spell that you learn, from a specific source, is always going to be tied to that specific source. When you learn Fireball as a Sorcerer, that is now one of "yourSorcerer spells". You do not have the ability to cast that spell as a Wizard; it is not automatically considered one of "your Wizard spells" just because it's on the class spell list for both Wizard and Sorcerer. You have to learn Fireball as a Wizard for it to be one of your Wizard spells. This is how it works for every single casting class.
A Wizard, specifically, has the ability to add spells to their spellbook as Wizard spells. I made no mention to this above so as to avoid additional confusion on what the general rule is, and because we don't need to have another huge discussion on how that works... bottom line, if the Wizard has the opportunity (blanket statement) to learn/find/whatever a spell which exists on the Wizard class spell list (regardless of whether it's learned/found in the form of a Wizard spell or another class), the spell can be transcribed to the Wizard's spellbook, and subsequently prepared as a Wizard spell. It's not automatic; you still have to convert it to Wizard form in your book, and prepare it as a Wizard spell (counting against your max # of prepared Wizard spells). No features which trigger from casting aWizard spell apply unless you are casting the spell as a Wizard (learned/copied & prepared as a Wizard spell).
In summation, "your/a/any <class> spells" are the spells that your character actually knows and has prepared, which are explicitly tied to the specific class & ability score dictated by the source from which they were acquired.
An Arcana Cleric can learn Green-Flame Bladeas a Cleric spell, despite the fact that it is not on the Cleric class spell list, because that's explicitly what Arcane Initiate dictates. This does not add the spell to the Cleric class spell list, but it does count as one of "your Cleric spells" for that specific character. It is castable as a Cleric spell for that character, and activates effects which trigger off of casting a Cleric spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You're right 4yul, the fact that it says "you use your [stat] modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a [class] spell you cast" is a real problem I'd overlooked until you just pointed that out.
Either:
A) that really could have and should have been written "...for your[class] spells you cast," but the editing failed to use the correct term. This preserves #1 and #2 as being two different concepts; or
B) "a Wizard spell" means two entirely separate things depending on context (either "a Wizard spell" in the sense that's it on the Wizard spell list, which you use when selecting new spells, or sometimes instead one of "your Wizard spells," in the sense that you've learned it as a Wizard and not another class). This means that #2 is sometimes defined by#1 but not always, and would be crappy editing too, since you shouldn't give one game term two different meanings; or
C) you can freely choose to cast a spell with whatever class spellcasting ability you choose that has it on its list (so long as you've satisfied other known vs. prepared caster requirements for that spell). This would also be crappy editing, because it would mean that the the Chapter 6 multiclassing rules really should have said that each spell you have is associated with "one or more of your classes". This is what I think is really what was RAI, but the wording of Chapter 6 absolutely is a problem for that interpretation in its current form.
A, B, or C, the rules have certainly introduced some unnecessary confusion.
Sigred, "a Wizard spell" simply cannot always and only be synonymous with "your Wizard spell," for the reason I've identified several times now relating to learning new spells. While most of the classes that learn spells specifically tell you you can learn new spells from the "[class] spell list", the Wizard in particular just lets you learn new "wizard spells." Nothing in the Wizard class ever tells you to use the Wizard Spell List, other than introducing it in the first section as the repository of "wizard spells."
Spellcasting
As a student of arcane magic, you have a spellbook containing spells that show the first glimmerings of your true power. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the wizard spell list.
If "wizard spells" and "spells from the Wizard spell list" are synonyms (as I've argued), then no problem! But if the "spells on the [class] spell list" is not the same as "[class] spells", then Wizards have a real problem which wholly prevents them from ever learning any other spells.
Wizard: Only learns new "Wizard Spells"
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice....
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free...Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Sorcerer: Learns new "Spells from the sorcerer spell list"
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Warlock: Learns new spells from the "Warlock spell list"
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
At 1st level, you know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the warlock spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Warlock table shows when you learn more warlock spells of your choice of 1st level and higher. A spell you choose must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level. When you reach 6th level, for example, you learn a new warlock spell, which can be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Bard: "Bard spell list"
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know four 1st-level spells of your choice from the bard spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Bard table shows when you learn more bard spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the table. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Ranger: Learns new spells from the "ranger spell list"
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the ranger spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Ranger table shows when you learn more ranger spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 5th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the ranger spells you know and replace it with another spell from the ranger spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
EK: "wizard spell list"
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher
You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list.
AT: "wizard spell list"
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher
You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the enchantment and illusion spells on the wizard spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an enchantment or illusion spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list.
Wow. Maybe only after a few more pages, you might begin to understand context sensitive usages in language. I do think "a wizard spell" can mean "a spell from the wizard spell list" when it is obvious that it means that, such as when you can learn a new wizard spell. I also think that "a wizard spell (that is implied that you can cast)" must also mean a spell that you have selected. We might be getting somewhere. Context is important to natural language.
Chicken_Champ, I can see your confusion but I'm pretty sure Sigred just didn't read what he posted. He literally countered that in his own post.
."A class spell list is simply the list of spells which are available for any character of that class to learn" and "Your Wizard spells" are the set of spells that you have learned as a Wizard"
Sigred presents them as different things, I think they were focused on catching your attention, making a error in the process. Making a large post causes you to overlook these things. Also, you could of provided a simpler answer based off common sense rather than specific wording. We all know Time Stop is a wizard spell, but we wouldn't say it is always your wizard spell, especially if you don't even have Time Stop in your spell-book (i.e level 1 or a level 18+ who doesn't want to waste effort on a eh spell).
Basically you went extremely overboard on a point he wasn't arguing. Although to be fair yeah if he meant to argue that "a wizard spell" and "your wizard spell" was the same, I would definitely tell them off too. Imagine if the spells you have learnt as a wizard were always the same as the entire wizard spell list.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
4yul, Sigred and Bees are both literally and actually saying that they do not agree that "Time Stop is a wizard spell" is true in a general sense, unless you've learned it as a Wizard. That's the whole point, this is not "my confusion" over what they've meant, it's what they've said again and again and again. Directly above you, Bees tells you that he's willing to accept that "Time Stop is a Wizard Spell" in the limited context of asking "what spells can my Wizard learn at level up?," but then never again in any other context if you've instead learned it by virtue of Sorcerer levels. That's an issue for me, because I don't accept that rule terms should mean different things at different time depending on a "context" which may be subjective.
Bees, I understand context sensitive language quite as well as you do, which is why I've been able to so precisely identify the awkward parts where context indicates that term A should have been used, but instead term B has been (mistakenly?) used in its place. If you're now claiming that "a/any/your [class] spell" are all just one muddled context-sensitive phrase, which always just means whatever it should mean at that time, then we're right back to the RAW being wholly ambiguous whether "your Wizard spell" is "your spell, which is printed on the Wizard Spell List" or "your spell, which you learned by virtue of being a Wizard." There is no "context" for which of these is correct, if we throw out any hope that we can trust the rules to tell us what to do and instead just have to trust our gut feelings.
You continue to imply that "your wizard spell" ever means "your spell, which is printed on the Wizard Spell List" without showing any case where there is no question (or even reasonable expectation) that it must. Lets look at a simple example: my wife, who is a mother is not my mother. You have only provided your assumption about a name. I contend that there is never any time where the rules refer to a spell of yours from a particular class and means anything but "your spell, which is associated for you with that class."
The descriptions of each spellcasting feature describes selecting your spells from the class list. Each spellcasting feature sets up a system where you make a secondary list of spells by selecting from the class spell list. This secondary list is a subset, not a superset, of the class list because of how it is constructed and is the only one that is meant when describing the list of class spell of yours or that you can cast.
You are the one always asking for proof. Show the text, please.
4yulming4, without getting into the "wizard spell" vs "sorcerer spell" distinction... you need to be much more precise when throwing around analysis about why a Wizard can't cast his sorcerer spells automatically, and vice versa. The first and largest hurdle to doing that is that Wizards cast spells which they have "prepared" from their spellbook, but do not "know" any spells at all. Meanwhile sorcerers cast spells which they "know," but do not "prepare" any spells at all. This would prevent a Wizard from just casting his sorcerer spells with his wizard spellcasting ability even if all of those sorcerer spells were considered to be wizard spells, and even if the Chapter 6 multiclassing "associated with" rule for spellcasters doesn't actually lock you into associating a spell with one-and-only-one class.
This is why it's rarely productive to have this particular conversation in the context of mixing "known casters" (sorcerers, bards, warlocks, EKs, ATs, paladins, rangers) and "prepared casters" (wizards, clerics, druids, artificers). The spellcasting of each of these two groups is so wholly unlike the other that there is very little shared vocabulary between them to find a common meaning of what "your spells" means, and more often than not, folks gloss over the fundamental differences between the two casting styles.
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What can you cite that makes you think that your sorcerer spells are any spells that you haven't selected?
I don't think that "your sorcerer spells" are spells that you haven't selected, I absolutely agree that "your spell" are certainly only the spells that you [have]. Like above, I'm not 100% on whether "your spells" can gracefully bridge between prepared caster and known caster classes, because the "your spells" of a sorcerer, bard, ranger, etc. are all going to be "yours" because you "know" them, while the "your spells" of a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer are going to be "yours" because you have them prepared (or always treat them as prepared due to your subclass). But then, cantrips bridge that gap, since all casters that have cantrips "know" their cantrips. Oof!
All I am saying is that if you [have] a Bard spell (it is one of "your Bard Spells"), and that spell is also printed on the Sorcerer spell list (or your Sorcerer subclass gives it to you and tells you to treat it as a sorcerer spell despite it not being on that list), then you also [have] it as one of "your Sorcerer Spells." I understand that you instead think that something only becomes "your Sorcerer spell" if you select it from a Sorcerer level-up, or as part of Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) (despite Magic Initiate not saying anywhere in its text that it grants you a class spell, and instead uses language that's pretty much identical to Wood Elf Magic). But as you have acknowledged, your interpretation is no more textually supported than you think my own is, although you may have some good points about it being intended to work that way.
This disagreement about what "cleric spells" and "wizard spells" etc are doesn't start and stop at what "your cleric spells" are. I agree that's the direction that this conversation has spun off to, because we're mostly talking about what characters are allowed to cast with their Spellcasting features that allow them to cast "your spells," but please note that there are plenty of other features out there, like Arcana Cleric 8's Potent Spellcasting, which just interact with "any cleric cantrip." When a Divine Soul Sorcerer learns Sacred Flame as a charisma-based cantrip associated with their Sorcerer class, and they cast that cantrip in that fashion, I don't accept that there's a RAW way to say that Sacred Flame is not included in "any cleric cantrip" since it appears on the Cleric Spell List. I also think it is one of "your Cleric [cantrips]", but even if there's some angle there where "your" is denied to it, it remains an "any Cleric cantrip."
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Lol my bad. I’m a little brain dead after work this week. I’m working off of an iPhone and it’s hard for me to accurately keep up with what’s been posted sometimes off the various pages, even my own.
while I don’t know the RAI when it was written, the direction the unearthed arcana feats that recently came out with combined with the sage advice leads me to believe he’s basically given up on the specifics of the wording to give players what we’ve been talking about.
they seem to be caught in a bit of a design pickle between wanting to enact minor fixes to the game, paying for each errata, not wanting to devalue already printed books, and muddy the community waters with rules changes that seem to have ripple effects lasting years.
I’ll leave the semantics up to you fine individuals.
Since you have explained yourself so well, I will come back to Magic Initiate. I have re-read the feat for this discussion and you make a valid point there, I'm not convinced from that feat's text that it really should give you another known spell. The feat allows you to learn the spell, which is exactly the way that the sorcerer spellcasting feature describes adding a spell to your known spells list (I.e. in my reading "your sorcerer spells"). What the feat does not do, however, is give any text other than choosing a class associated with the feat that associates the spell with a class. Interpreting that a MI<class> spell counts as a <class> spell for you is not stated in the text. There is only a chain of association.
The current SAC ruling must be written from a point of view that the chain of association is sufficient.
I am perfectly okay with interpreting MI the same as other feats, it would actually make things a lot simpler. You could then write a simple summary: You can use your slots on spells learned from spellcasting or pact magic class features. You get to cast those spells with the casting ability of the class through which you selected the spell.
Again, at least DDB disagrees with you. When you actually build a DS sorc 10/ Arcana cleric 10 and start giving it some spells, only the ones that you select as a cleric count as your cleric spells and gain benefits specific to your cleric spells.
CC, dude... buddy... pal... give it up. Your argument has no factual basis. The premise that you are hanging your hat on is that "Class spell list" = "Your Class spells", and that is demonstrably false. Every spellcasting class has a unique CLASS SPELL LIST. This is a static thing; it never changes, and it wholly exists outside the scope of any actual character of that class. Why can a Wizard never (without a specific subclass, feature, feat, etc.) learn Bless as a Wizard spell? Because it is not on the Wizard Class Spell List.
Okay, but what about things that are on the class lists for both Wizard & Sorcerer? If you learned Fireball as a Sorcerer, you can put that into your Wizard spell book (your spells; no change to class spell lists), and cast the spell using Intelligence, because that is the unique feature of Wizard Spellcasting. You would have to follow the procedure to the letter on time/gold to transcribe, but it's otherwise perfectly legal by RAW. The same is not true for a reverse scenario, or frankly any other scenario, because the general rule explicitly dictates that a spell is always attached to the specific class & spellcasting ability it was learned as.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The pieces are all there for you to agree with me... you agree that wizard spells are those on the wizard spell list... you agree those lists are static and always true... you agree that Fireball is both a sorcerer spell and a wizard spell.... you agree that the “associated with” rule in Chapter 6 and the unique natures of prepared vs. known casting is what locks you into charisma or intelligence, despite it being both a wizard spell and a sorcerer spell.... you basically agree on most of the things I’m saying.
But you’re too invested in not agreeing with me, your heart won’t let you put it together to say “if you cast Fireball as a sorcerer spell associated with Charisma, but have a class feature that [does X] when you cast any Wizard spell, it triggers because Fireball is a wizard spell.”
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Again, at least DDB disagrees with you. When you actually build a DS sorc 10/ Arcana cleric 10 and start giving it some spells, only the ones that you select as a cleric count as your cleric spells and gain benefits specific to your cleric spells.
This is false. You continue to conflate "class spell list" with "your class spells". They are entirely distinct terms. There is NO factual basis for your assertion! None! The version of Fireball you know is not the Wizard one! You know the Sorcerer version of the spell. Unless you've paid the price in time & resources to transcribe that spell into your Wizard spellbook, and subsequently prepare the Wizard version, you do not have the ability to cast Fireball as a Wizard spell. You cannot cast the spell using Intelligence as your Spellcasting ability, and it is ineligible for any features you have which require casting a Wizard spell.
Life Cleric/Divine Soul Sorcerer (Good): Cure Wounds is automatically a prepared spell for both of these subclasses. You have no choice about having this spell double-prepared. Each version is a distinct spell. You know a Cleric version, that is a Cleric spell, which is cast using Wisdom. You know a DSS version, that is a Sorcerer spell, which is cast using Charisma. Having both versions prepared does give you the option of casting whichever version is better in any given situation. An LC/DSS (everything except Good) does not have both a Cleric and Sorcerer version of Cure Wounds prepared by default. They only have the Cleric version; they do not ever have the option of casting this spell using Charisma unless they choose to learn the spell as one of their Sorcerer spells on level up (or swapping it on rest with the UA variant options).
Can the bonus healing from Life Domain's features apply to non-Cleric spells? Yes, because these features are explicit in their requirements, and LD's features trigger off of casting any spell which heals a target. These features do not require the spell be from any particular class. That is not true for all features modifying a spell.
Arcana Cleric/Sorcerer (any): Arcana Domain allows you to choose 2 cantrips from the Wizard spell list, and those 2 spells are learned as Cleric spells for you. That does not put those spells on the Cleric spell list. You choose Green-Flame Blade. You know this spell as a Cleric, it counts as a Cleric spell for you, and you cast this spell using Wisdom. The spell is on the Sorcerer spell list, so can you choose to cast the spell using Charisma instead of Wisdom? No, you don't know the Sorcerer version. You only have the option to cast it as a Cleric spell. If you decide to also learn GFB as a Sorcerer, you have the option of casting either distinct version.
Now what about features that trigger off of casting spells as a specific class? Arcana Cleric's Potent Spellcasting lets you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage of any Cleric cantrip that you cast. The Arcana Cleric which chose to learn GFB as a Cleric spell can add their bonus to that damage because the spell--explicitly learned per the level 1 Arcane Initiate class feature--counts as a Cleric spell for them. If the Arcana Cleric/Sorcerer knows both versions of the spell, does Potent Spellcasting apply when they cast GFB using Charisma? No, the feature explicitly works only for their Cleric cantrips. The feature only applies to spells learned as that class.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
DDB coders opinions are worth about as much as yours, mine, or JC’s: not rules.
Sigred, I really feel like you’re playing both sides of the fence when you say that Bless isn’t a wizard spell because it’s not on the wizard spell list, but ALSO that being on the wizard spell list doesn’t mean that Fireball is a wizard spell. Under that usage, NOTHING is a wizard spell until you write it down... which will be impossible, since your Spellbook only lets you write down “wizard spells.”
Until you can seriously self-examine how you’re moving the goal posts in your own arguments, not much point going any further on this subject with you.
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You are still conflating what "your Wizard spells" and the "Wizard spell list" are.
This is what I said. The baseline Wizard does not have any method available to learn spells from the Cleric spell list. As with the very specific example I just wrote about Arcana Clerics--absent an Arcane Tradition/feat/UA variant that explicitly allows for you to learn a spell from a different class spell list as a Wizard spell--a Wizard can never learn a spell that is not on the Wizard spell list. This is so damn simple.
A Wizard that has learned Bless through a dip in another class or Magic Initiate cannot cast that spell as a Wizard spell. It is not eligible for any features that require casting a Wizard spell.
I have moved no goal post. I have been clear this entire time. My argument has been clear the entire time. My evidence is sound. You refuse to accept overwhelming evidence when it is right in front of your face.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm not going to quote your entire post #69, so feel free to go back to edit and cover your tracks, but you are not making points in it based around "your wizard spell." You are talking throughout that post about what is or is not "a Wizard spell."
As I mentioned in #63, what Bees and I have been disagreeing on is twofold:
You're moving the goalposts in part because every time I talk about #1, you start talking about #2, and vice versa. Either that, or you're just not grasping what the conversation is about.
#1: Some class features key off of what "your wizard spells" are. A Wizard's Spellcasting feature is the main one to talk about here, you cast "your Wizard Spells" using Intelligence. Discussion of whether a Sorcerer-known-Fireball counts as one of "your Wizard Spells" is relevant to answering "can I cast that with Intelligence?" The answer is no, but not necessarily because that Fireball isn't one of "your Wizard spells," but rather because 1) it isn't a prepared spell, and Wizards may only use their Spellcasting feature to cast spells prepared from their spellbook specifically; and 2) Chapter 6 tells us that it is "associated with" your Sorcerer class and Charisma spellcasting. I'll say again, if you want to discuss #1, we need to be comparing multiclass known/known casters, or multiclass prepared/prepared casters, (or even better, a singleclass known caster with a feat like MI or WEM that grants you a "learned" spell) because mixing the two flavors really obfuscates what we're disagreeing about by introducing other independent obstacles.
#2: Other class features keys off of "any wizard spell" you cast. Evocation Wizard 10 is one such feature, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the damage of "any wizard evocation spell you cast." You are arguing that a spell is not "a wizard spell" or "any wizard spell" unless it is also "your wizard spell," and I don't see the textual support for that. In fact, that cannot be the case, because otherwise, a Wizard would be unable to write any spell into their spellbook which was not already written into their spellbook:
Either spells can be Wizard spells despite not (yet) being your Wizard spells, or a Wizard is wholly unable to write new spells into their book.
We can argue about #1 all day, I acknowledge that Bees' description of what "your wizard spells" might mean may very well be closer to RAI than my own is (though I think RAW more closely supports mine). But nobody has yet presented any coherent argument about #2 that provides any possible meaning for "a wizard spell" or "any wizard spell" other than "spell on the Wizard spell list, and also any spell which a feature explicitly tells you to treat as a Wizard spell."
If you want to start analyzing #2, that's fine, but quit dragging #1 into it, because we can see right there from the quoted language in the Wizard's spellbook section that #2 cannot be defined by #1.
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Sorry for my long post, let me restate it better. This is my alternative for #2, all spells on the wizard spell list are wizard spells. All spells on the sorcerer spell list are sorcerer spells. However, overlapping spells are different versions of each other. A fireball on the wizard spell list is different than a fireball from the sorcerer spell list. Feats that, for example, grant Wizard spells, grants the wizard version of that spell.
There's no RAW nor RAI that I found was against/supported this, it just fits with what is written while your vision doesn't. Because of this, all I can do is disprove you vision. Although, I haven't gotten to researching this much, so anyone providing counterexamples to my vision would be nice.
Let me provide a counterexample to your vision, it states under both Sorcerer and Wizard Spellcasting Ability that "you use your [Intelligence/Charisma] modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a [wizard/sorcerer] spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one."
So all wizard spells cast uses Intelligence, while all Sorcerer spells cast uses Charisma. How you cast them is irrelevant, just that they are cast in some way. I don't think the others share my viewpoint, and nothing is being learnt from this argument, so don't expect many replies from me.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Okay... I can at least see why you think I'm moving goal posts now, and I do apologize for the confusion. Let me clarify: both of those are wrong. Disregard #2 entirely, for "a Wizard spell" & "any Wizard spell" are synonymous with "your Wizard spells". These phrases all refer to the exact same technical definition of what "your Wizard spells" are. I hope what I'm about to write will be clear enough to show you that.
A "Class spell list" is a discrete thing. Follow the link I posted earlier, and you can see that plain as day. A class spell list is simply the list of spells which are available for any character of that class to learn. I.e., the spells that you can learn, while following the normal class progression, are from that list. That list never changes. A standard Wizard--without any regard to Arcane Tradition, feats, magic items, or anything else differentiating a specific PC Wizard from another--can only learn spells that are on that list. This is the same for each and every individual Spellcasting class.
"Your Wizard spells" are the set of spells that you have learned as a Wizard. This includes the spells that you have learned from natural progression in the baseline Wizard class (from the class spell list), spells that are granted to you by your Arcane Tradition (possibly from a different class spell list, but I'm not seeing any traditions that actually grant the Wizard any spells that aren't already on the Wizard spell list...), and any feature granting the PC full use of a spell--that is or is not on the Wizard spell list--explicitly castable as a Wizard.
That last bit is, I think, where the crux of the confusion lies. A spell that you know is not castable as a Wizard just because it's on the Wizard class spell list. The method used to learn the spell matters. A spell that you learn, from a specific source, is always going to be tied to that specific source. When you learn Fireball as a Sorcerer, that is now one of "your Sorcerer spells". You do not have the ability to cast that spell as a Wizard; it is not automatically considered one of "your Wizard spells" just because it's on the class spell list for both Wizard and Sorcerer. You have to learn Fireball as a Wizard for it to be one of your Wizard spells. This is how it works for every single casting class.
A Wizard, specifically, has the ability to add spells to their spellbook as Wizard spells. I made no mention to this above so as to avoid additional confusion on what the general rule is, and because we don't need to have another huge discussion on how that works... bottom line, if the Wizard has the opportunity (blanket statement) to learn/find/whatever a spell which exists on the Wizard class spell list (regardless of whether it's learned/found in the form of a Wizard spell or another class), the spell can be transcribed to the Wizard's spellbook, and subsequently prepared as a Wizard spell. It's not automatic; you still have to convert it to Wizard form in your book, and prepare it as a Wizard spell (counting against your max # of prepared Wizard spells). No features which trigger from casting a Wizard spell apply unless you are casting the spell as a Wizard (learned/copied & prepared as a Wizard spell).
In summation, "your/a/any <class> spells" are the spells that your character actually knows and has prepared, which are explicitly tied to the specific class & ability score dictated by the source from which they were acquired.
An Arcana Cleric can learn Green-Flame Blade as a Cleric spell, despite the fact that it is not on the Cleric class spell list, because that's explicitly what Arcane Initiate dictates. This does not add the spell to the Cleric class spell list, but it does count as one of "your Cleric spells" for that specific character. It is castable as a Cleric spell for that character, and activates effects which trigger off of casting a Cleric spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You're right 4yul, the fact that it says "you use your [stat] modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a [class] spell you cast" is a real problem I'd overlooked until you just pointed that out.
Either:
A) that really could have and should have been written "...for your [class] spells you cast," but the editing failed to use the correct term. This preserves #1 and #2 as being two different concepts; or
B) "a Wizard spell" means two entirely separate things depending on context (either "a Wizard spell" in the sense that's it on the Wizard spell list, which you use when selecting new spells, or sometimes instead one of "your Wizard spells," in the sense that you've learned it as a Wizard and not another class). This means that #2 is sometimes defined by #1 but not always, and would be crappy editing too, since you shouldn't give one game term two different meanings; or
C) you can freely choose to cast a spell with whatever class spellcasting ability you choose that has it on its list (so long as you've satisfied other known vs. prepared caster requirements for that spell). This would also be crappy editing, because it would mean that the the Chapter 6 multiclassing rules really should have said that each spell you have is associated with "one or more of your classes". This is what I think is really what was RAI, but the wording of Chapter 6 absolutely is a problem for that interpretation in its current form.
A, B, or C, the rules have certainly introduced some unnecessary confusion.
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Sigred, "a Wizard spell" simply cannot always and only be synonymous with "your Wizard spell," for the reason I've identified several times now relating to learning new spells. While most of the classes that learn spells specifically tell you you can learn new spells from the "[class] spell list", the Wizard in particular just lets you learn new "wizard spells." Nothing in the Wizard class ever tells you to use the Wizard Spell List, other than introducing it in the first section as the repository of "wizard spells."
If "wizard spells" and "spells from the Wizard spell list" are synonyms (as I've argued), then no problem! But if the "spells on the [class] spell list" is not the same as "[class] spells", then Wizards have a real problem which wholly prevents them from ever learning any other spells.
Wizard: Only learns new "Wizard Spells"
Sorcerer: Learns new "Spells from the sorcerer spell list"
Warlock: Learns new spells from the "Warlock spell list"
Bard: "Bard spell list"
Ranger: Learns new spells from the "ranger spell list"
EK: "wizard spell list"
AT: "wizard spell list"
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Wow. Maybe only after a few more pages, you might begin to understand context sensitive usages in language. I do think "a wizard spell" can mean "a spell from the wizard spell list" when it is obvious that it means that, such as when you can learn a new wizard spell. I also think that "a wizard spell (that is implied that you can cast)" must also mean a spell that you have selected. We might be getting somewhere. Context is important to natural language.
Chicken_Champ, I can see your confusion but I'm pretty sure Sigred just didn't read what he posted. He literally countered that in his own post.
."A class spell list is simply the list of spells which are available for any character of that class to learn" and "Your Wizard spells" are the set of spells that you have learned as a Wizard"
Sigred presents them as different things, I think they were focused on catching your attention, making a error in the process. Making a large post causes you to overlook these things. Also, you could of provided a simpler answer based off common sense rather than specific wording. We all know Time Stop is a wizard spell, but we wouldn't say it is always your wizard spell, especially if you don't even have Time Stop in your spell-book (i.e level 1 or a level 18+ who doesn't want to waste effort on a eh spell).
Basically you went extremely overboard on a point he wasn't arguing. Although to be fair yeah if he meant to argue that "a wizard spell" and "your wizard spell" was the same, I would definitely tell them off too. Imagine if the spells you have learnt as a wizard were always the same as the entire wizard spell list.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
4yul, Sigred and Bees are both literally and actually saying that they do not agree that "Time Stop is a wizard spell" is true in a general sense, unless you've learned it as a Wizard. That's the whole point, this is not "my confusion" over what they've meant, it's what they've said again and again and again. Directly above you, Bees tells you that he's willing to accept that "Time Stop is a Wizard Spell" in the limited context of asking "what spells can my Wizard learn at level up?," but then never again in any other context if you've instead learned it by virtue of Sorcerer levels. That's an issue for me, because I don't accept that rule terms should mean different things at different time depending on a "context" which may be subjective.
Bees, I understand context sensitive language quite as well as you do, which is why I've been able to so precisely identify the awkward parts where context indicates that term A should have been used, but instead term B has been (mistakenly?) used in its place. If you're now claiming that "a/any/your [class] spell" are all just one muddled context-sensitive phrase, which always just means whatever it should mean at that time, then we're right back to the RAW being wholly ambiguous whether "your Wizard spell" is "your spell, which is printed on the Wizard Spell List" or "your spell, which you learned by virtue of being a Wizard." There is no "context" for which of these is correct, if we throw out any hope that we can trust the rules to tell us what to do and instead just have to trust our gut feelings.
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You continue to imply that "your wizard spell" ever means "your spell, which is printed on the Wizard Spell List" without showing any case where there is no question (or even reasonable expectation) that it must. Lets look at a simple example: my wife, who is a mother is not my mother. You have only provided your assumption about a name. I contend that there is never any time where the rules refer to a spell of yours from a particular class and means anything but "your spell, which is associated for you with that class."
The descriptions of each spellcasting feature describes selecting your spells from the class list. Each spellcasting feature sets up a system where you make a secondary list of spells by selecting from the class spell list. This secondary list is a subset, not a superset, of the class list because of how it is constructed and is the only one that is meant when describing the list of class spell of yours or that you can cast.
You are the one always asking for proof. Show the text, please.