So.. I believe this is my first post here… hazzah? I’m about to enter a campaign where the DM is a rule nazi. “If it’s not in the book, it must be broken” type of thing. I love the game, but to me, it seems to be too geared to magic users. Classes that benefit from Dex/Con/ and whatever their magic ability is. The point array is geared towards that end. 15,15,15,8,8,8 gives you three good abilities, with crapola for the other three. But what if you want to just pound people with your assassin rogue? I don’t need that third ability. I’d rather have two great abilities (eg. Dex & Con) as opposed to three good ones. I came up with the following point array. Let me know if you feel it’s “broken” or if it’s a damn good idea. Still using the 27 point total:.
Using this array, you can still have your 15,15,15,8,8,8 to make your magic users happy, BUT you can also try 18,18,9,8,8,8 for your melee or ranged fighter.
One of the intentions of the point array and point buy limitations is to prevent first level characters from starting with an 18 in a stat at level 1. There are characters that only really need one stat, two stats or three stats. The point buy arrays limit all of them to a maximum of 17 as a starting stat. The earliest that they can get an 18 is level 4 and a 20 is typically level 6 for a fighter or 8 for everyone else. By delaying the higher stats, it keeps the characters within a range of the 5e idea of bounded accuracy.
Allowing an 18 starting stat is more or less equivalent to letting the character start with level 4 stats. A 20 starting score is more like a level 8 (and that assumes that they don't take feats). There are a lot of character builds that may not obtain a 20 in their primary stat until level 12 or later depending on their choice of feats.
In your modified point buy array, you have 18 as a starting value which after racial adjustments could be a 20 at level 1 - equivalent to a level 8 character in terms of the modifiers due to stats. The DC for spell casters would be two higher. The to hit will be two higher. If you boost dex to 20 then AC, to hit, initiative and all dex based skills will be two higher.
This allows for characters that are more above the power curve for 5e at a given level. It won't break anything (you are only talking about a +1 or +2 difference compared to the baseline) but it will make the character more effective at spells, skills and combat related to that stat.
Personally, I don't like the idea of starting with an 18 or 20 stat at level 1 since it takes away from "growing" the character as they level up - the trade offs between stats and feats. However, if your DM wants to allow it then go for it since they will simply adjust the encounters making them more challenging to deal with the higher stats.
Another thing to mention is that you really don't need to have stats that high, and you're shooting yourself in the foot by having 3 dump stats. With point buy, you're severely handicapping your character's overall abilities because point-buy isn't a 1:1 ratio.
Experienced players & DMs typically recommend that, if you really want to optimize your main stat, have at most one dump stat. All of your ability scores matter in a well-rounded campaign. You will run into situations where you'll need to make ability checks for things that you might not be skilled in... stealth, athletics, acrobatics, history, arcana, perception, insight, deception, persuasion... these all tend come up regularly, and you can't always assume another party member can cover it--you might all need to pass an ability check for a positive outcome, or to avoid a negative one. Saving throws are going to happen, and you don't want to be sitting with 3 different saves that all have a negative-to-low modifier to them.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you want players to be a little more powerful at level 1 without breaking things, you could use point buy and grant them a first level ASI (not a feat, just a +2 to one stat or +1 to two stats)
It's worth noting, David, that a lot of what you see with stuff like this, with the Crash 77 generation my own tables use, with the "More Generous Standard Array" Dungeon Dudes recommend, and more, is that there is no "trade-off" between stats and feats. With the exception of maybe four or five Must Have Combat Feats which are so overpowered they just show up in every build, standard array/point buy both assume that every goddamned ASI ever is an ASI, and anyone who takes a feat at any point is behind the power curve. The overwhelming majority of standard feats are not worth sacrificing an ASI unless you have an extremely specific, focused, build-defining reason for that feat, at which point you either puke into your Wheaties and play variant human again, or you suffer until level 4 and end up behind the curve for the rest of the game to do it.
Given how absolutely, utterly starved for meaningful choice most character classes are after third level (hint: the warlock is the ONLY CLASS IN THE GAME with meaningful decisions post third level. Spell selection only half counts for most casters), that sense of being forced to take a simple, boring stat bump every single time you snag an ASI feels awful. Enhanced starting stats is one way of giving characters the breathing room they need to take interesting, flavorful abilities instead of "WHELP guess I'll just max my saving-throw abilities I guess..." So is the method I prefer of allowing characters to take an ASI and a feat at each ASI level, or allowing characters to obtain training in-game for feats with the multiple years of downtime and many thousands of gold the books suggest.
Anyways. Yes, alternate point buy as proposed is not great. It misses much of the reasoning behind point buy and also leads to you stabbing yourself in the foot. No amount of amazeballs Dex is worth having four negative modifiers, no matter how much the minmaxing munchkin in your brain salivates at those super-high starting scores. Not Worth. I very much enjoy playing with one really weak score, 7 or lower (and not just in Strength), but playing with a character that's so lopsided it's barely functional is maybe not so cool.
Given how absolutely, utterly starved for meaningful choice most character classes are after third level (hint: the warlock is the ONLY CLASS IN THE GAME with meaningful decisions post third level. Spell selection only half counts for most casters), that sense of being forced to take a simple, boring stat bump every single time you snag an ASI feels awful.
So.. I believe this is my first post here… hazzah? I’m about to enter a campaign where the DM is a rule nazi. “If it’s not in the book, it must be broken” type of thing. I love the game, but to me, it seems to be too geared to magic users. Classes that benefit from Dex/Con/ and whatever their magic ability is. The point array is geared towards that end. 15,15,15,8,8,8 gives you three good abilities, with crapola for the other three. But what if you want to just pound people with your assassin rogue? I don’t need that third ability. I’d rather have two great abilities (eg. Dex & Con) as opposed to three good ones. I came up with the following point array. Let me know if you feel it’s “broken” or if it’s a damn good idea. Still using the 27 point total:.
8 = 1 point; 9 = 2 points; 10 = 3 points; 11 = 4 points; 12 = 5 points; 13 = 6 points; 14 = 7 points; 15 = 8 points; 16 = 9 points; 17 = 10 points; & 18 = 11 points.
Using this array, you can still have your 15,15,15,8,8,8 to make your magic users happy, BUT you can also try 18,18,9,8,8,8 for your melee or ranged fighter.
Please give me your thoughts?
One of the intentions of the point array and point buy limitations is to prevent first level characters from starting with an 18 in a stat at level 1. There are characters that only really need one stat, two stats or three stats. The point buy arrays limit all of them to a maximum of 17 as a starting stat. The earliest that they can get an 18 is level 4 and a 20 is typically level 6 for a fighter or 8 for everyone else. By delaying the higher stats, it keeps the characters within a range of the 5e idea of bounded accuracy.
Allowing an 18 starting stat is more or less equivalent to letting the character start with level 4 stats. A 20 starting score is more like a level 8 (and that assumes that they don't take feats). There are a lot of character builds that may not obtain a 20 in their primary stat until level 12 or later depending on their choice of feats.
In your modified point buy array, you have 18 as a starting value which after racial adjustments could be a 20 at level 1 - equivalent to a level 8 character in terms of the modifiers due to stats. The DC for spell casters would be two higher. The to hit will be two higher. If you boost dex to 20 then AC, to hit, initiative and all dex based skills will be two higher.
This allows for characters that are more above the power curve for 5e at a given level. It won't break anything (you are only talking about a +1 or +2 difference compared to the baseline) but it will make the character more effective at spells, skills and combat related to that stat.
Personally, I don't like the idea of starting with an 18 or 20 stat at level 1 since it takes away from "growing" the character as they level up - the trade offs between stats and feats. However, if your DM wants to allow it then go for it since they will simply adjust the encounters making them more challenging to deal with the higher stats.
David, thanks for the input. The aforementioned DM has the same thoughts as you do. I guess I'll concede... this time... lol
Another thing to mention is that you really don't need to have stats that high, and you're shooting yourself in the foot by having 3 dump stats. With point buy, you're severely handicapping your character's overall abilities because point-buy isn't a 1:1 ratio.
Experienced players & DMs typically recommend that, if you really want to optimize your main stat, have at most one dump stat. All of your ability scores matter in a well-rounded campaign. You will run into situations where you'll need to make ability checks for things that you might not be skilled in... stealth, athletics, acrobatics, history, arcana, perception, insight, deception, persuasion... these all tend come up regularly, and you can't always assume another party member can cover it--you might all need to pass an ability check for a positive outcome, or to avoid a negative one. Saving throws are going to happen, and you don't want to be sitting with 3 different saves that all have a negative-to-low modifier to them.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'll take your advice, Sigred. I'll level the stats with 13s and 12s to start and see how that plays out. Thanks.
If you want players to be a little more powerful at level 1 without breaking things, you could use point buy and grant them a first level ASI (not a feat, just a +2 to one stat or +1 to two stats)
It's worth noting, David, that a lot of what you see with stuff like this, with the Crash 77 generation my own tables use, with the "More Generous Standard Array" Dungeon Dudes recommend, and more, is that there is no "trade-off" between stats and feats. With the exception of maybe four or five Must Have Combat Feats which are so overpowered they just show up in every build, standard array/point buy both assume that every goddamned ASI ever is an ASI, and anyone who takes a feat at any point is behind the power curve. The overwhelming majority of standard feats are not worth sacrificing an ASI unless you have an extremely specific, focused, build-defining reason for that feat, at which point you either puke into your Wheaties and play variant human again, or you suffer until level 4 and end up behind the curve for the rest of the game to do it.
Given how absolutely, utterly starved for meaningful choice most character classes are after third level (hint: the warlock is the ONLY CLASS IN THE GAME with meaningful decisions post third level. Spell selection only half counts for most casters), that sense of being forced to take a simple, boring stat bump every single time you snag an ASI feels awful. Enhanced starting stats is one way of giving characters the breathing room they need to take interesting, flavorful abilities instead of "WHELP guess I'll just max my saving-throw abilities I guess..." So is the method I prefer of allowing characters to take an ASI and a feat at each ASI level, or allowing characters to obtain training in-game for feats with the multiple years of downtime and many thousands of gold the books suggest.
Anyways. Yes, alternate point buy as proposed is not great. It misses much of the reasoning behind point buy and also leads to you stabbing yourself in the foot. No amount of amazeballs Dex is worth having four negative modifiers, no matter how much the minmaxing munchkin in your brain salivates at those super-high starting scores. Not Worth. I very much enjoy playing with one really weak score, 7 or lower (and not just in Strength), but playing with a character that's so lopsided it's barely functional is maybe not so cool.
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Preach it brother!
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