I am curious as to how passive investigation works. To me the idea of investigating was an action someone actively takes, I don't see how someone passively investigates. I get why there is a passive perception, because just wondering around the city with my headphones in my ears listening to music, I am still going to perceive things around me, but to passively investigate I just don't see how that works. If someone could let me know how they play it or maybe this is just me and I am getting a lot of people face palming as they read this. lol
People often make intuitive inductive leaps without actually sitting down and actively thinking about a problem. I’d run passive investigation as being that “Eureka! Here’s what I think happened...” moment.
People often make intuitive inductive leaps without actually sitting down and actively thinking about a problem. I’d run passive investigation as being that “Eureka! Here’s what I think happened...” moment.
That’s when I use “Passive Insight” with Int instead of Wis.
I am curious as to how passive investigation works. To me the idea of investigating was an action someone actively takes, I don't see how someone passively investigates. I get why there is a passive perception, because just wondering around the city with my headphones in my ears listening to music, I am still going to perceive things around me, but to passively investigate I just don't see how that works. If someone could let me know how they play it or maybe this is just me and I am getting a lot of people face palming as they read this. lol
I agree with you 100%, I get the feeling that “passive investigation” is there to give the high Int/low Wis characters a chance too.
People often make intuitive inductive leaps without actually sitting down and actively thinking about a problem. I’d run passive investigation as being that “Eureka! Here’s what I think happened...” moment.
That’s when I use “Passive Insight” with Int instead of Wis.
By the skill descriptions in the PHB, insight is about reading people, not inductive reasoning (which is explicitly what investigation is for). To be clear, I’m absolutely not criticizing your call here; going off-book is cool and good, I just think it’s worth mentioning that that’s what we’re doing in the context of someone asking for advice.
People often make intuitive inductive leaps without actually sitting down and actively thinking about a problem. I’d run passive investigation as being that “Eureka! Here’s what I think happened...” moment.
That’s when I use “Passive Insight” with Int instead of Wis.
By the skill descriptions in the PHB, insight is about reading people, not inductive reasoning (which is explicitly what investigation is for). To be clear, I’m absolutely not criticizing your call here; going off-book is cool and good, I just think it’s worth mentioning that that’s what we’re doing in the context of someone asking for advice.
True. But I have to agree with the OP, how one would “investigate” “passively” I have no idea.
The PHB describes an Investigation check as looking around for clues and making deductions based on those clues. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
For Passive Investigation I would say you could spot some of the clues without actively looking provided the passive score is higher than the DC of the clue(s). Passive Investigation can also apply to traps. Perception can be used to notice the trap and Investigation can be used to know how to disarm it. If your Passive Investigation were high enough you would know how to disarm it without the need for an Investigation check.
The only passive score I use is perception. And even with perception, we have had some long philosophical debates about how a DM should handle a character with high passive perception. I'm not saying passive investigation is not a thing--I'm just saying I don't use it because I don't see where it would be appropriate in a game I run without a character making a an active investigation skill check.
The only passive score I use is perception. And even with perception, we have had some long philosophical debates about how a DM should handle a character with high passive perception. I'm not saying passive investigation is not a thing--I'm just saying I don't use it because I don't see where it would be appropriate in a game I run without a character making a an active investigation skill check.
Agreed, but I do use passive (Insight). I used to be in sales. Trust me, passive Insight is a thing. I can also see reasons to use something like passive (Acrobatics) for things like keeping balance, or passive Constitution (Athletics) for things like running a marathon, or swimming across a chasm.
I've never DM'd but my understanding of it is that a passive investigation is when an otherwise insignificant detail basically jumps out at you as being off.
You don't necessarily draw a full conclusion instantly but it prompts your attention that further consideration is necessary.
Passive Perception might be seeing a crack in a cave wall as you walk past it. Passive Investigation might be noticing this crack in the wall couldn't possibly have formed naturally.
Passive perception might let you see an assassin hiding in the shadows. Passive investigation might let you realize at a glance that the shadows in the room are pointing in the wrong direction.
One more thing to possibly clarify. Passive (as in passive perception, passive investigation or any "passive" skill) does not refer to the character's actions, it refers to the player's actions. A player is passive if they are not rolling dice. That is all. Passive perception is not your ability to perceive things when you aren't paying attention, it is your ability to perceive things when the DM decides that they aren't rolling dice to resolve a skill check.
Rules references:
"PASSIVE CHECKS A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster." PHB p175
One example used above is searching for secret doors over and over again. The character IS searching. The character is actively searching for hidden doors but their passive ability can be used to determine whether they automatically find the hidden door. If their passive score is insufficient to succeed at the task then the DM could decide to ask the player for a die roll to resolve it. In this case the player is making an Active check. In both cases, the CHARACTER is actively searching.
In terms of using passive perception. Characters are always assumed to be aware and looking around unless they are doing something else. For example, the rules on traveling indicate that characters use passive perception to notice ambushes etc EXCEPT when the character is performing any other action.
"NOTICING THREATS Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot. While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a -5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats." PHB 182
"OTHER ACTIVITIES Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats." PHB 183
Trap example from Lost Mines of Phandelver:
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
In this example, an actively searching character gets to use their passive perception while someone who isn't searching or a searching character whos perception is too low rolls an active check.
Passive does NOT mean the character is passive. It means the player is passive by not rolling dice.
-------
However, all that said, the D&D materials aren't consistent in their usage. Some examples in modules and elsewhere use it the same as the OP despite the base rule in the PHB stating that passive checks are for repeated tasks or when the DM doesn't want the character to roll dice.
In general, I use passive skills whenever they make sense.
1) If I have two characters, a level 3 rogue, proficient with thieves tools with a 16 dexterity for a +5 modifier and a fighter with 0 dexterity mod and no proficiency and a lock with a DC 13. I'll just narrate the rogue successfully opening the lock rather than requiring a die roll in which the fighter who has no idea what they are doing open the lock with 13 roll while the knowledgeable rogue fails rolling a 7. In this case, I would just narrate the success for the ROGUE unless there is a time limit or failure has consequences. If failing sets of a trap or could damage the thieves tools, they have to roll. If they only have a couple of combat rounds to open the lock then they roll. However, if there is no time limit and no consequences then the party will eventually be able to open a DC13 lock - they have the skills. On the other hand, they might not be able to open a DC 18 lock - which requires rolls by everyone who wants to try.
2) Similarly, if a party is searching a desk for hidden compartments this might be an investigation check. I could call for a roll but they fail. Do they then just wander off without having found anything? What happens if a character says "I'm sure there is something there. I search for 10 minutes!" Do I ask for 100 die rolls? In this circumstance if they have said they will search thoroughly (i.e. repeatedly), there is no time limit and no consequence for failure - I will resolve it with a passive investigation check.
This approach also makes the Observant feat with a bonus only to passive perception and passive investigation actually meaningful. In situations where your time to investigate is not limited and you can keep looking then, as a DM, I can choose to use the passive skill to resolve the outcome of a particular task done repeatedly.
3) In a similar way, if you are listening closely to another character, I might apply passive insight to determine whether you generally believe/trust them or not. On the other hand, if the other person makes one particular statement and you are trying to assess it that would usually be a die roll since judging the particular statement is not a task done repeatedly.
4) Usually, you don't use passive acrobatics or athletics for example because there is often a consequence in terms of falling. On the other hand, if they can't be hurt by falling, I might use the passive skills to let them hike up a mountain or similar task that they will likely succeed at given enough time and no consequences for failure (though for endurance I might use a passive constitution check ... or Athletics (constitution))"
The PHB describes an Investigation check as looking around for clues and making deductions based on those clues.
For example
If a character has a high passive WIS (Perception) then the GM might allow them to notice a secret door based on faint scratches on the floor, or on a faint breeze percieved by the character.
If another character has a high passive INT (Investigation) then the GM might allow them to notice the door based on an inconsistency with wall widths in this part of the dungeon, or on the behaviour of a foe they were following ("They went this way then disappeared, I deduce that there must be a secret door and it must be... there!").
My simple rule of thumb: If you are not yet aware of a thing, it's perception. If you are checking out a thing you are already aware of, it's investigation.
My simple rule of thumb: If you are not yet aware of a thing, it's perception. If you are checking out a thing you are already aware of, it's investigation.
I like that. Cut and dry. But what if they are “investigating” a door to look for traps? They are not already aware of any, hence the check.
I am curious as to how passive investigation works. To me the idea of investigating was an action someone actively takes, I don't see how someone passively investigates. I get why there is a passive perception, because just wondering around the city with my headphones in my ears listening to music, I am still going to perceive things around me, but to passively investigate I just don't see how that works. If someone could let me know how they play it or maybe this is just me and I am getting a lot of people face palming as they read this. lol
People often make intuitive inductive leaps without actually sitting down and actively thinking about a problem. I’d run passive investigation as being that “Eureka! Here’s what I think happened...” moment.
That’s when I use “Passive Insight” with Int instead of Wis.
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I agree with you 100%, I get the feeling that “passive investigation” is there to give the high Int/low Wis characters a chance too.
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By the skill descriptions in the PHB, insight is about reading people, not inductive reasoning (which is explicitly what investigation is for). To be clear, I’m absolutely not criticizing your call here; going off-book is cool and good, I just think it’s worth mentioning that that’s what we’re doing in the context of someone asking for advice.
True. But I have to agree with the OP, how one would “investigate” “passively” I have no idea.
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The PHB describes an Investigation check as looking around for clues and making deductions based on those clues. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
For Passive Investigation I would say you could spot some of the clues without actively looking provided the passive score is higher than the DC of the clue(s). Passive Investigation can also apply to traps. Perception can be used to notice the trap and Investigation can be used to know how to disarm it. If your Passive Investigation were high enough you would know how to disarm it without the need for an Investigation check.
The only passive score I use is perception. And even with perception, we have had some long philosophical debates about how a DM should handle a character with high passive perception. I'm not saying passive investigation is not a thing--I'm just saying I don't use it because I don't see where it would be appropriate in a game I run without a character making a an active investigation skill check.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Agreed, but I do use passive (Insight). I used to be in sales. Trust me, passive Insight is a thing. I can also see reasons to use something like passive (Acrobatics) for things like keeping balance, or passive Constitution (Athletics) for things like running a marathon, or swimming across a chasm.
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I agree about passive insight, that is definitely a thing. Thanks :-)
I couldn't imagine passively figuring out how a trap works without actively studying it.
I appreciate all the replies. :-)
Passive Investigation - At a glance you've seen this trap before (maybe in another dungeon or a book) and you recall how to disarm it.
I've never DM'd but my understanding of it is that a passive investigation is when an otherwise insignificant detail basically jumps out at you as being off.
You don't necessarily draw a full conclusion instantly but it prompts your attention that further consideration is necessary.
Passive Perception might be seeing a crack in a cave wall as you walk past it.
Passive Investigation might be noticing this crack in the wall couldn't possibly have formed naturally.
Passive perception might let you see an assassin hiding in the shadows.
Passive investigation might let you realize at a glance that the shadows in the room are pointing in the wrong direction.
That kind of stuff.
I can see the argument for passive insight, but I sure do love the tension of opposed rolls when a player is trying to bullshit an NPC :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
One more thing to possibly clarify. Passive (as in passive perception, passive investigation or any "passive" skill) does not refer to the character's actions, it refers to the player's actions. A player is passive if they are not rolling dice. That is all. Passive perception is not your ability to perceive things when you aren't paying attention, it is your ability to perceive things when the DM decides that they aren't rolling dice to resolve a skill check.
Rules references:
"PASSIVE CHECKS
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster." PHB p175
One example used above is searching for secret doors over and over again. The character IS searching. The character is actively searching for hidden doors but their passive ability can be used to determine whether they automatically find the hidden door. If their passive score is insufficient to succeed at the task then the DM could decide to ask the player for a die roll to resolve it. In this case the player is making an Active check. In both cases, the CHARACTER is actively searching.
In terms of using passive perception. Characters are always assumed to be aware and looking around unless they are doing something else. For example, the rules on traveling indicate that characters use passive perception to notice ambushes etc EXCEPT when the character is performing any other action.
"NOTICING THREATS
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot. While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a -5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats." PHB 182
"OTHER ACTIVITIES
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats." PHB 183
Trap example from Lost Mines of Phandelver:
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
In this example, an actively searching character gets to use their passive perception while someone who isn't searching or a searching character whos perception is too low rolls an active check.
Passive does NOT mean the character is passive. It means the player is passive by not rolling dice.
-------
However, all that said, the D&D materials aren't consistent in their usage. Some examples in modules and elsewhere use it the same as the OP despite the base rule in the PHB stating that passive checks are for repeated tasks or when the DM doesn't want the character to roll dice.
In general, I use passive skills whenever they make sense.
1) If I have two characters, a level 3 rogue, proficient with thieves tools with a 16 dexterity for a +5 modifier and a fighter with 0 dexterity mod and no proficiency and a lock with a DC 13. I'll just narrate the rogue successfully opening the lock rather than requiring a die roll in which the fighter who has no idea what they are doing open the lock with 13 roll while the knowledgeable rogue fails rolling a 7. In this case, I would just narrate the success for the ROGUE unless there is a time limit or failure has consequences. If failing sets of a trap or could damage the thieves tools, they have to roll. If they only have a couple of combat rounds to open the lock then they roll. However, if there is no time limit and no consequences then the party will eventually be able to open a DC13 lock - they have the skills. On the other hand, they might not be able to open a DC 18 lock - which requires rolls by everyone who wants to try.
2) Similarly, if a party is searching a desk for hidden compartments this might be an investigation check. I could call for a roll but they fail. Do they then just wander off without having found anything? What happens if a character says "I'm sure there is something there. I search for 10 minutes!" Do I ask for 100 die rolls? In this circumstance if they have said they will search thoroughly (i.e. repeatedly), there is no time limit and no consequence for failure - I will resolve it with a passive investigation check.
This approach also makes the Observant feat with a bonus only to passive perception and passive investigation actually meaningful. In situations where your time to investigate is not limited and you can keep looking then, as a DM, I can choose to use the passive skill to resolve the outcome of a particular task done repeatedly.
3) In a similar way, if you are listening closely to another character, I might apply passive insight to determine whether you generally believe/trust them or not. On the other hand, if the other person makes one particular statement and you are trying to assess it that would usually be a die roll since judging the particular statement is not a task done repeatedly.
4) Usually, you don't use passive acrobatics or athletics for example because there is often a consequence in terms of falling. On the other hand, if they can't be hurt by falling, I might use the passive skills to let them hike up a mountain or similar task that they will likely succeed at given enough time and no consequences for failure (though for endurance I might use a passive constitution check ... or Athletics (constitution))"
Thank you 😊
For example
If a character has a high passive WIS (Perception) then the GM might allow them to notice a secret door based on faint scratches on the floor, or on a faint breeze percieved by the character.
If another character has a high passive INT (Investigation) then the GM might allow them to notice the door based on an inconsistency with wall widths in this part of the dungeon, or on the behaviour of a foe they were following ("They went this way then disappeared, I deduce that there must be a secret door and it must be... there!").
My simple rule of thumb: If you are not yet aware of a thing, it's perception. If you are checking out a thing you are already aware of, it's investigation.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I like that. Cut and dry. But what if they are “investigating” a door to look for traps? They are not already aware of any, hence the check.
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