If that's what you want then by all means, go ahead and houserule it at your table. But the rules does not allow for it per default.
Jeremy Crawford said there's no limit to casting spells and you can quicken a Cantrips. The only problem is casting a bonus action spell first forces spells after it to be cantrips, but there no rule saying you can't cast a spell normal than used a Cantrips as a bonus action from quicken. But if it there please link it.
Just the spell rules that say if you cast a spell as a bonus action then you can only cast another spell that turn if it is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
There is also the Sage Advice which clarifies that the restriction applies before and after casting the spell as a bonus action.
Edit: If you take out the Chill Touch as a bonus action then it would be fine, as casting two level 1+ spells with your Action and Action Surge is perfectly legal.
Just the spell rules that say if you cast a spell as a bonus action then you can only cast another spell that turn if it is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
There is also the Sage Advice which clarifies that the restriction applies before and after casting the spell as a bonus action.
Edit: If you take out the Chill Touch as a bonus action then it would be fine, as casting two level 1+ spells with your Action and Action Surge is perfectly legal.
You can cast two fire balls a turn with action surge, the person you are replying to is correct.
Yes you can, but not if you use your Bonus Action to cast a spell.
We understand what you are saying and are contradicting you on purpose. We are specifically saying that you are wrong about this point. Yes, technically reading the PHB says you can only cast a cantrip in your turn if you have cast a leveled spell. Technically that would stop you from counter spelling someone that attempts to counterspell your fireball.
But that literal reading of the rules has been corrected by Sage Advice to specifically only apply to your normal action. It does not apply to the Action Surge nor does it apply to a reaction that you happen to take on your turn.
The effective rule, after official Sage Advice (not twitter which is unreliable - basically they are just responding off the top of his head) is that if you cast a Bonus Action spell, then your normal action can only be used to cast a cantrip.
Please also note that in addition I have seen multiple DM's House Rule to allow someone that uses their Bonus Action to cast a cantrip to also cast a normal spell with their main action. This is definitely a house rule, as it goes against the literal reading of both the core rules and the Sage Advice, but it does not affect game balance. Basically it is ruled this way so as not to screw over people that in the very rare circumstances have already cast a leveled spell and now want to quicken a cantrip. There is no real reason to force them to quicken the main spell rather than quickening the cantrip, as the cost is the same, and sometimes story reasons means it makes more sense.
Not very practical but it is possible to cast 4 levelled spells between the start of your turn and the start of the turn of the person next in initiatve.
Samurai 18, with 2 levels in a full caster (say cleric), also take a feat like Shadow touched that allows the use of a spell without using a spell slot (as you only have three slots.
Cast Guiding Bolt
Action Surge Cast another guiding bolt
Move drawing an opporunity attack that reduces you to 0 hit points
Cast cure wounds on yourself
Action surge cast invisibility
While you can not cast action surge twice on the same turn strength before death allows you to take an "Extra turn" so technically the above procedure is two turns even though noone else has a turn inbetween. (Of course alevel 18 samurai's weapon attack will do more damage than a 1st level spell so doing the above is not going to be any use other than a show of lightning fast spellcasting.
You can cast two fire balls a turn with action surge, the person you are replying to is correct.
Yes you can, but not if you use your Bonus Action to cast a spell.
We understand what you are saying and are contradicting you on purpose. We are specifically saying that you are wrong about this point. Yes, technically reading the PHB says you can only cast a cantrip in your turn if you have cast a leveled spell. Technically that would stop you from counter spelling someone that attempts to counterspell your fireball.
But that literal reading of the rules has been corrected by Sage Advice to specifically only apply to your normal action. It does not apply to the Action Surge nor does it apply to a reaction that you happen to take on your turn.
Where does SAC address this? I think you are referring to:
"Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball."
There is no dispute you can do this but as no spells are cast using a bonus action, the same applies if you cast fireball, action surge and cast another fireball. The PHB says both of these are allowed but as confusion arose (mainly because a lot of people thought it ruling of the PHB was the equivalent to not being able ot cast two levelled spells on your turn.
What the SAC doesn't address is if Cornelious cast misty step on his turn and not fireball, if the foe then casts counterspell the literal reading of the rules is as Cornelious has cast a spell using his bonus action he can not cast another spell on his turn (even as a reaction) and the SAC did not change it (it only clarified a different issue).
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action".
The rule is pretty clear. I don't understand the doubts. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can't cast another spell except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. It doesn't matter if you use action surge or anything else, if you cast a spell with bonus action, the rest of the rule applies for your entire turn.
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action".
The rule is pretty clear. I don't understand the doubts. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can't cast another spell except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. It doesn't matter if you use action surge or anything else, if you cast a spell with bonus action, the rest of the rule applies for your entire turn.
And that isn't what people are saying at all. They are saying that there are ways to cast a spell without using your bonus action and still be able to cast a spell again. Action Surge is the most common, followed by reaction spells. As TexasDevin's flowchart points out, if you've used your bonus action to cast a spell, then you can only cast a cantrip with a casting time of one action. If you haven't, then you can cast spells of sort that your action economy allows. The only caveat to that would be that you could cast a leveled spell, still have a bonus action available, and not be able to cast a spell with it.
We understand what you are saying and are contradicting you on purpose. We are specifically saying that you are wrong about this point. Yes, technically reading the PHB says you can only cast a cantrip in your turn if you have cast a leveled spell. Technically that would stop you from counter spelling someone that attempts to counterspell your fireball.
No. No, no, no. You are still not getting it. Casting a levelled spell doesn't restrict other spellcasting. Casting any spell with your bonus action restricts other spellcasting.
So doing "action -> levelled spell" + "action surge action -> levelled spell" + "reaction -> levelled spell" on the same turn is legal but if you throw in a "bonus action -> any spell" on the turn then you are restricted to using cantrips for any other spells on that turn. And that holds true no matter if you go by the PHB, the SAC, Crawford tweets or any combination thereof.
But that literal reading of the rules has been corrected by Sage Advice to specifically only apply to your normal action. It does not apply to the Action Surge nor does it apply to a reaction that you happen to take on your turn.
And that is wrong. The SAC does not make any such distinction.
The effective rule, after official Sage Advice (not twitter which is unreliable - basically they are just responding off the top of his head) is that if you cast a Bonus Action spell, then your normal action can only be used to cast a cantrip.
No it is "if you cast a bonus action spell, then any other spells on that turn can only be cantrips (with a 1 action casting time).
The thing that people often gets confused about is when the SAC or a Crawford tweet reminds us that casting a spell with an action surge action or a reaction doesn't trigger this rule they somehow take that to mean that action surge or reactions aren't effected at all by the rule. But they are.
Please also note that in addition I have seen multiple DM's House Rule to allow someone that uses their Bonus Action to cast a cantrip to also cast a normal spell with their main action. This is definitely a house rule, as it goes against the literal reading of both the core rules and the Sage Advice, but it does not affect game balance. Basically it is ruled this way so as not to screw over people that in the very rare circumstances have already cast a leveled spell and now want to quicken a cantrip. There is no real reason to force them to quicken the main spell rather than quickening the cantrip, as the cost is the same, and sometimes story reasons means it makes more sense.
Yea this is a house rule that I've seen too. And it is usually not a big deal. But what you should remember as a DM is that there is a difference. If a player does "action -> cantrip + bonus action -> quickened levelled spell" that means that the levelled spell has used its one metamagic option. If you instead allow "action -> levelled spell + bonus action -> quickened cantrip" then the player could potentially add any other metamagic option to the levelled spell. And that could affect game balance.
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action".
The rule is pretty clear. I don't understand the doubts. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can't cast another spell except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. It doesn't matter if you use action surge or anything else, if you cast a spell with bonus action, the rest of the rule applies for your entire turn.
And that isn't what people are saying at all. They are saying that there are ways to cast a spell without using your bonus action and still be able to cast a spell again. Action Surge is the most common, followed by reaction spells. As TexasDevin's flowchart points out, if you've used your bonus action to cast a spell, then you can only cast a cantrip with a casting time of one action. If you haven't, then you can cast spells of sort that your action economy allows. The only caveat to that would be that you could cast a leveled spell, still have a bonus action available, and not be able to cast a spell with it.
So I don't understand the argument either. The rule is still clear. The second part only applies if the first part is true. Don't you cast a spell as a bonus action? So you can cast as many spells as you can based on your action economy.
The Xanathar's Guide to Everything clarified bonus spellcasting even better
If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action".
The rule is pretty clear. I don't understand the doubts. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can't cast another spell except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. It doesn't matter if you use action surge or anything else, if you cast a spell with bonus action, the rest of the rule applies for your entire turn.
And that isn't what people are saying at all. They are saying that there are ways to cast a spell without using your bonus action and still be able to cast a spell again. Action Surge is the most common, followed by reaction spells. As TexasDevin's flowchart points out, if you've used your bonus action to cast a spell, then you can only cast a cantrip with a casting time of one action. If you haven't, then you can cast spells of sort that your action economy allows. The only caveat to that would be that you could cast a leveled spell, still have a bonus action available, and not be able to cast a spell with it.
So I don't understand the argument either. The rule is still clear. The second part only applies if the first part is true. Don't you cast a spell as a bonus action? So you can cast as many spells as you can based on your action economy.
As simple as that.
I forgot that Mog was arguing that bonus action casting and action Surge casting were compatible.
There are spells that must be cast as a bonus action and those can never be cast with a leveled spell. This includes spells like Misty Step. Sorcerers using Quickened spell fall under this classification.
Reaction spells like counterspell don't use a bonus action and don't trigger the bonus action spell rule, so you could cast Fireball, have an enemy cast Counterspell against it, and then Counterspell their Counterspell without triggering the bonus action rule.
Likewise, if you have one of the few ways to be able to have two actions in one turn that you can use to cast a spell (Action Surge and Thief's Reflexes but not Haste), then you can use one action to cast Fireball and the other to also cast Fireball.
This isn't to say that you can do this turn after turn since there are few ways to gain the extra action. Reactions occurring on your turn are also likely to be limited.
…bonus action casting and action Surge casting were compatible.
Yep, often missed. You can cast misty step and fire bolt, then use action surge to cast another fire bolt.
I think part of the confusion is the difference in wording between PHB and Xanathar's Guide.
PHB - You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Xanathar - If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
So you can see how someone might look at the wording from the PHB and not realize you can cast multiple cantrips on the same turn with casting times of an action. I used the PHB wording in my flow chart in order to favor wording from a core rulebook.
It works as you are saying. - If you cast a spell as a bonus action, any other spell that turn has to be a cantrip whose casting time is 1 action. - If you don't cast a spell as a bonus action, your only limitations are your action economy, and your spell slots. If you have two actions, you can cast a spell with a level in each of them following the usual rules. If in addition a situation applies so that you can use your reaction in another spell, you can also cast it.
The only thing limiting the number of leveled spells you can cast in a turn are spells whose casting time is 1 bonus action.
I've never understood where the belief that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn comes from. I don't see anything in the rules that makes you think that. But it is a widespread belief for some reason.
One of my players and I have a dispute about quickened metamagic spells. Specifically sunbeam.
I told him that he can cast it as a bonus action and everything else he can do in the same turn is to either attack with his weapon or cast a cantrip, as clarified in the rules.
However, he is trying to convince me that he is not casting another spell, he is activating an already active spell.
Does that mean that he is just activating another sunbeam and that's it, or is he dealing damage twice with the same spell in the same turn.
Meaning, sunbeam as a bonus action, and then sunbeam as an action in the same turn with metamagic quickened spell.
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Jeremy Crawford said there's no limit to casting spells and you can quicken a Cantrips. The only problem is casting a bonus action spell first forces spells after it to be cantrips, but there no rule saying you can't cast a spell normal than used a Cantrips as a bonus action from quicken. But if it there please link it.
Just the spell rules that say if you cast a spell as a bonus action then you can only cast another spell that turn if it is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
There is also the Sage Advice which clarifies that the restriction applies before and after casting the spell as a bonus action.
Edit: If you take out the Chill Touch as a bonus action then it would be fine, as casting two level 1+ spells with your Action and Action Surge is perfectly legal.
Okay and thank you for the link
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1151294046758825984?t=pIAKx6mxMCuPHI2ncLU8mA&s=19
You can cast two fire balls a turn with action surge, the person you are replying to is correct.
Yes you can, but not if you use your Bonus Action to cast a spell.
We understand what you are saying and are contradicting you on purpose. We are specifically saying that you are wrong about this point. Yes, technically reading the PHB says you can only cast a cantrip in your turn if you have cast a leveled spell. Technically that would stop you from counter spelling someone that attempts to counterspell your fireball.
But that literal reading of the rules has been corrected by Sage Advice to specifically only apply to your normal action. It does not apply to the Action Surge nor does it apply to a reaction that you happen to take on your turn.
The effective rule, after official Sage Advice (not twitter which is unreliable - basically they are just responding off the top of his head) is that if you cast a Bonus Action spell, then your normal action can only be used to cast a cantrip.
Please also note that in addition I have seen multiple DM's House Rule to allow someone that uses their Bonus Action to cast a cantrip to also cast a normal spell with their main action. This is definitely a house rule, as it goes against the literal reading of both the core rules and the Sage Advice, but it does not affect game balance. Basically it is ruled this way so as not to screw over people that in the very rare circumstances have already cast a leveled spell and now want to quicken a cantrip. There is no real reason to force them to quicken the main spell rather than quickening the cantrip, as the cost is the same, and sometimes story reasons means it makes more sense.
Not very practical but it is possible to cast 4 levelled spells between the start of your turn and the start of the turn of the person next in initiatve.
Samurai 18, with 2 levels in a full caster (say cleric), also take a feat like Shadow touched that allows the use of a spell without using a spell slot (as you only have three slots.
While you can not cast action surge twice on the same turn strength before death allows you to take an "Extra turn" so technically the above procedure is two turns even though noone else has a turn inbetween. (Of course alevel 18 samurai's weapon attack will do more damage than a 1st level spell so doing the above is not going to be any use other than a show of lightning fast spellcasting.
Where does SAC address this? I think you are referring to:
"Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball."
There is no dispute you can do this but as no spells are cast using a bonus action, the same applies if you cast fireball, action surge and cast another fireball. The PHB says both of these are allowed but as confusion arose (mainly because a lot of people thought it ruling of the PHB was the equivalent to not being able ot cast two levelled spells on your turn.
What the SAC doesn't address is if Cornelious cast misty step on his turn and not fireball, if the foe then casts counterspell the literal reading of the rules is as Cornelious has cast a spell using his bonus action he can not cast another spell on his turn (even as a reaction) and the SAC did not change it (it only clarified a different issue).
Let me turn the wayback machine to two years ago and dust this image off. I still have not found a situation on your turn where this doesn't apply.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action".
The rule is pretty clear. I don't understand the doubts. If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can't cast another spell except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
It doesn't matter if you use action surge or anything else, if you cast a spell with bonus action, the rest of the rule applies for your entire turn.
And that isn't what people are saying at all. They are saying that there are ways to cast a spell without using your bonus action and still be able to cast a spell again. Action Surge is the most common, followed by reaction spells. As TexasDevin's flowchart points out, if you've used your bonus action to cast a spell, then you can only cast a cantrip with a casting time of one action. If you haven't, then you can cast spells of sort that your action economy allows. The only caveat to that would be that you could cast a leveled spell, still have a bonus action available, and not be able to cast a spell with it.
No. No, no, no. You are still not getting it. Casting a levelled spell doesn't restrict other spellcasting. Casting any spell with your bonus action restricts other spellcasting.
So doing "action -> levelled spell" + "action surge action -> levelled spell" + "reaction -> levelled spell" on the same turn is legal but if you throw in a "bonus action -> any spell" on the turn then you are restricted to using cantrips for any other spells on that turn. And that holds true no matter if you go by the PHB, the SAC, Crawford tweets or any combination thereof.
And that is wrong. The SAC does not make any such distinction.
No it is "if you cast a bonus action spell, then any other spells on that turn can only be cantrips (with a 1 action casting time).
The thing that people often gets confused about is when the SAC or a Crawford tweet reminds us that casting a spell with an action surge action or a reaction doesn't trigger this rule they somehow take that to mean that action surge or reactions aren't effected at all by the rule. But they are.
Yea this is a house rule that I've seen too. And it is usually not a big deal. But what you should remember as a DM is that there is a difference. If a player does "action -> cantrip + bonus action -> quickened levelled spell" that means that the levelled spell has used its one metamagic option. If you instead allow "action -> levelled spell + bonus action -> quickened cantrip" then the player could potentially add any other metamagic option to the levelled spell. And that could affect game balance.
So I don't understand the argument either. The rule is still clear. The second part only applies if the first part is true. Don't you cast a spell as a bonus action? So you can cast as many spells as you can based on your action economy.
As simple as that.
The Xanathar's Guide to Everything clarified bonus spellcasting even better
I forgot that Mog was arguing that bonus action casting and action Surge casting were compatible.
There are spells that must be cast as a bonus action and those can never be cast with a leveled spell. This includes spells like Misty Step. Sorcerers using Quickened spell fall under this classification.
Reaction spells like counterspell don't use a bonus action and don't trigger the bonus action spell rule, so you could cast Fireball, have an enemy cast Counterspell against it, and then Counterspell their Counterspell without triggering the bonus action rule.
Likewise, if you have one of the few ways to be able to have two actions in one turn that you can use to cast a spell (Action Surge and Thief's Reflexes but not Haste), then you can use one action to cast Fireball and the other to also cast Fireball.
This isn't to say that you can do this turn after turn since there are few ways to gain the extra action. Reactions occurring on your turn are also likely to be limited.
Yep, often missed. You can cast misty step and fire bolt, then use action surge to cast another fire bolt.
I think part of the confusion is the difference in wording between PHB and Xanathar's Guide.
So you can see how someone might look at the wording from the PHB and not realize you can cast multiple cantrips on the same turn with casting times of an action. I used the PHB wording in my flow chart in order to favor wording from a core rulebook.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It works as you are saying.
- If you cast a spell as a bonus action, any other spell that turn has to be a cantrip whose casting time is 1 action.
- If you don't cast a spell as a bonus action, your only limitations are your action economy, and your spell slots. If you have two actions, you can cast a spell with a level in each of them following the usual rules. If in addition a situation applies so that you can use your reaction in another spell, you can also cast it.
The only thing limiting the number of leveled spells you can cast in a turn are spells whose casting time is 1 bonus action.
I've never understood where the belief that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn comes from. I don't see anything in the rules that makes you think that. But it is a widespread belief for some reason.
One of my players and I have a dispute about quickened metamagic spells. Specifically sunbeam.
I told him that he can cast it as a bonus action and everything else he can do in the same turn is to either attack with his weapon or cast a cantrip, as clarified in the rules.
However, he is trying to convince me that he is not casting another spell, he is activating an already active spell.
Does that mean that he is just activating another sunbeam and that's it, or is he dealing damage twice with the same spell in the same turn.
Meaning, sunbeam as a bonus action, and then sunbeam as an action in the same turn with metamagic quickened spell.