This has been messing with my mind for a while so I wanted to ask you all your opinions !
Quickened metamagic says you can use it to make a spell that takes one action to take a bonus action. So that bit is easy.
the spell casting rules also say that when you cast a "bonus action" spell you can only cast a cantrip if you have the action economy to do so.
so my question is this....
1) I cast a leveled spell that takes one action to cast = 1 leveled spell
2) I use meta magic to "Quicken" another spell (a leveled one) that takes one action - thus it takes a bonus action to cast = two leveled spells in a round
obviously you then have the ability to cast a leveled spell (i.e shield or counter spell) as a reaction.
Add to this with the war caster feat you can also use a single target spell as an opportunity attack.
Curious re the above too - if using a bonus action spell means you cant cast another leveled spell then how is it you are allowed to cast a leveled spell as a reaction and opportunity attack ?
Any help / clarity appreciated - especially if you can link SAGE Errata or similar :)
You can't ever cast a noncantrip and a bonus action spell on the same turn, regardless of order. As soon as you cast a noncantrip spell on your turn, you've locked yourself out of casting a bonus action spell, which means you can't quicken any spells either.
The most common way of casting two noncantrips is Action Surge. Obviously reactions can make that happen too but those rarely kick in during your own turn, unless you're using Shield to get out of an opportunity attack or you're trying to Counterspell.
Does Quickened Spell allow a sorcerer to cast two spells a round of 1st level or higher?
No, the sorcerer must follow the rule for casting a spell as a bonus action and casting another spell on the same turn; the other spell must be a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn?
There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn.
Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.
you are referring to the phb pg 202 bonus spell limit. Which i get.
but you can still cast a leveled spell first, THEN quicken a leveled spell that is 1 action to make it a bonus action. it makes logic sense to me...
i totally get casting a bonus action spell means only a cantrip can be cast after it but just seems ambiguous.....contradictory....cast a bonus action cant cast a leveled spell after it - oh but you can if its a reaction, or (Warcaster feat) opportunity attack spell...
Normal action = leveled spell or cantrip, TWINNED to affect an extra target
Bonus Action = cantrip or leveled spell, depending on which you took in 1 (can not take a leveled spell in 1 and also in 2) TWINNED to affect an extra target.
Reaction = leveled spell TWINNED to affect an extra target
Action Surge = + action = + a leveled spelled TWINNED to affect an extra target
That is 4 spells, all twinned. Cost a lot of sorcery points.
you are referring to the phb pg 202 bonus spell limit. Which i get.
but you can still cast a leveled spell first, THEN quicken a leveled spell that is 1 action to make it a bonus action. it makes logic sense to me...
i totally get casting a bonus action spell means only a cantrip can be cast after it but just seems ambiguous.....contradictory....cast a bonus action cant cast a leveled spell after it - oh but you can if its a reaction, or (Warcaster feat) opportunity attack spell...
Warcaster would be casting on another creature's turn. Most reactions are on another creature's turn. A turn isn't the same as a round.
If you could cast Healing Word and Counterspell with a character, you wouldn't be able to cast them on the same turn unless your DM house ruled that you could.
An ally gets attacked by a creature and is knocked unconscious. You are the only character with a ranged healing spell. You decide to cast Infestation to try to get the creature to move away and Healing Word to heal the ally. An enemy casts Counterspell on your Healing Word. You can't cast Counterspell in response because Healing Word is a bonus action spell. You could counterspell a spell on the very next creature's turn, though
Same scenario, but you have Cure Wounds instead of Healing Word. You use quickened spell to cast either Cure Wounds or Infestation and your action to cast the other. The enemy Counterspells your Cure Wounds and you still can't respond. You could counterspell a spell on the very next creature's turn, though.
However, if you used your action to cast Cure Wounds first and the enemy Counterspelled your Cure Wounds, then you could Counterspell the enemy's Counterspell. You wouldn't be able to quicken Infestation or any other spell until your next turn.
Warcaster never allows you to cast two spells in the same turn unless a creature uses a reaction that allows them to move on your turn and you use your reaction to change the OA that they trigger into a leveled spell (which would lock out a bonus action spell or a leveled spell if the other had been cast previously).
Normal action = leveled spell or cantrip, TWINNED to affect an extra target
Bonus Action = cantrip or leveled spell, depending on which you took in 1 (can not take a leveled spell in 1 and also in 2) TWINNED to affect an extra target.
Reaction = leveled spell TWINNED to affect an extra target
Action Surge = + action = + a leveled spelled TWINNED to affect an extra target
That is 4 spells, all twinned. Cost a lot of sorcery points.
It should be noted that in order for all of these to go down on the same turn, the reaction spell would be the only one that could be cast as a leveled spell (unless I'm missing a cantrip that has a reaction time of a cantrip). By comparison, take out the bonus action spell (number 2) and you could cast 3 leveled spells in the same turn (but not be able to repeat it until after a rest unless you were a fighter 17, which would allow you to repeat it one other time).
Normal action = leveled spell or cantrip, TWINNED to affect an extra target
Bonus Action = cantrip or leveled spell, depending on which you took in 1 (can not take a leveled spell in 1 and also in 2) TWINNED to affect an extra target.
Reaction = leveled spell TWINNED to affect an extra target
Action Surge = + action = + a leveled spelled TWINNED to affect an extra target
That is 4 spells, all twinned. Cost a lot of sorcery points.
It should be noted that in order for all of these to go down on the same turn, the reaction spell would be the only one that could be cast as a leveled spell (unless I'm missing a cantrip that has a reaction time of a cantrip). By comparison, take out the bonus action spell (number 2) and you could cast 3 leveled spells in the same turn (but not be able to repeat it until after a rest unless you were a fighter 17, which would allow you to repeat it one other time).
Jhffan you are misunderstanding the rules. Action Surge has been expressly stated to allow another leveled spell. Reactions almost always occur on someone ELSE'S Turn, and they do not contradict the rule about two leveled spells.
A Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 /Fighter 2 can legally do all the following during the first round of combat:
Normal Action: Twinned Firebolt cantrip, (cost 1 SP)
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
Normal action = leveled spell or cantrip, TWINNED to affect an extra target
Bonus Action = cantrip or leveled spell, depending on which you took in 1 (can not take a leveled spell in 1 and also in 2) TWINNED to affect an extra target.
Reaction = leveled spell TWINNED to affect an extra target
Action Surge = + action = + a leveled spelled TWINNED to affect an extra target
That is 4 spells, all twinned. Cost a lot of sorcery points.
It should be noted that in order for all of these to go down on the same turn, the reaction spell would be the only one that could be cast as a leveled spell (unless I'm missing a cantrip that has a reaction time of a cantrip). By comparison, take out the bonus action spell (number 2) and you could cast 3 leveled spells in the same turn (but not be able to repeat it until after a rest unless you were a fighter 17, which would allow you to repeat it one other time).
Jhffan you are wrong. Outrght wrong. Action Surge has been expressly stated to allow another leveled spell. Reactions almost always occur on someone ELSE'S Turn, so they do not contradict the rule about two leveled spells.
Normal Action: Twinned Firebolt cantrip, (cost 1 SP)
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
Yes, you can cast two leveled spells in one turn with Action Surge, but not if you cast any bonus action spell. No one is saying that you can't cast two leveled spells in a turn. What we're saying is you can't cast a bonus action spell and a leveled spell in the same turn. If you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell, any other spell that turn has to be 1 Action Cantrips, even if you Action Surge.
Normal action = leveled spell or cantrip, TWINNED to affect an extra target
Bonus Action = cantrip or leveled spell, depending on which you took in 1 (can not take a leveled spell in 1 and also in 2) TWINNED to affect an extra target.
Reaction = leveled spell TWINNED to affect an extra target
Action Surge = + action = + a leveled spelled TWINNED to affect an extra target
That is 4 spells, all twinned. Cost a lot of sorcery points.
It should be noted that in order for all of these to go down on the same turn, the reaction spell would be the only one that could be cast as a leveled spell (unless I'm missing a cantrip that has a reaction time of a cantrip). By comparison, take out the bonus action spell (number 2) and you could cast 3 leveled spells in the same turn (but not be able to repeat it until after a rest unless you were a fighter 17, which would allow you to repeat it one other time).
Jhffan you are misunderstanding the rules. Action Surge has been expressly stated to allow another leveled spell. Reactions almost always occur on someone ELSE'S Turn, and they do not contradict the rule about two leveled spells.
A Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 /Fighter 2 can legally do all the following during the first round of combat:
Normal Action: Twinned Firebolt cantrip, (cost 1 SP)
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
I didn't say that you couldn't cast a second leveled spell if you use action surge. See Ophidimancer's response, that's what I was saying.
A bonus action spell prevents any other spells cast during that round from being a leveled spell. Which means that I did make a mistake when I suggested that you could only cast the reaction spell as a leveled spell if you cast a bonus action spell prior. A reaction on the following turn (same round or the next, and not even limiting to your next turn) would still be possible, though.
In your example, the action surge wouldn't be able to cast Chaos Boltif you had cast Healing Word first, but would be able to cast Chaos Bolt if the normal action was Fireball. If you normal action [Tooltip Not Found], you could still cast Healing Word or Action Surge in the Chaos Bolt, but you couldn't do both.
I can see where your getting confused on your quote. The highlighted portion is distinguishing a bonus action cast versus an Action Surge cast as the second spell. It's giving two separate examples not saying that you can cast Healing Word and Action Surge an additional leveled spell in. If action surge did that, it would tell you it did. It doesn't have anything that overrules the bonus action special case rule. The main confusion that is trying to clarify is people thinking that you can't cast Fireball and Chaos Bolt in the same turn using Action Surge because you normally need to use a bonus action to cast 2 spells in the same turn at all since most characters only have one action and reactions on your turn aren't common (as you pointed out). Therefore, many people mistakingly believe that you can only cast one bonus action spell and a cantrip or you can only Action Surge a cantrip in if you've cast a leveled spell. If you had a way to cast 5 spells without casting a bonus action spell, they could all be leveled. Cast spell using a bonus action and those other 5 spells would have to be cantrips.
As an aside Chaos Bolt is gray area for twinning, since it can target a second creature on a normal cast. I'd probably either disallow it or resolve the damage and extra target possibility before allowing you to twin it with the twin using the same damage as the original so there wouldn't be a possibility of the second one targeting a third.
Just as an aside. Don't forget about channeled actions - I cast Sunbeam on a turn. It stays up as long as I maintain concentration and I can use my action to create another beam of life that does some nice damage. On my next turn I quicken fireball as a bonus action. Creating another beam of light is not considered casting a spell (per Sage Advice) therefore as my action I can use Sunbeam (one reason why this is a favored Sorcerer tactic).
heya all,
This has been messing with my mind for a while so I wanted to ask you all your opinions !
Quickened metamagic says you can use it to make a spell that takes one action to take a bonus action. So that bit is easy.
the spell casting rules also say that when you cast a "bonus action" spell you can only cast a cantrip if you have the action economy to do so.
so my question is this....
1) I cast a leveled spell that takes one action to cast = 1 leveled spell
2) I use meta magic to "Quicken" another spell (a leveled one) that takes one action - thus it takes a bonus action to cast = two leveled spells in a round
obviously you then have the ability to cast a leveled spell (i.e shield or counter spell) as a reaction.
Add to this with the war caster feat you can also use a single target spell as an opportunity attack.
Curious re the above too - if using a bonus action spell means you cant cast another leveled spell then how is it you are allowed to cast a leveled spell as a reaction and opportunity attack ?
Any help / clarity appreciated - especially if you can link SAGE Errata or similar :)
Cheers in advance,
Glen
Here is a link to Jeremy Crawford's Twitter ruling that you can cast a spell as a reaction on someone else's turn and as a bonus spell on your own turn. https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/721357096055275521
You can't ever cast a noncantrip and a bonus action spell on the same turn, regardless of order. As soon as you cast a noncantrip spell on your turn, you've locked yourself out of casting a bonus action spell, which means you can't quicken any spells either.
The most common way of casting two noncantrips is Action Surge. Obviously reactions can make that happen too but those rarely kick in during your own turn, unless you're using Shield to get out of an opportunity attack or you're trying to Counterspell.
This is all covered in Sage Advice Compendium:
The Forum Infestation (TM)
so i found the below when trying to figure it out from Jeremy Crawford too :
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1044991044666834944
Yes, but one of those must be a 1-action cantrip, as has been established.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
you are referring to the phb pg 202 bonus spell limit. Which i get.
but you can still cast a leveled spell first, THEN quicken a leveled spell that is 1 action to make it a bonus action. it makes logic sense to me...
i totally get casting a bonus action spell means only a cantrip can be cast after it but just seems ambiguous.....contradictory....cast a bonus action cant cast a leveled spell after it - oh but you can if its a reaction, or (Warcaster feat) opportunity attack spell...
No, that's incorrect, it doesn't matter the order. Bonus action spells and leveled spells cannot be cast in the same turn.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
is there an official ruling or similar that says that ? that i can use ? That specifically takes consideration of "quickened" metamagic
The best way I know to do this is:
That is 4 spells, all twinned. Cost a lot of sorcery points.
InquisitiveCoder already linked it above in the 3rd post of this thread.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Warcaster would be casting on another creature's turn. Most reactions are on another creature's turn. A turn isn't the same as a round.
If you could cast Healing Word and Counterspell with a character, you wouldn't be able to cast them on the same turn unless your DM house ruled that you could.
An ally gets attacked by a creature and is knocked unconscious. You are the only character with a ranged healing spell. You decide to cast Infestation to try to get the creature to move away and Healing Word to heal the ally. An enemy casts Counterspell on your Healing Word. You can't cast Counterspell in response because Healing Word is a bonus action spell. You could counterspell a spell on the very next creature's turn, though
Same scenario, but you have Cure Wounds instead of Healing Word. You use quickened spell to cast either Cure Wounds or Infestation and your action to cast the other. The enemy Counterspells your Cure Wounds and you still can't respond. You could counterspell a spell on the very next creature's turn, though.
However, if you used your action to cast Cure Wounds first and the enemy Counterspelled your Cure Wounds, then you could Counterspell the enemy's Counterspell. You wouldn't be able to quicken Infestation or any other spell until your next turn.
Warcaster never allows you to cast two spells in the same turn unless a creature uses a reaction that allows them to move on your turn and you use your reaction to change the OA that they trigger into a leveled spell (which would lock out a bonus action spell or a leveled spell if the other had been cast previously).
It's your turn. You want to cast a spell. Here's how to know what is allowed.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It should be noted that in order for all of these to go down on the same turn, the reaction spell would be the only one that could be cast as a leveled spell (unless I'm missing a cantrip that has a reaction time of a cantrip). By comparison, take out the bonus action spell (number 2) and you could cast 3 leveled spells in the same turn (but not be able to repeat it until after a rest unless you were a fighter 17, which would allow you to repeat it one other time).
thanks all - really appreciated for the answers :)
G
Jhffan you are misunderstanding the rules. Action Surge has been expressly stated to allow another leveled spell. Reactions almost always occur on someone ELSE'S Turn, and they do not contradict the rule about two leveled spells.
A Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 /Fighter 2 can legally do all the following during the first round of combat:
Total cost of 6 Sorcery points, 2 first level slots and 1 third level slot.
All of that is legal during one round.
Go here: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf
Yes, you can cast two leveled spells in one turn with Action Surge, but not if you cast any bonus action spell. No one is saying that you can't cast two leveled spells in a turn. What we're saying is you can't cast a bonus action spell and a leveled spell in the same turn. If you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell, any other spell that turn has to be 1 Action Cantrips, even if you Action Surge.
1 Action Leveled Spell > Action Surge > 1 Action Leveled Spell = YES
1 Action Cantrip > Bonus Action Leveled Spell = YES
1 Action Cantrip > Bonus Action Cantrip = YES
1 Action Leveled Spell > Bonus Action Leveled Spell = NO
1 Action Leveled Spell > Bonus Action Cantrip = NO
1 Action Cantrip > Bonus Action Leveled Spell > Action Surge > 1 Action Leveled Spell = NO
1 Action Cantrip > Bonus Action Leveled Spell > Action Surge > 1 Action Cantrip = YES
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I didn't say that you couldn't cast a second leveled spell if you use action surge. See Ophidimancer's response, that's what I was saying.
A bonus action spell prevents any other spells cast during that round from being a leveled spell. Which means that I did make a mistake when I suggested that you could only cast the reaction spell as a leveled spell if you cast a bonus action spell prior. A reaction on the following turn (same round or the next, and not even limiting to your next turn) would still be possible, though.
In your example, the action surge wouldn't be able to cast Chaos Boltif you had cast Healing Word first, but would be able to cast Chaos Bolt if the normal action was Fireball. If you normal action [Tooltip Not Found], you could still cast Healing Word or Action Surge in the Chaos Bolt, but you couldn't do both.
I can see where your getting confused on your quote. The highlighted portion is distinguishing a bonus action cast versus an Action Surge cast as the second spell. It's giving two separate examples not saying that you can cast Healing Word and Action Surge an additional leveled spell in. If action surge did that, it would tell you it did. It doesn't have anything that overrules the bonus action special case rule. The main confusion that is trying to clarify is people thinking that you can't cast Fireball and Chaos Bolt in the same turn using Action Surge because you normally need to use a bonus action to cast 2 spells in the same turn at all since most characters only have one action and reactions on your turn aren't common (as you pointed out). Therefore, many people mistakingly believe that you can only cast one bonus action spell and a cantrip or you can only Action Surge a cantrip in if you've cast a leveled spell. If you had a way to cast 5 spells without casting a bonus action spell, they could all be leveled. Cast spell using a bonus action and those other 5 spells would have to be cantrips.
As an aside Chaos Bolt is gray area for twinning, since it can target a second creature on a normal cast. I'd probably either disallow it or resolve the damage and extra target possibility before allowing you to twin it with the twin using the same damage as the original so there wouldn't be a possibility of the second one targeting a third.
I do appreciate the edit, though.
Just as an aside. Don't forget about channeled actions - I cast Sunbeam on a turn. It stays up as long as I maintain concentration and I can use my action to create another beam of life that does some nice damage. On my next turn I quicken fireball as a bonus action. Creating another beam of light is not considered casting a spell (per Sage Advice) therefore as my action I can use Sunbeam (one reason why this is a favored Sorcerer tactic).
It should work like this:
1 action - fireball.
Action surge - fireball.
Quicken spell - chill touch.
One reaction shield.
If that's what you want then by all means, go ahead and houserule it at your table. But the rules does not allow for it per default.