One of my players has just taken Eyes of the Rune Keeper. Now I have planned and planted In my story some puzzles that use alchemical symbols. My question is, would Eyes of the Rune Keeper enable him to “read” those symbols, and know which alchemical ingredient they referred to?
Something like a Shadowmark, a Glyph, or such other single image doesn't make sense to be "read". You either know the symbolism of the image, or you don't. A letter may be a symbol, but not all symbols are letters. Furthermore, even if you can "read" something, it doesn't mean you "understand" the meaning. Things like Thieves' Cant or jargon could obscure the meaning. Therefore, I would say that Eyes of the Rune Keeper doesn't help.
If no, it's just a symbol and EotRK will not be relevant.
In theory a pictographic language could become a problematic grey area, but that would kind of depend on where on the spectrum of Egyptian Hieroglyphics to caveman pictograms we're talking about.
Thank you, that the way I'm leaning, but I wanted to make sure that it wasn't just because it suits my game for him not to be immediately able to read it. In my mind a symbol isn't strictly a language. The things I have in mind are a little like zodiac symbols - and I think you would have to be familiar with the signs of the zodiac to know what the symbol mean.
No the symbols are the traditional alchemical symbols for things like mercury and sulphur. My gut feeling is that they can't be understood as writing because a knowledge of alchemy would be needed for them to make sense. And yes, it was the issue of photographic languages such as hieroglyphics that were causing me to waver. Thank you for helping me to sort it out in my head!
Eyes of the Rune Keeper says writing, not languages.
I would make the distinction as this:
written Languages = full set of symbols intended to convey almost any concept. English, Egyptian Heiroglyphics, Chinese, etc.
Writing = any set of symbols intended to convey complex information to all that know that language. Typical example are Runic languages, where less than 200 written words are possible, the alchemical symbols you mentioned, and of course, mathematical notation.
Logos = simple ideas recognized by people that have some specific knowledge of them. Typical examples = flags,
Comprehend Languages clearly only does Written Languages. But Eyes of the Rune Keeper should do all writing, but not logos, in my opinon. It is clearly supposed to be more powerful than Comprehend Languages.
Everyone knows that ☣️ means biohazard and ☢️ means radioactive. Is that a form of writing in your mind? If so, then EotRK should be able to decipher it. Like the way the TARDIS auto translates everything (except Gallifreyan) its people.
I have to admit that I have to think a lot to decipher ☣️ , but have an instinctual reaction to ☢️ means radioactive.
It took people hundreds of years to relearn how to decipher Hieroglyphics, it was still “writing” though.
I cannot read a darned thing (well, very few things) my friends kids txt each other using emojis, but they can. Is that “writing?” If you say no, my frien’s kids would say “🐃💩”
Yes, you can read all writing. If Einstein's theory of general relativity was written in an archaic language, you could read it. If you had average intelligence, you could understand it's underlying concepts. If you were a genius, you could understand the math attached to it.
Just to add that when assessing how much a feature can do, it’s helpful to compare it with other features of the same level. In this case we are talking about an Eldritch invocation. These are actually powerful things that mostly go beyond a simple 3rd level spell.
Other invocations he could have chosen are disguise self at will, sight through magical and regular darkness, never needing to sleep ever again, the ability to cast rituals (which comes with a bunch of cantrips).
if a simple Tongues spell lets you understand the meaning behind all audible words, then rune keeper should let you understand the meaning behind all written words.
one way of getting your head around it is that the magic is able to sense and discern the intent when the writer wrote those words. Like a kind of trace of telepathy that is left over.
Don’t short change the warlock. There are loads of fantastic invocations he could have chosen. Rune keeper has such limited use that when he gets to use it, it should do exactly what it says. He understands what the symbols mean.
I've always played it as a literal interpretation of the written language without any innate understanding of any "special meanings" the words or phrases might have beyond what your intellect might interpret it as. They would see a phrase like "a stitch in time saves nine" and read it literally, but it doesn't give you any understanding into what such a phrase means. You might be able to see a rogues cant and read it as "dog, cat, rooster, sunset", but won't let you understand what that means to a rogue - it's not really a language but more a set of writings that have significance to someone who can interpret them.
So as far as symbols go, if it's used as a specific language, then yes... they would understand it. If it's used simply to symbolize something, they either can't or will read it as something that might not have anything to do with what it is a symbol of.
I would note that being able to read alchemical symbols doesn't mean you can make sense of what's being said, any more than being able to speak English means you can understand a technical discussion in English about a topic you don't know much about.
Yes, you can read all writing. If Einstein's theory of general relativity was written in an archaic language, you could read it. If you had average intelligence, you could understand it's underlying concepts. If you were a genius, you could understand the math attached to it.
Well, maybe. I wouldn't expect eyes of the rune keeper to translate terms that don't actually exist in the languages you're familiar with.
Yes, you can read all writing. If Einstein's theory of general relativity was written in an archaic language, you could read it. If you had average intelligence, you could understand it's underlying concepts. If you were a genius, you could understand the math attached to it.
Well, maybe. I wouldn't expect eyes of the rune keeper to translate terms that don't actually exist in the languages you're familiar with.
I would expect them to be translated to definitions, but it would be almost impossible to understand.
Quantum Physics could be translated as
A theory of the mechanics of the smallest particles of matter and other physical systems that has a fundamental limit to the accuracy of predictions on paired physical qualities, such as position and momentum.
Right translation, but it takes someone to teach/explain that sentence. Otherwise you just go Huh?
Especially if the original sentence said "Teleportation is required by Quantum Physics"
One of my players has just taken Eyes of the Rune Keeper. Now I have planned and planted In my story some puzzles that use alchemical symbols. My question is, would Eyes of the Rune Keeper enable him to “read” those symbols, and know which alchemical ingredient they referred to?
Allow me to put forward my idea.
Something like a Shadowmark, a Glyph, or such other single image doesn't make sense to be "read". You either know the symbolism of the image, or you don't. A letter may be a symbol, but not all symbols are letters. Furthermore, even if you can "read" something, it doesn't mean you "understand" the meaning. Things like Thieves' Cant or jargon could obscure the meaning. Therefore, I would say that Eyes of the Rune Keeper doesn't help.
Is the symbol in question part of a language?
If yes, then EotRK will decipher it.
If no, it's just a symbol and EotRK will not be relevant.
In theory a pictographic language could become a problematic grey area, but that would kind of depend on where on the spectrum of Egyptian Hieroglyphics to caveman pictograms we're talking about.
Thank you, that the way I'm leaning, but I wanted to make sure that it wasn't just because it suits my game for him not to be immediately able to read it. In my mind a symbol isn't strictly a language. The things I have in mind are a little like zodiac symbols - and I think you would have to be familiar with the signs of the zodiac to know what the symbol mean.
No the symbols are the traditional alchemical symbols for things like mercury and sulphur. My gut feeling is that they can't be understood as writing because a knowledge of alchemy would be needed for them to make sense. And yes, it was the issue of photographic languages such as hieroglyphics that were causing me to waver. Thank you for helping me to sort it out in my head!
Eyes of the Rune Keeper says writing, not languages.
I would make the distinction as this:
Comprehend Languages clearly only does Written Languages. But Eyes of the Rune Keeper should do all writing, but not logos, in my opinon. It is clearly supposed to be more powerful than Comprehend Languages.
Everyone knows that ☣️ means biohazard and ☢️ means radioactive. Is that a form of writing in your mind? If so, then EotRK should be able to decipher it. Like the way the TARDIS auto translates everything (except Gallifreyan) its people.
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I let the feature understand symbols, but not codes--that is, something that was intentionally written to mislead.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I have to admit that I have to think a lot to decipher ☣️ , but have an instinctual reaction to ☢️ means radioactive.
It took people hundreds of years to relearn how to decipher Hieroglyphics, it was still “writing” though.
I cannot read a darned thing (well, very few things) my friends kids txt each other using emojis, but they can. Is that “writing?” If you say no, my frien’s kids would say “🐃💩”
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Yes, you can read all writing. If Einstein's theory of general relativity was written in an archaic language, you could read it. If you had average intelligence, you could understand it's underlying concepts. If you were a genius, you could understand the math attached to it.
Just to add that when assessing how much a feature can do, it’s helpful to compare it with other features of the same level. In this case we are talking about an Eldritch invocation. These are actually powerful things that mostly go beyond a simple 3rd level spell.
Other invocations he could have chosen are disguise self at will, sight through magical and regular darkness, never needing to sleep ever again, the ability to cast rituals (which comes with a bunch of cantrips).
if a simple Tongues spell lets you understand the meaning behind all audible words, then rune keeper should let you understand the meaning behind all written words.
one way of getting your head around it is that the magic is able to sense and discern the intent when the writer wrote those words. Like a kind of trace of telepathy that is left over.
Don’t short change the warlock. There are loads of fantastic invocations he could have chosen. Rune keeper has such limited use that when he gets to use it, it should do exactly what it says. He understands what the symbols mean.
That makes me think of Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Shaka, when the walls fell. (My favorite episode of all time.)
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Sokath, his eyes uncovered!
I've always played it as a literal interpretation of the written language without any innate understanding of any "special meanings" the words or phrases might have beyond what your intellect might interpret it as. They would see a phrase like "a stitch in time saves nine" and read it literally, but it doesn't give you any understanding into what such a phrase means. You might be able to see a rogues cant and read it as "dog, cat, rooster, sunset", but won't let you understand what that means to a rogue - it's not really a language but more a set of writings that have significance to someone who can interpret them.
So as far as symbols go, if it's used as a specific language, then yes... they would understand it. If it's used simply to symbolize something, they either can't or will read it as something that might not have anything to do with what it is a symbol of.
I would note that being able to read alchemical symbols doesn't mean you can make sense of what's being said, any more than being able to speak English means you can understand a technical discussion in English about a topic you don't know much about.
So it should allow you to know the ingredient's name by this logic, but you would need to find somone who understood what it means.
Well, maybe. I wouldn't expect eyes of the rune keeper to translate terms that don't actually exist in the languages you're familiar with.
I would expect them to be translated to definitions, but it would be almost impossible to understand.
Quantum Physics could be translated as
Right translation, but it takes someone to teach/explain that sentence. Otherwise you just go Huh?
Especially if the original sentence said "Teleportation is required by Quantum Physics"