If you know beforehand of an combat encounter, like say an ambush you are preparing, could you use hide and then use the ready action beforehand? then when the target comes, you attack as a reaction and then have the target surprised so you can get an additional action?
Readying an action is something that occurs in Combat, not outside of it. Yes, it makes sense that you'd be able to say "I want to shoot my arrow when they come around the bend, then leap out of hiding and surprise them!"... but in practice it really bogs down and imbalances combats once the group starts demanding alpha strike rounds for every new room they walk into in the dungeon.
For 90% of encounters, regular initiative roll-offs are appropriate.
For the 10% or so times when the players truly are setting an "ambush" and not just kicking in a door expecting trouble, then Surprise Round mechanics are appropriate.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
If you attack as a reaction your attack goes off but you are no longer hiding so you do not have the benefit of surprise.
If you ready an action a DM might rule that you don't need to be hidden, so if you say I will ready eldritch blast as soon as the bad guys walks through the door he doesn't have time to register your presence and therefore you get your attack off before initiative is rolled. The disadvantge of readying an action over hiding and hoing for surprise is that you only get a single attack off rather than a fuill turn.
The problem with this approach is if the bad guy hears the party in the room and readies an actrion to cast erupting earth as soon as he enters the door you then have two readied actions with the same trigger so which one goes off first?
As a DM I tend to not allow readied actions out of combat. If the players want to attack at a given trigger when the trigger happens at the trigger we roll initiative and characters are surprised if approprate. If a play just comes out with "I attack the elf" (say if negotiations are going badly) I will let that attack go off before rolling initiative.
If they manage to surprise the other side then the party essentially takes their readied actions during the surprise round (the order of their actions is resolved by initiative). They don't get two rounds of attacks without the possibility of the opponents responding.
If they don't manage to surprise the opponents (maybe they weren't hidden well enough and some of the opponents noticed the ambush and had time to react) then it really doesn't matter whether they readied their attacks or not.
It is usually better to have the players roll initiative sooner rather than later and emphasize that if the players do get a surprise round then their "readied" or prepared attacks are the ones that they are making while the opponents are surprised. Everyone in the party gets at least one attack this way before the opponents can start responding with anything but reactions (and reactions can only be taken after the opponents first turn initiative has gone past).
There is no such thing as a Surprise Round anymore. That is the actual problem with Surprise rules. There are just Surprised creatures in a normal round. So, despite the fact that you know that there is someone to Ambush, a crappy Initiative roll on your part could easily cost you any advantage that Surprise would afford.
Example: I come out of the bathroom as you were waiting there for me to exit so, that you could scare me. I roll a 20 and come out not expecting you, I stop and stare at you, "Omg, you surprised me", as I pause there(take no action and end my turn). You have a 15 and attempt your scare a little late, "Nice try", I say(using my reaction that I have after losing it on my turn but, gain back after my turn ended).
There is no such thing as a Surprise Round anymore. That is the actual problem with Surprise rules. There are just Surprised creatures in a normal round. So, despite the fact that you know that there is someone to Ambush, a crappy Initiative roll on your part could easily cost you any advantage that Surprise would afford.
Example: I come out of the bathroom as you were waiting there for me to exit so, that you could scare me. I roll a 20 and come out not expecting you, I stop and stare at you, "Omg, you surprised me", as I pause there(take no action and end my turn). You have a 15 and attempt your scare a little late, "Nice try", I say(using my reaction that I have after losing it on my turn but, gain back after my turn ended).
So, whaaat!!??
Obviously, the person waiting outside failed their stealth check :)
If they were still hidden when you had initiative, you still would not have seen them and they would still have advantage on their BOO tactic. On the other hand, your scenario describes a case where you were surprised but still noticed the threat, you were given enough time that you recognized they were there and although you don't have time to do anything, their BOO attempt was really quite pathetic :) (which in the real world isn't actually all that uncommon ..)
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In a D&D sense there are two mechanics at work.
1) Surprise. Is the creature surprised by the presence of an opponent. If they are then they lose their turn in the first round and can only take reactions after their turn has passed.
2) Hidden. Is the attacker hidden from the creature. If the attacker is hidden (both unseen and unheard) then they can make the first attack of the first round with advantage.
In the case of waiting for someone to come out the door ...
- the attacker hides to one side or the other of the door
- the DM determines whether the defender notices the attacker and whether the DM decides whether the attacker is seen by the defender. If the attacker is clearly visible then the defender may be surprised but the attacker may not gain the benefit of being hidden. On the other hand, if the defender turns away from the attacker on exiting the room then the DM could rule that the defender is both surprised and that the attacker remains hidden for their first attack.
Of course this is easier for a ranged ambush from cover like trees or bushes. In that case, surprise and remaining hidden until after you make your first attack are both pretty likely.
Either way the D&D initiative system does make it a bit clunky but using both surprise and hidden in the first round doesn't do a terrible job for ambushes.
You're right, of course, it's not terrible. I'm just used to other games that assume that if you don't know there is combat going on, you don't roll any initiative or spend your turn doing something or nothing. When you are aware that you are in combat, such as being hit, or alerted by some other condition, you should then roll initiative that will apply in the NEXT round.
Just the way it makes sense to me and has been done in other systems.
There is no such thing as a Surprise Round anymore. That is the actual problem with Surprise rules. There are just Surprised creatures in a normal round. So, despite the fact that you know that there is someone to Ambush, a crappy Initiative roll on your part could easily cost you any advantage that Surprise would afford.
Example: I come out of the bathroom as you were waiting there for me to exit so, that you could scare me. I roll a 20 and come out not expecting you, I stop and stare at you, "Omg, you surprised me", as I pause there(take no action and end my turn). You have a 15 and attempt your scare a little late, "Nice try", I say(using my reaction that I have after losing it on my turn but, gain back after my turn ended).
So, whaaat!!??
This would only happen if you lost initiative and the opponent had the Alert feat. Without the feat you might lose initiative, but you would still get the first action.
There is no such thing as a Surprise Round anymore. That is the actual problem with Surprise rules. There are just Surprised creatures in a normal round. So, despite the fact that you know that there is someone to Ambush, a crappy Initiative roll on your part could easily cost you any advantage that Surprise would afford.
Example: I come out of the bathroom as you were waiting there for me to exit so, that you could scare me. I roll a 20 and come out not expecting you, I stop and stare at you, "Omg, you surprised me", as I pause there(take no action and end my turn). You have a 15 and attempt your scare a little late, "Nice try", I say(using my reaction that I have after losing it on my turn but, gain back after my turn ended).
So, whaaat!!??
This would only happen if you lost initiative and the opponent had the Alert feat. Without the feat you might lose initiative, but you would still get the first action.
It's really not that hard to lose initiative, I'm a master at it. As I already conceded to David, his evaluation was correct, so obviously, yours is as well.
Per RAW, and incorrectly described above, Surprise is a condition and not a round. Also, a readied action uses a character's reaction.
A surprised creature cannot move, take and action, bonus action, or reaction on their turn or during that round of combat.
Given they can't take a reaction, they can't use their readied action as they use their reaction to perform the readied action.
Flavor wise, they were prepared to do a thing, but they were caught so off guard that they forgot to do it or were incapable of carrying out said thing.
This is wrong, this is the line: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
In the bold print, both refer to your turn. It is not the first round. If you get initiative over everyone else, you have your turn first while being incapable of doing anything. The thing is, you finish your turn and end the Surprised condition before anyone can act on it.
Lyxen, I have 2 things to point out, I already mentioned one but, I'll repeat it. Surprise only lasts until the Surprised creature has finished it's turn. If they meant round, that would be a whole different thing. Especially if 5 attackers jumped you and you had no reaction until after the end of said round.
If you lost initiative against 2 attackers, took your turn of doing nothing and completed your turn ending Surprise, you could use Shield when the 3rd through 5th attackers took their actions against you. This is how it could play out as I quoted before as: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
Second thing, you can actually ready an action as if it is out of combat. By your intent to start combat, you force everyone into initiative rolls, whether or not they know that combat is imminent is irrelevant. You declare your action and the trigger. When the trigger occurs, the action takes place. If it is when the highest initiative players is visible to shoot or halfway through the round when the big bad comes along. If the trigger never occurs, you lose your action, that's the price you pay for possibly acting out of turn but, according to circumstance.
Lyxen, I have 2 things to point out, I already mentioned one but, I'll repeat it. Surprise only lasts until the Surprised creature has finished it's turn. If they meant round, that would be a whole different thing. Especially if 5 attackers jumped you and you had no reaction until after the end of said round.
If you lost initiative against 2 attackers, took your turn of doing nothing and completed your turn ending Surprise, you could use Shield when the 3rd through 5th attackers took their actions against you. This is how it could play out as I quoted before as: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
Second thing, you can actually ready an action as if it is out of combat. By your intent to start combat, you force everyone into initiative rolls, whether or not they know that combat is imminent is irrelevant. You declare your action and the trigger. When the trigger occurs, the action takes place. If it is when the highest initiative players is visible to shoot or halfway through the round when the big bad comes along. If the trigger never occurs, you lose your action, that's the price you pay for possibly acting out of turn but, according to circumstance.
I think you might have overlooked two points that contradict your theory. About Readied Actions. If the PCs are the ones facing Surprise, then they are obviously not the ones initiating combat, the DM is.
As soon as the DM says “roll for initiative,” combat has begun, and a player must wait until their character’s turn to declare anything, so they cannot declare that they are readying an action until their turn.Since they can not take any Action on their turn, they cannot take the ready action on their turn.
So, the Player would have had to declare their intent to ready an action. But as soon as the DM says “roll for initiative,” the PCs are in combat, and cannot take any Reactions until after their turn. As soon as their turn begins, the readied action drops and must be re-readied, which the PC cannot do because they cannot take actions.
So, for that PC to use an Action readied before combat, the triggering event must take place before the DM says “roll for initiative.” Therefore, that action happens outside of combat. But if the PC can react before combat, then obviously they are not surprised, and therefore it doesn’t matter anyway.
Ergo, if the PCs are surprised, they cannot take a readied action until after their second turn when they are both: no longer surprised; and have had an opportunity to take an action on their turn.
All true and overly complicated. Suffice to say, I have players roll OOC initiative just for these reasons. Secondly, they do it because I hate everyone talking at once.
So, to anyone arguing the can' t do actions out of combat paradox. How pray tell, does anyone make a Stealth roll against enemies while out of combat and not having a turn?
All true and overly complicated. Suffice to say, I have players roll OOC initiative just for these reasons. Secondly, they do it because I hate everyone talking at once.
So, to anyone arguing the can' t do actions out of combat paradox. How pray tell, does anyone make a Stealth roll against enemies while out of combat and not having a turn?
You can totally take actions outside of combat. Who said you couldn’t?
The fact that there's nothing in the rules suggesting that "rounds" or "actions" exist outside of combat? Every bit of that vocabulary is found in Chapter 9: Combat. The only leaking of the "Action" that I can think of is probably the casting time for spells, Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores doesn't say that you need an Action to make a Stealth check to hide or anything else, you won't find the word "Action" used in that sense anywhere in that chapter.
Lyxen I think the only difference between your scenarios and mine is that I belive your approach limits what players can do in the first round (the "readied action" round). My players can state a trigger for the start of combat and when that trigger happens initiative is rolled. Similarly the NPCs can have a trigger for starting combat.
Furthermore if A's stated rolled played aim for the ambush is "I hide and as some as someone enters I initiate combat" in your case A1 above (A has highest initiative and is surprised)
A has his turn on round 1. He can not only carry out an action but has a full turn So for example he could cast Hex on the creature, then cast eldritch blast then move into melee range. It also means he can be flexible with his options rather than readied action of eldritch blast if he sees a creature in full plate armor and a shield he can cast toll the dead instead.
B is surprised so can not take any actions or move, he is able to make reactions after the end of this this
A has his turn on round 2, maybe an attack with a sword, which B uses his reaction to deflect with shield. A can also use a bonus action and movement
If you know beforehand of an combat encounter, like say an ambush you are preparing, could you use hide and then use the ready action beforehand? then when the target comes, you attack as a reaction and then have the target surprised so you can get an additional action?
Readying an action is something that occurs in Combat, not outside of it. Yes, it makes sense that you'd be able to say "I want to shoot my arrow when they come around the bend, then leap out of hiding and surprise them!"... but in practice it really bogs down and imbalances combats once the group starts demanding alpha strike rounds for every new room they walk into in the dungeon.
For 90% of encounters, regular initiative roll-offs are appropriate.
For the 10% or so times when the players truly are setting an "ambush" and not just kicking in a door expecting trouble, then Surprise Round mechanics are appropriate.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You don't get it twice
From the PHB
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
If you attack as a reaction your attack goes off but you are no longer hiding so you do not have the benefit of surprise.
If you ready an action a DM might rule that you don't need to be hidden, so if you say I will ready eldritch blast as soon as the bad guys walks through the door he doesn't have time to register your presence and therefore you get your attack off before initiative is rolled. The disadvantge of readying an action over hiding and hoing for surprise is that you only get a single attack off rather than a fuill turn.
The problem with this approach is if the bad guy hears the party in the room and readies an actrion to cast erupting earth as soon as he enters the door you then have two readied actions with the same trigger so which one goes off first?
As a DM I tend to not allow readied actions out of combat. If the players want to attack at a given trigger when the trigger happens at the trigger we roll initiative and characters are surprised if approprate. If a play just comes out with "I attack the elf" (say if negotiations are going badly) I will let that attack go off before rolling initiative.
If they manage to surprise the other side then the party essentially takes their readied actions during the surprise round (the order of their actions is resolved by initiative). They don't get two rounds of attacks without the possibility of the opponents responding.
If they don't manage to surprise the opponents (maybe they weren't hidden well enough and some of the opponents noticed the ambush and had time to react) then it really doesn't matter whether they readied their attacks or not.
It is usually better to have the players roll initiative sooner rather than later and emphasize that if the players do get a surprise round then their "readied" or prepared attacks are the ones that they are making while the opponents are surprised. Everyone in the party gets at least one attack this way before the opponents can start responding with anything but reactions (and reactions can only be taken after the opponents first turn initiative has gone past).
There is no such thing as a Surprise Round anymore. That is the actual problem with Surprise rules. There are just Surprised creatures in a normal round. So, despite the fact that you know that there is someone to Ambush, a crappy Initiative roll on your part could easily cost you any advantage that Surprise would afford.
Example: I come out of the bathroom as you were waiting there for me to exit so, that you could scare me. I roll a 20 and come out not expecting you, I stop and stare at you, "Omg, you surprised me", as I pause there(take no action and end my turn). You have a 15 and attempt your scare a little late, "Nice try", I say(using my reaction that I have after losing it on my turn but, gain back after my turn ended).
So, whaaat!!??
Obviously, the person waiting outside failed their stealth check :)
If they were still hidden when you had initiative, you still would not have seen them and they would still have advantage on their BOO tactic. On the other hand, your scenario describes a case where you were surprised but still noticed the threat, you were given enough time that you recognized they were there and although you don't have time to do anything, their BOO attempt was really quite pathetic :) (which in the real world isn't actually all that uncommon ..)
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In a D&D sense there are two mechanics at work.
1) Surprise. Is the creature surprised by the presence of an opponent. If they are then they lose their turn in the first round and can only take reactions after their turn has passed.
2) Hidden. Is the attacker hidden from the creature. If the attacker is hidden (both unseen and unheard) then they can make the first attack of the first round with advantage.
In the case of waiting for someone to come out the door ...
- the attacker hides to one side or the other of the door
- the DM determines whether the defender notices the attacker and whether the DM decides whether the attacker is seen by the defender. If the attacker is clearly visible then the defender may be surprised but the attacker may not gain the benefit of being hidden. On the other hand, if the defender turns away from the attacker on exiting the room then the DM could rule that the defender is both surprised and that the attacker remains hidden for their first attack.
Of course this is easier for a ranged ambush from cover like trees or bushes. In that case, surprise and remaining hidden until after you make your first attack are both pretty likely.
Either way the D&D initiative system does make it a bit clunky but using both surprise and hidden in the first round doesn't do a terrible job for ambushes.
You're right, of course, it's not terrible. I'm just used to other games that assume that if you don't know there is combat going on, you don't roll any initiative or spend your turn doing something or nothing. When you are aware that you are in combat, such as being hit, or alerted by some other condition, you should then roll initiative that will apply in the NEXT round.
Just the way it makes sense to me and has been done in other systems.
What if i ready a ranged attack and have the skulker feat
This would only happen if you lost initiative and the opponent had the Alert feat. Without the feat you might lose initiative, but you would still get the first action.
It's really not that hard to lose initiative, I'm a master at it. As I already conceded to David, his evaluation was correct, so obviously, yours is as well.
This is wrong, this is the line: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
In the bold print, both refer to your turn. It is not the first round. If you get initiative over everyone else, you have your turn first while being incapable of doing anything. The thing is, you finish your turn and end the Surprised condition before anyone can act on it.
Yeah, but you can’t take the Ready action on your first turn if you are surprised as that still requires an “action.”
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Lyxen, I have 2 things to point out, I already mentioned one but, I'll repeat it. Surprise only lasts until the Surprised creature has finished it's turn. If they meant round, that would be a whole different thing. Especially if 5 attackers jumped you and you had no reaction until after the end of said round.
If you lost initiative against 2 attackers, took your turn of doing nothing and completed your turn ending Surprise, you could use Shield when the 3rd through 5th attackers took their actions against you. This is how it could play out as I quoted before as: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
Second thing, you can actually ready an action as if it is out of combat. By your intent to start combat, you force everyone into initiative rolls, whether or not they know that combat is imminent is irrelevant. You declare your action and the trigger. When the trigger occurs, the action takes place. If it is when the highest initiative players is visible to shoot or halfway through the round when the big bad comes along. If the trigger never occurs, you lose your action, that's the price you pay for possibly acting out of turn but, according to circumstance.
I think you might have overlooked two points that contradict your theory. About Readied Actions. If the PCs are the ones facing Surprise, then they are obviously not the ones initiating combat, the DM is.
As soon as the DM says “roll for initiative,” combat has begun, and a player must wait until their character’s turn to declare anything, so they cannot declare that they are readying an action until their turn.Since they can not take any Action on their turn, they cannot take the ready action on their turn.
So, the Player would have had to declare their intent to ready an action. But as soon as the DM says “roll for initiative,” the PCs are in combat, and cannot take any Reactions until after their turn. As soon as their turn begins, the readied action drops and must be re-readied, which the PC cannot do because they cannot take actions.
So, for that PC to use an Action readied before combat, the triggering event must take place before the DM says “roll for initiative.” Therefore, that action happens outside of combat. But if the PC can react before combat, then obviously they are not surprised, and therefore it doesn’t matter anyway.
Ergo, if the PCs are surprised, they cannot take a readied action until after their second turn when they are both: no longer surprised; and have had an opportunity to take an action on their turn.
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All true and overly complicated. Suffice to say, I have players roll OOC initiative just for these reasons. Secondly, they do it because I hate everyone talking at once.
So, to anyone arguing the can' t do actions out of combat paradox. How pray tell, does anyone make a Stealth roll against enemies while out of combat and not having a turn?
I already admitted my mistakes just before your post but, yes.
You can totally take actions outside of combat. Who said you couldn’t?
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The fact that there's nothing in the rules suggesting that "rounds" or "actions" exist outside of combat? Every bit of that vocabulary is found in Chapter 9: Combat. The only leaking of the "Action" that I can think of is probably the casting time for spells, Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores doesn't say that you need an Action to make a Stealth check to hide or anything else, you won't find the word "Action" used in that sense anywhere in that chapter.
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Lyxen I think the only difference between your scenarios and mine is that I belive your approach limits what players can do in the first round (the "readied action" round). My players can state a trigger for the start of combat and when that trigger happens initiative is rolled. Similarly the NPCs can have a trigger for starting combat.
Furthermore if A's stated rolled played aim for the ambush is "I hide and as some as someone enters I initiate combat"
in your case A1 above (A has highest initiative and is surprised)