TL;DR: I think the Flaming Sphere can cause damage twice per round (but with different DCs for each): once when used as your bonus action (DC = sphere's damage), and once at the end of it's turn (DC = normal spell save DC), for total potential 4d6 per round at 2nd level. Is this your understanding of the spell?
I find the Flaming Sphere spell to be confusingly worded; specifically, the ramming section.
The spell states:
"Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of the sphere must make a Dexterity saving throw. The creature takes 2d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
As a bonus action, you can move the sphere up to 30 feet. If you ram the sphere into a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the sphere's damage, and the sphere stops moving this turn."
The confusing part is that is does not specify what happens to a creature hit by the ram after they make a saving throw.
If you look at the description literally, "must make the saving throw" seems like when the target next makes a saving throw at the end of its next turn, it replaces your spell DC with the damage or something.
Presumably it means "must make an additional saving throw immediately, taking 2d6 fire damage, or half as much damage on a successful save."
It just means you use the same saving throw against both and works the same way (Dex save vs Spell Save DC, 2d6 fire on fail, half on success).
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The sphere /can/ cause damage twice. When you ram it into something, the creature saves and takes damage. If it ends it's turn next to the ball (did not use it's movement to escape) then it saves and takes damage again.
The save is /always/ the character's DC, the DC does not vary based on the sphere's damage. I understand why you read it as save vs the sphere's damage, but that's an incorrect reading. The intent is that you make a dex save vs the /spell's/ DC or take damage, not that you save and use the spell's damage number as the DC. .
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The only saves made after a damage roll are typically secondary effects of attacks (attack rolls), and concentration saves. This is a pure saving throw spell, so the RAI is almost assuredly that the save is made against the casters spell save DC and the effect is damage (halved on a successful save).
“Against the sphere’s damage” only means that the sphere’s damage is the consequence of failure; it does not mean the sphere’s damage is the DC. It would say that if it meant that.
I do think the phrasing is confusing and could be improved.
If you look at the description literally, "must make the saving throw"
This is a 'proof by verbocity' logical fallacy. It means that you're mistakenly substituting language for logic. While the particulars of language is important for many applications of 5e rules, this is not one of them. This instance does not imply singularity, and the choice of language is not meaningful here.
Flaming Sphere definitely can damage a creature more than once per round. You can damage a creature by ramming on your turn, and a creature can be damaged by ending their turn next to the sphere. Any-and-all instances require an explicit saving throw.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's pretty straightforward really: You move it as a bonus action on your turn and use it to ram someone, they get the saving throw and take appropriate damage, the sphere stops moving where it hits. If there are any creatures that then end their turn within 5ft of the sphere they also roll their save at the end of their turn and take the appropriate damage. If a creature is stupid enough to remain in the same spot after being rammed then it has to make a second saving through and take damage a second time at the end of it's turn. It does not use the same saving throw from when it was rammed. They are 2 separate things. The DC is 8 + casting stat bonus + prof bonus every time.
Flaming sphere can definitely damage the same creature twice in a round. Once using a bonus action on your turn and one more time if that creature ends their turn within 5 feet of the sphere.
There might be a way of getting a third damage roll within a round if you cast Flaming Sphere in midair above a creature's head. The way the third paragraph describes the sphere's movement implies it will fall to the ground on it's own. Whether or not that triggers the creature to make a saving throw or take damage as a result of it falling on them depends on the DM's decision as technically you weren't the one doing the ramming in that moment but gravity.
Note that particular tactic can only be done when the flaming sphere first appears as any other time moving the sphere will require you to use your bonus action.
There might be a way of getting a third damage roll within a round if you cast Flaming Sphere in midair above a creature's head.
No. For one thing, the spell clearly implies that there is no vertical leeway. You can roll it (contact with surface not broken) over an obstacle no taller than 5 feet. You can jump it across a gap no wider than 10 feet, but this does not tell you that the sphere gains elevation while doing so.
As for "manifesting" it in the air? Even if a DM allowed that, the result is the same--the sphere falls to the ground without accomplishing anything. You didn't use your bonus action, so even if a creature is there you do not get to call that a "ram". If anything, I'd say your spell fizzles because you're effectively trying to cast it in a space which isn't actually unoccupied.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
There might be a way of getting a third damage roll within a round if you cast Flaming Sphere in midair above a creature's head.
No. For one thing, the spell clearly implies that there is no vertical leeway. You can roll it (contact with surface not broken) over an obstacle no taller than 5 feet. You can jump it across a gap no wider than 10 feet, but this does not tell you that the sphere gains elevation while doing so.
As for "manifesting" it in the air? Even if a DM allowed that, the result is the same--the sphere falls to the ground without accomplishing anything. You didn't use your bonus action, so even if a creature is there you do not get to call that a "ram". If anything, I'd say your spell fizzles because you're effectively trying to cast it in a space which isn't actually unoccupied.
I'm not talking about making the sphere fly. This isn't an option available every turn the Flaming Sphere is around. Only on the turn it appears. It's a one time thing at best.
"Above an enemy" doesn't mean directly within that enemy's space. The sphere "appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range" the range is 60 feet. It doesn't specify that that space must be on the ground.
Last I checked creatures don't command the vertical space above them up to 60 feet. Creatures command a space based on their size so for a medium creature, who commands a 5 foot cube of space, 10 feet above their head is perfectly valid as "an unoccupied space" and quite easily within range of the spell.
RAW allows it to be manifested in midair. Period. Unless there's something somewhere in the rules the forbids "an unoccupied space" as appearing anywhere other than on the ground.
Obviously the DM can rule otherwise. Obviously the DM can decide whether or not that grants an extra opportunity for damage. Obviously the DM can rule as to whether or not that counts as a "ram." Obviously the DM can decide whether or not the player would be able to use a bonus action after that to move the sphere or that the fact that it already collided means that "the sphere stops moving this turn." In which case the only benefit of this strategy is freeing up a bonus action for a single turn. Obviously the DM can decide whether or not attempting this makes the player a despicable cheater or just trying to work creatively within the rules. Obviously the DM can decide whether such a tactic is broken as shit or not even worth arguing over in the first dang place.
I'd say your spell fizzles because you're effectively trying to cast it in a space which isn't actually unoccupied.
The spell damages a creature when they end their turn next to it, or when you use your bonus action to ram. In absolutely no other instances will the spell cause damage to a creature.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
"Above an enemy" doesn't mean directly within that enemy's space. The sphere "appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range" the range is 60 feet. It doesn't specify that that space must be on the ground.
Last I checked creatures don't command the vertical space above them up to 60 feet. Creatures command a space based on their size so for a medium creature, who commands a 5 foot cube of space, 10 feet above their head is perfectly valid as "an unoccupied space" and quite easily within range of the spell.
RAW allows it to be manifested in midair. Period. Unless there's something somewhere in the rules the forbids "an unoccupied space" as appearing anywhere other than on the ground.
As for "manifesting" it in the air? Even if a DM allowed that, the result is the same--the sphere falls to the ground without accomplishing anything. You didn't use your bonus action, so even if a creature is there you do not get to call that a "ram".
As far as I can tell that right there is RAW to the letter.
I'd say your spell fizzles because you're effectively trying to cast it in a space which isn't actually unoccupied.
The spell damages a creature when they end their turn next to it, or when you use your bonus action to ram. In absolutely no other instances will the spell cause damage to a creature.
Precisely where does a creature's occupation of space above their head end then? 5 feet? 10 feet? 60 feet? 100 feet? Or is that space occupied all the way to the heavens?
I'm not trying to cast it in their space I'm just taking advantage of the available combat area. Trying to think in 3 dimensions in a game that allows thinking in three dimensions.
Simply ruling that the damage doesn't happen when the sphere falls would be enough. Then I'd still need to use a bonus action to move the sphere. It'd be effectively the same as if I had cast flaming sphere 10 feet away from the creature on the ground and rolled it into them.
Then I could at least feel creative without getting any mechanical benefit from it if the DM feels dead set on preventing that from being a thing.
Simply ruling that the damage doesn't happen when the sphere falls would be enough.
That is what has already been stated.
The point I'm trying to make here is that whether you cast at a point in the air or not is pedantic; you are going to get the exact same end result of a flaming sphere in an unoccupied space on the ground.
Does the sphere fall from where you cast it? Yes.
Does a creature directly underneath the sphere get damaged by it falling? No.
Does the sphere stop in the occupied space? No, it would land in the nearest unoccupied space within the casting range.
You can't cheese this spell in any way, so there's no point in not simply designating the proper point of origin.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Simply ruling that the damage doesn't happen when the sphere falls would be enough.
That is what has already been stated.
The point I'm trying to make here is that whether you cast at a point in the air or not is pedantic; you are going to get the exact same end result of a flaming sphere in an unoccupied space on the ground.
Does the sphere fall from where you cast it? Yes.
Does a creature directly underneath the sphere get damaged by it falling? No.
Does the sphere stop in the occupied space? No, it would land in the nearest unoccupied space within the casting range.
You can't cheese this spell in any way, so there's no point in not simply designating the proper point of origin.
Whether or not that triggers the creature to make a saving throw or take damage as a result of it falling on them depends on the DM's decision
You were the one asserting that it'd be casting within an occupied space. You were adding the additional point of saying the spell would fizzle outright. Neither of which is true.
I'm well aware of the fact that RAW this doesn't make the spell cheesable. Even if it were allowed then it's only a first turn benefit. I've been acknowledging this from the firstpost I made in this thread. That's the entire point why I mentioned it being dependant on the DM.
I guess I was trying to see if other people thought this was a reasonable thing to bring up or ask about trying to do in a session to which apparently the answer is is a hard flat no.
My apologies if I muddied the waters here on the OP's original question.
No prob, I'm not trying to dig into anyone. I ask you to remember that this is Rules & Game Mechanics, not homebrew/general discussion/tips & tricks/etc. We care about the rules as they actually work in these discussions, so a clear definition of what the spell does by RAW is what we're typically after here.
RAW, the sphere does no damage to anything by falling. The sphere can only damage a creature via the caster using their bonus action to ram, or by a creature ending their turn next to the sphere. That's it.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You can of course get more than two damage instances in a round if you have some means of taking multiple bonus actions during a round, or your target has multiple turns within a single round (Thief's Action allows either one to happen).
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TL;DR: I think the Flaming Sphere can cause damage twice per round (but with different DCs for each): once when used as your bonus action (DC = sphere's damage), and once at the end of it's turn (DC = normal spell save DC), for total potential 4d6 per round at 2nd level. Is this your understanding of the spell?
I find the Flaming Sphere spell to be confusingly worded; specifically, the ramming section.
The spell states:
The confusing part is that is does not specify what happens to a creature hit by the ram after they make a saving throw.
If you look at the description literally, "must make the saving throw" seems like when the target next makes a saving throw at the end of its next turn, it replaces your spell DC with the damage or something.
Presumably it means "must make an additional saving throw immediately, taking 2d6 fire damage, or half as much damage on a successful save."
Thoughts?
It just means you use the same saving throw against both and works the same way (Dex save vs Spell Save DC, 2d6 fire on fail, half on success).
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Why would the DC be equal to the Sphere's damage? 2d6 means it would be DC12 at most and as low as DC2...?
They use the same DC and same type of saving throw.
The sphere /can/ cause damage twice. When you ram it into something, the creature saves and takes damage. If it ends it's turn next to the ball (did not use it's movement to escape) then it saves and takes damage again.
The save is /always/ the character's DC, the DC does not vary based on the sphere's damage. I understand why you read it as save vs the sphere's damage, but that's an incorrect reading. The intent is that you make a dex save vs the /spell's/ DC or take damage, not that you save and use the spell's damage number as the DC. .
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
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The only saves made after a damage roll are typically secondary effects of attacks (attack rolls), and concentration saves. This is a pure saving throw spell, so the RAI is almost assuredly that the save is made against the casters spell save DC and the effect is damage (halved on a successful save).
“Against the sphere’s damage” only means that the sphere’s damage is the consequence of failure; it does not mean the sphere’s damage is the DC. It would say that if it meant that.
I do think the phrasing is confusing and could be improved.
This is a 'proof by verbocity' logical fallacy. It means that you're mistakenly substituting language for logic. While the particulars of language is important for many applications of 5e rules, this is not one of them. This instance does not imply singularity, and the choice of language is not meaningful here.
Flaming Sphere definitely can damage a creature more than once per round. You can damage a creature by ramming on your turn, and a creature can be damaged by ending their turn next to the sphere. Any-and-all instances require an explicit saving throw.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's pretty straightforward really: You move it as a bonus action on your turn and use it to ram someone, they get the saving throw and take appropriate damage, the sphere stops moving where it hits. If there are any creatures that then end their turn within 5ft of the sphere they also roll their save at the end of their turn and take the appropriate damage. If a creature is stupid enough to remain in the same spot after being rammed then it has to make a second saving through and take damage a second time at the end of it's turn. It does not use the same saving throw from when it was rammed. They are 2 separate things. The DC is 8 + casting stat bonus + prof bonus every time.
Flaming sphere can definitely damage the same creature twice in a round. Once using a bonus action on your turn and one more time if that creature ends their turn within 5 feet of the sphere.
There might be a way of getting a third damage roll within a round if you cast Flaming Sphere in midair above a creature's head. The way the third paragraph describes the sphere's movement implies it will fall to the ground on it's own. Whether or not that triggers the creature to make a saving throw or take damage as a result of it falling on them depends on the DM's decision as technically you weren't the one doing the ramming in that moment but gravity.
Note that particular tactic can only be done when the flaming sphere first appears as any other time moving the sphere will require you to use your bonus action.
No. For one thing, the spell clearly implies that there is no vertical leeway. You can roll it (contact with surface not broken) over an obstacle no taller than 5 feet. You can jump it across a gap no wider than 10 feet, but this does not tell you that the sphere gains elevation while doing so.
As for "manifesting" it in the air? Even if a DM allowed that, the result is the same--the sphere falls to the ground without accomplishing anything. You didn't use your bonus action, so even if a creature is there you do not get to call that a "ram". If anything, I'd say your spell fizzles because you're effectively trying to cast it in a space which isn't actually unoccupied.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm not talking about making the sphere fly. This isn't an option available every turn the Flaming Sphere is around. Only on the turn it appears. It's a one time thing at best.
"Above an enemy" doesn't mean directly within that enemy's space. The sphere "appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range" the range is 60 feet. It doesn't specify that that space must be on the ground.
Last I checked creatures don't command the vertical space above them up to 60 feet. Creatures command a space based on their size so for a medium creature, who commands a 5 foot cube of space, 10 feet above their head is perfectly valid as "an unoccupied space" and quite easily within range of the spell.
RAW allows it to be manifested in midair. Period.
Unless there's something somewhere in the rules the forbids "an unoccupied space" as appearing anywhere other than on the ground.
Obviously the DM can rule otherwise.
Obviously the DM can decide whether or not that grants an extra opportunity for damage.
Obviously the DM can rule as to whether or not that counts as a "ram."
Obviously the DM can decide whether or not the player would be able to use a bonus action after that to move the sphere or that the fact that it already collided means that "the sphere stops moving this turn." In which case the only benefit of this strategy is freeing up a bonus action for a single turn.
Obviously the DM can decide whether or not attempting this makes the player a despicable cheater or just trying to work creatively within the rules.
Obviously the DM can decide whether such a tactic is broken as shit or not even worth arguing over in the first dang place.
I'd say your spell fizzles because you're effectively trying to cast it in a space which isn't actually unoccupied.
The spell damages a creature when they end their turn next to it, or when you use your bonus action to ram. In absolutely no other instances will the spell cause damage to a creature.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As far as I can tell that right there is RAW to the letter.
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Precisely where does a creature's occupation of space above their head end then?
5 feet? 10 feet? 60 feet? 100 feet? Or is that space occupied all the way to the heavens?
I'm not trying to cast it in their space I'm just taking advantage of the available combat area. Trying to think in 3 dimensions in a game that allows thinking in three dimensions.
Simply ruling that the damage doesn't happen when the sphere falls would be enough. Then I'd still need to use a bonus action to move the sphere. It'd be effectively the same as if I had cast flaming sphere 10 feet away from the creature on the ground and rolled it into them.
Then I could at least feel creative without getting any mechanical benefit from it if the DM feels dead set on preventing that from being a thing.
That is what has already been stated.
The point I'm trying to make here is that whether you cast at a point in the air or not is pedantic; you are going to get the exact same end result of a flaming sphere in an unoccupied space on the ground.
Does the sphere fall from where you cast it? Yes.
Does a creature directly underneath the sphere get damaged by it falling? No.
Does the sphere stop in the occupied space? No, it would land in the nearest unoccupied space within the casting range.
You can't cheese this spell in any way, so there's no point in not simply designating the proper point of origin.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I said about said as much when I brought it up!
You were the one asserting that it'd be casting within an occupied space. You were adding the additional point of saying the spell would fizzle outright. Neither of which is true.
I'm well aware of the fact that RAW this doesn't make the spell cheesable. Even if it were allowed then it's only a first turn benefit. I've been acknowledging this from the first post I made in this thread. That's the entire point why I mentioned it being dependant on the DM.
I guess I was trying to see if other people thought this was a reasonable thing to bring up or ask about trying to do in a session to which apparently the answer is is a hard flat no.
My apologies if I muddied the waters here on the OP's original question.
No prob, I'm not trying to dig into anyone. I ask you to remember that this is Rules & Game Mechanics, not homebrew/general discussion/tips & tricks/etc. We care about the rules as they actually work in these discussions, so a clear definition of what the spell does by RAW is what we're typically after here.
RAW, the sphere does no damage to anything by falling. The sphere can only damage a creature via the caster using their bonus action to ram, or by a creature ending their turn next to the sphere. That's it.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You can of course get more than two damage instances in a round if you have some means of taking multiple bonus actions during a round, or your target has multiple turns within a single round (Thief's Action allows either one to happen).