So the other night, my group was playing (we are all relatively new, btw) and the parties 3rd Lvl Ranger made an interesting move, but the more I think about it, it doesn't seem legal...that is it seems like too much stuff happened in 6 seconds (1 turn). I raise my eyebrows, but need to turn to you all.
Here's what played out:
Ranger runs 20 feet, and does a summersault, and when he comes up he uses both scimitars (light) to slice at one attacker (Two Weapon Fighting, pg. 195 PH) and I understand this uses a bonus action.
Ranger also has Horde Breaker (Pg. 93 PH) feature. "Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon."
After he strikes first opponent, he turns to second enemy and make another 2 handed attack, then finishes turn by running remaining 10 feet.
So, I'm having an issue with this.....(maybe it's just me). I don't think that the Ranger, even with Horde Breaker, can make the second Two Handed Fighting attack. Why? Because you are only allowed to do this once per turn (as the bonus action). Although I think Ranger can do Horde Breaker, I don't think he can use both scimitars because the bonus action was already used on first enemy.
Ranger character and I debated for a minute, but I stood down because I didn't want game to come to a halt. Personally, I suppose it's plausible and I realize it's a game, but in my head I'm thinking "In 6 seconds you run 20 feet, dive, roll, come up slice 2x, turn, slice 2x again, then run 10 more feet...in 6 seconds?"
What say you? Can Ranger use Horde Breaker to make another two weapon attack despite already using the bonus action?
Horde Breaker allows a single attack. There is no such thing as "a two weapon attack." The bonus action attack granted by Two Weapon Fighting is a separate attack. Likewise, when the ranger hits 5th level and gains the ability to make a second attack with a single Attack action, they're still separate attacks.
5th-level ranger with Horde Breaker, dual-wielding, can have four attacks: two with their normal Attack action, one as a bonus action for Two Weapon Fighting, and one from Horde Breaker against a different target. Your 3rd-level ranger can have three: one with their action, one as a bonus action, and one from Horde Breaker.
Once on each of your turns you can make one additional attack.
The Ranger gets one free attack with this ability per round. This doesn’t count as an action or bonus action, it’s one of the only “free” attacks you can get in 5e.
So Action Attack - main hand attack. Bonus Action Attack - off hand attack. Then Horde Breaker Free Attack. 3 attacks total. It doesn’t say “take another attack action”.
Both SagaTympana and Brewsky are correct. There the off-hand attack from Two-Weapon Attacks are not incorporated in the Action phase itself but in the Bonus Action phase of combat. Really the only point of contention here is whether the Free attack from Horde Breaker can be used with either your main or offhand weapon. I would argue that since your using an Attack Action for both your Action phase and your Bonus action phase it could be used for either. Even then, you would only get 1 attack from Horde Breaker per turn if the conditions were met... making the total number attacks per turn 3: The Action phase - Attack, the Bonus Action phase - Attack, and then Free Horde Breaker attack (using either your main hand or offhand weapon but not both).
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed--sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
The most common actions you can take are described in the Actions in Combat section. Many class features and other abilities provide additional options for your action.
You can forgo moving, taking an action, or doing anything at all on your turn. If you can't decide what to do on your turn, consider taking the Dodge or Ready action, as described in "Actions in Combat."
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take.
You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Other Activity on Your Turn
Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move.
You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
I think the important thing is this: "you can make another attack with the same weapon " This pretty clearly excludes the player from using the weapon in their off-hand as part of the additional attack granted by hordebreaker
I think the important thing is this: "you can make another attack with the same weapon " This pretty clearly excludes the player from using the weapon in their off-hand as part of the additional attack granted by hordebreaker
Only if they haven't attacked with the weapon in their off-hand. Horde Breaker triggers off of any weapon attack, including the one granted by Two Weapon Fighting. If you don't use your Horde Breaker attack on your primary attack (because you only get one Horde Breaker attack per turn), you can use it with your bonus action attack just fine.
Why? It should have been one attack from taking the Attack action, one attack from the Bonus Action use granted from Two Weapon Fighting and one attack from Horde Breaker triggered from either(but, not both) of the earlier attacks.
The somersault was cinematic but, if it was to provide a mechanical bonus, it could cost an action on it's own at the DM's discretion. As a flair thing, the DM could still force a non-action skill check(Acrobatics or Athletics) to see if they flub it. The movement was in line with the rules.
What it comes down to is order-of-operations with the trigger & effect of Horde Breaker.
Horde Breaker
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
When something has a trigger for an additional effect, we know that you can either take that additional effect immediately after the trigger, or you can ignore the trigger.
Horde Breaker's trigger is "when you make a weapon attack", so you can choose to use HB immediately after making a weapon attack, or ignore it. This is one you should use immediately because of the additional requirements in play: same weapon, different creature, within 5 feet of original target, and within range of your weapon. It's useable only in a very strict scenario.
So the first thing to think about is creature positioning. You can only use this ability when you have two creatures within 5 feet of each other. If none of your enemies are standing next to each other, you can't use this feature at all. Both creatures also need to be in range of your weapon when you make the initial triggering attack, so that means you cannot move in-between the triggering attack and making the HB attack--you need to be able to hit both creatures from the same position.
Why should you take it ASAP in practice? It's possible to unqualify yourself if you don't take the HB attack immediately. If you have creatures A&B both within 5 feet of each other & your weapon reach, and your first attack kills creature A, ignoring the trigger now would mean any other attacks you make that turn (via Extra Attack, TWF, etc) cannot possibly qualify for Horde Breaker anymore--there's no longer a different creature from creature B within 5 feet.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm not quite sure on what you're describing for his Horde Breaking attack.
If he is claiming to be doing a two-handed attack (using the versatile weapon ability), then this isn't possible because he is holding a scimitar in each hand.
If he is claiming to get two attacks with his Horde Breaking attack, then this is clearly wrong for the reason that other people have already mentioned.
What it comes down to is order-of-operations with the trigger & effect of Horde Breaker.
As long as both your weapons are identical and you focus on one target, it doesn't really matter which attack is counted as the triggering attack since the effect is generally the same. Also, nothing in the ability indicates that the granted attack must be taken immediately and therefore moving or using a bonus action before taking the granted attack is valid. But yes, in the event that you kill your original target while still having attacks remaining, I would expect the first attack you make against a qualifying additional target to be the Horde Breaker attack.
Both creatures also need to be in range of your weapon when you make the initial triggering attack, so that means you cannot move in-between the triggering attack and making the HB attack--you need to be able to hit both creatures from the same position.
Nothing actually prevents you from moving between these attacks. The only stipulations are that second target must be within 5ft of the original target and be within range of your weapon when you make the triggering attack. Assuming you kill your original target with the triggering attack, or have the Mobile feat (or are willing to trigger an opportunity attack), then there may be instances where circling your target first is advantageous. Maybe your group uses the facing or flanking optional rules and by moving you can get advantage on the attack. Or you can move to block an escape route, or move within range of an ally's ability to aid your attack/protect you from a retaliation ability.
So the other night, my group was playing (we are all relatively new, btw) and the parties 3rd Lvl Ranger made an interesting move, but the more I think about it, it doesn't seem legal...that is it seems like too much stuff happened in 6 seconds (1 turn). I raise my eyebrows, but need to turn to you all.
Here's what played out:
Ranger runs 20 feet, and does a summersault, and when he comes up he uses both scimitars (light) to slice at one attacker (Two Weapon Fighting, pg. 195 PH) and I understand this uses a bonus action.
Ranger also has Horde Breaker (Pg. 93 PH) feature. "Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon."
After he strikes first opponent, he turns to second enemy and make another 2 handed attack, then finishes turn by running remaining 10 feet.
So, I'm having an issue with this.....(maybe it's just me). I don't think that the Ranger, even with Horde Breaker, can make the second Two Handed Fighting attack. Why? Because you are only allowed to do this once per turn (as the bonus action). Although I think Ranger can do Horde Breaker, I don't think he can use both scimitars because the bonus action was already used on first enemy.
Ranger character and I debated for a minute, but I stood down because I didn't want game to come to a halt. Personally, I suppose it's plausible and I realize it's a game, but in my head I'm thinking "In 6 seconds you run 20 feet, dive, roll, come up slice 2x, turn, slice 2x again, then run 10 more feet...in 6 seconds?"
What say you? Can Ranger use Horde Breaker to make another two weapon attack despite already using the bonus action?
Horde Breaker allows a single attack. There is no such thing as "a two weapon attack." The bonus action attack granted by Two Weapon Fighting is a separate attack. Likewise, when the ranger hits 5th level and gains the ability to make a second attack with a single Attack action, they're still separate attacks.
5th-level ranger with Horde Breaker, dual-wielding, can have four attacks: two with their normal Attack action, one as a bonus action for Two Weapon Fighting, and one from Horde Breaker against a different target. Your 3rd-level ranger can have three: one with their action, one as a bonus action, and one from Horde Breaker.
Once on each of your turns you can make one additional attack.
The Ranger gets one free attack with this ability per round. This doesn’t count as an action or bonus action, it’s one of the only “free” attacks you can get in 5e.
So Action Attack - main hand attack. Bonus Action Attack - off hand attack. Then Horde Breaker Free Attack. 3 attacks total. It doesn’t say “take another attack action”.
Both SagaTympana and Brewsky are correct. There the off-hand attack from Two-Weapon Attacks are not incorporated in the Action phase itself but in the Bonus Action phase of combat. Really the only point of contention here is whether the Free attack from Horde Breaker can be used with either your main or offhand weapon. I would argue that since your using an Attack Action for both your Action phase and your Bonus action phase it could be used for either. Even then, you would only get 1 attack from Horde Breaker per turn if the conditions were met... making the total number attacks per turn 3: The Action phase - Attack, the Bonus Action phase - Attack, and then Free Horde Breaker attack (using either your main hand or offhand weapon but not both).
Hope this helps!
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I think the important thing is this: "you can make another attack with the same weapon " This pretty clearly excludes the player from using the weapon in their off-hand as part of the additional attack granted by hordebreaker
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Only if they haven't attacked with the weapon in their off-hand. Horde Breaker triggers off of any weapon attack, including the one granted by Two Weapon Fighting. If you don't use your Horde Breaker attack on your primary attack (because you only get one Horde Breaker attack per turn), you can use it with your bonus action attack just fine.
Simple answer to the OP. You were right.
Why? It should have been one attack from taking the Attack action, one attack from the Bonus Action use granted from Two Weapon Fighting and one attack from Horde Breaker triggered from either(but, not both) of the earlier attacks.
The somersault was cinematic but, if it was to provide a mechanical bonus, it could cost an action on it's own at the DM's discretion. As a flair thing, the DM could still force a non-action skill check(Acrobatics or Athletics) to see if they flub it. The movement was in line with the rules.
What it comes down to is order-of-operations with the trigger & effect of Horde Breaker.
When something has a trigger for an additional effect, we know that you can either take that additional effect immediately after the trigger, or you can ignore the trigger.
Horde Breaker's trigger is "when you make a weapon attack", so you can choose to use HB immediately after making a weapon attack, or ignore it. This is one you should use immediately because of the additional requirements in play: same weapon, different creature, within 5 feet of original target, and within range of your weapon. It's useable only in a very strict scenario.
So the first thing to think about is creature positioning. You can only use this ability when you have two creatures within 5 feet of each other. If none of your enemies are standing next to each other, you can't use this feature at all. Both creatures also need to be in range of your weapon when you make the initial triggering attack, so that means you cannot move in-between the triggering attack and making the HB attack--you need to be able to hit both creatures from the same position.
Why should you take it ASAP in practice? It's possible to unqualify yourself if you don't take the HB attack immediately. If you have creatures A&B both within 5 feet of each other & your weapon reach, and your first attack kills creature A, ignoring the trigger now would mean any other attacks you make that turn (via Extra Attack, TWF, etc) cannot possibly qualify for Horde Breaker anymore--there's no longer a different creature from creature B within 5 feet.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm not quite sure on what you're describing for his Horde Breaking attack.
If he is claiming to be doing a two-handed attack (using the versatile weapon ability), then this isn't possible because he is holding a scimitar in each hand.
If he is claiming to get two attacks with his Horde Breaking attack, then this is clearly wrong for the reason that other people have already mentioned.
As long as both your weapons are identical and you focus on one target, it doesn't really matter which attack is counted as the triggering attack since the effect is generally the same. Also, nothing in the ability indicates that the granted attack must be taken immediately and therefore moving or using a bonus action before taking the granted attack is valid. But yes, in the event that you kill your original target while still having attacks remaining, I would expect the first attack you make against a qualifying additional target to be the Horde Breaker attack.
Nothing actually prevents you from moving between these attacks. The only stipulations are that second target must be within 5ft of the original target and be within range of your weapon when you make the triggering attack. Assuming you kill your original target with the triggering attack, or have the Mobile feat (or are willing to trigger an opportunity attack), then there may be instances where circling your target first is advantageous. Maybe your group uses the facing or flanking optional rules and by moving you can get advantage on the attack. Or you can move to block an escape route, or move within range of an ally's ability to aid your attack/protect you from a retaliation ability.