Mass Suggestion lets you convince the targets to take an action. "You are pigs" is not an action, therefore it's not valid. You could word a Suggestion that the targets need to crawl on all fours, but you can't make them think that they're pigs with the spell.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Mass Suggestion lets you convince the targets to take an action. "You are pigs" is not an action, therefore it's not valid. You could word a Suggestion that the targets need to crawl on all fours, but you can't make them think that they're pigs with the spell.
So "crawl and squeal like pigs" or "act like pigs" would work to accomplish this. But yeah, you can't really take away a person's consciousness with this spell.
Well counter to the objection that they can't be convinced they're pigs. The Mass Suggestion spell is based on Mass Hypnosis in the real world. Often in the Hypnosis shows you see the Mesmerist telling everyone a scenario that they all buy into. I don't see how you couldn't convince a gathering that they are all pigs. And yes Lyxen, I miss the Mass Polymorph. But human fighters groveling like pigs rutting through trash is equally satisfying....
The spell description tells you what it can do. "Convince the targets that they're animals" is not one of those things.
You cannot convince them, but you can certainly suggest that they act like pigs for the duration of the spell It's certainly humiliating but not self-harming and actually not extremely powerful.
On a side note, we had an incredible fun in a celtic LARP a few (well, more than a few, actually) years back, there was a large intrigue around a boar spirit, and at some point in time the members of my warbands and I were convinced to act as wild piglets in bushes, and try avoid being caught. It was quite scary but a lot of fun to grunt through the bushes trying not to be caught by huge boar spirit.
It also has to be "worded in such a manner as to make the course of action seem reasonable" would love to hear what they could say to the folks for them to think acting like a pig is a reasonable course of action.
Overall it's not a thing most people would consider reasonable.
"Go sit and take a 8 hour rest" is more reasonable.
The spell description tells you what it can do. "Convince the targets that they're animals" is not one of those things.
You cannot convince them, but you can certainly suggest that they act like pigs for the duration of the spell It's certainly humiliating but not self-harming and actually not extremely powerful.
On a side note, we had an incredible fun in a celtic LARP a few (well, more than a few, actually) years back, there was a large intrigue around a boar spirit, and at some point in time the members of my warbands and I were convinced to act as wild piglets in bushes, and try avoid being caught. It was quite scary but a lot of fun to grunt through the bushes trying not to be caught by huge boar spirit.
It also has to be "worded in such a manner as to make the course of action seem reasonable" would love to hear what they could say to the folks for them to think acting like a pig is a reasonable course of action.
No. This has been discussed many times and the "reasonable" is just a WORDING, it must SEEM reasonable, not BE reasonable, otherwise the knight would never give away his warhorse as in the example. Again, this is a spell, not a simple charisma check, and it has an effect akin to charm.
The reasonableness is to avoid self harm, as clearly indicated in the next sentence in the spell description.
"Go sit and take a 8 hour rest" is more reasonable.
By your take, this is stupid for anyone for example in a combat situation, so it would not be reasonable, and the spell is therefore useless. Fortunately, this is not the right interpretation of the spell.
It's in the spell and uses natural language so I'm pretty certain you are mistaken.
The war horse could make sense if the person believes in charity. "You are such a wonderfully successful Knight and you should give your horse to the needy to show your public how you love them." Simple works and is reasonable.
Also yeah if you are using in battle basically nothing makes sense unless it's "You are over classes! You should retreat!"
It's not hard to make it work if you are creative.
Yeah, "reasonable" means that you can't suggest that they stab themselves in the intestines or jump into a bonfire, or do anything else that would cause immediate harm to them.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Would it be a viable use of the Mass Suggestion spell to simply look at the targets and say, "You are all pigs! Crawl, squeel! You are all pigs!"
For me, illusion spells are exactly as powerful as your DM wants them to be. Looking at this as a DM, I would attempt to accomplish each of the following when I cast this spell on the characters:
I would attempt to make a suggestion in line with what the caster would want to accomplish
I would attempt to make a suggestion that served its purpose while maximizing player agency
I would attempt to make a suggestion that was at least a little open-ended to allow player creativity to work within its structure
Nah doesn't work for me and honestly it's up to the DM as to what's reasonable. Your definitely underestimating the need for reasonable. You can do you of course as this is a DM fiat area in what works.
Thankfully my players are creative and can think quickly on their feet.
Nah doesn't work for me and honestly it's up to the DM as to what's reasonable. Your definitely underestimating the need for reasonable. You can do you of course as this is a DM fiat area in what works.
Have a look around the forums for previous discussions on suggestions, or do an internet search, you will generally find the same position as mine, and as expressed by other posters here.
Thankfully my players are creative and can think quickly on their feet.
I'm happy for you, but they are not the only ones...
Yeah most of what I have found supports the reasonable part. So yeah I think the pig thing is out for most people..... Overall it's a 2nd level spell and has its limits.
I would hard pass and have them come up with something a bit more reasonable as it's not hard
Nah doesn't work for me and honestly it's up to the DM as to what's reasonable. Your definitely underestimating the need for reasonable. You can do you of course as this is a DM fiat area in what works.
Have a look around the forums for previous discussions on suggestions, or do an internet search, you will generally find the same position as mine, and as expressed by other posters here.
Thankfully my players are creative and can think quickly on their feet.
I'm happy for you, but they are not the only ones...
Actually Lyxen, for an NPC to say to a group "You look tired, you should go back home and get some sleep" is a very powerful tool, and very much indeed within the constructs of the spell. Remember, this is a 6th level spell, so therefore very powerful. And the spell is explicit: If the target takes damage, the spell ends. So by simply walking away from a fight the target takes no damage, therefore completely reasonable as it is not harmful.
Actually Lyxen, for an NPC to say to a group "You look tired, you should go back home and get some sleep" is a very powerful tool, and very much indeed within the constructs of the spell. Remember, this is a 6th level spell, so therefore very powerful. And the spell is explicit: If the target takes damage, the spell ends. So by simply walking away from a fight the target takes no damage, therefore completely reasonable as it is not harmful.
Actually, I said exactly the same thing, I was reasoning ab absurdo: "By your take, this is stupid for anyone for example in a combat situation, so it would not be reasonable, and the spell is therefore useless. Fortunately, this is not the right interpretation of the spell." => meaning that, in my take, it would absolutely work, assuming the right wording and yours is indeed much better.
I actually would totally support that use of the spell because I think it's powerful (although the level is due to the "mass", the single spell with the same effect on only one target is level 2 only) and a magical effect. If you could only obtain "reasonable" effects in the sense that someone would do it without magical coercion, then why would you need a spell ?
Ah, cool. We are on the same page. Sorry, I got lost in your original comment. And indeed, I agree completely with the concept of magical coercion. If a char / NPC with a +13 to Persuasion can get the same result, what indeed the point of the spell.
Actually Lyxen, for an NPC to say to a group "You look tired, you should go back home and get some sleep" is a very powerful tool, and very much indeed within the constructs of the spell. Remember, this is a 6th level spell, so therefore very powerful. And the spell is explicit: If the target takes damage, the spell ends. So by simply walking away from a fight the target takes no damage, therefore completely reasonable as it is not harmful.
Actually, I said exactly the same thing, I was reasoning ab absurdo: "By your take, this is stupid for anyone for example in a combat situation, so it would not be reasonable, and the spell is therefore useless. Fortunately, this is not the right interpretation of the spell." => meaning that, in my take, it would absolutely work, assuming the right wording and yours is indeed much better.
I actually would totally support that use of the spell because I think it's powerful (although the level is due to the "mass", the single spell with the same effect on only one target is level 2 only) and a magical effect. If you could only obtain "reasonable" effects in the sense that someone would do it without magical coercion, then why would you need a spell ?
Ah, cool. We are on the same page. Sorry, I got lost in your original comment. And indeed, I agree completely with the concept of magical coercion. If a char / NPC with a +13 to Persuasion can get the same result, what indeed the point of the spell.
No worries, I lose myself sometimes... :)
And yes, this is one of the major worry with that spell, it can be made uber powerful with people claiming that they can make the suggestion to be their slave for 8 hours, but it can also be completely trivialised if people insist that the suggestion is actually reasonable.
I think one of the most powerful uses of the spell is a debuff. As a DM, and as a 13th level Warlock player in another game, Mass Suggestion can utterly ruin an encounter before it even starts. If half the targets simply walk away before the encounter begins...oh wow.
To be honest, I would not accept the "you're a pig" either, but a "You should act like a pig, as it will make you seem harmless" would be quite reasonable to me considering that this is a spell.
This is the crux of the 'reasonable' clause to me, although this would be the bare minimum to make it work.
If you want to use it to create a funny/humiliating scene, you need to put in at least a little bit of work to include some logic behind your suggestion, even if it is thin logic.
If you want to point at someone and shout for them to roll in the mud and squeal, use Command. There are many different flavors of mind control in the enchantment school, and Suggestion is supposed to one of the more subtle types.
As a 6th level spell, I would suggest (see what I did there?) that mass suggestion should have an effect at least as influential as 1st level command while acknowledging the wording of the influence of the spells is not exactly the same.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
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Would it be a viable use of the Mass Suggestion spell to simply look at the targets and say, "You are all pigs! Crawl, squeel! You are all pigs!"
Hmm. Probably. Enchantment and illusion spells are often pretty vague on what works and it is up to DM to decide.
Would that make them all Prone targets?
Mass Suggestion lets you convince the targets to take an action. "You are pigs" is not an action, therefore it's not valid. You could word a Suggestion that the targets need to crawl on all fours, but you can't make them think that they're pigs with the spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So "crawl and squeal like pigs" or "act like pigs" would work to accomplish this. But yeah, you can't really take away a person's consciousness with this spell.
If you tell them to crawl, yes. You can also just tell them all to lie down or take a nap for this.
Well counter to the objection that they can't be convinced they're pigs. The Mass Suggestion spell is based on Mass Hypnosis in the real world. Often in the Hypnosis shows you see the Mesmerist telling everyone a scenario that they all buy into. I don't see how you couldn't convince a gathering that they are all pigs. And yes Lyxen, I miss the Mass Polymorph. But human fighters groveling like pigs rutting through trash is equally satisfying....
The spell description tells you what it can do. "Convince the targets that they're animals" is not one of those things.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It also has to be "worded in such a manner as to make the course of action seem reasonable" would love to hear what they could say to the folks for them to think acting like a pig is a reasonable course of action.
Overall it's not a thing most people would consider reasonable.
"Go sit and take a 8 hour rest" is more reasonable.
It's in the spell and uses natural language so I'm pretty certain you are mistaken.
The war horse could make sense if the person believes in charity. "You are such a wonderfully successful Knight and you should give your horse to the needy to show your public how you love them." Simple works and is reasonable.
Also yeah if you are using in battle basically nothing makes sense unless it's "You are over classes! You should retreat!"
It's not hard to make it work if you are creative.
Yeah, "reasonable" means that you can't suggest that they stab themselves in the intestines or jump into a bonfire, or do anything else that would cause immediate harm to them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
For me, illusion spells are exactly as powerful as your DM wants them to be. Looking at this as a DM, I would attempt to accomplish each of the following when I cast this spell on the characters:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Nah doesn't work for me and honestly it's up to the DM as to what's reasonable. Your definitely underestimating the need for reasonable. You can do you of course as this is a DM fiat area in what works.
Thankfully my players are creative and can think quickly on their feet.
Yeah most of what I have found supports the reasonable part. So yeah I think the pig thing is out for most people..... Overall it's a 2nd level spell and has its limits.
I would hard pass and have them come up with something a bit more reasonable as it's not hard
Overall
Actually Lyxen, for an NPC to say to a group "You look tired, you should go back home and get some sleep" is a very powerful tool, and very much indeed within the constructs of the spell. Remember, this is a 6th level spell, so therefore very powerful. And the spell is explicit: If the target takes damage, the spell ends. So by simply walking away from a fight the target takes no damage, therefore completely reasonable as it is not harmful.
Yeah it's MUCH more reasonable to roll in the mud for 8 hours....🙄
It doesn't take a lot of work to make reasonable.
"you're a pig" is just not reasonable.
"You're tired and need to go sleep" is much better and more reasonable.
I would accept the latter and not the former.
Ah, cool. We are on the same page. Sorry, I got lost in your original comment. And indeed, I agree completely with the concept of magical coercion. If a char / NPC with a +13 to Persuasion can get the same result, what indeed the point of the spell.
I think one of the most powerful uses of the spell is a debuff. As a DM, and as a 13th level Warlock player in another game, Mass Suggestion can utterly ruin an encounter before it even starts. If half the targets simply walk away before the encounter begins...oh wow.
This is the crux of the 'reasonable' clause to me, although this would be the bare minimum to make it work.
If you want to use it to create a funny/humiliating scene, you need to put in at least a little bit of work to include some logic behind your suggestion, even if it is thin logic.
If you want to point at someone and shout for them to roll in the mud and squeal, use Command. There are many different flavors of mind control in the enchantment school, and Suggestion is supposed to one of the more subtle types.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
As a 6th level spell, I would suggest (see what I did there?) that mass suggestion should have an effect at least as influential as 1st level command while acknowledging the wording of the influence of the spells is not exactly the same.
"Not all those who wander are lost"