I was looking over the two now that the fighting initiate feat is working and it came to mind that these seem to work with certain weapons? As I understand it, Dueling works with a javelin while you aren't wielding any other weapons (I.E Shield in the off-hand), and with Thrown weapon fighting states that when you hit with a ranged attack with a thrown weapon it deals +2 damage. So a level one fighter with both would be doing 1d6+7 (+3 from 16 strength, +2 from dueling, and +2 from thrown weapon fighting) damage?
Yup, kind of a heavy feat investment for a level 1 vhuman fighter, since Fighting Initiate doesn’t provide a +1 stat, but it works. Also works well with Archery, to make darts pretty viable.
Doing some math here... Javelin and shield with dueling and thrown weapon fighting vs. daggers with two weapon fighting and thrown weapon fighting vs darts with archery and the sharpshooter feat.
Javelin: +5 to hit, 1d6+7 (+3 from strength, +2 each from dueling and thrown weapon fighting) = 8-13 (10.5 average) DPR.
Daggers: +5 to hit, 1d4+5 (+3 from strength it dex, +2 from thrown weapon fighting) x2 = 2d4+10 = 12-18 (15 average) DPR.
Darts: +2 to hit, 1d4+13 (+3 from dex, +10 from sharpshooter) + 1d4+10 = 2d4+23 = 25-31(28 average) DPR.
So javelin has the most defense with the shield, the daggers have better average damage but have less defense, and the darts have the highest DPR by far but the lowest chance to hit. If I were using darts I might as well go for crossbow expert with hand crossbows at that point.
Sharpshooter is pointless in tiers 1 and 2 due to low hit %, but I’ll admit the dart looks underwhelming until it becomes an option. Yes, Xbow expert is encouraged as well, the only point of them is to be a melee range sharpshooter that can use a shield (which even hand xbow can’t really do). Dart and shield looks worse than javelin in T1, but in T3 and 4, will far exceed it due to Sharpshooter. Because Archery style makes Sharpshooter more reliable (thus more DPR) than GWM, a Strength-based dart+shield sharpshooter basically does more damage, more accurately, with a higher AC, with more flexible range, than a conventional GWM melee strength build would do.
but darts aren’t melee weapons, no TWF offhand throws allowed. For that, you’d want crossbow expert and a hand crossbow in your offhand I think, but you’d need to be Dex based.
Darts (no sharpshooter) +11 to hit (+6 prof, +5 strength) 1d4+7 (+5 strength, +2 thrown-weapon fighting) x4 = 4d4+28= 32-44 (38 average) DPR
Looking at the bonus to hit vs the damage possible, I feel like they each have a place to shine here. Darts will be able to take down easier to hit targets much faster, but their damage on higher ac targets will be lower overall than the javelin. Darts have versatility and higher dpr on applicable targets but fall behind when sharpshooter isn't useful. And you lose opportunity attacks if you don't switch to a melee weapon between turns.
Looking at the bonus to hit vs the damage possible, I feel like they each have a place to shine here. Darts will be able to take down easier to hit targets much faster, but their damage on higher ac targets will be lower overall than the javelin. Darts have versatility and higher dpr on applicable targets but fall behind when sharpshooter isn't useful. And you lose opportunity attacks if you don't switch to a melee weapon between turns.
Factoring in hit chance, you can see that Sharpshooter has an edge vs low AC targets, but maybe not as much as you'd think. I think it begins to pull ahead more when you factor in cover and advantage though.
A Mixed dagger/dart style might have some advantages... by giving up ONE dart throw, you can add TWO dagger (or javelin, with a feat) throws. -1d4+17 (20) damage, but +2 x 1d4+7 (20) damage that is more accurate and granular. I’d rather have the shield, but could be fun.
I don’t understand why on math above darts didn’t get their +2 archery style to hit. That’s the DPR bump sharpshooter has over GWM , or plain darts over javelins
Yay people good at math! and yes, I was trying to keep the feats on equal footing and the ASI's at the same investment. That being said, at a higher level Sharpshooter would still come up while Javelin would either have another ASI or feat to try and help compensate.
Wondering now which subclasses would make the most use out of the javelin version and dart version respectively? An echo knight fighter would reliably have the ability to toss javelins from their echos position, while a battle master would make for an overall more consistent melee/ranged fighter. Heck even Champion getting another fighting style at 10 could be nice.
Wondering now which subclasses would make the most use out of the javelin version and dart version respectively? An echo knight fighter would reliably have the ability to toss javelins from their echos position, while a battle master would make for an overall more consistent melee/ranged fighter. Heck even Champion getting another fighting style at 10 could be nice.
I always like battle master sharpshooter for precision attack maneuver.
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I was looking over the two now that the fighting initiate feat is working and it came to mind that these seem to work with certain weapons? As I understand it, Dueling works with a javelin while you aren't wielding any other weapons (I.E Shield in the off-hand), and with Thrown weapon fighting states that when you hit with a ranged attack with a thrown weapon it deals +2 damage. So a level one fighter with both would be doing 1d6+7 (+3 from 16 strength, +2 from dueling, and +2 from thrown weapon fighting) damage?
Is this bonkers or am I losing it?
Yup, kind of a heavy feat investment for a level 1 vhuman fighter, since Fighting Initiate doesn’t provide a +1 stat, but it works. Also works well with Archery, to make darts pretty viable.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Doing some math here... Javelin and shield with dueling and thrown weapon fighting vs. daggers with two weapon fighting and thrown weapon fighting vs darts with archery and the sharpshooter feat.
Javelin: +5 to hit, 1d6+7 (+3 from strength, +2 each from dueling and thrown weapon fighting) = 8-13 (10.5 average) DPR.
Daggers: +5 to hit, 1d4+5 (+3 from strength it dex, +2 from thrown weapon fighting) x2 = 2d4+10 = 12-18 (15 average) DPR.
Darts: +2 to hit, 1d4+13 (+3 from dex, +10 from sharpshooter) + 1d4+10 = 2d4+23 = 25-31(28 average) DPR.
So javelin has the most defense with the shield, the daggers have better average damage but have less defense, and the darts have the highest DPR by far but the lowest chance to hit. If I were using darts I might as well go for crossbow expert with hand crossbows at that point.
Sharpshooter is pointless in tiers 1 and 2 due to low hit %, but I’ll admit the dart looks underwhelming until it becomes an option. Yes, Xbow expert is encouraged as well, the only point of them is to be a melee range sharpshooter that can use a shield (which even hand xbow can’t really do). Dart and shield looks worse than javelin in T1, but in T3 and 4, will far exceed it due to Sharpshooter. Because Archery style makes Sharpshooter more reliable (thus more DPR) than GWM, a Strength-based dart+shield sharpshooter basically does more damage, more accurately, with a higher AC, with more flexible range, than a conventional GWM melee strength build would do.
but darts aren’t melee weapons, no TWF offhand throws allowed. For that, you’d want crossbow expert and a hand crossbow in your offhand I think, but you’d need to be Dex based.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
With equal stats for ease, a javelin oriented vs a dart oriented fighter with four attacks would look like;
Javelin: +11 to hit (+6 prof, +5 strength) 1d6+9 (+5 strength, +2 dueling, +2 thrown-weapon fighting) x4 = 4d6+36 = 42-60 (51 average) DPR
Darts: +6 to hit (+6 prof, +5 strength, -5 sharpshooter) 1d4+17 (+5 strength, +2 thrown-weapon fighting, +10 sharpshooter) x4 = 4d4+68 = 72-82 (77 average) DPR
Darts (no sharpshooter) +11 to hit (+6 prof, +5 strength) 1d4+7 (+5 strength, +2 thrown-weapon fighting) x4 = 4d4+28= 32-44 (38 average) DPR
Looking at the bonus to hit vs the damage possible, I feel like they each have a place to shine here. Darts will be able to take down easier to hit targets much faster, but their damage on higher ac targets will be lower overall than the javelin. Darts have versatility and higher dpr on applicable targets but fall behind when sharpshooter isn't useful. And you lose opportunity attacks if you don't switch to a melee weapon between turns.
*fixed
Factoring in hit chance, you can see that Sharpshooter has an edge vs low AC targets, but maybe not as much as you'd think. I think it begins to pull ahead more when you factor in cover and advantage though.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
A Mixed dagger/dart style might have some advantages... by giving up ONE dart throw, you can add TWO dagger (or javelin, with a feat) throws. -1d4+17 (20) damage, but +2 x 1d4+7 (20) damage that is more accurate and granular. I’d rather have the shield, but could be fun.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I don’t understand why on math above darts didn’t get their +2 archery style to hit. That’s the DPR bump sharpshooter has over GWM , or plain darts over javelins
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I believe each build got one feat. Javelin got another fighting style, darts got Sharpshooter
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yay people good at math! and yes, I was trying to keep the feats on equal footing and the ASI's at the same investment. That being said, at a higher level Sharpshooter would still come up while Javelin would either have another ASI or feat to try and help compensate.
Wondering now which subclasses would make the most use out of the javelin version and dart version respectively? An echo knight fighter would reliably have the ability to toss javelins from their echos position, while a battle master would make for an overall more consistent melee/ranged fighter. Heck even Champion getting another fighting style at 10 could be nice.
I always like battle master sharpshooter for precision attack maneuver.