My biggest complaint with this whole mess is that it was not necessary. I never felt that Drow were inherently evil. I felt they were evil because that's the kind of people their society turned out. No gods and goddesses were really needed to create good drow, no explanation other than they were ruled by people who ensured the system that kept them in ruling positions kept the people from uniting and standing up.
It could have been more and more drow were inspired by Drizzt's continued defiance and decided that enough was enough. That's a lot more buyable than these sekret enclaves where all the good drow went to hang out are out there and people only /know/ about the evil ones.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Agreed, it is like saying all Germans were evil under Nazi Germany. They did evil things since that is what their society trained them as normal. Certainly, if you asked any Drow if they were evil, they would say of course not - to them their acts are completely rational and just within the rules of their society. Outside of that society, you would develop different morals and even some within that society would develop different morals but need to keep them secret, lest that society punish them.
This is actually why I am a big fan of Eilistraee. She is trying to subvert the existing drow society that is under the thumb (leg) of Lolth on an individual basis through her followers. Kind of a Raoul Wallenberg for drow.
My biggest complaint with this whole mess is that it was not necessary. ....
That's were I landed. Every society is going to have its non conformers like Drizzt so I don't think a whole lot is needed to explain a few good drow floating around. I would have preferred a more neutral group like the Shadow Elves from Basic or the Valley Elves from Greyhawk, still, we have more than enough to model all of those guys too if you were so inclined.
The way I see it, WotC /tries/ to do lore, and they are not very good at it. I think they are pretty solid with systems and mechanics, but they are utter crap when it comes to lore and stories. Just give me the crunch, and let me figure out the fluff, thank you very much.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I think they are trying to avoid forcing a god down people's throats. I don't think you will see Eilistraee front and center.
I also highly doubt that they course correct this. The fact is, some players /want/ to see racism in the drow where it's never existed and they push that narrative. It's those people who don't know much about things that drive this kind of stuff. When it comes down to getting new people on board and appeasing those who have been here the whole time...well they assume that the old timers will stick around.
I'd be a lot more OK with these changes if they weren't trying to shoe-horn them all into FR. Just use a new default world and stop ruining the one that I've been playing in for 30 years.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
So, agnostic on this front, but I am curious. If this current Drow arc to keep the Drow in 5e circulation, maybe related to a future game book (though maybe they're just putting the books out to capitalize on the apparent success of AAW's Underdark game books), what sort of story would you all have had Salvatore and WotC tell about Drizzt and the Drow instead of what it looks like we're getting?
I'm not asking that to antagonize anyone, but I figure maybe this space can be used for what "could have should have" been as opposed to the departure or retconning that some posters are seeing, perhaps rightly, as needless.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
A welcome addition for me. Having played a drow once before, my DM at the time really leaned into the lore, which I found less than savory. This change allows my character’s goodness to not be the exceptional aspect of the character. It also allows for a positive experience among my PC’s own people. It harms nothing to have this added and it allows players to avoid undesirable backgrounds while remaining within the boundaries of canon.
The issue is that this is just one more step towards making everything in D&D plain vanilla so that they don't possibly offend anyone. There are no racial stats alternations, no one is evil or good, and the latest, there are no published guidelines for height and weight. They have taken all differentiation out and thus all flavor. I loved that the drow were innately distrusted and had to win the populace over by good deeds to earn their reputation. This is the classic Western genre of the outsider rejected by a society that needs them. That is the premise behind most of the Drizz't novels. Those were highly successful because that premise of prejudice creates conflict and stories are built around conflict.
D&D is turning into the episode of Star Trek Next Gen where the entire plot is that they are all concerned about Data's low self-esteem...
A welcome addition for me. Having played a drow once before, my DM at the time really leaned into the lore, which I found less than savory. This change allows my character’s goodness to not be the exceptional aspect of the character. It also allows for a positive experience among my PC’s own people. It harms nothing to have this added and it allows players to avoid undesirable backgrounds while remaining within the boundaries of canon.
Except those of us who EMBRACED the fun of dealing with the strife. To just play a "good drow" and complain about the negative consequences is a naked power grab.
And, who even cares about the canon, because now it's destroyed.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
A welcome addition for me. Having played a drow once before, my DM at the time really leaned into the lore, which I found less than savory. This change allows my character’s goodness to not be the exceptional aspect of the character. It also allows for a positive experience among my PC’s own people. It harms nothing to have this added and it allows players to avoid undesirable backgrounds while remaining within the boundaries of canon.
Except those of us who EMBRACED the fun of dealing with the strife. To just play a "good drow" and complain about the negative consequences is a naked power grab.
And, who even cares about the canon, because now it's destroyed.
Hello Crzyhawk,
I fail to see how this addition reduces your ability to enjoy the already established drow lore, how my desire to play a drow unfettered by culturally engrained evil and oppression is a power grab, or how canon is destroyed. To me, this feels like catastrophizing. Things change, even what we understand about the world we live in (or in this case, the world we play in). Retcons are made to keep content relevant or to make changes that are seen as improvements. Tolkien made several revisions to his own lore as he went over the years, why can’t there be something new added here? Especially when there is a desire for it from at least some drow players. You will be under no obligation to play one of these new drow if you are not inclined to do so.
A welcome addition for me. Having played a drow once before, my DM at the time really leaned into the lore, which I found less than savory. This change allows my character’s goodness to not be the exceptional aspect of the character. It also allows for a positive experience among my PC’s own people. It harms nothing to have this added and it allows players to avoid undesirable backgrounds while remaining within the boundaries of canon.
I agree with the core of what you're saying (no racism), but I think WotC has done it in a counterproductive way that created even more insular drow.
Hello Yamana_Eajii,
I don’t know if I really agree that it is counterproductive. The apparent isolationist approach isn’t really demonstrative of a progressive society, but it does provide a reasonable and realistic reason why other drow were unheard of until recently and it provides an easy hook for players who choose to be adventurers. Someone from the aevendrow, for example, might have decided that they want to see the world, rather than the traditional approach of being a drow fleeing oppression and obscene violence. I also noted from the article that these are just two revealed factions, but it implied more. In time, perhaps there will be other factions that have very different reasons for not being known to outsiders. Salvatore has been writing Drizzt for a long time and with great success. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will continue to write enjoyable stories that fans will accept and love.
A welcome addition for me. Having played a drow once before, my DM at the time really leaned into the lore, which I found less than savory. This change allows my character’s goodness to not be the exceptional aspect of the character. It also allows for a positive experience among my PC’s own people. It harms nothing to have this added and it allows players to avoid undesirable backgrounds while remaining within the boundaries of canon.
Agreed. Pretty much sums up my own feelings about the Aevendrow and the Lorendrow.
I meant counterproductive as there was already something there, plus the fact that these new drow have strange skin (spiderweb patterns), and a different species name (udadrow), so they're kinda like a sub-sub-species of drow, who have become even more extreme than they were before because Eilistrae is being overlooked now. We've gone from "[Insert large group here; eg. major religion or country] is a terrorist society that commits atrocities" to "[Insert smaller group here; such as a minor religion or nation] is a terrorist society that commits atrocities and are just generally even worse than we thought the original was", which implies evil is still there. If I had my way, I'd have gone "[Insert large group here] is ruled by misguided people, and many of the populous disagree with them and leave if they can", which is not racist at all, it just shows a corrupt government which happens regularly everywhere.
In other words, making a big bad into a little worserer bad is no improvement if a single different group is still implicated.
Edit: Ooh shoot. Now I sound racist as I mentioned China as an example (no I don't feel racist towards the Chinese, I was using the American Stereotype of them) but didn't remove it. I am SO SORRY to anyone I offended with this!
I may have to read the article again, because I have a different understanding of what the udadrow are. This is definitely possible, as my signature states, but my impression was that the traditional drow are the udadrow, not a splinter faction, and the those women who carry the mark of Lolth are simply those who are exceptionally devout among the drow of the underdark. If I read it correctly, it is a religious marking, which is subject to removal should anyone divorce themselves from Lolth or fall out of favor.
The issue is that this is just one more step towards making everything in D&D plain vanilla so that they don't possibly offend anyone. There are no racial stats alternations, no one is evil or good, and the latest, there are no published guidelines for height and weight. They have taken all differentiation out and thus all flavor. I loved that the drow were innately distrusted and had to win the populace over by good deeds to earn their reputation. This is the classic Western genre of the outsider rejected by a society that needs them. That is the premise behind most of the Drizz't novels. Those were highly successful because that premise of prejudice creates conflict and stories are built around conflict.
D&D is turning into the episode of Star Trek Next Gen where the entire plot is that they are all concerned about Data's low self-esteem...
I honestly wish I never gave my thoughts on this discussion, because every time it's bumped by some person still whining the exact same grievances expressed on the very first page, I get an email notification about it. Holy hell, some of the more dramatic takes on this are ridiculous. I don't understand why some folks put so much work into getting into a lather in a game of make-believe.
Wizards of the Coast are steering their community towards becoming more inclusive and representational, making it a welcome place for everyone to join the game. If people can't understand why having a whole race of 'dark skinned' elves in a matriarchal society are always 'evil' is a huge embarrassing problem from a less thoughtful era, then I really don't know what to tell them, other than "if you don't like changes, you are allowed to just say 'okay', and move on."
I honestly wish I never gave my thoughts on this discussion, because every time it's bumped by some person still whining the exact same grievances expressed on the very first page, I get an email notification about it. Holy hell, some of the more dramatic takes on this are ridiculous. I don't understand why some folks put so much work into getting into a lather in a game of make-believe.
Wizards of the Coast are steering their community towards becoming more inclusive and representational, making it a welcome place for everyone to join the game. If people can't understand why having a whole race of 'dark skinned' elves in a matriarchal society are always 'evil' is a huge embarrassing problem from a less thoughtful era, then I really don't know what to tell them, other than "if you don't like changes, you are allowed to just say 'okay', and move on."
You can unsubscribe from the thread if you don't want to keep getting notification. It's under Tools on top of the page.
As people already sait in the thread, if people choose to see dark skinned elves as an allegory for real life races, it's their right but it's dumb. Following the same logic, the demon lord Graz'zt should be problematic: his skin is obsidian black and in his case, he's just pure evil.
As stated many times here, the "evilness" of the Drow have nothing to do with the color of their skin or their matriarchy. It's to worship of a evil goddes being at the core of their society that leads to evil. When compasion and love are seen as weaknesses and ambition and betrayal are seen as disireable, it leads to a society where "evil" is the norme. Doesn't not mean they're evil at heart.
Also, the Drow are a matriarchy because of their worship of Lloth. So it would makes sense that the new "non-evil Drow" socities who do not worship her might not be matriarchies. If anyone knows, please let me know.
I may have to read the article again, because I have a different understanding of what the udadrow are. This is definitely possible, as my signature states, but my impression was that the traditional drow are the udadrow, not a splinter faction, and the those women who carry the mark of Lolth are simply those who are exceptionally devout among the drow of the underdark. If I read it correctly, it is a religious marking, which is subject to removal should anyone divorce themselves from Lolth or fall out of favor.
As far as I remember the article, yes the Udadrow are the new name of what we simply call Drow. The splinter faction or not part is less clear, from my understanding the way they said it makes it sound like the Udadrow aren't the biggest group of "Drow". So not a splinter faction but not 80% of Drow either.
I understand the Lolth mark thing in about the same way as you - though I don't remember if only women can get the mark - and in same sense it's fine and can make sense. The issue I and some people have with it is that I has never been needed so far. They've always seemed to be able to know if one had Lolth's favor without any marking. The lack of markings also allows Drows to deceive and pretend to have her blessing. Not the worst change but also an easy excuse to say drow with markings = evil drow thus it's fine to kill.
God help the ones who lack the means to remove those markings then.
Just because its assumed they lose them if they lose favor what if they don't?!
I've been reading responses to this and find them very interesting and one day I might pick up whatever supplement actually discusses this, but for now I'll keep an eye on this thread as I find it quite good for potential ideas!
God help the ones who lack the means to remove those markings then.
Just because its assumed they lose them if they lose favor what if they don't?!
I've been reading responses to this and find them very interesting and one day I might pick up whatever supplement actually discusses this, but for now I'll keep an eye on this thread as I find it quite good for potential ideas!
I agree with you. It’s been a good discussion.
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My biggest complaint with this whole mess is that it was not necessary. I never felt that Drow were inherently evil. I felt they were evil because that's the kind of people their society turned out. No gods and goddesses were really needed to create good drow, no explanation other than they were ruled by people who ensured the system that kept them in ruling positions kept the people from uniting and standing up.
It could have been more and more drow were inspired by Drizzt's continued defiance and decided that enough was enough. That's a lot more buyable than these sekret enclaves where all the good drow went to hang out are out there and people only /know/ about the evil ones.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Agreed, it is like saying all Germans were evil under Nazi Germany. They did evil things since that is what their society trained them as normal. Certainly, if you asked any Drow if they were evil, they would say of course not - to them their acts are completely rational and just within the rules of their society. Outside of that society, you would develop different morals and even some within that society would develop different morals but need to keep them secret, lest that society punish them.
This is actually why I am a big fan of Eilistraee. She is trying to subvert the existing drow society that is under the thumb (leg) of Lolth on an individual basis through her followers. Kind of a Raoul Wallenberg for drow.
That's were I landed. Every society is going to have its non conformers like Drizzt so I don't think a whole lot is needed to explain a few good drow floating around. I would have preferred a more neutral group like the Shadow Elves from Basic or the Valley Elves from Greyhawk, still, we have more than enough to model all of those guys too if you were so inclined.
The way I see it, WotC /tries/ to do lore, and they are not very good at it. I think they are pretty solid with systems and mechanics, but they are utter crap when it comes to lore and stories. Just give me the crunch, and let me figure out the fluff, thank you very much.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Seems to be happening a lot more of late where existing franchises fall foul of creatives who really aren't creative.
Have to wait and see where they go from here.
It wouldn't be the first time someone course corrected a franchise when it becomes clear they're going seriously wrong.
I'd like something like the shadow elves as an idea for these alternate dark elves too.
Do they really have to be called Drow when ultimately they're not?
Perhaps Eilistraee might be behind these enclaves of former Drow seeking another path out from under Lloth's thumb?
I think they are trying to avoid forcing a god down people's throats. I don't think you will see Eilistraee front and center.
I also highly doubt that they course correct this. The fact is, some players /want/ to see racism in the drow where it's never existed and they push that narrative. It's those people who don't know much about things that drive this kind of stuff. When it comes down to getting new people on board and appeasing those who have been here the whole time...well they assume that the old timers will stick around.
I'd be a lot more OK with these changes if they weren't trying to shoe-horn them all into FR. Just use a new default world and stop ruining the one that I've been playing in for 30 years.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
So, agnostic on this front, but I am curious. If this current Drow arc to keep the Drow in 5e circulation, maybe related to a future game book (though maybe they're just putting the books out to capitalize on the apparent success of AAW's Underdark game books), what sort of story would you all have had Salvatore and WotC tell about Drizzt and the Drow instead of what it looks like we're getting?
I'm not asking that to antagonize anyone, but I figure maybe this space can be used for what "could have should have" been as opposed to the departure or retconning that some posters are seeing, perhaps rightly, as needless.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
A welcome addition for me. Having played a drow once before, my DM at the time really leaned into the lore, which I found less than savory. This change allows my character’s goodness to not be the exceptional aspect of the character. It also allows for a positive experience among my PC’s own people. It harms nothing to have this added and it allows players to avoid undesirable backgrounds while remaining within the boundaries of canon.
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The issue is that this is just one more step towards making everything in D&D plain vanilla so that they don't possibly offend anyone. There are no racial stats alternations, no one is evil or good, and the latest, there are no published guidelines for height and weight. They have taken all differentiation out and thus all flavor. I loved that the drow were innately distrusted and had to win the populace over by good deeds to earn their reputation. This is the classic Western genre of the outsider rejected by a society that needs them. That is the premise behind most of the Drizz't novels. Those were highly successful because that premise of prejudice creates conflict and stories are built around conflict.
D&D is turning into the episode of Star Trek Next Gen where the entire plot is that they are all concerned about Data's low self-esteem...
Except those of us who EMBRACED the fun of dealing with the strife. To just play a "good drow" and complain about the negative consequences is a naked power grab.
And, who even cares about the canon, because now it's destroyed.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Hello Crzyhawk,
I fail to see how this addition reduces your ability to enjoy the already established drow lore, how my desire to play a drow unfettered by culturally engrained evil and oppression is a power grab, or how canon is destroyed. To me, this feels like catastrophizing. Things change, even what we understand about the world we live in (or in this case, the world we play in). Retcons are made to keep content relevant or to make changes that are seen as improvements. Tolkien made several revisions to his own lore as he went over the years, why can’t there be something new added here? Especially when there is a desire for it from at least some drow players. You will be under no obligation to play one of these new drow if you are not inclined to do so.
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Hello Yamana_Eajii,
I don’t know if I really agree that it is counterproductive. The apparent isolationist approach isn’t really demonstrative of a progressive society, but it does provide a reasonable and realistic reason why other drow were unheard of until recently and it provides an easy hook for players who choose to be adventurers. Someone from the aevendrow, for example, might have decided that they want to see the world, rather than the traditional approach of being a drow fleeing oppression and obscene violence. I also noted from the article that these are just two revealed factions, but it implied more. In time, perhaps there will be other factions that have very different reasons for not being known to outsiders. Salvatore has been writing Drizzt for a long time and with great success. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will continue to write enjoyable stories that fans will accept and love.
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Agreed. Pretty much sums up my own feelings about the Aevendrow and the Lorendrow.
I may have to read the article again, because I have a different understanding of what the udadrow are. This is definitely possible, as my signature states, but my impression was that the traditional drow are the udadrow, not a splinter faction, and the those women who carry the mark of Lolth are simply those who are exceptionally devout among the drow of the underdark. If I read it correctly, it is a religious marking, which is subject to removal should anyone divorce themselves from Lolth or fall out of favor.
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Which is not a bad thing
I honestly wish I never gave my thoughts on this discussion, because every time it's bumped by some person still whining the exact same grievances expressed on the very first page, I get an email notification about it. Holy hell, some of the more dramatic takes on this are ridiculous. I don't understand why some folks put so much work into getting into a lather in a game of make-believe.
Wizards of the Coast are steering their community towards becoming more inclusive and representational, making it a welcome place for everyone to join the game. If people can't understand why having a whole race of 'dark skinned' elves in a matriarchal society are always 'evil' is a huge embarrassing problem from a less thoughtful era, then I really don't know what to tell them, other than "if you don't like changes, you are allowed to just say 'okay', and move on."
You can unsubscribe from the thread if you don't want to keep getting notification. It's under Tools on top of the page.
As people already sait in the thread, if people choose to see dark skinned elves as an allegory for real life races, it's their right but it's dumb. Following the same logic, the demon lord Graz'zt should be problematic: his skin is obsidian black and in his case, he's just pure evil.
As stated many times here, the "evilness" of the Drow have nothing to do with the color of their skin or their matriarchy. It's to worship of a evil goddes being at the core of their society that leads to evil. When compasion and love are seen as weaknesses and ambition and betrayal are seen as disireable, it leads to a society where "evil" is the norme. Doesn't not mean they're evil at heart.
Also, the Drow are a matriarchy because of their worship of Lloth. So it would makes sense that the new "non-evil Drow" socities who do not worship her might not be matriarchies. If anyone knows, please let me know.
As far as I remember the article, yes the Udadrow are the new name of what we simply call Drow. The splinter faction or not part is less clear, from my understanding the way they said it makes it sound like the Udadrow aren't the biggest group of "Drow". So not a splinter faction but not 80% of Drow either.
I understand the Lolth mark thing in about the same way as you - though I don't remember if only women can get the mark - and in same sense it's fine and can make sense. The issue I and some people have with it is that I has never been needed so far. They've always seemed to be able to know if one had Lolth's favor without any marking. The lack of markings also allows Drows to deceive and pretend to have her blessing. Not the worst change but also an easy excuse to say drow with markings = evil drow thus it's fine to kill.
God help the ones who lack the means to remove those markings then.
Just because its assumed they lose them if they lose favor what if they don't?!
I've been reading responses to this and find them very interesting and one day I might pick up whatever supplement actually discusses this, but for now I'll keep an eye on this thread as I find it quite good for potential ideas!
I agree with you. It’s been a good discussion.