Based on a previous thread I made, I thought I'd open a more general and story-focused thread about power levels in our settings.
So the questions is, how would you describe the power level in your own/customized setting and what kind of systems or measures do you use for keeping it where you want, if any? You can use references to other literature, but bear in mind that people might not be familiar with it, so please describe the basic idea with a few sentences. :)
1. I love High Powered and OP characters. I love them a lot as both player characters and NPCs. Of course they are more generally seen as NPCs, but I also love it when players eventually get there.
2. Because of the first one, I need to pay extra close attention to power levels, so it doesn't turn into Looney Toons.
What is the power level of my settings usually - and how did I get here?
I remember watching Once Upon a Time and it had an amazing portrayal of Rumpelstiltskin. Absolutely loved how insanely powerful he was. Almost omnipotent. It's really difficult to write super powerful characters and make it reasonable why they don't just easily win. But it's an amazing challenge as a writer.
I used to have way too many, too powerful characters in my settings. Every powerful and influential person had a super high overall power level. The world had very little room for ordinary life eventually. As players got to higher levels themselves, it came to light that only mega strong individuals mattered.
I want my players to always be able to feel the natural and mundane worlds despite their current level. I was playing in a campaign made by a friend of mine. An amazing DM. In their beautiful world, they had these Ancient Mage Towers. It was unclear who made them, but they were powerful beyond a measure. They were all dedicated to a school of magic.
An Archmage was a person in charge of a tower and leading said school of magic. From the beginning, we knew and felt that these people were very powerful. When I spoke with my friend, he said that those Archmages were between caster levels 13-20. We wouldn't know, though. Near their towers they had almost unlimited powers, but as Mages they weren't all ridiculously powerful. They had all special skills that made them powerful, unique and interesting without having a ridiculously high overall power level. And the Headmaster of a mage school in a major city was around level 8-9 spellcaster. This Headmaster was a key character early in the adventure, but because of this tight and controlled power level scale, that Headmaster felt like an amazing character even at higher levels.
They also had these Avatars of the gods. They were literally chosen by a god and able to speak to the god directly. But! This had nothing to do with their level. An Avatar of the God of Nature could summon a flood big enough to drown an entire city with the snap of a finger and understood things that other mortals wouldn't even think about. But they could still be less than level 1, so they'd be pretty normal people and quite killable with a dagger in the back. Some of course were also high level. This really made me change my perspective.
Ever since, I have been giving many of my NPCs unique powers that don't match their overall CR or power level. A Grandmaster Wizard who is the best enchanter in the world, but barely a above level 10 as a spellcaster. Or an otherwise unremarkable priest, but can resurrect. I feel like this allows for amazing displays of power, without increasing the overall power level of the setting. So these individuals are powerful in some way, but not in every way like a typical high level character.
And then I've kept those overall high level/CR characters at minimum.
I read some of the Dragonlance books. They are quite low magic. It was written in a way that made Raistlin using Feather Fall, Charm Person and Sleep seem like superhero. And when another wizard cast Fireball, it was mind blowing and awe inspiring. I'd like the world to feel like a Fireball is awe inspiring too. But I also want there to be those super high level individuals.
And lastly. When the players get to high levels, I want them to be special. In my books, a level 10 player is a sight to behold. So when a player like this goes into a typical adventurer/mercenary tavern, I want them to feel - quite rightfully so - that they could probably take down everyone there at the same time. I grant them special titles to match the power level and they can quite easily get a court audience, except in the most highest and closed circles. At level 15+, they are world changing superpowers and even Archmages and Kings treat them with respect. At this point, enemy numbers don't really matter anymore. You don't deal with them by direct force, because you'd need a party of heroes and careful planning to take them out.
So these are my thoughts on setting power levels. Feel free to comment or ask. What about you? What does power level mean to you?
How would you describe the power level in your own/customized setting:
Low, but only when seen in isolation. The magic level is controlled by me - the GM - but the PC's really should feel quite powerful and magical indeed, because most everyone they'll ever meet has no magic at all, nor any class or levels for that matter. That being the point, of course: When everyone is super, no one is. So in order for the PC's to feel powerful and magical, I've taken the magic away. It works.
What kind of systems or measures do you use for keeping it where you want, if any:
Draconian control! No, not really I guess. But there are no magic items shops, and that basically means I do away with the entire Gold-to-Power foundation of the game. This leads to interesting things, like players actually investing gold in stuff like houses, businesses, transportation and so on - stuff that builds the story and the character, rather than just increasing stats or giving a new once-per-long-rest ability.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I like this approach. I usually have magic shops for wizard spells and magic items for spending that hard earned gold. But in my games it's very controlled what you can buy.
Generally magic shops in capitals have almost every level 1-2 spell or uncommon item for sale if you can wait some time and pay some extra. Also plenty of rare items and mid level spells, but getting a specific item requires pulling favors and lots of extra gold. And specific Very Rare items and 6+ spells can't be bought in shops. You can buy information, maps etc. and find them in-game. Single random very rare items may be found in the most renowned shops but they cost an insane amount of money. 😄
But I do like that wizards can buy low lvl spells easily.
Well - I arrive at much the same result, but entirely without the magic>gold thing. Players generally get whatever spells they desire - one way or another - but they never buy them. Or what's paid to buy them is never gold, anyways. Maybe it's a rare flower, or a poem, or it's rewarded for a quest.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I run a modified FR campaign set (now) after the spellplague. Common magic items are common and not overly expensive, on the other hand most are pretty useless for adventuring unless you are very creative. I reworked a bunch of the magic tables in terms of rarity and cost based on my estimation of what should actually be common, uncommon, rare etc. so things like +1 weapons and armors are uncommon +2 are rare and +3 are very rare while specialized or class specific things are typically one step rarer - there just have never been as many folks wanting them. There are shops like Aurora’s that buy and sell magic and there are mages and places known to create items for the right price but such things aren’t cheap. I figure that adventurers make up about 5% of the overall population - either idiots/fools that think it’s a quick trip to wealth and glory, folks trying survive and falling into it, younger sons/daughters that aren’t enheriting much and so have to find an alternate way etc. the vast majority of the population doesnt mess with magic, adventure etc as they recognize it’s far more dangerous and either pays really well or kills you and they are happy with smaller and safer payouts. I typically run somewhere between a 10-20% kill rate ( or near kill rate) so surviving is always a win. The current campaign is in an undeveloped/reforming section of Faerun and I’m draining off coin using Aquisitions Inc based off a group already present but putting a lot of business opportunities for the team as well as adventuring opportunities. I modify existing adventures mostly upping or lowering the challenge as needed (sometimes on the fly) . It’s possible for the PCs to go to L20 and beyond and be world changers but it’s not required they can pretty much stop at any point and retire on their laurels too.
My setting is a new (less than 500 years old) nation on the frontiers of civilization. There are many retired Adventurers among the NPCs with two thirds of them all at levels 5, 4 or 3. This is because I need "officials" with some clout to relate to the PCs as they get started. The reason for this is because the retired adventurers were drawn to the idea of becoming an adventurer by the allure of wealth, but then they had that one experience that scared the crap out of them and they went back to civilization and found something else to do. But because they were former adventurers they were given a job with some status, like being a Sheriff of a town or something. But there are other NPC figures that are even higher, with the NPCs topping out around level 15. These level 15 characters are like Gandolf in the setting because they are well known and highly respected figures. So far, the two highest characters in the story are both Bards. One works directly for the King and the other is himself a retired adventurer that is allied with the king but doesn't work FOR the King. He is working on his own agenda including training Bards to become adventurers. The party has traveled through the Realm of a level 10 Paladin, the Duke of Copernicus, and through the Realm of a level 10 Fighter, the Duke of Orion, and the subdivisions of Counties and Baronies in these two Duchies. Now, as level 4 party members, they have moved beyond the borders of civilization into the known lands of the Orcs. The Orcs have a nomadic culture of hunters and the party has been asked to speak to the Orcs in an attempt to establish diplomatic relations between the two cultures. Of course, the party if freaked out with this quest because two of them are Elves.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
In my world there is still epic magic and ther are 4 NPCS (ex PCs of mine) that read over half the Nether scrolls before they were destroyed. They are capable of creating essentially any nonartifact item and one, who became a god, can even create artifacts. Given the history of the game and of Faerun it’s poassble to come across essentially any magic item TSR/WOtC has created since the basic edition came out n the mid ‘70s. One of them is also a 20th century engineer, scientist sand historian that has created a number of unique weapons that reproduce most of the effects of modern weapons without using gunpowder/smokepowder.
I have two that I'm working on, one of which has been mostly today. The idea is that the world is a bunch of small islands, and there's a group of wizards and artificers that are working to join the islands together. I'm trying to dissuade the wizard class, as most are more or less scholars and civil servants for the one main civilization. It's not particularly advanced, though there's a somewhat plot device of portals that they use which is like the pinnacle of tech/magic for the past 200 years. (sounds pretty damned impressive, but just imagine the "gate" spell at 9th level and such spells in your average campaign. This is bigger size, but only links two places together and its "permanent". I mean its an impressive feat, but it's also a LOT of artificers and wizards working on them).
Anyhow, I'm thinning of giving any wizard some freebies, like mend, prestidigitation, message, and a few other cantrips that just fit the theme/archetype. I have yet to do it, but wish and a number of other stupidly overpowered in regular games spells are going to go, and I might take a few spells here and there from other spell lists and reassign some wizard spells to other classes.
See, this starts to sound like a high fantasy, uber-magical, advanced technology world, but it's more like the library at Alexandria and the Roman Empire (and the empire is more like an alliance/federation of the group of the most connected/known island nations) trying to explore and unify the rest of the world, except there's no land route anywhere and it all needs to be mapped and "discovered".
As such, the magic of druids and sorcerers I want to be more prominent and take center stage and for the wildness of the world to be reflective in their magic. Sorcerers conjuring up firebolts and druids being the ones that can kill or heal with a single word. . (yeah yeah, clerics and paladins, and so on exist too and yeah, yeah, yeah...) Rangers being the star melee, though pirates so rogues and fighters too, and untamed lands means barbarians.
The setting's robust enough to do political intrigue, have a threat to the not terribly old alliance, and many other urban stories still, but I like the underpowered magic in the urban areas where wizards just aren't going to be trying to cast a damned meteor shower, but they might REALLY be good at divination or abjuration/ conjuration in creating protective spheres, or conjuring walls or invisible servants... Things that have more peaceful utility. (or at least fit that theme).
Overall, I think I'm just shifting power balance/specialty and taking a sideways step to what more campaigns might be.
EDIT: I haven't considered magic items very much but I think I'd probably give out far less of them than most campaigns might, but I really want the ones they do get to be unusual and exotic rather than just "a plus 1 sword!" Give them that bag o' teeth from tasha's book or something equally as weird and creepy. An otherworldly glass eye that washed ashore and has some weird divination/foretell properties... and somehow, without an eyelid or being set in a socket.... somehow... SOMEHOW... you swear you see it occasionally blink.
The emphasis on exploration and the weird and the unknown and things being kinda new and exciting and wild just really, really need that emphasis driven home...
Healing potions and the general sundries are common enough though. maybe some other unusual potions. Water breathing fairly common as well.
I really should copy and paste these notes into my document tomorrow...
The other one runs as a regular quest just maybe less magical items offered. I have very little fleshed out for a campaign for the former above, and less world building fleshed out for the latter, but more campaign.
The modules are happy to toss just the wildest crap you way. I'm not a fan of that. It makes money pointless and generally the items are just not appropriate for what you're up against. (like Dragon Heist giving a bunch of fireball charges to your characters at level 3. Granted, some of it is useless to the quests, but still.... Same goes for the treasure stashes...)
Giving starting mages freebies is a bad idea - they are/become the most powerful characters easily enough and balancing everything against the upgraded mages is just making more work for yourself all the way along. A good way to judge is to start by looking at the published worlds and their histories, then at their abundance of magic and what starting characters begin with.a good example is the Forgotten Realms. It has a history of 35,000 years of magic at very high levels - not just maxing it at L9 but going up to L10&11 and elven high magic/Epic magic. There are magic items galore ranging from newly created common items, potions, scrolls and gems/runes to ancient artifacts all (almost) laying around on the ground for folks to pick up. Definitely a high magic setting. Yet mages start with no extras beyond what crosses over from the various other settings books (Ebberon, Strixhaven, etc), a language, a couple of skills, maybe a feat and the PHB starting spells and cantrips. If you really want to give them a bonus give them an extra language or skill - maybe give them arcana and 2 other skills instead of arcan as one of their 2 skills. Give them a language that matches one of the world’s great lost magic realms (for FR that could be draconic, elven, Netherese, etc) to show their background training or traditions. For a high magic campaign maybe start giving common i magic, potions and scrolls earlier as well as basic +1 simple weapons and lighter armors. Generally items without attunement are nice finds at lower levels even if only occasionally useful. Because you are limited to 3 attunement items giving these out should be done with greater care.
I tend to give out some choice magic items fairly early in a campaign. Then I judge the power levels of the characters and dole out more items over time to bring the lower powered PCs up to par, or a little above par. Then, once the most powerful PCs have started to drift towards the lower end of the spectrum I start to give them more stuff to to rebalance things. It ends up becoming a cycle of slow power creep that maintains things quite nicely. That way I can throw whatever at the party without any clue how they’ll survive but it’s okay because they’re powerful enough to take it.
Giving starting mages freebies is a bad idea - they are/become the most powerful characters easily enough and balancing everything against the upgraded mages is just making more work for yourself all the way along. A good way to judge is to start by looking at the published worlds and their histories, then at their abundance of magic and what starting characters begin with.a good example is the Forgotten Realms. It has a history of 35,000 years of magic at very high levels - not just maxing it at L9 but going up to L10&11 and elven high magic/Epic magic. There are magic items galore ranging from newly created common items, potions, scrolls and gems/runes to ancient artifacts all (almost) laying around on the ground for folks to pick up. Definitely a high magic setting. Yet mages start with no extras beyond what crosses over from the various other settings books (Ebberon, Strixhaven, etc), a language, a couple of skills, maybe a feat and the PHB starting spells and cantrips. If you really want to give them a bonus give them an extra language or skill - maybe give them arcana and 2 other skills instead of arcan as one of their 2 skills. Give them a language that matches one of the world’s great lost magic realms (for FR that could be draconic, elven, Netherese, etc) to show their background training or traditions. For a high magic campaign maybe start giving common i magic, potions and scrolls earlier as well as basic +1 simple weapons and lighter armors. Generally items without attunement are nice finds at lower levels even if only occasionally useful. Because you are limited to 3 attunement items giving these out should be done with greater care.
I thnk you got hung up on that "freebies" part and did not read anything else of what I said. This is setting specific, and I'm nerfing the top end of their list. Also,hte spells given for free are cantrips and very specific ones that are for role play not combat. Prestidigitation isn't going to be game breaking nor is mend. And message? Maybe the wizard can bore a monster to death....
(granted, I am in a game with a very creative wizard using bonfire and telekinesis to knock monsters into flames, so yeah, even some cantrips can be quite powerful, but again, look at the spells I'm talking about.)
So I went back to read the whole thing - I still think even extra cantrips as freebies is a bit much. It sounds like this will actually be a low magic campaign as it doesn’t sound like there is any sort of (known) ancient history of magic. I wouldnt really worry about nerfing high level magic as there is a good chance they will never get there. In a low magic campaign there really isn’t a need for the freebies. What I would do is have the rangers and sorcerors use the UA2 &5 versions as they are much better than the any other options. Give them additional skills or feats if you want ( if you want them to have some different cantrips let them have a magic initiate feat - 2 cantrips and a L1 spell- of their choice). Let them know very clearly in session 0 before character creation that it’s going to be exploration and sailing heavy so they can design with that in mind rather than gifting their characters with what you think they need. found magic - it sounds like there is/was at least one “ancient high magic” civilization that created the eye and other weird and interesting/highly useful items ( probably all homebrewed and attuned) but for the stuff from their civilization it probably is mostly very plain Jane +1 (&+2 if they get to high enough levels) items. Common magic items and marine oriented items do sound like they should be fairly easy to get even at low levels. Again if you want to boost them at low levels things like caps of water breathing, and rings of swimming or water walking don’t require attunement but do provide a certain safety in a Marne environment.
So I went back to read the whole thing - I still think even extra cantrips as freebies is a bit much. It sounds like this will actually be a low magic campaign as it doesn’t sound like there is any sort of (known) ancient history of magic. I wouldnt really worry about nerfing high level magic as there is a good chance they will never get there. In a low magic campaign there really isn’t a need for the freebies. What I would do is have the rangers and sorcerors use the UA2 &5 versions as they are much better than the any other options. Give them additional skills or feats if you want ( if you want them to have some different cantrips let them have a magic initiate feat - 2 cantrips and a L1 spell- of their choice). Let them know very clearly in session 0 before character creation that it’s going to be exploration and sailing heavy so they can design with that in mind rather than gifting their characters with what you think they need. found magic - it sounds like there is/was at least one “ancient high magic” civilization that created the eye and other weird and interesting/highly useful items ( probably all homebrewed and attuned) but for the stuff from their civilization it probably is mostly very plain Jane +1 (&+2 if they get to high enough levels) items. Common magic items and marine oriented items do sound like they should be fairly easy to get even at low levels. Again if you want to boost them at low levels things like caps of water breathing, and rings of swimming or water walking don’t require attunement but do provide a certain safety in a Marne environment.
Well, I wouldn't say "low magic" unless you're saying comparative to Eberron or the Forgotten Realms of 5e. It's just that they don't have a strong ARCANE tradition. Magic is more wild, and less studied, and they aren't stone age.
You're probably right on the artifacts, but it's more to say that artefacts can drive plots. (thinking a little Chtuhlu and Lovecraft themed stuff as one offs or campaign fodder later on).
Also, this one isn't for a specific campaign storyline as of yet, but as a possible style guide for a new setting for various campaigns that I can return to.. (why I decided to do this, I have no idea, but here we are).
You may be right with the high spells, but I want them removed because Murphy's Law. The cantrip.... I may scale back on how many, because every one you give out means there's a chance they might grab something naughty, but I feel strongly about them getting one or two related to the idea of them being at a school for magic, and the idea of being taught for civil service off the bat like mend. Maybe though it might be better to come up with a list of 4 or 5 that fit that my theme and give them a choice of 2.
This is wizard only, btw. and purely due to the lore.
Druids, priests, and sorcerers aren't getting revised down. (except for any spells I deem super naughty at those pesky higher levels). If anything, a few arcane spells might swap over and become druid/sorcerer spells. Mind you this all requires sitting down and going deep into "the list"....
Yes it does mean going thru the lists carefully. My one complaint with the UA2 ranger is that they are forbidden evocation spells which strikes me as very off for a combat class I get as if they have access to things like firebolt or chill touch why do they need a bow? But I could easily see them with booming blade or green flame blade. The problem with mending is that it eliminates skill checks for fixing anything broken by everyone else taking away from other players after they selected those skills/tools to fit their characters. Message has a similar problem as allows for hidden negotiation from a distance taking away that agency from any bards/paladins in the party and giving it all to the caster with the cantrip. This is part of why I recommend no extra cantrips - they will tend to take away agency from other players.
Yes it does mean going thru the lists carefully. My one complaint with the UA2 ranger is that they are forbidden evocation spells which strikes me as very off for a combat class I get as if they have access to things like firebolt or chill touch why do they need a bow? But I could easily see them with booming blade or green flame blade. The problem with mending is that it eliminates skill checks for fixing anything broken by everyone else taking away from other players after they selected those skills/tools to fit their characters. Message has a similar problem as allows for hidden negotiation from a distance taking away that agency from any bards/paladins in the party and giving it all to the caster with the cantrip. This is part of why I recommend no extra cantrips - they will tend to take away agency from other players.
I don't feel like repairing things comes up that often, but you have a point with message.
And yes, the UA is starting to try and paint things with big broad strokes and fast changes when more nuance is needed.
I wouldn't worry about the cantrips even one bit, if it's just a few extra cantrips. If you have a reason or desire to give them extra cantrips, then by all means do. You are not going to break anything that isn't already broken, especially if they are handpicked by yourself.
Some races get free cantrips, some subclasses get free cantrips, feats give cantrips - and if you dip just one level into another class, you get a whole bunch of cantrips. You can easily get 10 cantrips with multiclassing and race/subclass choices without any homebrewing.
I don't agree with the points about Message and Mending for example. Items being broken is not generally a DnD 5e problem, unless the DM specifically makes it so. Message negotiation doesn't give anyone any special charms, so it doesn't take away from charisma classes unless you cast an additional spell with resources and/or consequences. Wizards as a class tends to take away agency from all classes, but they pay the price in other ways.
And wizards can get both of those cantrips either way. So if message or mending would break the adventure, then you'd have to ban them altogether. But they won't break it.
DnD is a terrible system for a game that relies heavily on things being difficult and complicated, such as mysteries/survival. A level 1 druid will make food obsolete with goodberries. And if the DM bans goodberries, there is the cleric's create food. And by level 5 they get Tiny Hut, making environmental hazards meaningless. You get the point. Eventually the DM will have to ban so many features and spells that the entire purpose of a class will get wrecked. So I say: Ride the wave instead of trying to stop it. And if you want a mystery game, then there are other great rule systems for that.
The cantrips could seem unfair to some players, though. But it seems to me like other classes have their own neat stuff in your plan, mechanical or social. :)
Are there spells that eliminate problems - of course, that is what spells do. That’s not the point. At L1 the starting mage is going to have 6 spells in their spellbook , 3 cantrips known and 2 spell slots to cast with, they have to prioritize. Yes a hundreds of years old level 20 Wizard may well have every spell known in their spell book but they can still only prepare about 25 of those for use - if they have a ranger in the party is tiny hut really a good use of one of those spots? They get away with a bunch of things because unlike every other casting class they can cast rituals from their spellbook not from their prepared list automatically - getting that ability costs every other caster a feat. Any idjit can create a Wizard that steps on every other character’s agency just to be annoying - but such idjits seldom last long at any table. Yes Druids and rangers can cast goodberry to provide rations when there are none, but is that the way they are normally used? No - they are used to raise the downed fighters, heal the injured, etc. if a few happen to be left at the end of the day and get used to extend rations great, many is the day when there are none left. 40+ years of homebrewing has taught me that WOtC generally does a decent job of balancing things ( not always and not necessarily the way I would have) and messing with their balance often has unforeseen (but foreseeable) consequences (example - giving a ranger evocation cantrips and spells, so now the entire archer version of every ranger is rendered neutered since the cantrips are unlimited, and do increasingly more damage - 2 d8 at L5 matching the damage of the second arrow you get at L5, and the 3d8 and 4 d8 at higher levels - why carry a bow and quiver full of arrows? I pointed out some of the consequences that other players MIGHT feel when the extra cantrips that are generally not taken at L1, or, when taken are taken at the expense of other cantrips by choice.
My point is that the consequences of a few handpicked freebie cantrips are likely very small. Cantrips require a lot of creativity to be very good and their effects are so detailed/limited that it gives the DM a lot of ruling power.
In my experience, unlike many levelled spells, they often pair really well with skill checks so they can actually increase party agency and offer nice team work situations. 😄
Hey,
Based on a previous thread I made, I thought I'd open a more general and story-focused thread about power levels in our settings.
So the questions is, how would you describe the power level in your own/customized setting and what kind of systems or measures do you use for keeping it where you want, if any? You can use references to other literature, but bear in mind that people might not be familiar with it, so please describe the basic idea with a few sentences. :)
Here is the original thread: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/170134-the-wizard-scale-for-controlling-power-inflation#c2
My own preferences are based on two factors:
1. I love High Powered and OP characters. I love them a lot as both player characters and NPCs. Of course they are more generally seen as NPCs, but I also love it when players eventually get there.
2. Because of the first one, I need to pay extra close attention to power levels, so it doesn't turn into Looney Toons.
What is the power level of my settings usually - and how did I get here?
I remember watching Once Upon a Time and it had an amazing portrayal of Rumpelstiltskin. Absolutely loved how insanely powerful he was. Almost omnipotent. It's really difficult to write super powerful characters and make it reasonable why they don't just easily win. But it's an amazing challenge as a writer.
I used to have way too many, too powerful characters in my settings. Every powerful and influential person had a super high overall power level. The world had very little room for ordinary life eventually. As players got to higher levels themselves, it came to light that only mega strong individuals mattered.
I want my players to always be able to feel the natural and mundane worlds despite their current level. I was playing in a campaign made by a friend of mine. An amazing DM. In their beautiful world, they had these Ancient Mage Towers. It was unclear who made them, but they were powerful beyond a measure. They were all dedicated to a school of magic.
An Archmage was a person in charge of a tower and leading said school of magic. From the beginning, we knew and felt that these people were very powerful. When I spoke with my friend, he said that those Archmages were between caster levels 13-20. We wouldn't know, though. Near their towers they had almost unlimited powers, but as Mages they weren't all ridiculously powerful. They had all special skills that made them powerful, unique and interesting without having a ridiculously high overall power level. And the Headmaster of a mage school in a major city was around level 8-9 spellcaster. This Headmaster was a key character early in the adventure, but because of this tight and controlled power level scale, that Headmaster felt like an amazing character even at higher levels.
They also had these Avatars of the gods. They were literally chosen by a god and able to speak to the god directly. But! This had nothing to do with their level. An Avatar of the God of Nature could summon a flood big enough to drown an entire city with the snap of a finger and understood things that other mortals wouldn't even think about. But they could still be less than level 1, so they'd be pretty normal people and quite killable with a dagger in the back. Some of course were also high level. This really made me change my perspective.
Ever since, I have been giving many of my NPCs unique powers that don't match their overall CR or power level. A Grandmaster Wizard who is the best enchanter in the world, but barely a above level 10 as a spellcaster. Or an otherwise unremarkable priest, but can resurrect. I feel like this allows for amazing displays of power, without increasing the overall power level of the setting. So these individuals are powerful in some way, but not in every way like a typical high level character.
And then I've kept those overall high level/CR characters at minimum.
I read some of the Dragonlance books. They are quite low magic. It was written in a way that made Raistlin using Feather Fall, Charm Person and Sleep seem like superhero. And when another wizard cast Fireball, it was mind blowing and awe inspiring. I'd like the world to feel like a Fireball is awe inspiring too. But I also want there to be those super high level individuals.
And lastly. When the players get to high levels, I want them to be special. In my books, a level 10 player is a sight to behold. So when a player like this goes into a typical adventurer/mercenary tavern, I want them to feel - quite rightfully so - that they could probably take down everyone there at the same time. I grant them special titles to match the power level and they can quite easily get a court audience, except in the most highest and closed circles. At level 15+, they are world changing superpowers and even Archmages and Kings treat them with respect. At this point, enemy numbers don't really matter anymore. You don't deal with them by direct force, because you'd need a party of heroes and careful planning to take them out.
So these are my thoughts on setting power levels. Feel free to comment or ask. What about you? What does power level mean to you?
Finland GMT/UTC +2
How would you describe the power level in your own/customized setting:
Low, but only when seen in isolation. The magic level is controlled by me - the GM - but the PC's really should feel quite powerful and magical indeed, because most everyone they'll ever meet has no magic at all, nor any class or levels for that matter. That being the point, of course: When everyone is super, no one is. So in order for the PC's to feel powerful and magical, I've taken the magic away. It works.
What kind of systems or measures do you use for keeping it where you want, if any:
Draconian control! No, not really I guess. But there are no magic items shops, and that basically means I do away with the entire Gold-to-Power foundation of the game. This leads to interesting things, like players actually investing gold in stuff like houses, businesses, transportation and so on - stuff that builds the story and the character, rather than just increasing stats or giving a new once-per-long-rest ability.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I like this approach. I usually have magic shops for wizard spells and magic items for spending that hard earned gold. But in my games it's very controlled what you can buy.
Generally magic shops in capitals have almost every level 1-2 spell or uncommon item for sale if you can wait some time and pay some extra. Also plenty of rare items and mid level spells, but getting a specific item requires pulling favors and lots of extra gold. And specific Very Rare items and 6+ spells can't be bought in shops. You can buy information, maps etc. and find them in-game. Single random very rare items may be found in the most renowned shops but they cost an insane amount of money. 😄
But I do like that wizards can buy low lvl spells easily.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Well - I arrive at much the same result, but entirely without the magic>gold thing. Players generally get whatever spells they desire - one way or another - but they never buy them. Or what's paid to buy them is never gold, anyways. Maybe it's a rare flower, or a poem, or it's rewarded for a quest.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I run a modified FR campaign set (now) after the spellplague. Common magic items are common and not overly expensive, on the other hand most are pretty useless for adventuring unless you are very creative. I reworked a bunch of the magic tables in terms of rarity and cost based on my estimation of what should actually be common, uncommon, rare etc. so things like +1 weapons and armors are uncommon +2 are rare and +3 are very rare while specialized or class specific things are typically one step rarer - there just have never been as many folks wanting them. There are shops like Aurora’s that buy and sell magic and there are mages and places known to create items for the right price but such things aren’t cheap. I figure that adventurers make up about 5% of the overall population - either idiots/fools that think it’s a quick trip to wealth and glory, folks trying survive and falling into it, younger sons/daughters that aren’t enheriting much and so have to find an alternate way etc. the vast majority of the population doesnt mess with magic, adventure etc as they recognize it’s far more dangerous and either pays really well or kills you and they are happy with smaller and safer payouts. I typically run somewhere between a 10-20% kill rate ( or near kill rate) so surviving is always a win. The current campaign is in an undeveloped/reforming section of Faerun and I’m draining off coin using Aquisitions Inc based off a group already present but putting a lot of business opportunities for the team as well as adventuring opportunities. I modify existing adventures mostly upping or lowering the challenge as needed (sometimes on the fly) . It’s possible for the PCs to go to L20 and beyond and be world changers but it’s not required they can pretty much stop at any point and retire on their laurels too.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
My setting is a new (less than 500 years old) nation on the frontiers of civilization. There are many retired Adventurers among the NPCs with two thirds of them all at levels 5, 4 or 3. This is because I need "officials" with some clout to relate to the PCs as they get started. The reason for this is because the retired adventurers were drawn to the idea of becoming an adventurer by the allure of wealth, but then they had that one experience that scared the crap out of them and they went back to civilization and found something else to do. But because they were former adventurers they were given a job with some status, like being a Sheriff of a town or something. But there are other NPC figures that are even higher, with the NPCs topping out around level 15. These level 15 characters are like Gandolf in the setting because they are well known and highly respected figures. So far, the two highest characters in the story are both Bards. One works directly for the King and the other is himself a retired adventurer that is allied with the king but doesn't work FOR the King. He is working on his own agenda including training Bards to become adventurers. The party has traveled through the Realm of a level 10 Paladin, the Duke of Copernicus, and through the Realm of a level 10 Fighter, the Duke of Orion, and the subdivisions of Counties and Baronies in these two Duchies. Now, as level 4 party members, they have moved beyond the borders of civilization into the known lands of the Orcs. The Orcs have a nomadic culture of hunters and the party has been asked to speak to the Orcs in an attempt to establish diplomatic relations between the two cultures. Of course, the party if freaked out with this quest because two of them are Elves.
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I appreciate your sharing and experience because I have the same thought.
eggy car
In my world there is still epic magic and ther are 4 NPCS (ex PCs of mine) that read over half the Nether scrolls before they were destroyed. They are capable of creating essentially any nonartifact item and one, who became a god, can even create artifacts. Given the history of the game and of Faerun it’s poassble to come across essentially any magic item TSR/WOtC has created since the basic edition came out n the mid ‘70s. One of them is also a 20th century engineer, scientist sand historian that has created a number of unique weapons that reproduce most of the effects of modern weapons without using gunpowder/smokepowder.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I have two that I'm working on, one of which has been mostly today.
The idea is that the world is a bunch of small islands, and there's a group of wizards and artificers that are working to join the islands together. I'm trying to dissuade the wizard class, as most are more or less scholars and civil servants for the one main civilization. It's not particularly advanced, though there's a somewhat plot device of portals that they use which is like the pinnacle of tech/magic for the past 200 years. (sounds pretty damned impressive, but just imagine the "gate" spell at 9th level and such spells in your average campaign. This is bigger size, but only links two places together and its "permanent". I mean its an impressive feat, but it's also a LOT of artificers and wizards working on them).
Anyhow, I'm thinning of giving any wizard some freebies, like mend, prestidigitation, message, and a few other cantrips that just fit the theme/archetype. I have yet to do it, but wish and a number of other stupidly overpowered in regular games spells are going to go, and I might take a few spells here and there from other spell lists and reassign some wizard spells to other classes.
See, this starts to sound like a high fantasy, uber-magical, advanced technology world, but it's more like the library at Alexandria and the Roman Empire (and the empire is more like an alliance/federation of the group of the most connected/known island nations) trying to explore and unify the rest of the world, except there's no land route anywhere and it all needs to be mapped and "discovered".
As such, the magic of druids and sorcerers I want to be more prominent and take center stage and for the wildness of the world to be reflective in their magic. Sorcerers conjuring up firebolts and druids being the ones that can kill or heal with a single word. . (yeah yeah, clerics and paladins, and so on exist too and yeah, yeah, yeah...) Rangers being the star melee, though pirates so rogues and fighters too, and untamed lands means barbarians.
The setting's robust enough to do political intrigue, have a threat to the not terribly old alliance, and many other urban stories still, but I like the underpowered magic in the urban areas where wizards just aren't going to be trying to cast a damned meteor shower, but they might REALLY be good at divination or abjuration/ conjuration in creating protective spheres, or conjuring walls or invisible servants... Things that have more peaceful utility. (or at least fit that theme).
Overall, I think I'm just shifting power balance/specialty and taking a sideways step to what more campaigns might be.
EDIT: I haven't considered magic items very much but I think I'd probably give out far less of them than most campaigns might, but I really want the ones they do get to be unusual and exotic rather than just "a plus 1 sword!" Give them that bag o' teeth from tasha's book or something equally as weird and creepy. An otherworldly glass eye that washed ashore and has some weird divination/foretell properties... and somehow, without an eyelid or being set in a socket.... somehow... SOMEHOW... you swear you see it occasionally blink.
The emphasis on exploration and the weird and the unknown and things being kinda new and exciting and wild just really, really need that emphasis driven home...
Healing potions and the general sundries are common enough though. maybe some other unusual potions. Water breathing fairly common as well.
I really should copy and paste these notes into my document tomorrow...
The other one runs as a regular quest just maybe less magical items offered.
I have very little fleshed out for a campaign for the former above, and less world building fleshed out for the latter, but more campaign.
The modules are happy to toss just the wildest crap you way. I'm not a fan of that. It makes money pointless and generally the items are just not appropriate for what you're up against. (like Dragon Heist giving a bunch of fireball charges to your characters at level 3. Granted, some of it is useless to the quests, but still.... Same goes for the treasure stashes...)
Giving starting mages freebies is a bad idea - they are/become the most powerful characters easily enough and balancing everything against the upgraded mages is just making more work for yourself all the way along. A good way to judge is to start by looking at the published worlds and their histories, then at their abundance of magic and what starting characters begin with.a good example is the Forgotten Realms. It has a history of 35,000 years of magic at very high levels - not just maxing it at L9 but going up to L10&11 and elven high magic/Epic magic. There are magic items galore ranging from newly created common items, potions, scrolls and gems/runes to ancient artifacts all (almost) laying around on the ground for folks to pick up. Definitely a high magic setting. Yet mages start with no extras beyond what crosses over from the various other settings books (Ebberon, Strixhaven, etc), a language, a couple of skills, maybe a feat and the PHB starting spells and cantrips. If you really want to give them a bonus give them an extra language or skill - maybe give them arcana and 2 other skills instead of arcan as one of their 2 skills. Give them a language that matches one of the world’s great lost magic realms (for FR that could be draconic, elven, Netherese, etc) to show their background training or traditions. For a high magic campaign maybe start giving common i magic, potions and scrolls earlier as well as basic +1 simple weapons and lighter armors. Generally items without attunement are nice finds at lower levels even if only occasionally useful. Because you are limited to 3 attunement items giving these out should be done with greater care.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I tend to give out some choice magic items fairly early in a campaign. Then I judge the power levels of the characters and dole out more items over time to bring the lower powered PCs up to par, or a little above par. Then, once the most powerful PCs have started to drift towards the lower end of the spectrum I start to give them more stuff to to rebalance things. It ends up becoming a cycle of slow power creep that maintains things quite nicely. That way I can throw whatever at the party without any clue how they’ll survive but it’s okay because they’re powerful enough to take it.
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I thnk you got hung up on that "freebies" part and did not read anything else of what I said. This is setting specific, and I'm nerfing the top end of their list. Also,hte spells given for free are cantrips and very specific ones that are for role play not combat. Prestidigitation isn't going to be game breaking nor is mend. And message? Maybe the wizard can bore a monster to death....
(granted, I am in a game with a very creative wizard using bonfire and telekinesis to knock monsters into flames, so yeah, even some cantrips can be quite powerful, but again, look at the spells I'm talking about.)
So I went back to read the whole thing - I still think even extra cantrips as freebies is a bit much. It sounds like this will actually be a low magic campaign as it doesn’t sound like there is any sort of (known) ancient history of magic. I wouldnt really worry about nerfing high level magic as there is a good chance they will never get there. In a low magic campaign there really isn’t a need for the freebies. What I would do is have the rangers and sorcerors use the UA2 &5 versions as they are much better than the any other options. Give them additional skills or feats if you want ( if you want them to have some different cantrips let them have a magic initiate feat - 2 cantrips and a L1 spell- of their choice). Let them know very clearly in session 0 before character creation that it’s going to be exploration and sailing heavy so they can design with that in mind rather than gifting their characters with what you think they need.
found magic - it sounds like there is/was at least one “ancient high magic” civilization that created the eye and other weird and interesting/highly useful items ( probably all homebrewed and attuned) but for the stuff from their civilization it probably is mostly very plain Jane +1 (&+2 if they get to high enough levels) items. Common magic items and marine oriented items do sound like they should be fairly easy to get even at low levels. Again if you want to boost them at low levels things like caps of water breathing, and rings of swimming or water walking don’t require attunement but do provide a certain safety in a Marne environment.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Well, I wouldn't say "low magic" unless you're saying comparative to Eberron or the Forgotten Realms of 5e. It's just that they don't have a strong ARCANE tradition. Magic is more wild, and less studied, and they aren't stone age.
You're probably right on the artifacts, but it's more to say that artefacts can drive plots. (thinking a little Chtuhlu and Lovecraft themed stuff as one offs or campaign fodder later on).
Also, this one isn't for a specific campaign storyline as of yet, but as a possible style guide for a new setting for various campaigns that I can return to.. (why I decided to do this, I have no idea, but here we are).
You may be right with the high spells, but I want them removed because Murphy's Law. The cantrip.... I may scale back on how many, because every one you give out means there's a chance they might grab something naughty, but I feel strongly about them getting one or two related to the idea of them being at a school for magic, and the idea of being taught for civil service off the bat like mend. Maybe though it might be better to come up with a list of 4 or 5 that fit that my theme and give them a choice of 2.
This is wizard only, btw. and purely due to the lore.
Druids, priests, and sorcerers aren't getting revised down. (except for any spells I deem super naughty at those pesky higher levels). If anything, a few arcane spells might swap over and become druid/sorcerer spells. Mind you this all requires sitting down and going deep into "the list"....
Yes it does mean going thru the lists carefully. My one complaint with the UA2 ranger is that they are forbidden evocation spells which strikes me as very off for a combat class I get as if they have access to things like firebolt or chill touch why do they need a bow? But I could easily see them with booming blade or green flame blade. The problem with mending is that it eliminates skill checks for fixing anything broken by everyone else taking away from other players after they selected those skills/tools to fit their characters. Message has a similar problem as allows for hidden negotiation from a distance taking away that agency from any bards/paladins in the party and giving it all to the caster with the cantrip. This is part of why I recommend no extra cantrips - they will tend to take away agency from other players.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I don't feel like repairing things comes up that often, but you have a point with message.
And yes, the UA is starting to try and paint things with big broad strokes and fast changes when more nuance is needed.
I wouldn't worry about the cantrips even one bit, if it's just a few extra cantrips. If you have a reason or desire to give them extra cantrips, then by all means do. You are not going to break anything that isn't already broken, especially if they are handpicked by yourself.
Some races get free cantrips, some subclasses get free cantrips, feats give cantrips - and if you dip just one level into another class, you get a whole bunch of cantrips. You can easily get 10 cantrips with multiclassing and race/subclass choices without any homebrewing.
I don't agree with the points about Message and Mending for example. Items being broken is not generally a DnD 5e problem, unless the DM specifically makes it so. Message negotiation doesn't give anyone any special charms, so it doesn't take away from charisma classes unless you cast an additional spell with resources and/or consequences. Wizards as a class tends to take away agency from all classes, but they pay the price in other ways.
And wizards can get both of those cantrips either way. So if message or mending would break the adventure, then you'd have to ban them altogether. But they won't break it.
DnD is a terrible system for a game that relies heavily on things being difficult and complicated, such as mysteries/survival. A level 1 druid will make food obsolete with goodberries. And if the DM bans goodberries, there is the cleric's create food. And by level 5 they get Tiny Hut, making environmental hazards meaningless. You get the point. Eventually the DM will have to ban so many features and spells that the entire purpose of a class will get wrecked. So I say: Ride the wave instead of trying to stop it. And if you want a mystery game, then there are other great rule systems for that.
The cantrips could seem unfair to some players, though. But it seems to me like other classes have their own neat stuff in your plan, mechanical or social. :)
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Are there spells that eliminate problems - of course, that is what spells do. That’s not the point. At L1 the starting mage is going to have 6 spells in their spellbook , 3 cantrips known and 2 spell slots to cast with, they have to prioritize. Yes a hundreds of years old level 20 Wizard may well have every spell known in their spell book but they can still only prepare about 25 of those for use - if they have a ranger in the party is tiny hut really a good use of one of those spots? They get away with a bunch of things because unlike every other casting class they can cast rituals from their spellbook not from their prepared list automatically - getting that ability costs every other caster a feat. Any idjit can create a Wizard that steps on every other character’s agency just to be annoying - but such idjits seldom last long at any table. Yes Druids and rangers can cast goodberry to provide rations when there are none, but is that the way they are normally used? No - they are used to raise the downed fighters, heal the injured, etc. if a few happen to be left at the end of the day and get used to extend rations great, many is the day when there are none left. 40+ years of homebrewing has taught me that WOtC generally does a decent job of balancing things ( not always and not necessarily the way I would have) and messing with their balance often has unforeseen (but foreseeable) consequences (example - giving a ranger evocation cantrips and spells, so now the entire archer version of every ranger is rendered neutered since the cantrips are unlimited, and do increasingly more damage - 2 d8 at L5 matching the damage of the second arrow you get at L5, and the 3d8 and 4 d8 at higher levels - why carry a bow and quiver full of arrows? I pointed out some of the consequences that other players MIGHT feel when the extra cantrips that are generally not taken at L1, or, when taken are taken at the expense of other cantrips by choice.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
My point is that the consequences of a few handpicked freebie cantrips are likely very small. Cantrips require a lot of creativity to be very good and their effects are so detailed/limited that it gives the DM a lot of ruling power.
In my experience, unlike many levelled spells, they often pair really well with skill checks so they can actually increase party agency and offer nice team work situations. 😄
Depends a lot on how the DM handles them.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Amen. 😄
Finland GMT/UTC +2