I've often been wondering if this scenario would work:
A squad of US soldiers in Afghanistan are in a house when it gets hit by a Taliban attack. In one way or another, they are knocked unconscious and wake up in a ruined building a few miles from Neverwinter. The world starts taken over by a dragon-worshipping cult, and the soldiers must stop it to get back to their world.
Would their weapons be too overpowered? Would the residents of the Forgotten Realms accept them or treat them like aliens from another plane of existence? If they chose the second option, would that still make a good campaign starter? Thoughts?
Their weapons would just be interesting and powerful, sure they could turn kill a guard with a click of their gun, but so does smashing their skull in with a maul. Considering how strange their attire would be and their fascinating weapons, they would probably be treated as outsiders or something.
I mean, that might be a good campaign starter, but you’ll have to explain how much guns they have, what classes are restricted and what level they start at, I probably wouldn’t put a marine above level 2 unless their all rearly experienced.
To me, the problem is action economy. Our soldiers have (as an example) some style of AR-15 variant. It can easily empty a full mag in a single round, and with practice, you can place all those shots in a torso sized area at maybe 100'. Well, propably not shoulder fired, but regardless.
So you can do an absurd amount of damage.
However, each soldier goes into combat with - most likely - 5 or maybe 6 mags of ammo. So. In short: They'll be super OP for 5-6 rounds of combat, at which point they'll likely be bringing knives to a swordfight.
Or they can conserve their ammo. That'd be clever, but comes at the cost of all that damage.
It's difficult. Do they have full gear? If so, they also each carry at least a couple of hand grenades, and there'll likely be a squard LMG and anti tank weapon. They'll have night vision (which is by no means limited to 30'), and radio coms, for as long as battery lasts.
How are they for rations? Because there's no guarantee they can just forage for food.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As mentioned above there is a limit to ammo & battery power. There are rules for firearms. If you bring in modern weapons, how do you homebrew the stats, range/damage/etc.
It might be easier to run this instead: A squad of US soldiers in Afghanistan are innear a house when it gets hit by a Taliban attack. They rush into the house for cover and find themselves not in a house, but the entrance door opened up into your fantasy land.
Add a words of lights/noise/etc. describing a one way portal. This way you can give them the appropriate weapons & armor & clothes. I assume they already have the character classes already.
As mentioned above there is a limit to ammo & battery power. There are rules for firearms. If you bring in modern weapons, how do you homebrew the stats, range/damage/etc.
It might be easier to run this instead: A squad of US soldiers in Afghanistan are innear a house when it gets hit by a Taliban attack. They rush into the house for cover and find themselves not in a house, but the entrance door opened up into your fantasy land.
Add a words of lights/noise/etc. describing a one way portal. This way you can give them the appropriate weapons & armor & clothes. I assume they already have the character classes already.
First are we talking regular army/marines or are we talking special forces? The later, whether army, navy, marines or Air Force are a whole different category for this. If regular military, once the ammo and batteries runs out your basically normal people with clubs, knives and roughly studded leather armor that grants advantage against piercing attacks. Put a bayonet on the rifle and you have the equivalent of a ykla or short spear (no throwing). Of course they would be picking up the weapons of those they killed so they would be learning how to use “primitive” weapons later on. So they would be mostly basically fighters of L1-3 (noncoms). Some might be rangers rather than fighters (ranger badged members). One might sort of qualify as a cleric (medic). Special forces are trained in wilderness survival, stealth and “primitive” weapons. They generally have a number of years of experience as well as considerable advanced training. They would probably qualify as L3-5 ranger multiclasses. They would be taking the weapons from those they killed to have tools for combat once the ammo runs out. They also would have things like solar battery chargers to keep their batteries charged leaving them with “magic” items to see in the dark (120’) and communicate (radios and silent language - hand signals). If the new world is one with gunpowder or an equivalent then they would be cleaning up their brass and remaking bullets and grenades. Such a team would be an interesting group to play.
The logistics would bite them with a quickness. I was in the US Army in 1995 to 1999. I was not infantry, but was trained in basic infantry tactics.
A soldier's basic load was 210 rounds of 5.56mm ammo for their individual weapon in 7 30 round magazines. We'd sometimes carry more, but that was rare. Sometimes there'd be an M203 grenade launcher. The 203 gunner would carry a basic load of 5.56 for the M-16 portion of the weapon, and I am not sure how many. I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 rounds for the grenade launcher. A squad would also have an M-249 automatic rifle. Between the auto rifleman and the rest of the squad, you've probably got an extra thousand rounds of 5.56. if you have an officer with you, you might have an extra 9mm with ~45 rounds or so in 3 15 round magazines.
Now, that might sound like a LOT of ammo, but we were not trained for one shot, one kill. We were trained to suppress. You shoot in the general direction of the enemy and keep his head down, while another element can maneuver and attempt to flank. That ammo will go away with a quickness. 5.56 is likely to not be very effective at shooting at anything other than cultists, and if the cultists were wearing any sort of heavy armor, the effectiveness would be quite low. M855 will penetrate an old soviet style helmet, but thick plate armor is likely going to stop it or slow it down enough to be ineffective. You may have a single AT-4 rocket launcher (recoilless rifle) and a couple of claymore anti-personnel mines. Use them wisely.
Then there's batteries. You night vision and radios aren't going to keep batteries for long. You'll have maybe a week worth of continuous use.
When the tech fails, these guys are in a world of trouble. In the 90s we trained with bayonets. For a single day. And it wasn't critical training. It was too hot the day my basic company did the bayonet training, and we were not allowed to do the assault course. The rifle with bayonet is kind of a short spear. So, these guys could probably pick up spears and hold their own against peasant farmers with the training I had back in the day. I don't think that bayonet training is done anymore though, so YMMV. Anyone knew knows their way around medieval weapons though would hand them their backsides. They've have a very short window of opportunity to "win" and get home before they are completely combat ineffective.
I read a short story when I was in high school called "The Man Who Came Early" about a US Army MP being transported back in time to the viking era in Iceland. The short version of the ending is, the guy gives a good account of himself with his pistol before it runs out of ammo and he's taken down. That's how I see things happening for these guys.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
But against an enemy with little or no ranged ability, supression would be silly. And you underestimate the penetration of 5.56. Although sure, it won't punch through ceramic or metal (or composite) armor. But 'leathery skin' or whatever we imagine infernals as having won't stop it.
While ammo lasts, soldiers are more than capable of handling infernals - in my view. It all comes down to numbers. If numbers are like 1:1, army wins. At some rate, and I couldn't say whether it's 10:1 or 20:1, or maybe 100:1 - but eventually, the ability to kill at range is overwhelmed, and infernals win.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Ummm, first who said anything about infernals they are showing up near Neverwinter? As Crzyhawk points out much of the fire training is suppressive not aimed fire ( I think the marines still teach aimed fire but it’s more by guess and by gosh in the other services) so unless some are hunters before joining it’s not going to take long even at 3 round bursts before the ammo is gone. I haven’t looked closely at unit equipment in years but with all the small drones and other gear I wouldn’t be too surprised if even small units didn’t have some sort of packable solar battery charge systems today so batteries might last a bit longer. As I said earlier SF are a whole different ballgame with non standard equipment, much more training and battle experience to fall back on.
I will say this about he ammo and battery problem - given the number of campaigns that don’t keep track of rations, arrows, torches, components, etc unless you have a nitty gritty DM they can be considered as infinite as very thing else which does change the story line considerably.
I've often been wondering if this scenario would work:
A squad of US soldiers in Afghanistan are in a house when it gets hit by a Taliban attack. In one way or another, they are knocked unconscious and wake up in a ruined building a few miles from Neverwinter. The world starts taken over by a dragon-worshipping cult, and the soldiers must stop it to get back to their world.
Would their weapons be too overpowered? Would the residents of the Forgotten Realms accept them or treat them like aliens from another plane of existence? If they chose the second option, would that still make a good campaign starter? Thoughts?
Problem would be, components, just like any spell. How are they replacing the bullets? You ain’t walking into a merchant and say, hey do you have shell casings. Black powder, sure that’s fine because muskets have been in the PHB. So just for that, it would not work long term.
It appears some people are discussing saving brass and repacking ammo so they can fire again.
The theory is: The M16 was designed to wound and maim. It is a light bullet with a high impact speed. so it penetrates a body, and instead of breaking bone, travels along the bone tearing ligaments & tendons. If a person is wounded and incapacitated, then there are usually 2 people who carry them out to an aide station. So down 3 people. If a person is shot and dies, the unit is usually down just the one individual.
Because of the M16 is not an AK47, the ammunition/rife is finicky and/or the ammunition is prone to cause jams. The original actual bullet/shot/lead/etc. is designed to tumble to build up the action that tumbles a bullet along the bone. If you repack, then you will not have the aerodynamics to have any ranged accuracy. Chances are the gunpowder will not have the correct ratio/amount and the bullet will be of varying weight. The brass shell may not properly eject due to gunpowder quality and the specs of the gas needed to discharge. The gunpowder will not be smokeless and also create more deposits that need to be cleaned out of a barrel.
The above is a long ramble why once you are out of ammunition, you are out of it. Repacking will not be an effective counter. This is also why I mentioned that (like the 1980s cartoon) the portal they travel through changes their gear & weapons.
The theory is: The M16 was designed to wound and maim.
That is not true. 5.56 simply means you can carry more ammunition. The M16 has greater lethality than a 7.62 rifle, because the heavier fully capped projectile tends to - sometimes - punch right through, leaving a more easily treatable wound. While the 5.56 tends to fragment, tumble and so on, creating an inner sish-kebab situation that's really difficult to say anything positive about.
Overall, lethality isn't the decider either way, if you get hit in combat, you are essentially out of the fight. Good enogh. The lighter cartridge has slightly shorter range, comparable penetration against most things (but not ceramic or composite plate), but allows you to carry substantially more ammo. The latter really was the deciding factor: Logistics over all other concerns.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The typical modern soldier is a range fighter. Once a fantasy warrior gets within melee range, the soldier is at a severe disadvantage. He is not really carrying anything to meet a sword, axe, or mace with. Revolutionary-Civil War era soldiers would probably fare better as they considered the bayonet an essential weapon. As others point out, special forces or specialty troops would fare better or worse as their training and experience is different.
Also - are you thinking of a straight transport into a fantasy world, ie The Destroyermen and numerous other novels, or a conversion to fantasy, ie the 80s DnD cartoon and numerous level-up novels? Each has its on pros and cons.
"Repacking", correctly called reloading would not be feasible, especially not with the M-16/M-4 family. You would need refined smokeless powder, not black powder or brown powder and jacketed bullets. Black powder and cast bullets would not function well at all. Against, Revolution-Civil War soldiers would be at an advantage as their weapons would function.
Revolutionary-Civil War era soldiers would probably fare better.
Only by a tiny margin. Frankly, humans don't fight particularly well in humans overall - a tiny number of specialists across all ages did. What all the rest did was fight well in formation. Which both is - and particularly isn't - the exact same thing. Fighting with a sword (as an example) requires massiv skill and training. Holding a spear in a tight unit requires .... some training, and massive discipline.
That may be largely ... interpretation, or opinion. I'm not sure someone with greater knowledge would precisely agree =)
But anyhow, a musket infantryman wouldn't fare much better in melee than I would. Statistically, I'm taller and stronger, and I propably have a similar amount of training. I had minimal bayonet training in the early 90's, but I've also shot bows, thrown spears, practiced a bit of sword and knife fighting, and I've boxed for almost 20 years (which doesn't teach you melee, but does teach you how to stand, move and react).
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
If you are playing a gritty reality game and accounting for expendable then yes you have to account for the soldiers expendable as well. On the other hand, if you’re not accounting for the expandable on the FR side why are you only accounting for them on the soldier’s side? Now, gunpowder vs nitro cellulose (smokeless powder); gunpowder is indeed much dirtier than smokeless as well as 3-5 times less powerful. Also, the early M16s did have jamming and fouling problems until they fixed them with a chromed reciever and provided the soldiers with a cleaning kit. Properly maintained (something soldiers are taught) and cared for the modern rifles shouldn’t have major operational problems even if their hitting power is substantially less - which should still be enough. The next problem is bullet/slug size/shape & jacketing. Assuming at least one unaired slug is used to make the molds then the weight and shape shouldn’t be a problem. The jacketing would be a problem as you can’t dip a lead bullet into molten copper so you’re talking about either some sort of alchemical coating or a thin foil process if you want jacketed slugs. Unjacketed your going to have barrel fouling that makes cleaning harder (not impossible just harder). A major problem is going to be primers. The one probably most likely to be developed by alchemists would be mercury fulminate. It has a number of problems that a DM could make use of potentially. Of course creating the copper or brass caps for the primers might create some problems as well. Another big problem as well is the soldiers training in suppressive fire. However the M-16 has a selector and once the nit realizes they “ aren’t in Kansas anymore” and don’t need suppressive fire and do need to conserve ammo (hopefully) they will switch the selector to single shot. They are likely to still use a lot of ammo as the semiautomatic nature of the weapon means you don’t have to reload ( every round or three) or reposition the weapon for aiming and firing allowing for (at least) 6 aimed shots a round - for game purposes I would probably lower this to 4. the armor is a different sort of problem. Modern military armors are primarily aimed at stopping ballistic and blunt trauma threats not slicing attacks but hey do provide some slicing protection. Given that bullets and shrapnel from modern weapons carry far higher energy levels than even the heaviest bows and crossbows while the plates mimic the effects of breast plates and heavy armor against slashing attacks at vital organs. Overall I would place it as +2 studded leather armor of piercing resistance ( so piercing attacks like arrows do half damage. I’m not ven going to try to get to what all the ancillary equipment might look like if translated into game terms.
Revolutionary-Civil War era soldiers would probably fare better.
Fighting with a sword (as an example) requires massiv skill and training.
I think you are overstating the use of a sword. There's a difference between mastering it and using it. Take for example the humble club. Whacking someone with a club is as straight forward as it gets. you can use the exact same 'techniques' with a sword, and you're going to be every bit as effective as the guy with a club, and likely more. The only hard thing about a simple hack with a slashing blade is edge alignment, and that's not super hard, particularly if the hilt design helps you with it. The long blade helps you do hurty things with less precision. An axe, or a mace for example cares a lot more for distance; you have a small area to do hurty things with. Misjudge the distance or speed with an axe or mace, and you hit with the haft and does far, far less damage. Misjudge the distance with a sword, and you hit with a part of the blade that simply has less leverage. Not as damaging as the power area on the blade, but far more than the haft of a 'simpler' weapon.
Now, there's higher skill ceiling with a sword, blocks, parries, feints etc that a less refined weapon, but for an absolute novice, I think the sword has a lot to recommend it for doing bad things to bad people with little to no skill level. at the very base level, hitting someone with a sword is the same or easier than hitting someone with something else. you're not going to be blocking, guarding and feinting with clubs, maces and axes anymore than you are with a sword, and if you have to I recon it's going to be easier and more natural with the sword than those other weapons.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Overall I would place it as +2 studded leather armor of piercing resistance (so piercing attacks like arrows do half damage. I’m not ven going to try to get to what all the ancillary equipment might look like if translated into game terms.
Considering that modern military armour often has hard sections like concrete inside it and a bunch of different parts to ensure that it’s user doesn’t die, I would say it’s on the same level as a Breastplate or Scalemail, so a 14 + Dex for AC. Real life bulletproof vest don’t really give you resistances, with it just being designed to prevent bullets from actually going into you in the first place, if a bullet does penetrate it’s still gonna hurt as much as a normal bullet.
Well, the armor soldiers have are bulletproof armor, but the vest isn't made to protect against the weapons. They have longer range weapons though, so they could fight off the medieval warriors, especially if they have plate armor, as plate is weak to penetration and some blunt, due to the structure (that's why mordschlag worked). But the dragons would be a trouble. Are armor just isn't designed for that. If the dragon steps on them, they die, as no armor would realistically defend against a kaiju sized creature. But even a dragon would have bullet trouble (Armor piercing would most likely). So everyone is a glass canon, but the party has longer range (Assuming a rifle or anything like that.)
Ok let’s try again, I’m trying ( obviously badly) to translate modern military gear into game equivalents.not exactly as easy as you might think. Bullets (5.56N) carry between 1500 & 2500 joules of energy that the armour has to stop. An arrow, from even the strongest bow, only Carry’s at best 200 joules of energy. Armor designed to stop bullets is going to stop arrows. Other piercing attacks (spears, etc)carry more energy but not up to the level of bullets and shrapnel. Modern military armor is designed to stop penetration but significantly weaker against slashing - however the metal and ceramic plates do provide slashing protection for the covered vitals. What it best resembles really is brigantine (leather/cloth double layer with (generally) metal plates sewn between over a padded layer. Sadly D&D doesn’t actually have the Brigandine but does have studded leather (which is taken from misunderstanding depictions of Brigandine) and scale/splint armors. 5e doesn’t really differentiate between slashing and piercing with armors (1e did) which complicates things. Modern body armor weighs between 20-30 pounds which matches with Chan shirts and breastplates so I could except them as analogs. I made it resistant to piercing pretty much any mideveal piercing weapon is not going to come close to penetrating but having it grant mom unity to piercing attacks seems a bit much as there are plenty of exposed areas that can be hit. Also, the overall quality and consistency of modern manufacturing suggests to me a superior product hence the “magical” +2. For the soldiers given their training and selection processes I would stat them as at least a 12-14 in strength, Dex and con and a 10-12 in wisdom and probably intelligence - modern soldiers aren’t typically taken from the stupid or unwise portions of the population and their train and indoctrination improve on those initial stats.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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I've often been wondering if this scenario would work:
A squad of US soldiers in Afghanistan are in a house when it gets hit by a Taliban attack. In one way or another, they are knocked unconscious and wake up in a ruined building a few miles from Neverwinter. The world starts taken over by a dragon-worshipping cult, and the soldiers must stop it to get back to their world.
Would their weapons be too overpowered? Would the residents of the Forgotten Realms accept them or treat them like aliens from another plane of existence? If they chose the second option, would that still make a good campaign starter? Thoughts?
Their weapons would just be interesting and powerful, sure they could turn kill a guard with a click of their gun, but so does smashing their skull in with a maul. Considering how strange their attire would be and their fascinating weapons, they would probably be treated as outsiders or something.
I mean, that might be a good campaign starter, but you’ll have to explain how much guns they have, what classes are restricted and what level they start at, I probably wouldn’t put a marine above level 2 unless their all rearly experienced.
To me, the problem is action economy. Our soldiers have (as an example) some style of AR-15 variant. It can easily empty a full mag in a single round, and with practice, you can place all those shots in a torso sized area at maybe 100'. Well, propably not shoulder fired, but regardless.
So you can do an absurd amount of damage.
However, each soldier goes into combat with - most likely - 5 or maybe 6 mags of ammo. So. In short: They'll be super OP for 5-6 rounds of combat, at which point they'll likely be bringing knives to a swordfight.
Or they can conserve their ammo. That'd be clever, but comes at the cost of all that damage.
It's difficult. Do they have full gear? If so, they also each carry at least a couple of hand grenades, and there'll likely be a squard LMG and anti tank weapon. They'll have night vision (which is by no means limited to 30'), and radio coms, for as long as battery lasts.
How are they for rations? Because there's no guarantee they can just forage for food.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As mentioned above there is a limit to ammo & battery power. There are rules for firearms. If you bring in modern weapons, how do you homebrew the stats, range/damage/etc.
It might be easier to run this instead: A squad of US soldiers in Afghanistan are
innear a house when it gets hit by a Taliban attack. They rush into the house for cover and find themselves not in a house, but the entrance door opened up into your fantasy land.Add a words of lights/noise/etc. describing a one way portal. This way you can give them the appropriate weapons & armor & clothes. I assume they already have the character classes already.
Great Thinking
First are we talking regular army/marines or are we talking special forces? The later, whether army, navy, marines or Air Force are a whole different category for this. If regular military, once the ammo and batteries runs out your basically normal people with clubs, knives and roughly studded leather armor that grants advantage against piercing attacks. Put a bayonet on the rifle and you have the equivalent of a ykla or short spear (no throwing). Of course they would be picking up the weapons of those they killed so they would be learning how to use “primitive” weapons later on. So they would be mostly basically fighters of L1-3 (noncoms). Some might be rangers rather than fighters (ranger badged members). One might sort of qualify as a cleric (medic).
Special forces are trained in wilderness survival, stealth and “primitive” weapons. They generally have a number of years of experience as well as considerable advanced training. They would probably qualify as L3-5 ranger multiclasses. They would be taking the weapons from those they killed to have tools for combat once the ammo runs out. They also would have things like solar battery chargers to keep their batteries charged leaving them with “magic” items to see in the dark (120’) and communicate (radios and silent language - hand signals). If the new world is one with gunpowder or an equivalent then they would be cleaning up their brass and remaking bullets and grenades. Such a team would be an interesting group to play.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The logistics would bite them with a quickness. I was in the US Army in 1995 to 1999. I was not infantry, but was trained in basic infantry tactics.
A soldier's basic load was 210 rounds of 5.56mm ammo for their individual weapon in 7 30 round magazines. We'd sometimes carry more, but that was rare. Sometimes there'd be an M203 grenade launcher. The 203 gunner would carry a basic load of 5.56 for the M-16 portion of the weapon, and I am not sure how many. I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 rounds for the grenade launcher. A squad would also have an M-249 automatic rifle. Between the auto rifleman and the rest of the squad, you've probably got an extra thousand rounds of 5.56. if you have an officer with you, you might have an extra 9mm with ~45 rounds or so in 3 15 round magazines.
Now, that might sound like a LOT of ammo, but we were not trained for one shot, one kill. We were trained to suppress. You shoot in the general direction of the enemy and keep his head down, while another element can maneuver and attempt to flank. That ammo will go away with a quickness. 5.56 is likely to not be very effective at shooting at anything other than cultists, and if the cultists were wearing any sort of heavy armor, the effectiveness would be quite low. M855 will penetrate an old soviet style helmet, but thick plate armor is likely going to stop it or slow it down enough to be ineffective. You may have a single AT-4 rocket launcher (recoilless rifle) and a couple of claymore anti-personnel mines. Use them wisely.
Then there's batteries. You night vision and radios aren't going to keep batteries for long. You'll have maybe a week worth of continuous use.
When the tech fails, these guys are in a world of trouble. In the 90s we trained with bayonets. For a single day. And it wasn't critical training. It was too hot the day my basic company did the bayonet training, and we were not allowed to do the assault course. The rifle with bayonet is kind of a short spear. So, these guys could probably pick up spears and hold their own against peasant farmers with the training I had back in the day. I don't think that bayonet training is done anymore though, so YMMV. Anyone knew knows their way around medieval weapons though would hand them their backsides. They've have a very short window of opportunity to "win" and get home before they are completely combat ineffective.
I read a short story when I was in high school called "The Man Who Came Early" about a US Army MP being transported back in time to the viking era in Iceland. The short version of the ending is, the guy gives a good account of himself with his pistol before it runs out of ammo and he's taken down. That's how I see things happening for these guys.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
But against an enemy with little or no ranged ability, supression would be silly. And you underestimate the penetration of 5.56. Although sure, it won't punch through ceramic or metal (or composite) armor. But 'leathery skin' or whatever we imagine infernals as having won't stop it.
While ammo lasts, soldiers are more than capable of handling infernals - in my view. It all comes down to numbers. If numbers are like 1:1, army wins. At some rate, and I couldn't say whether it's 10:1 or 20:1, or maybe 100:1 - but eventually, the ability to kill at range is overwhelmed, and infernals win.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Ummm, first who said anything about infernals they are showing up near Neverwinter? As Crzyhawk points out much of the fire training is suppressive not aimed fire ( I think the marines still teach aimed fire but it’s more by guess and by gosh in the other services) so unless some are hunters before joining it’s not going to take long even at 3 round bursts before the ammo is gone. I haven’t looked closely at unit equipment in years but with all the small drones and other gear I wouldn’t be too surprised if even small units didn’t have some sort of packable solar battery charge systems today so batteries might last a bit longer. As I said earlier SF are a whole different ballgame with non standard equipment, much more training and battle experience to fall back on.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I will say this about he ammo and battery problem - given the number of campaigns that don’t keep track of rations, arrows, torches, components, etc unless you have a nitty gritty DM they can be considered as infinite as very thing else which does change the story line considerably.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Problem would be, components, just like any spell. How are they replacing the bullets? You ain’t walking into a merchant and say, hey do you have shell casings. Black powder, sure that’s fine because muskets have been in the PHB. So just for that, it would not work long term.
It appears some people are discussing saving brass and repacking ammo so they can fire again.
The theory is: The M16 was designed to wound and maim. It is a light bullet with a high impact speed. so it penetrates a body, and instead of breaking bone, travels along the bone tearing ligaments & tendons. If a person is wounded and incapacitated, then there are usually 2 people who carry them out to an aide station. So down 3 people. If a person is shot and dies, the unit is usually down just the one individual.
Because of the M16 is not an AK47, the ammunition/rife is finicky and/or the ammunition is prone to cause jams. The original actual bullet/shot/lead/etc. is designed to tumble to build up the action that tumbles a bullet along the bone. If you repack, then you will not have the aerodynamics to have any ranged accuracy. Chances are the gunpowder will not have the correct ratio/amount and the bullet will be of varying weight. The brass shell may not properly eject due to gunpowder quality and the specs of the gas needed to discharge. The gunpowder will not be smokeless and also create more deposits that need to be cleaned out of a barrel.
The above is a long ramble why once you are out of ammunition, you are out of it. Repacking will not be an effective counter. This is also why I mentioned that (like the 1980s cartoon) the portal they travel through changes their gear & weapons.
That is not true. 5.56 simply means you can carry more ammunition. The M16 has greater lethality than a 7.62 rifle, because the heavier fully capped projectile tends to - sometimes - punch right through, leaving a more easily treatable wound. While the 5.56 tends to fragment, tumble and so on, creating an inner sish-kebab situation that's really difficult to say anything positive about.
Overall, lethality isn't the decider either way, if you get hit in combat, you are essentially out of the fight. Good enogh. The lighter cartridge has slightly shorter range, comparable penetration against most things (but not ceramic or composite plate), but allows you to carry substantially more ammo. The latter really was the deciding factor: Logistics over all other concerns.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The typical modern soldier is a range fighter. Once a fantasy warrior gets within melee range, the soldier is at a severe disadvantage. He is not really carrying anything to meet a sword, axe, or mace with. Revolutionary-Civil War era soldiers would probably fare better as they considered the bayonet an essential weapon. As others point out, special forces or specialty troops would fare better or worse as their training and experience is different.
Also - are you thinking of a straight transport into a fantasy world, ie The Destroyermen and numerous other novels, or a conversion to fantasy, ie the 80s DnD cartoon and numerous level-up novels? Each has its on pros and cons.
"Repacking", correctly called reloading would not be feasible, especially not with the M-16/M-4 family. You would need refined smokeless powder, not black powder or brown powder and jacketed bullets. Black powder and cast bullets would not function well at all. Against, Revolution-Civil War soldiers would be at an advantage as their weapons would function.
Only by a tiny margin. Frankly, humans don't fight particularly well in humans overall - a tiny number of specialists across all ages did. What all the rest did was fight well in formation. Which both is - and particularly isn't - the exact same thing. Fighting with a sword (as an example) requires massiv skill and training. Holding a spear in a tight unit requires .... some training, and massive discipline.
That may be largely ... interpretation, or opinion. I'm not sure someone with greater knowledge would precisely agree =)
But anyhow, a musket infantryman wouldn't fare much better in melee than I would. Statistically, I'm taller and stronger, and I propably have a similar amount of training. I had minimal bayonet training in the early 90's, but I've also shot bows, thrown spears, practiced a bit of sword and knife fighting, and I've boxed for almost 20 years (which doesn't teach you melee, but does teach you how to stand, move and react).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
If you are playing a gritty reality game and accounting for expendable then yes you have to account for the soldiers expendable as well. On the other hand, if you’re not accounting for the expandable on the FR side why are you only accounting for them on the soldier’s side? Now, gunpowder vs nitro cellulose (smokeless powder); gunpowder is indeed much dirtier than smokeless as well as 3-5 times less powerful. Also, the early M16s did have jamming and fouling problems until they fixed them with a chromed reciever and provided the soldiers with a cleaning kit. Properly maintained (something soldiers are taught) and cared for the modern rifles shouldn’t have major operational problems even if their hitting power is substantially less - which should still be enough. The next problem is bullet/slug size/shape & jacketing. Assuming at least one unaired slug is used to make the molds then the weight and shape shouldn’t be a problem. The jacketing would be a problem as you can’t dip a lead bullet into molten copper so you’re talking about either some sort of alchemical coating or a thin foil process if you want jacketed slugs. Unjacketed your going to have barrel fouling that makes cleaning harder (not impossible just harder). A major problem is going to be primers. The one probably most likely to be developed by alchemists would be mercury fulminate. It has a number of problems that a DM could make use of potentially. Of course creating the copper or brass caps for the primers might create some problems as well. Another big problem as well is the soldiers training in suppressive fire. However the M-16 has a selector and once the nit realizes they “ aren’t in Kansas anymore” and don’t need suppressive fire and do need to conserve ammo (hopefully) they will switch the selector to single shot. They are likely to still use a lot of ammo as the semiautomatic nature of the weapon means you don’t have to reload ( every round or three) or reposition the weapon for aiming and firing allowing for (at least) 6 aimed shots a round - for game purposes I would probably lower this to 4.
the armor is a different sort of problem. Modern military armors are primarily aimed at stopping ballistic and blunt trauma threats not slicing attacks but hey do provide some slicing protection. Given that bullets and shrapnel from modern weapons carry far higher energy levels than even the heaviest bows and crossbows while the plates mimic the effects of breast plates and heavy armor against slashing attacks at vital organs. Overall I would place it as +2 studded leather armor of piercing resistance ( so piercing attacks like arrows do half damage. I’m not ven going to try to get to what all the ancillary equipment might look like if translated into game terms.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think you are overstating the use of a sword. There's a difference between mastering it and using it. Take for example the humble club. Whacking someone with a club is as straight forward as it gets. you can use the exact same 'techniques' with a sword, and you're going to be every bit as effective as the guy with a club, and likely more. The only hard thing about a simple hack with a slashing blade is edge alignment, and that's not super hard, particularly if the hilt design helps you with it. The long blade helps you do hurty things with less precision. An axe, or a mace for example cares a lot more for distance; you have a small area to do hurty things with. Misjudge the distance or speed with an axe or mace, and you hit with the haft and does far, far less damage. Misjudge the distance with a sword, and you hit with a part of the blade that simply has less leverage. Not as damaging as the power area on the blade, but far more than the haft of a 'simpler' weapon.
Now, there's higher skill ceiling with a sword, blocks, parries, feints etc that a less refined weapon, but for an absolute novice, I think the sword has a lot to recommend it for doing bad things to bad people with little to no skill level. at the very base level, hitting someone with a sword is the same or easier than hitting someone with something else. you're not going to be blocking, guarding and feinting with clubs, maces and axes anymore than you are with a sword, and if you have to I recon it's going to be easier and more natural with the sword than those other weapons.
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Considering that modern military armour often has hard sections like concrete inside it and a bunch of different parts to ensure that it’s user doesn’t die, I would say it’s on the same level as a Breastplate or Scalemail, so a 14 + Dex for AC. Real life bulletproof vest don’t really give you resistances, with it just being designed to prevent bullets from actually going into you in the first place, if a bullet does penetrate it’s still gonna hurt as much as a normal bullet.
Well, the armor soldiers have are bulletproof armor, but the vest isn't made to protect against the weapons. They have longer range weapons though, so they could fight off the medieval warriors, especially if they have plate armor, as plate is weak to penetration and some blunt, due to the structure (that's why mordschlag worked). But the dragons would be a trouble. Are armor just isn't designed for that. If the dragon steps on them, they die, as no armor would realistically defend against a kaiju sized creature. But even a dragon would have bullet trouble (Armor piercing would most likely). So everyone is a glass canon, but the party has longer range (Assuming a rifle or anything like that.)
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Ok let’s try again, I’m trying ( obviously badly) to translate modern military gear into game equivalents.not exactly as easy as you might think. Bullets (5.56N) carry between 1500 & 2500 joules of energy that the armour has to stop. An arrow, from even the strongest bow, only Carry’s at best 200 joules of energy. Armor designed to stop bullets is going to stop arrows. Other piercing attacks (spears, etc)carry more energy but not up to the level of bullets and shrapnel. Modern military armor is designed to stop penetration but significantly weaker against slashing - however the metal and ceramic plates do provide slashing protection for the covered vitals. What it best resembles really is brigantine (leather/cloth double layer with (generally) metal plates sewn between over a padded layer. Sadly D&D doesn’t actually have the Brigandine but does have studded leather (which is taken from misunderstanding depictions of Brigandine) and scale/splint armors. 5e doesn’t really differentiate between slashing and piercing with armors (1e did) which complicates things. Modern body armor weighs between 20-30 pounds which matches with Chan shirts and breastplates so I could except them as analogs. I made it resistant to piercing pretty much any mideveal piercing weapon is not going to come close to penetrating but having it grant mom unity to piercing attacks seems a bit much as there are plenty of exposed areas that can be hit. Also, the overall quality and consistency of modern manufacturing suggests to me a superior product hence the “magical” +2. For the soldiers given their training and selection processes I would stat them as at least a 12-14 in strength, Dex and con and a 10-12 in wisdom and probably intelligence - modern soldiers aren’t typically taken from the stupid or unwise portions of the population and their train and indoctrination improve on those initial stats.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.