As the title asks I want to know others peoples thoughts on the best fighter subclass, the thing I'm looking for is the most dpr. I don't play fighter too much so I'm unsure but I believe battlemaster holds that title right now. Unfortunately I am very small brain and feel as though battlemaster just Isn't for me. What would be the next best options at that point? Currently my character is a level 4 kobold that has a +2 to Str instead of Dex thanks to customize your origins, originally I chose champion since its simple and with the number of attacks fighters put out as well as Adv from being a kobold I had hoped to hit crits a lot. I also am using a longsword and shield with the dueling fighting style if that matters. I would love to hear some input about other subclasses or if I already stumbled upon the best dpr subclass excluding battlemasters.
Best DPR? Probably a longbow samurai with sharpshooter and the Archery Fighting Style. But they're all pretty equal. Go with what you think is most appropriate.
Just a side note on battle master first, it's still a solid option for small brain usage, just pick options like brace and riposte for extra attacks and damage options for extra damage. The damage options usually have some added "main feature" but you can just as well skip them and focus on the damage if you think it's complicated.
For instance the maneuvering attack, when you hit you can chose to add damage. In addition another player is allowed to use a reaction to move safely (like a disengage, no attacks of opportunity) away from someone. This allows the party to reposition a bit, but even if no one makes use of it you still did some damage.
Anyways:
the Echo subclass if you're allowed grants you some really good features and is probably the best subclass.
After that I'd say the rune knight, it grants you some cool abilities like becoming large! And also the runes have some really good features.
Third really is the battle master, doing the best options available, while a battle master just doing basic stuff like only damage and extra attacks is probably 4th... :)
As a kobold I think it could be a lot of fun to project your echo to "swarm" your opponent with two of you, or just putting one next to another enemy. It's a very good class.
Rune knight could also be pretty straight forward, becoming large would be surprising and fun for a kobold! And the runes are very good. Some are trickier than others, but you can't really pick and bad choices, they're all good and useful in some way so you could pick the ones with the least thinking required.
There is no such thing as a "best" class or subclass in D&D. While there's nothing wrong with building a powerful character, I firmly believe: role-play first, game-play second. If you really want to maximize your dpr without being a min-maxer, then just go with your gut. Choose whatever seems fun and/or powerful. Feats are a good way to get some more power and/or features if your DM allows that.
Thinking about it I actually really like this idea, would the echo that I can create be able to give me Adv from pack tactics?
If you think battle master is confusing, echo knight is not for you. A lot of the abilities are worded in a way that makes it difficult to tell what it can do, and there’s a lot of DM interpretation needed. Your question here is a great example, I can easily see DMs who would rule either way, as fas as if your echo counts as an ally. (Not trying to start the discussion here, just noting it could be confusing and up to a DM ruling).
To answer your question, a champion fighter is probably the simplest character to play in the game. It can be quite effective, it just won’t be flashy — the wizard will be blowing up the countryside and the monk will be running on walls and catching arrows while you’ll crit more often — it may not feel as cool, but you’ll still be a good contributor to the party. And most of the champion abilities are passive, so you don’t have to remember to do things, or worry about resource management, which is what makes it easier to play, if that’s what you’re going for.
As the title asks I want to know others peoples thoughts on the best fighter subclass, the thing I'm looking for is the most dpr. I don't play fighter too much so I'm unsure but I believe battlemaster holds that title right now. Unfortunately I am very small brain and feel as though battlemaster just Isn't for me. What would be the next best options at that point? Currently my character is a level 4 kobold that has a +2 to Str instead of Dex thanks to customize your origins, originally I chose champion since its simple and with the number of attacks fighters put out as well as Adv from being a kobold I had hoped to hit crits a lot. I also am using a longsword and shield with the dueling fighting style if that matters. I would love to hear some input about other subclasses or if I already stumbled upon the best dpr subclass excluding battlemasters.
Thinking about it I actually really like this idea, would the echo that I can create be able to give me Adv from pack tactics?
Xalthu's right - Echo Knight is multiple orders of magnitude more complicated to play than a Battle Master, and you're probably not prepared for its infinitely deep rabbit hole of rules interactions. On the other hand, Champion is actively bad - the difference between a Champion and a Fighter with no subclass isn't 0, but it's awfully close. The other two subclasses you should avoid if you want to avoid being absolutely bored are Arcane Archer and Banneret (both are failed attempts at what they were intending to do).
What is it about Battle Masters you dislike? Is it analysis paralysis from choosing maneuvers? Is it using your maneuvers effectively? What? And what's your third highest ability, after Strength and Constitution? Battle Master is probably the most synergistic subclass Fighters have with Pack Tactics from kobolds. Samurai are excellent DPR, but their schtick is giving themselves advantage - as a Kobold, you have Pack Tactics to do that for you, and Advantage doesn't stack with itself. Other subclasses have other issues - Cavaliers are top notch tanks, but you said you want DPR. Eldritch Knights make Battle Master resource management and optimality of choice look like a walk in the park. Etc etc.
Without knowing anything else about your character's abilities or what sort of playstyle you're after, I'd suggest you stick with Battle Master, and stop overthinking things. Here's a DPR go brrr way to play them:
Take Precision Attack and Menacing Attack. Your other maneuvers matter much less, so I won't get into the weeds of selecting them right now.
As soon as you can after combat starts, get into melee with the biggest, baddest looking thing in the fight, and bring your battle buddy with you for advantage. Doing this turn 1 is ideal, so you actually want lower initiative, so your buddy can go before you.
Blow your whole wad right now - you're going to Action Surge and use a maneuver on every single attack. Most of them should hit, thanks to Advantage, but if you manage to roll poorly - say, 15 or less, to keep it simple - use Precision Attack. Every time you hit without having used Precision Attack, use Menacing Attack.
Don't do this if the fight lacks anything that looks particularly nasty - you're powered by short rests, meaning you may need to go 2-3 fights per short rest, and you have to guess when you should blow your load. Don't overthink this, though - if there's something you want dead, kill it.
And that's it. Now you're spent until your next short rest, and in the interim, you can just fight without your BM subclass, and it's not like you'll be meaningfully worse than a Champion.
If I had to say yea it would be analysis paralysis from choosing the maneuvers and not wanting to hurt my brain over what might be good in what situation. I was actually thinking of an eldritch knight just cause they seem decent but you mentioned something about their resource management so I'm curious about that. About stats I finally rolled them and I got 2x 16, 3x 14 and a 8.
Thinking about it I actually really like this idea, would the echo that I can create be able to give me Adv from pack tactics?
While I wasn't careful with my wording there, but it might not, it would be up to dm interpretation for sure. But considering it can be killed easily, can attack, can do attacks of opportunity and if using the optional flanking rules should really give the flanking bonus I would allow it for sure.
While I agree with some posts saying role-playing is the most important part, it's also fun to be useful and echo knight is good for role play and usefulness. Champion works. It's not good. But it all depends on what you compare to and what the DM sends on you, champion probably will work at a lot of tables and still be fun. It's still mechanically one of the absolute worst sub classes. But yeah, I played one and had fun.
As for echo knight being complicated, it has some thinking needed in some ways sure, but it's also very clear what you get. You get a set of abilities and don't need to pick between stuff like the battle master does. Still the teleport movement and sending an echo away from you is a Great role play feature, allowing for many cool fun moments. While also being muuuuuuch better than champion. So much. People have to separate their opinion from facts, and the fact is not all classes or subclasses are equal. This doesn't mean they aren't playable like others still would argue. But you don't always have to play the absolute best class to have fun!
That said, echo knight for many reasons is one of the best fighter subclasses, it's also very fun, which is just as important. The fact that you think it sounds fun is what matters the most!
Just ask your dm how they'd rule it, and even if it doesn't work with advantage you can still send the echo to an ally being attacked, you still get the extra attack and can swap to the ally and get advantage there Instead and so on. Try it if you're allowed! And let us know how it works out :)
I don't think Champion was a bad choice at all for a sword n' board fighter who often will have advantage from Pack Tactics. Crits feel nice, and you'll land many!
The weakness of the Champion as a pure class is that it doesn't have anything in its kit which particularly takes advantage of crits... 2d8+Strength+2 isn't particularly more exciting than 1d8+Strength+2. That can be patched with some multiclassing (ranger or rogue or paladin etc.)... but you can also do that with just feats, and fighters get plenty! Fey Touched to pick up Hunter's Mark or Hex isn't bad, though without spell slots you won't be using it every combat. Poisoner is pretty good since Fighters don't have any competing Bonus Actions, but is challenged by you holding a Shield in your off hand (probably more useful for 2H weapon champions). Martial Adept will get you one use of a Battlemaster Maneuver, which isn't awful if you save it for one of your many crits to be a +2d6 hit with a special effect (and you can get another one with Superior Technique as your second champion fighting style, or with the Fighting Initiate feat).
But really, I think one real strength of the Champion that you could lean into is consistent application of the Piercer/Crusher/Slasher debuffs. Slasher provides that enemy has disadvantage on all their attacks whenever you crit them with a slashing weapon- That doesn't help your DPR, but it DOES really debuff major enemies quite severely! Piercer gives you an extra damage dice (3d8 on a crit with a rapier), so that's more aggressive but probably less useful for the group (though, the non-crit damage reroll will also improve your DPR every round). Crusher is probably the MOST offensive, since advantage for your whole party really amps damage up... but the movement effect involves a lot of decision making and isn't always helpful. If I were building a sword n' board kobold who started with +2 strength (17 str, probably 16 con I'm guessing? and rest of your points for 12 Dex and 13 Wisdom), I'd suggest:
Initial Fighting Style: Dueling (+2 damage on all attacks)
4: Slasher or Piercer +1 Str (18) (good debuffs on crits, or more damage)
6: ASI +2 Str (20)
8: Shield Master (improves your dex saves and evasion, and also lets you consistently Bonus Action shove enemies prone after your first attack each round before second)
10: second fighting style: Superior Technique (a 1d6 maneuver like Frightening Attack which you can use as +2d6 damage on a crit after you've confirmed it). Not RAW, but if your DM thinks you can avoid sunlight sensitivity by closing your eyes... blind fighting would be even better! But again, RAW, that's not how sunlight sensitivity works...
12: Skill Expert +1 Wis for Expertise Athletics (better shoves for Shield)
14: Sentinel
16: Martial Adept (another 1d6 maneuver, select more that give interesting effects that you'll want to apply on a crit, not defensive ones like Riposte)? Tough? Lucky? Mage Slayer? Fey Touched +1 Wis (14) for Misty Step and Hunter's Mark once per day each? Resilient (Wis) +1 Wis?
19: Martial Adept (another 1d6 maneuver, select more that give interesting effects that you'll want to apply on a crit, not defensive ones like Riposte)? Tough? Lucky? Mage Slayer? Fey Touched +1 Wis (14) for Misty Step and Hunter's Mark once per day each? Resilient (Wis) +1 Wis?
You're never going to be the DPR king of your team with Sword and Shield. But, you can be a very effective tank and debuffer, and Champion is not a bad class for that at all. Battlemaster would have let you debuff enemies more consistently with maneuvers, but involves a lot of decisions. Champion debuffs with consistent attacks and shield shoves every round, without too many tough decisions other than when to action surge.
That was when we still had a big party and I could focus on tanking (three of our party left because of time conflicts). Now we’re lacking in damage and that character wasn’t in game yet so I was able to change around the stats and feats.
That was when we still had a big party and I could focus on tanking (three of our party left because of time conflicts). Now we’re lacking in damage and that character wasn’t in game yet so I was able to change around the stats and feats.
Gotcha. That makes sense. The problem with asking which is “best” is that it’s a pretty subjective thing.
The only things that seem unchanged over the past two days are Kobold, Fighter, Strength build, and Longsword and shield. A Kobold Fighter that uses a longsword & shield is absolutely fine. If the only thing you are open to changing is it subclass, then you probably don’t need to at all. Stick with being the champ and rock socks. If you want a fighter subclass with a little more pizazz and more to do, but without all of the bazillion choices like the Battle Master has, you might want to look at the Psi Warrior. (They’re basically Jedi.) They feel a lot like the Battle Master without having to make any choices from a bazillion options. Their powers are automatically granted when they level up without players having to choose anything. They end up with some cool options to use, but without getting overloaded with them. A sword & board Kobold Jedi sounds like a ton of fun.!
I’m just trying to get a feel for how much wiggle room there is. Lemme ask you these questions:
Why specifically a Kobold?
Why specifically a Fighter?
Why specifically Strenth?
Why specifically Longsword & Shield?
If you could do more DPR with a Dex build using a rapier & shield, would that be something you would consider? Or a Strength build Kobold with longsword & shield, but they’re a Barbarian or Paladin? Or a Bugbear Fighter with longsword & shield? Or a Kobold Fighter who uses a halberd instead of longsword and shield?
Which parts are intrinsic to your character, and which parts aren’t?
For all those questions the only specific is that I remain a kobold. I chose fighter just because I assumed they were one of if not the best class for dpr. I also did Str just because really, I have no clue if Dex weapons can reach a higher dpr somehow. I think something important to me is that my main damage options be open to me at all times. What I mean by that Is I don't want to have to debate if I should spend some resource now to do something or save it for something later, an example might be the echo knights ability to make the echos (I actually don't know if there's a limit on how often they can do that) or an eldritch knights cantrips (granted they get spells and stuff but that wouldn't be my main way of killing stuff).
Edit: Also for my Asi I just gave myself two increases to Str to hit 20 and I was wondering if that was worth it for an eldritch knight (my Con is 16 and my Int is 14). I also have no clue what I should use for my cantrips, the rest of my party is made up of paladins so booming blade isnt too useful since everyone's in melee to begin with but for green-flame blade my Int is only 14 so It seems like a waste as just making two separate attacks would be better.
Xalthu's right - Echo Knight is multiple orders of magnitude more complicated to play than a Battle Master, and you're probably not prepared for its infinitely deep rabbit hole of rules interactions.
This is definitely true on the forums and there are a lot of complicated edge cases that have spawned a lot of heated discussions.
But at the same time most echo knights I've seen in practice just... summon an echo and make an attack and that's pretty much it and no one really has any issue. Not to outright disagree that there's a lot of nuance to the subclass, but I also think it's a little bit overstated for how many groups will utilize it. It's also complicated in a very different way than the battlemaster, you're not picking from a large list of abilities... what you get is relatively straight forward. It's just that there's a lot that can be done within that space.
Xalthu's right - Echo Knight is multiple orders of magnitude more complicated to play than a Battle Master, and you're probably not prepared for its infinitely deep rabbit hole of rules interactions.
This is definitely true on the forums and there are a lot of complicated edge cases that have spawned a lot of heated discussions.
But at the same time most echo knights I've seen in practice just... summon an echo and make an attack and that's pretty much it and no one really has any issue. Not to outright disagree that there's a lot of nuance to the subclass, but I also think it's a little bit overstated for how many groups will utilize it. It's also complicated in a very different way than the battlemaster, you're not picking from a large list of abilities... what you get is relatively straight forward. It's just that there's a lot that can be done within that space.
Yup, this was my point too and since op is worried about picking the wrong choices, echo knight is more straight forward in that sense.
Also just because they don't want lots of choices to pick from, doesn't mean they don't want to be able to do different things.
And saying champion is as good as any other subclass is objectively wrong ;)
Strength builds suffer from needing Str and Con and heavy armor (which is a pain in the neck unless you sleep in it), and everyone wants Wis. But a Dex build means having to invest in less stuff. That’s because Dex ends up used for Attacks, AC, one of the three most important Saving Throws, and a wackton of skills. Str gets used for attacks, 1 skill… and jumping. Besides, as a Kobold you can’t use heavy weapons like the greatsword/greataxe, so you’re going to be limited to a d10 damage weapon at most anyway. (A Rapier is only slightly lower at 1d8 which is a negligible difference of 1 point of damage difference on average.)
One of the highest DPR PCs I have ever DMed for is a Dex fighter with a Longbow and sharpshooter. Of course, as a Kobold you would have to downgrade slightly to a shortbow. Which is not really an issue for the DPR (1d8 Vs. 1d6 is negligible), but the range means getting closer to melee than an archer build likes.
One of the advantages when it comes to Fighters is that almost all of their resources refresh on a short rest. Just for the sake of simplicity, if the DM does everything “by the book” most of the time, the party will be in approximately 6ish medium difficulty fights per adventuring day, and will get around 2 short rests per adventuring day on average. So, for example, a Battle Master could spend half of their superiority dice in a fight, then the other half in the next fight, then a short rest, rinse & repeat, rinse & take a long rest and do it all again tomorrow. They can spam features like crazy because if they just put their heads down on their desks for a nap they come back at almost full force. (I say “almost” because Indomitable is a long rest only resource.)
Now, I can understand about the analysis paralysis. (I used to be in sales and any salesperson can attest that the fastest way to loose a sale is to present the customer with too many options.) That was kinda why I suggested the Psi Warrior. No choices to make except when to spend a energy die. And most of their powers don’t actually burn that die unless they work, if it fails you can keep the die. At 1st level you would get 4 dice every short rest, and at 17th level it’s 12 per short rest (36/day on average!!)
But if resource management is that big of a concern for you, and you want to stick with Fighter, it doesn’t get any simpler than Champion. (Heck, my dog could probably play a Champ.)
But for DPR you could go Sorlock (Divine Soul) and spam Hex, Eldritch Blast, and Spiritual Weapon all day long and rack ‘em up. A Bardlock would work too, College of Swords + Hexblade is a chicken dinner winner right there. Of course, any spellcaster means managing their resource of spell slots.
However, if 0 resource Management is important to you and DPR is your aim, most Rogues can DPR like you wouldn’t believe, and the less amazing options, like Assassin, is still a contender. They have almost no resources to spend, they just do all their stuff all the time, sneak attack is ridonculous, if you go, say, Scout (for shooting), or Swashbuckler (for stabbing), or Inquisitive (for versatility) you would likely be very happy.
To be 100% honest, the highest DPR builds will require some degree of resource management, there’s just no getting around that. If you eliminate all resource management then you sacrifice some capability, it’s a trade off.
As the title asks I want to know others peoples thoughts on the best fighter subclass, the thing I'm looking for is the most dpr. I don't play fighter too much so I'm unsure but I believe battlemaster holds that title right now. Unfortunately I am very small brain and feel as though battlemaster just Isn't for me. What would be the next best options at that point? Currently my character is a level 4 kobold that has a +2 to Str instead of Dex thanks to customize your origins, originally I chose champion since its simple and with the number of attacks fighters put out as well as Adv from being a kobold I had hoped to hit crits a lot. I also am using a longsword and shield with the dueling fighting style if that matters. I would love to hear some input about other subclasses or if I already stumbled upon the best dpr subclass excluding battlemasters.
Thank you in advance!
Best DPR? Probably a longbow samurai with sharpshooter and the Archery Fighting Style. But they're all pretty equal. Go with what you think is most appropriate.
Just a side note on battle master first, it's still a solid option for small brain usage, just pick options like brace and riposte for extra attacks and damage options for extra damage. The damage options usually have some added "main feature" but you can just as well skip them and focus on the damage if you think it's complicated.
For instance the maneuvering attack, when you hit you can chose to add damage. In addition another player is allowed to use a reaction to move safely (like a disengage, no attacks of opportunity) away from someone. This allows the party to reposition a bit, but even if no one makes use of it you still did some damage.
Anyways:
the Echo subclass if you're allowed grants you some really good features and is probably the best subclass.
After that I'd say the rune knight, it grants you some cool abilities like becoming large! And also the runes have some really good features.
Third really is the battle master, doing the best options available, while a battle master just doing basic stuff like only damage and extra attacks is probably 4th... :)
As a kobold I think it could be a lot of fun to project your echo to "swarm" your opponent with two of you, or just putting one next to another enemy. It's a very good class.
Rune knight could also be pretty straight forward, becoming large would be surprising and fun for a kobold! And the runes are very good. Some are trickier than others, but you can't really pick and bad choices, they're all good and useful in some way so you could pick the ones with the least thinking required.
Thinking about it I actually really like this idea, would the echo that I can create be able to give me Adv from pack tactics?
There is no such thing as a "best" class or subclass in D&D. While there's nothing wrong with building a powerful character, I firmly believe: role-play first, game-play second. If you really want to maximize your dpr without being a min-maxer, then just go with your gut. Choose whatever seems fun and/or powerful. Feats are a good way to get some more power and/or features if your DM allows that.
If you think battle master is confusing, echo knight is not for you. A lot of the abilities are worded in a way that makes it difficult to tell what it can do, and there’s a lot of DM interpretation needed. Your question here is a great example, I can easily see DMs who would rule either way, as fas as if your echo counts as an ally. (Not trying to start the discussion here, just noting it could be confusing and up to a DM ruling).
To answer your question, a champion fighter is probably the simplest character to play in the game. It can be quite effective, it just won’t be flashy — the wizard will be blowing up the countryside and the monk will be running on walls and catching arrows while you’ll crit more often — it may not feel as cool, but you’ll still be a good contributor to the party. And most of the champion abilities are passive, so you don’t have to remember to do things, or worry about resource management, which is what makes it easier to play, if that’s what you’re going for.
As far an using an Echo for pack tactics I don’t think it works as it is not a creature so not an ally See this thread
But Echo knight is powerful and if you are playing on a grid gives great maneuverability. (Has great maneuverability no matter how you play but grid helps) See this video on Echo Knight and how to use the Echo
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Xalthu's right - Echo Knight is multiple orders of magnitude more complicated to play than a Battle Master, and you're probably not prepared for its infinitely deep rabbit hole of rules interactions. On the other hand, Champion is actively bad - the difference between a Champion and a Fighter with no subclass isn't 0, but it's awfully close. The other two subclasses you should avoid if you want to avoid being absolutely bored are Arcane Archer and Banneret (both are failed attempts at what they were intending to do).
What is it about Battle Masters you dislike? Is it analysis paralysis from choosing maneuvers? Is it using your maneuvers effectively? What? And what's your third highest ability, after Strength and Constitution? Battle Master is probably the most synergistic subclass Fighters have with Pack Tactics from kobolds. Samurai are excellent DPR, but their schtick is giving themselves advantage - as a Kobold, you have Pack Tactics to do that for you, and Advantage doesn't stack with itself. Other subclasses have other issues - Cavaliers are top notch tanks, but you said you want DPR. Eldritch Knights make Battle Master resource management and optimality of choice look like a walk in the park. Etc etc.
Without knowing anything else about your character's abilities or what sort of playstyle you're after, I'd suggest you stick with Battle Master, and stop overthinking things. Here's a DPR go brrr way to play them:
And that's it. Now you're spent until your next short rest, and in the interim, you can just fight without your BM subclass, and it's not like you'll be meaningfully worse than a Champion.
If I had to say yea it would be analysis paralysis from choosing the maneuvers and not wanting to hurt my brain over what might be good in what situation. I was actually thinking of an eldritch knight just cause they seem decent but you mentioned something about their resource management so I'm curious about that. About stats I finally rolled them and I got 2x 16, 3x 14 and a 8.
While I wasn't careful with my wording there, but it might not, it would be up to dm interpretation for sure. But considering it can be killed easily, can attack, can do attacks of opportunity and if using the optional flanking rules should really give the flanking bonus I would allow it for sure.
While I agree with some posts saying role-playing is the most important part, it's also fun to be useful and echo knight is good for role play and usefulness. Champion works. It's not good. But it all depends on what you compare to and what the DM sends on you, champion probably will work at a lot of tables and still be fun. It's still mechanically one of the absolute worst sub classes. But yeah, I played one and had fun.
As for echo knight being complicated, it has some thinking needed in some ways sure, but it's also very clear what you get. You get a set of abilities and don't need to pick between stuff like the battle master does. Still the teleport movement and sending an echo away from you is a Great role play feature, allowing for many cool fun moments. While also being muuuuuuch better than champion. So much. People have to separate their opinion from facts, and the fact is not all classes or subclasses are equal. This doesn't mean they aren't playable like others still would argue. But you don't always have to play the absolute best class to have fun!
That said, echo knight for many reasons is one of the best fighter subclasses, it's also very fun, which is just as important. The fact that you think it sounds fun is what matters the most!
Just ask your dm how they'd rule it, and even if it doesn't work with advantage you can still send the echo to an ally being attacked, you still get the extra attack and can swap to the ally and get advantage there Instead and so on. Try it if you're allowed! And let us know how it works out :)
I don't think Champion was a bad choice at all for a sword n' board fighter who often will have advantage from Pack Tactics. Crits feel nice, and you'll land many!
The weakness of the Champion as a pure class is that it doesn't have anything in its kit which particularly takes advantage of crits... 2d8+Strength+2 isn't particularly more exciting than 1d8+Strength+2. That can be patched with some multiclassing (ranger or rogue or paladin etc.)... but you can also do that with just feats, and fighters get plenty! Fey Touched to pick up Hunter's Mark or Hex isn't bad, though without spell slots you won't be using it every combat. Poisoner is pretty good since Fighters don't have any competing Bonus Actions, but is challenged by you holding a Shield in your off hand (probably more useful for 2H weapon champions). Martial Adept will get you one use of a Battlemaster Maneuver, which isn't awful if you save it for one of your many crits to be a +2d6 hit with a special effect (and you can get another one with Superior Technique as your second champion fighting style, or with the Fighting Initiate feat).
But really, I think one real strength of the Champion that you could lean into is consistent application of the Piercer/Crusher/Slasher debuffs. Slasher provides that enemy has disadvantage on all their attacks whenever you crit them with a slashing weapon- That doesn't help your DPR, but it DOES really debuff major enemies quite severely! Piercer gives you an extra damage dice (3d8 on a crit with a rapier), so that's more aggressive but probably less useful for the group (though, the non-crit damage reroll will also improve your DPR every round). Crusher is probably the MOST offensive, since advantage for your whole party really amps damage up... but the movement effect involves a lot of decision making and isn't always helpful. If I were building a sword n' board kobold who started with +2 strength (17 str, probably 16 con I'm guessing? and rest of your points for 12 Dex and 13 Wisdom), I'd suggest:
You're never going to be the DPR king of your team with Sword and Shield. But, you can be a very effective tank and debuffer, and Champion is not a bad class for that at all. Battlemaster would have let you debuff enemies more consistently with maneuvers, but involves a lot of decisions. Champion debuffs with consistent attacks and shield shoves every round, without too many tough decisions other than when to action surge.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Two days ago you said this exact same build was for tanking and not DPR. You said the party did damage just fine, but you needed a tank.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/116125-champion-build-help#c3
Which is it, tanking or DPR?
And what happened to the stats from two days ago? Or the HAM feat the character had taken?
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That was when we still had a big party and I could focus on tanking (three of our party left because of time conflicts). Now we’re lacking in damage and that character wasn’t in game yet so I was able to change around the stats and feats.
Gotcha. That makes sense. The problem with asking which is “best” is that it’s a pretty subjective thing.
The only things that seem unchanged over the past two days are Kobold, Fighter, Strength build, and Longsword and shield. A Kobold Fighter that uses a longsword & shield is absolutely fine. If the only thing you are open to changing is it subclass, then you probably don’t need to at all. Stick with being the champ and rock socks.
If you want a fighter subclass with a little more pizazz and more to do, but without all of the bazillion choices like the Battle Master has, you might want to look at the Psi Warrior. (They’re basically Jedi.) They feel a lot like the Battle Master without having to make any choices from a bazillion options. Their powers are automatically granted when they level up without players having to choose anything. They end up with some cool options to use, but without getting overloaded with them. A sword & board Kobold Jedi sounds like a ton of fun.!
I’m just trying to get a feel for how much wiggle room there is. Lemme ask you these questions:
If you could do more DPR with a Dex build using a rapier & shield, would that be something you would consider? Or a Strength build Kobold with longsword & shield, but they’re a Barbarian or Paladin? Or a Bugbear Fighter with longsword & shield? Or a Kobold Fighter who uses a halberd instead of longsword and shield?
Which parts are intrinsic to your character, and which parts aren’t?
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For all those questions the only specific is that I remain a kobold. I chose fighter just because I assumed they were one of if not the best class for dpr. I also did Str just because really, I have no clue if Dex weapons can reach a higher dpr somehow. I think something important to me is that my main damage options be open to me at all times. What I mean by that Is I don't want to have to debate if I should spend some resource now to do something or save it for something later, an example might be the echo knights ability to make the echos (I actually don't know if there's a limit on how often they can do that) or an eldritch knights cantrips (granted they get spells and stuff but that wouldn't be my main way of killing stuff).
Edit: Also for my Asi I just gave myself two increases to Str to hit 20 and I was wondering if that was worth it for an eldritch knight (my Con is 16 and my Int is 14). I also have no clue what I should use for my cantrips, the rest of my party is made up of paladins so booming blade isnt too useful since everyone's in melee to begin with but for green-flame blade my Int is only 14 so It seems like a waste as just making two separate attacks would be better.
This is definitely true on the forums and there are a lot of complicated edge cases that have spawned a lot of heated discussions.
But at the same time most echo knights I've seen in practice just... summon an echo and make an attack and that's pretty much it and no one really has any issue. Not to outright disagree that there's a lot of nuance to the subclass, but I also think it's a little bit overstated for how many groups will utilize it. It's also complicated in a very different way than the battlemaster, you're not picking from a large list of abilities... what you get is relatively straight forward. It's just that there's a lot that can be done within that space.
Yup, this was my point too and since op is worried about picking the wrong choices, echo knight is more straight forward in that sense.
Also just because they don't want lots of choices to pick from, doesn't mean they don't want to be able to do different things.
And saying champion is as good as any other subclass is objectively wrong ;)
Strength builds suffer from needing Str and Con and heavy armor (which is a pain in the neck unless you sleep in it), and everyone wants Wis. But a Dex build means having to invest in less stuff. That’s because Dex ends up used for Attacks, AC, one of the three most important Saving Throws, and a wackton of skills. Str gets used for attacks, 1 skill… and jumping. Besides, as a Kobold you can’t use heavy weapons like the greatsword/greataxe, so you’re going to be limited to a d10 damage weapon at most anyway. (A Rapier is only slightly lower at 1d8 which is a negligible difference of 1 point of damage difference on average.)
One of the highest DPR PCs I have ever DMed for is a Dex fighter with a Longbow and sharpshooter. Of course, as a Kobold you would have to downgrade slightly to a shortbow. Which is not really an issue for the DPR (1d8 Vs. 1d6 is negligible), but the range means getting closer to melee than an archer build likes.
One of the advantages when it comes to Fighters is that almost all of their resources refresh on a short rest. Just for the sake of simplicity, if the DM does everything “by the book” most of the time, the party will be in approximately 6ish medium difficulty fights per adventuring day, and will get around 2 short rests per adventuring day on average. So, for example, a Battle Master could spend half of their superiority dice in a fight, then the other half in the next fight, then a short rest, rinse & repeat, rinse & take a long rest and do it all again tomorrow. They can spam features like crazy because if they just put their heads down on their desks for a nap they come back at almost full force. (I say “almost” because Indomitable is a long rest only resource.)
Now, I can understand about the analysis paralysis. (I used to be in sales and any salesperson can attest that the fastest way to loose a sale is to present the customer with too many options.) That was kinda why I suggested the Psi Warrior. No choices to make except when to spend a energy die. And most of their powers don’t actually burn that die unless they work, if it fails you can keep the die. At 1st level you would get 4 dice every short rest, and at 17th level it’s 12 per short rest (36/day on average!!)
But if resource management is that big of a concern for you, and you want to stick with Fighter, it doesn’t get any simpler than Champion. (Heck, my dog could probably play a Champ.)
But for DPR you could go Sorlock (Divine Soul) and spam Hex, Eldritch Blast, and Spiritual Weapon all day long and rack ‘em up.
A Bardlock would work too, College of Swords + Hexblade is a chicken dinner winner right there.
Of course, any spellcaster means managing their resource of spell slots.
However, if 0 resource Management is important to you and DPR is your aim, most Rogues can DPR like you wouldn’t believe, and the less amazing options, like Assassin, is still a contender. They have almost no resources to spend, they just do all their stuff all the time, sneak attack is ridonculous, if you go, say, Scout (for shooting), or Swashbuckler (for stabbing), or Inquisitive (for versatility) you would likely be very happy.
To be 100% honest, the highest DPR builds will require some degree of resource management, there’s just no getting around that. If you eliminate all resource management then you sacrifice some capability, it’s a trade off.
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Its hard for me to recommend anything other than Rune Knight for the large sized kobold.