"Invisible doesn't mean hidden" https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets Even in the real world. Being invisible DOES mean hidden. Unable to be visible. Bending light. Excellent camouflage. However you want to put it, it means to be hidden from sight. Also, I don't recall anywhere in the rules that invisibility looks as obvious as The Predator's cloaking ability. (I know you didn't mention it, I'm just nipping it in the bud).
In umbral sight's case, actions don't turn off the invisible effect since the darkness doesn't turn off.
I concede that once the attack has been made whether hit or miss, the ranger's location will be revealed. But as he moves after a shot, once again his location is lost.
In D&D 5E Hide is not passive effect, it's an action. Being invisible or heavily obscured doesn't make you automatically hidden, it allows you to try to hide, where you otherwise couldn't by being visible. It's the only benefit after you've become unseen hiding grant, conceal your position.
Not only hiding is the only way RAW to conceal your position, its also RAI. Being heavily obscured or invisible doesn't conceal one's position or automatically make you hidden. It requires a seperate check (which usually takes an action)
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position? @JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
Indeed. It is counter intuitive, but movement itself is not an action.
All the years I have played d&d I have assumed the dash action allows you to move up to your speed, so readying a dash was the exactly the same as readying movement. Just realised that is not the case.
LMAO. I love acted out scenes. They always give me a chuckle.
But as I linked before, no perception check pinpoints location. It similiar to spotting an unexpected something out of the ordinary. You wouldn't just spot something invisible. Breathing heavy maybe and bunch of other senses affecting things maybe. Also this dragon doesn't have:
Wolf stat block:
Keen Hearing and Smell. The wolf has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
The dragon has merely just a wisdom perception check without any focus.
The OP was about how the dragon stat block given might be defeated by the ranger. By imagining the awesome power of a dragon as we all do, if its not in the stat block, the dragon doesn't have it. Same goes by comparing to other creatures. DCs of the character and dragon abilities are simply against eachother's stat block for RAW play. Anything else is just imagination fluff against the purpose if the OP.
Interesting take. Got a ddb link? I am failing to understand how that twitter reference relates to someone "invisible" by simply being in the dark which takes no action whereas hide requires an action.
Perhaps others here know what Plaguescarred is trying to say? I would need the dndbeyond link. This is a rules and mechanics thread afterall.
@thread
I wonder what kind of responses I would get If I suggested a level 4 of this character. Extra shot, higher pb, and more hp is all he gained in the 2 levels I'm thinking. Who am I kidding? level four would certainly die..right?
LMAO. I love acted out scenes. They always give me a chuckle.
But as I linked before, no perception check pinpoints location. It similiar to spotting an unexpected something out of the ordinary. You wouldn't just spot something invisible. Breathing heavy maybe and bunch of other senses affecting things maybe. Also this dragon doesn't have:
Wolf stat block:
Keen Hearing and Smell. The wolf has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
The dragon has merely just a wisdom perception check without any focus.
The OP was about how the dragon stat block given might be defeated by the ranger. By imagining the awesome power of a dragon as we all do, if its not in the stat block, the dragon doesn't have it. Same goes by comparing to other creatures. DCs of the character and dragon abilities are simply against eachother's stat block for RAW play. Anything else is just imagination fluff against the purpose if the OP.
Irrelevant if it has Keen Hearing and Smell or not. The Dragon can smell creatures, and use it to detect location. The fact that a wolf gets advantage on smell based perception checks goes to show that other creatures can do it without advantage.
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage.
In this case, the Dragon has a special sense: Detect. It literally has a legendary action intended to do precisely this. What are 'tracks' in this case? Tracks through air currents, a trail of scent etc. It all works just fine, RAW.
Moreover, playing RAW, you can still attack creatures that you can't see, or the DM can 'guess' the direction if they decide to. It's 100% legit in that case to simply fly towards the Ranger, and use the breath weapon without even making a Perception check.
"It's not in the stat block, the dragon doesn't have it"
The Ranger doesn't have a Hearing sense in his stat block, ergo he can't hear anything.
Interesting take. Got a ddb link? I am failing to understand how that twitter reference relates to someone "invisible" by simply being in the dark which takes no action whereas hide requires an action.
Perhaps others here know what Plaguescarred is trying to say? I would need the dndbeyond link. This is a rules and mechanics thread afterall.
@thread
I wonder what kind of responses I would get If I suggested a level 4 of this character. Extra shot, higher pb, and more hp is all he gained in the 2 levels I'm thinking. Who am I kidding? level four would certainly die..right?
The lead Developper doesn't come post on DDB forums thread. I thought i was crystal clear in my explanation but i will rephrase.
You not hidden unless you take the Hide action. Being unseen wether by being invisible or heavily obscured does not make you automatically hidden. It simply make you invisible and or benefit from unseen Attacker and Target.
Ending at response #14, So far the only RAW (for fairness play with the player) effective strategy for the Dragon win I have read in your responses has been: The dragon waits to perceive an arrow using blindsight then breath attack. This particular player has protection from poison as a spell (it lasts an hour). So just in case that spell was prebattle casted, the breath attack would be halved in damage (38 dmg on a failed save) and the ranger has advantage on save. Additionally, the breath attack is a recharge 5-6.
With this strategy, its just a matter of luck rolling on the dice. The battle could still go either way. Albeit more in favor of the dragon, but the original question of "Can this level 6 solo an Ancient Green Dragon?" Is still a possibility not 100% ruled out by this strategy
RAI, I personally don't feel blindsight would detect the location of the ranger from just a mere arrow miss. Its a bit of a stretch. But as I and Kotath mentioned before, using dragon lore I strongly feel the dragon (especially a cunning green dragon) would not allow itself to be engaged in a battle it thought it might lose. It would probably take off, send minions, or always stay in an advantageous position/location.
Now, there was a question in the original post that has gone untouched: "Can this ranger even shoot with advantage while flapping his wings?". Please allow me to re-ask with slightly different wording.
Keeping in mind he's probably soaring, can this ranger even shoot with advantage while airborne?
I mostly ask this question as my 3.5 knowledge is clouding my memory on this topic.
When you say "it could go either way" you're saying the ranger has a 50/50 shot of winning. And, I'm sorry, but the math does not support that. You're overthinking this, and whatever baggage you have from 3.5 needs to go out the window. That edition came to an end 13 years ago.
The dragon does not need Blindsight to know an arrow has been fired at it and the general direction it came from. It's not blinded, and it's not helpless. In fact, assuming the environment is actual Darkness, the ranger's relative invisibility doesn't help it avoid detection. Wisdom (Perception) checks based on sight are made with disadvantage regardless. It can still hear, and that suffers no penalty unless an outside factor imposes one. Not that its Perception is necessary. Remember, unseen attackers are required to be both visually hidden and silent, and they reveal their location as soon as they attack. Even if the ranger remains functionally invisible it's relative location can still be known. (At the very least, it can be guessed and inferred.) For example, if you ever find yourself fighting an Invisible Stalker, you can still know roughly where it is. Hitting it, on the other hand, is another matter.
How you choose to describe the invisibility is also immaterial. What matters is the net effect on gameplay. Cosmetic trappings are just that.
You asked before if an aarakocra, or any flier, can shoot with advantage while flying. Why wouldn't they be able to? What rule prevents it? The Dungeon Master's Guide covers various weather conditions, such as strong winds, on page 110. Here's what it has to say.
Strong Wind
A strong wind imposes disadvantage on ranged weapon attack rolls and Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing. A strong wind also extinguishes open flames, disperses fog, and makes flying by nonmagical means nearly impossible. A flying creature in a strong wind must land at the end of its turn or fall.
A strong wind in a desert can create a sandstorm that imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
So this would impose disadvantage on ranged weapon attack rolls, such as those made with a longbow. It would also force both of them to end their turn on the ground. On the other hand, it would also give the ranger something else to actually Hide behind for when the dragon is close enough to rely on its Blindsight.
In theory, this aarakocra ranger can shoot and displace. The dragon is also capable of using its reaction, interrupting the aarakocra ranger's turn, and moving in the direction the arrow came from. This game of cat and mouse will only last so long. The Ancient Green Dragon has a higher armor class, hundreds of more hit points, a faster fly speed, and can reach the aarakocra with a melee attack at even its longest desirable distance. And a melee attack has a 99.75% chance of landing. Even something like protection from poison won't help that much.
By now, I'm sure you're wondering, "But what about the ranger?" And, fair. Let's assume a +4 Dexterity modifier, +3 proficiency bonus, +2 from the Archery fighting style, and +1 weapon for total of +10 to the attack roll. Even with advantage, they're still subtracting 5 and need an 16 or better on the D20 to hit. That means each arrow has only a 43.75% chance of connecting for 19 (1d8 + 15) piercing damage. That translates to approximately 17 DPR. And that, in turn, translates to approximately 170 damage over ten turns, or 20 arrows which is the standard allotment for a single quiver. And since the AGD has an average of 385 hit points, a ranger who can survive that long is more like to run out of ammunition.
As for like protection from poison, advantage against a DC 22 Constitution saving throw won't help much. Assuming a +2 Constitution modifier and no proficiency, that's only a 9.75% chance of passing the saving throw. So it's a safe bet they'll still take an average of 33 poison damage; which is a sizable chunk of their maybe 52 hit points. And let's not forget the DC 16 saving throw, with no advantage, to maintain the spell. If the AGD gets annoyed and decides to leave, the aarakocra ranger can't stop it.
In theory? Sure, anything is possible. In practice? No, not on your life. Maybe if the goal is trolling the dragon into giving up then your player can chalk that up as a win in their book. But they're not killing it. And the dragon, even with all these conditions favorable for this homebrewed ranger, still has the advantage. It isn't even a contest.
All the Ancient Green Dragon has to do is be patient; holding a Dash as a reaction. The second the first attack is made, the ranger's position is revealed and the dragon can use their reaction to fly 80 feet and "see" their previously unseen attacker with their 60 feet of Blindsight. They're now no more than 10 feet away, per your own preference for being within 60-90 feet. As soon as the ranger tries to fly away, the dragon gets an Opportunity Attack. And with a +15 to hit, basically anything other than a Natural 1 on the D20 will hit. It doesn't even need to rely on its Breath Weapon, but it might─just for fun.
The ranger will die. The only question now is, "How many rounds do you honestly think it'll take before they die?"
That does not quite work, activating a held action requires your reaction so it would not be able to do that and make an OP attack but if the ranger is staying within 90ft it can hold its breath attack, or it can let the ranger run and on its next move breath weapon it if it is within 60ft and if not move to where it left its blindsight and breath weapon from there. Unless the ranger can move 110ft without dashing it is toast.
The dragon can dash over, then use a legendary action to wing attack. This likely knocks the ranger prone, causing him to fall to his death. But, if he survives the fall or isn't knocked from the sky, the dragon still knows where he is now and finishes him on round two.
LMAO. I love acted out scenes. They always give me a chuckle.
But as I linked before, no perception check pinpoints location. It similiar to spotting an unexpected something out of the ordinary. You wouldn't just spot something invisible.
If all you did was reveal the direction, the dragon flying in the correct general direction will reveal the ranger when he gets within 60ft. The Dragon has Blindsense. His perception is so powerful he sees without seeing, everything, everything, within 60ft of him.
So even if he is only following a scent trail alone he's going to find the ranger when he gets close. Ranger is not safe.
Breathing heavy maybe and bunch of other senses affecting things maybe. Also this dragon doesn't have:
Wolf stat block:
Keen Hearing and Smell. The wolf has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
The dragon has merely just a wisdom perception check without any focus.
IDK what any of this is trying to say. The dragon can take legendary action perception checks to detect. Meaning he is actively scanning the environment like a normal guy spending all his actions on it, but while not having to spend his actions on it. And with a +17 to the check. Dragon perception can routinely detect invisible creatures it is so powerful. You are genuinely unaware how good a +17 perception is?
The OP was about how the dragon stat block given might be defeated by the ranger. By imagining the awesome power of a dragon as we all do, if its not in the stat block, the dragon doesn't have it. Same goes by comparing to other creatures. DCs of the character and dragon abilities are simply against eachother's stat block for RAW play. Anything else is just imagination fluff against the purpose if the OP.
We've explained how the ranger dies round 1, maybe 2. Just with RAW stat blocks.
You even said the Ranger was going to stay between 60ft and 90 ft of the dragon in your OP. You said that was his strategy. Stay between 60ft and 90ft of the dragon. Right? Well, if he detects the correct general direction he just breath Weapons you without even moving. It is a 90 ft cone. Dead Ranger, 1 action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Try it, but your puny 6th level Ranger will die and it will definitely not have enough arrows to actually kill the thing even if it managed to survive a few rounds. A standard quiver can hold 20 arrows, even if your DM allowed you to carry two at a time, that's 40 arrows. Also, as mentioned, as soon as the Ranger shot an arrow, the Dragon would know the exact location the arrow came from so your ranger better shoot all his arrows before moving. It also would not be able to use the "Hide" action since it just used the attack action. It would only be able to hide as a bonus action at 14th level, meaning that, even if its invisible, the sound the ranger is making is enough for the dragon to be able to search and spot him using Perception.
Also, the dragon has the Detect legendary action, letting him use perception to spot the ranger at the end of the Ranger's turn, knowing exactly where he is on a success (it has +17 in perception after all), it will definitely spot him after one or two legendary actions, despite disadvantage. It can't get anything less then an 18 in perception. Once that works, the dragon has enough movement to fly up to the ranger and completely rip it to shreds or use its breath weapon to tear him a new one before the ranger can even move. If you read the text further down from the stat block, you'll also see that it uses the surrounding animals as its eyes/ears and would spot the ranger coming from a mile away. It can also use Lair Actions if the ranger ever gets semi close to the ground and this is one of the smartest dragons there is, it would find a way to lure the ranger down.
Anyway, let's entertain the idea that the Dragon somehow failed all 3 legendary detect actions and somehow doesn't spot the Ranger for whatever reason and, assuming all of the arrows hit (they won't, not with a maximum of +11 to attack at level 6 with a +1 weapon, +2 archery fighting style and a +5 ability modifier), that'd be an average of 220 damage on the 40 arrows. With the +11 to attack, they need to roll a 10 or better every time so roughly a 50% chance to hit without sharpshooter. That means you're looking at an average of 110 damage on those 40 arrows if you don't consider advantage.
If you do consider advantage (and if you can somehow get it on every attack, doubtful, but whatever), that climbs up to exactly 79.75% chance to hit without sharpshooter, for an average of 175.45 dmg for all 40 shots. If you factor in Hunter's Mark and Favored Foe, that's +3.5 average damage per arrow hit and +2.5 average dmg once/round (assuming 20 rounds to fire the 40 arrows). This makes the total at 100% accuracy of 220+140+50 or 410 average dmg if all arrows hit. If they somehow manage to get advantage on every attack, not get found by the dragon and hit with 79.75% of their attacks, they'd get an average of 326.975 dmg. Still short of the necessary damage to kill the thing and your ranger would be all out of arrows now.
If he uses Sharpshooter every time, his chance to hit (with advantage) drops down to 51% chance only and to 30% chance without it. Again, assuming constant advantage is possible somehow (doubtful), total average damage from 100% accuracy climbs up to 810 but with the 51% chance to hit, this drops back down to 413.1 average damage. A little more then the needed damage, but that's assuming a perfect encounter, completely horrible detection rolls from the Dragon and it being unable to counter at all whenever the Ranger shot and it not readying an action to blast it if it ever got close.
The math says it is possible but honestly, they'll probably get annihilated before the end of the 2nd round. Math also says I can win the loto but I haven't yet. :P
Yeah, curiously we also discount the ability of the dragon to canvass the area. Even if we assume that the ranger is somehow entirely undetectable outside the 60' radius of the dragon's blind sense. A ridiculous proposal, sure. But lets assume as much. The ranger is staying 60-90' away when firing.
The dragon has a flight speed of 80'. It can dash, and then move up to 160' on its turn.
If it moves forward 30' and than circles around, it can actually scan everything within 90' of its original starting location with its blindsight. So it will for sure detect ranger-boi round one even under the silly premise that the ranger cannot be detected under any means outside blindsight. After detecting, depending how quickly he detected him, before or after his dash, he either kills him right then or next round.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
LMAO. I love acted out scenes. They always give me a chuckle.
But as I linked before, no perception check pinpoints location.
You always know the location of any creature you have detected. It's not terribly realistic, but 5e decided "pick a random square to swing at" is a horrible mechanic and made it so you very rarely have to do it.
Some rules since this is a RAW forum and not homebrew.
PHB 195 "If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
The exact location of an attacker is revealed when they make an attack whether it hits or misses.
PHB 192 "HIDE When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules in chapter 7 for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter."
The only ways to become hidden are (1) be both unseen and unheard - definition of hidden - being unheard is usually a DM call based on environmental effects - it can be either too loud to hear the creature or the creature could be inside a silence spell for example. A flying invisible creature inside a silence spell could be considered automatically hidden at DM discretion for example. (2) The creature succeeds on a stealth check opposed by the passive perception of opponents.
PHB 291 "INVISIBLE • An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Invisible creatures LOCATION is detected by any noise it makes. NOT direction, not distance, exact location. This is RAW not homebrew.
PHB 177 "HIDING The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Someone mentioned a 180 degree field of view - NOT in 5e - creatures stay alert all around so they are considered to be looking in all directions during the turn.
PHB 193 "SEARCH When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check."
PHB 177 "Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom ( Perception) score"
If passive perception can be used to notice the location of a creature attempting to hide "even if they aren't searching" - this implies that successful use of the Search action reveals the location of the hidden creature if their perception roll equals or exceeds the stealth check of the hiding creature.
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RAW:
1) The location of the ranger is always revealed whenever they attack.
2) The ranger is not hidden unless they take the hide action or the DM rules that they can not be heard. Otherwise they have to specifically use their action to attempt to move without making noise or any other clue to their current position. Just being invisible does NOT make the creature hidden. It does allow the creature to take the hide action.
3) All of these give away the location of the invisible creature not an approximation.
4) The ranger will die since they are slower than the dragon. It will eventually catch and kill the ranger since they can't escape notice.
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However, any level character with a long bow and a flying movement rate greater than 160'/round could kill an ancient green dragon by kiting it. Movement of 160' is needed so that the attacker can take an attack action and still remain out of the dash distance of the dragon. In the present example though, the ranger can NOT (RAW) remain hidden from the dragon while still attacking it and since they are slower than the dragon, the ranger will eventually be caught and killed.
So what I am pulling from the mass majority of RAI regarding definition of invisibility is that I am confusing invisbility with...actual invisibility. Otherwise the invisibility that has been described by others may be weaker than a skulk's Fallible invisibility.
Sorry if I'm still not understanding how there needs to be some sort of re-hide action in the scenario of darkness. So I propose a a new scenario putting all other aspects and all senses including blindsight, scent hearing etc aside for the time being to focus on invisibility of the official content aarakocra gloomstalker ranger's umbral sight.
Why? Because the ranger fights other creatures too and I should be having the player using it correctly.
So, the new scenerio is in non-magical darkness (enough darkness to trigger the effect). Enemy and has darkvision, vision range is unimportant for this new scenerio but let's assume both creatures are within eachother's darkvision range (umbral sight gives official aarakocra darkvision 60ft). Enemy is melee only with 5ft reach. On every attack, the ranger moves after attacking with longbow remaining in darkness the entirety. Keep in mind we are strictly focusing on sight. Not sounds or scent etc. And for the sake of peace, assume no visual clues such as a leaf blowing in the wind gets stuck on the the ranger's invisible face/beak momentarily.
Wouldn't the move be considered the action or trigger required to re-hide/become invisible again after loosing an arrow? If not, what must the ranger do to regain the invisible effect of umbral sight as he is already in darkness? Just to point out, I'm not looking for advantage/disadvantage. I am looking to findout why this invisibility would/wouldn't give away his new location.
Wouldn't the move be considered the action or trigger required to re-hide/become invisible again after loosing an arrow? If not, what must the ranger do to regain the invisible effect of umbral sight as he is already in darkness? Just to point out, I'm not looking for advantage/disadvantage. I am looking to findout why this invisibility would/wouldn't give away his new location.
The action to re-hide (resulting in location being unknown) is a successful (DC27) hide action. Which he won't be able to do before his next turn unless he has an ability to do it as a bonus action, such as a multiclassed rogue.
So what I am pulling from the mass majority of RAI regarding definition of invisibility is that I am confusing invisbility with...actual invisibility. Otherwise the invisibility that has been described by others may be weaker than a skulk's Fallible invisibility.
Sorry if I'm still not understanding how there needs to be some sort of re-hide action in the scenario of darkness. So I propose a a new scenario putting all other aspects and all senses including blindsight, scent hearing etc aside for the time being to focus on invisibility of the official content aarakocra gloomstalker ranger's umbral sight.
Why? Because the ranger fights other creatures too and I should be having the player using it correctly.
So, the new scenerio is in non-magical darkness (enough darkness to trigger the effect). Enemy and has darkvision, vision range is unimportant for this new scenerio but let's assume both creatures are within eachother's darkvision range (umbral sight gives official aarakocra darkvision 60ft). Enemy is melee only with 5ft reach. On every attack, the ranger moves after attacking with longbow remaining in darkness the entirety. Keep in mind we are strictly focusing on sight. Not sounds or scent etc. And for the sake of peace, assume no visual clues such as a leaf blowing in the wind gets stuck on the the ranger's invisible face/beak momentarily.
Wouldn't the move be considered the action or trigger required to re-hide/become invisible again after loosing an arrow? If not, what must the ranger do to regain the invisible effect of umbral sight as he is already in darkness? Just to point out, I'm not looking for advantage/disadvantage. I am looking to findout why this invisibility would/wouldn't give away his new location.
The thing is, you have to take all senses into consideration. Successfully hiding is not just about seeing the person but also any noise they may make, a rock they might inadvertently kick, a twig, rat or anything else they may step on, a leaf as you said, their breathing, their clothing/armor, their weapons, the noise their arrows make in their quiver not to mention all their other equipment (potions would be pretty audible among other things), the environment (foot prints on damp stone, dust being kicked up), etc. Its also a way for the game to balance invisibility which is already really really strong.
To be fair though, while in combat, as long as they are considered invisible, they don't really gain anything from being stealthy and/or taking the Hide action mechanically. They already get advantage on attacks since they are unseen and enemies get disadvantage. The only exception would be the enemies that don't rely on sight and use other senses but there aren't that many of those. In these cases, a successful Hide action against them would work (unless they have Blindsight). Outside of combat though, remaining silent through a successful Dex (Stealth) check allows them to sneak up on an enemy undetected and possibly get a surprise round in, something that invisibility alone cannot accomplish.
In your scenario, when the ranger shoots his arrow(s), he reveals his location and the enemy at that point knows the ranger's approximate location but he's still invisible. Sure, until the ranger takes the hide action to evade the enemy's other senses, the enemy knows the ranger's location, can target his square and try to hit him but he's still doing it at disadvantage.
Here's an interesting article I found about the pros/cons of invisibility that explains these concepts in more detail:
Sorry for the confusion. Ther was no dragons nor flying mentioned in scenerio#2. Also, I specificlally stated "non-magical darkness (enough darkness to trigger the effect)" for the scenerio's purpose. Smell aarakocra downwind? Again, specificially stated not part of the scenerio.
But you are mistaken in the assumption I'm treating the dragon in scenerio#1 as stationary, it is just that the topic wasn't directly covered. I'm glad I'm not the only one fully aware of moving creatures. I've been known for guerilla tactics vs party. They couldn't argue as they agreed that's what the enemy would do, but they hated it.
@ Pantagruel666
"The action to re-hide (resulting in location being unknown) is a successful (DC27) hide action."
That's a pretty high DC. what's it from in scenerio2? At a guess I'd say you were using the Dragon in scenerio1's passive perception but that doesn't apply for #2. Would I be correct that you meant DC(whatever the passive perception is of enemy from scenerio2)?
@ Kilthor response #38
That has been the most helpful response I have ever read. Linked, logical, on topic, and explained in a way my tired mind actually understood. A genuine thank you!
To prove it made sense to me using scenerio2:
Ranger is invisible and hidden prior to proving his presence. (essentially not in combat) Using stealth check that surpassed the enemy's passive perception, the ranger can move with care. Once he does something dumb like move at full speed, step on a twig etc, the DM should allow the enemy to do an active perception check against the previous stealth check.
If perceived, the enemy knows where the ranger is and can attack with disadvantage.
At some point, the ranger can take a hide action (if available as a bonus action, even better) by re-rollling stealth. If it beats the passive perception of the enemy, the enemy no longer knows the ranger's location. But now that the enemy knows of the ranger, it may do its own active perception check in an attempt to find him.
During at any point the ranger is invisible and hidden, any attack will give away his location allowing him to be attacked with disadvantage.
At any point the ranger is invisible and hidden and the enemy has failed an active perception check, the enemy can still attack where it thinks the ranger is with disadvantage. If ranger isn't in the location, its an automatic miss. If its a hit even with disadvantage, the ranger is no longer hidden, just invisible (enemy can't target with "see" spells and still has disadvantage on attacks against ranger.)
How did I do? Do I finally understand how invisibility works in d&d 5e?
Wouldn't the move be considered the action or trigger required to re-hide/become invisible again after loosing an arrow? If not, what must the ranger do to regain the invisible effect of umbral sight as he is already in darkness? Just to point out, I'm not looking for advantage/disadvantage. I am looking to findout why this invisibility would/wouldn't give away his new location.
No it would not, to be hidden you must specifically take the Hide action, not simply remain immobile or move while unseen.
For Umbral Sight, the ranger must do nothing more than standing in darkness to be invisible to those with darkvision, and heavily obscured to those with normal vision.
Let me put this out there for your consideration @Winter673.
Would you allow this against a player?
I always ask that question when one of my players finds something that they think breaks the game open. If they want to be able to use that ruling then things will be able to use that ruling against them. If invisibility makes you hidden for free as well as making you undetectable by any means, they better hope the BBEG cant cast invisibility themself, or worse the assassins they have hired to kill any and all opposition. (Sidebar, Ancient Green Dragons CAN cast invisibility RAW.)
I’m sorry, but unless you’re homebrewed to have infinitely powerful stats, there’s no way a level 6 character can solo an ancient dragon of any color. Heck, I doubt some 20th level characters could do it. It simply isn’t possible.
So what I am pulling from the mass majority of RAI regarding definition of invisibility is that I am confusing invisbility with...actual invisibility. Otherwise the invisibility that has been described by others may be weaker than a skulk's Fallible invisibility.
Sorry if I'm still not understanding how there needs to be some sort of re-hide action in the scenario of darkness. So I propose a a new scenario putting all other aspects and all senses including blindsight, scent hearing etc aside for the time being to focus on invisibility of the official content aarakocra gloomstalker ranger's umbral sight.
Why? Because the ranger fights other creatures too and I should be having the player using it correctly.
So, the new scenerio is in non-magical darkness (enough darkness to trigger the effect). Enemy and has darkvision, vision range is unimportant for this new scenerio but let's assume both creatures are within eachother's darkvision range (umbral sight gives official aarakocra darkvision 60ft). Enemy is melee only with 5ft reach. On every attack, the ranger moves after attacking with longbow remaining in darkness the entirety. Keep in mind we are strictly focusing on sight. Not sounds or scent etc. And for the sake of peace, assume no visual clues such as a leaf blowing in the wind gets stuck on the the ranger's invisible face/beak momentarily.
Wouldn't the move be considered the action or trigger required to re-hide/become invisible again after loosing an arrow? If not, what must the ranger do to regain the invisible effect of umbral sight as he is already in darkness? Just to point out, I'm not looking for advantage/disadvantage. I am looking to findout why this invisibility would/wouldn't give away his new location.
You are asking about RAW. What does invisibility do?
PHB 291 "INVISIBLE • An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Invisible means that you can't be seen. Even when the ranger attacks and reveals their location - they are STILL invisible. The opponent just knows where they are, they still can't see them.
RAW, unless a creature is hidden, you continue to know where they are until they take the hide action or are considered hidden.
This automatically involves ALL the other senses besides sight with an invisible creature. In the rangers, case they are invisible but it is very difficult to move without making any noise or leaving any trace of your passage. A stealth check as a result of a Hide action indicates how successful the character is at hiding signs of their presence. If a character is invisible and succeeds at hiding then they move with sufficient stealth that opponents lose track of where they are located. Otherwise, the location of the creature remains known BUT they still can't see them which may result in disadvantage on attack rolls while the ranger may have advantage if they can see the opponent. If neither can see each other (two invisible creatures for example) then their is neither advantage nor disadvantage on the attack rolls since they cancel.
Finally, if a creature naturally moves silently enough without leaving trace of its passage a DM could decide that the creature is automatically hidden without making a hide check (this would never really apply to a PC unless they were invisible, in a silence spell [or a very noisy area where hearing isn't effective] and either flying or on a hard surface so that there are no traces of their passage). Hidden is defined as unseen and unheard. An invisible stalker for example is both invisible and made of elemental air. If the DM decides that there is little or no noise or wind from the creature's passage then the DM could decide that the invisible stalker remains hidden without making a hide check but a DM could also decide that the swirling wind of the elemental can make both noise and air currents that can be sensed giving away its location unless it hides ... so I could see the ruling go either way depending on the DM.
Anyway, knowing where a creature is located is NOT the same as being able to see them - their location can be known even if they are invisible. The default in 5e appears to be that you are aware of the location of creatures that you might be able to sense (see and hear) unless they make a stealth check.
In D&D 5E Hide is not passive effect, it's an action. Being invisible or heavily obscured doesn't make you automatically hidden, it allows you to try to hide, where you otherwise couldn't by being visible. It's the only benefit after you've become unseen hiding grant, conceal your position.
Not only hiding is the only way RAW to conceal your position, its also RAI. Being heavily obscured or invisible doesn't conceal one's position or automatically make you hidden. It requires a seperate check (which usually takes an action)
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position?
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/536686682213744642?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^705947031362281473|twgr^|twcon^s3_&ref_url=https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-hidden-and-hide-mean-took-the-hide-action-or-neither-seen-nor-heard-well-enough-to-locate/
All the years I have played d&d I have assumed the dash action allows you to move up to your speed, so readying a dash was the exactly the same as readying movement. Just realised that is not the case.
@Sanvael
LMAO. I love acted out scenes. They always give me a chuckle.
But as I linked before, no perception check pinpoints location. It similiar to spotting an unexpected something out of the ordinary. You wouldn't just spot something invisible. Breathing heavy maybe and bunch of other senses affecting things maybe. Also this dragon doesn't have:
Wolf stat block:
Keen Hearing and Smell. The wolf has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
The dragon has merely just a wisdom perception check without any focus.
The OP was about how the dragon stat block given might be defeated by the ranger. By imagining the awesome power of a dragon as we all do, if its not in the stat block, the dragon doesn't have it. Same goes by comparing to other creatures. DCs of the character and dragon abilities are simply against eachother's stat block for RAW play. Anything else is just imagination fluff against the purpose if the OP.
@Plaguescarred
Interesting take. Got a ddb link? I am failing to understand how that twitter reference relates to someone "invisible" by simply being in the dark which takes no action whereas hide requires an action.
Perhaps others here know what Plaguescarred is trying to say? I would need the dndbeyond link. This is a rules and mechanics thread afterall.
@thread
I wonder what kind of responses I would get If I suggested a level 4 of this character. Extra shot, higher pb, and more hp is all he gained in the 2 levels I'm thinking. Who am I kidding? level four would certainly die..right?
Irrelevant if it has Keen Hearing and Smell or not. The Dragon can smell creatures, and use it to detect location. The fact that a wolf gets advantage on smell based perception checks goes to show that other creatures can do it without advantage.
invisible
In this case, the Dragon has a special sense: Detect. It literally has a legendary action intended to do precisely this. What are 'tracks' in this case? Tracks through air currents, a trail of scent etc. It all works just fine, RAW.
Moreover, playing RAW, you can still attack creatures that you can't see, or the DM can 'guess' the direction if they decide to. It's 100% legit in that case to simply fly towards the Ranger, and use the breath weapon without even making a Perception check.
"It's not in the stat block, the dragon doesn't have it"
The Ranger doesn't have a Hearing sense in his stat block, ergo he can't hear anything.
The lead Developper doesn't come post on DDB forums thread. I thought i was crystal clear in my explanation but i will rephrase.
You not hidden unless you take the Hide action. Being unseen wether by being invisible or heavily obscured does not make you automatically hidden. It simply make you invisible and or benefit from unseen Attacker and Target.
Here's another Q&A with the Dev that specifically address invisible vs hidden https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/684181987150594048?s=20
@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise.
When you say "it could go either way" you're saying the ranger has a 50/50 shot of winning. And, I'm sorry, but the math does not support that. You're overthinking this, and whatever baggage you have from 3.5 needs to go out the window. That edition came to an end 13 years ago.
The dragon does not need Blindsight to know an arrow has been fired at it and the general direction it came from. It's not blinded, and it's not helpless. In fact, assuming the environment is actual Darkness, the ranger's relative invisibility doesn't help it avoid detection. Wisdom (Perception) checks based on sight are made with disadvantage regardless. It can still hear, and that suffers no penalty unless an outside factor imposes one. Not that its Perception is necessary. Remember, unseen attackers are required to be both visually hidden and silent, and they reveal their location as soon as they attack. Even if the ranger remains functionally invisible it's relative location can still be known. (At the very least, it can be guessed and inferred.) For example, if you ever find yourself fighting an Invisible Stalker, you can still know roughly where it is. Hitting it, on the other hand, is another matter.
How you choose to describe the invisibility is also immaterial. What matters is the net effect on gameplay. Cosmetic trappings are just that.
You asked before if an aarakocra, or any flier, can shoot with advantage while flying. Why wouldn't they be able to? What rule prevents it? The Dungeon Master's Guide covers various weather conditions, such as strong winds, on page 110. Here's what it has to say.
So this would impose disadvantage on ranged weapon attack rolls, such as those made with a longbow. It would also force both of them to end their turn on the ground. On the other hand, it would also give the ranger something else to actually Hide behind for when the dragon is close enough to rely on its Blindsight.
In theory, this aarakocra ranger can shoot and displace. The dragon is also capable of using its reaction, interrupting the aarakocra ranger's turn, and moving in the direction the arrow came from. This game of cat and mouse will only last so long. The Ancient Green Dragon has a higher armor class, hundreds of more hit points, a faster fly speed, and can reach the aarakocra with a melee attack at even its longest desirable distance. And a melee attack has a 99.75% chance of landing. Even something like protection from poison won't help that much.
By now, I'm sure you're wondering, "But what about the ranger?" And, fair. Let's assume a +4 Dexterity modifier, +3 proficiency bonus, +2 from the Archery fighting style, and +1 weapon for total of +10 to the attack roll. Even with advantage, they're still subtracting 5 and need an 16 or better on the D20 to hit. That means each arrow has only a 43.75% chance of connecting for 19 (1d8 + 15) piercing damage. That translates to approximately 17 DPR. And that, in turn, translates to approximately 170 damage over ten turns, or 20 arrows which is the standard allotment for a single quiver. And since the AGD has an average of 385 hit points, a ranger who can survive that long is more like to run out of ammunition.
As for like protection from poison, advantage against a DC 22 Constitution saving throw won't help much. Assuming a +2 Constitution modifier and no proficiency, that's only a 9.75% chance of passing the saving throw. So it's a safe bet they'll still take an average of 33 poison damage; which is a sizable chunk of their maybe 52 hit points. And let's not forget the DC 16 saving throw, with no advantage, to maintain the spell. If the AGD gets annoyed and decides to leave, the aarakocra ranger can't stop it.
In theory? Sure, anything is possible. In practice? No, not on your life. Maybe if the goal is trolling the dragon into giving up then your player can chalk that up as a win in their book. But they're not killing it. And the dragon, even with all these conditions favorable for this homebrewed ranger, still has the advantage. It isn't even a contest.
The dragon can dash over, then use a legendary action to wing attack. This likely knocks the ranger prone, causing him to fall to his death. But, if he survives the fall or isn't knocked from the sky, the dragon still knows where he is now and finishes him on round two.
If all you did was reveal the direction, the dragon flying in the correct general direction will reveal the ranger when he gets within 60ft. The Dragon has Blindsense. His perception is so powerful he sees without seeing, everything, everything, within 60ft of him.
So even if he is only following a scent trail alone he's going to find the ranger when he gets close. Ranger is not safe.
IDK what any of this is trying to say. The dragon can take legendary action perception checks to detect. Meaning he is actively scanning the environment like a normal guy spending all his actions on it, but while not having to spend his actions on it. And with a +17 to the check. Dragon perception can routinely detect invisible creatures it is so powerful. You are genuinely unaware how good a +17 perception is?
We've explained how the ranger dies round 1, maybe 2. Just with RAW stat blocks.
You even said the Ranger was going to stay between 60ft and 90 ft of the dragon in your OP. You said that was his strategy. Stay between 60ft and 90ft of the dragon. Right? Well, if he detects the correct general direction he just breath Weapons you without even moving. It is a 90 ft cone. Dead Ranger, 1 action.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Try it, but your puny 6th level Ranger will die and it will definitely not have enough arrows to actually kill the thing even if it managed to survive a few rounds. A standard quiver can hold 20 arrows, even if your DM allowed you to carry two at a time, that's 40 arrows. Also, as mentioned, as soon as the Ranger shot an arrow, the Dragon would know the exact location the arrow came from so your ranger better shoot all his arrows before moving. It also would not be able to use the "Hide" action since it just used the attack action. It would only be able to hide as a bonus action at 14th level, meaning that, even if its invisible, the sound the ranger is making is enough for the dragon to be able to search and spot him using Perception.
Also, the dragon has the Detect legendary action, letting him use perception to spot the ranger at the end of the Ranger's turn, knowing exactly where he is on a success (it has +17 in perception after all), it will definitely spot him after one or two legendary actions, despite disadvantage. It can't get anything less then an 18 in perception. Once that works, the dragon has enough movement to fly up to the ranger and completely rip it to shreds or use its breath weapon to tear him a new one before the ranger can even move. If you read the text further down from the stat block, you'll also see that it uses the surrounding animals as its eyes/ears and would spot the ranger coming from a mile away. It can also use Lair Actions if the ranger ever gets semi close to the ground and this is one of the smartest dragons there is, it would find a way to lure the ranger down.
Anyway, let's entertain the idea that the Dragon somehow failed all 3 legendary detect actions and somehow doesn't spot the Ranger for whatever reason and, assuming all of the arrows hit (they won't, not with a maximum of +11 to attack at level 6 with a +1 weapon, +2 archery fighting style and a +5 ability modifier), that'd be an average of 220 damage on the 40 arrows. With the +11 to attack, they need to roll a 10 or better every time so roughly a 50% chance to hit without sharpshooter. That means you're looking at an average of 110 damage on those 40 arrows if you don't consider advantage.
If you do consider advantage (and if you can somehow get it on every attack, doubtful, but whatever), that climbs up to exactly 79.75% chance to hit without sharpshooter, for an average of 175.45 dmg for all 40 shots. If you factor in Hunter's Mark and Favored Foe, that's +3.5 average damage per arrow hit and +2.5 average dmg once/round (assuming 20 rounds to fire the 40 arrows). This makes the total at 100% accuracy of 220+140+50 or 410 average dmg if all arrows hit. If they somehow manage to get advantage on every attack, not get found by the dragon and hit with 79.75% of their attacks, they'd get an average of 326.975 dmg. Still short of the necessary damage to kill the thing and your ranger would be all out of arrows now.
If he uses Sharpshooter every time, his chance to hit (with advantage) drops down to 51% chance only and to 30% chance without it. Again, assuming constant advantage is possible somehow (doubtful), total average damage from 100% accuracy climbs up to 810 but with the 51% chance to hit, this drops back down to 413.1 average damage. A little more then the needed damage, but that's assuming a perfect encounter, completely horrible detection rolls from the Dragon and it being unable to counter at all whenever the Ranger shot and it not readying an action to blast it if it ever got close.
The math says it is possible but honestly, they'll probably get annihilated before the end of the 2nd round. Math also says I can win the loto but I haven't yet. :P
Yeah, curiously we also discount the ability of the dragon to canvass the area. Even if we assume that the ranger is somehow entirely undetectable outside the 60' radius of the dragon's blind sense. A ridiculous proposal, sure. But lets assume as much. The ranger is staying 60-90' away when firing.
The dragon has a flight speed of 80'. It can dash, and then move up to 160' on its turn.
If it moves forward 30' and than circles around, it can actually scan everything within 90' of its original starting location with its blindsight. So it will for sure detect ranger-boi round one even under the silly premise that the ranger cannot be detected under any means outside blindsight. After detecting, depending how quickly he detected him, before or after his dash, he either kills him right then or next round.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You always know the location of any creature you have detected. It's not terribly realistic, but 5e decided "pick a random square to swing at" is a horrible mechanic and made it so you very rarely have to do it.
Some rules since this is a RAW forum and not homebrew.
PHB 195 "If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
The exact location of an attacker is revealed when they make an attack whether it hits or misses.
PHB 192 "HIDE
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules in chapter 7 for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter."
The only ways to become hidden are (1) be both unseen and unheard - definition of hidden - being unheard is usually a DM call based on environmental effects - it can be either too loud to hear the creature or the creature could be inside a silence spell for example. A flying invisible creature inside a silence spell could be considered automatically hidden at DM discretion for example. (2) The creature succeeds on a stealth check opposed by the passive perception of opponents.
PHB 291 "INVISIBLE
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Invisible creatures LOCATION is detected by any noise it makes. NOT direction, not distance, exact location. This is RAW not homebrew.
PHB 177 "HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total
is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase.
An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Someone mentioned a 180 degree field of view - NOT in 5e - creatures stay alert all around so they are considered to be looking in all directions during the turn.
PHB 193 "SEARCH
When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check."
PHB 177 "Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom ( Perception) score"
If passive perception can be used to notice the location of a creature attempting to hide "even if they aren't searching" - this implies that successful use of the Search action reveals the location of the hidden creature if their perception roll equals or exceeds the stealth check of the hiding creature.
-----
RAW:
1) The location of the ranger is always revealed whenever they attack.
2) The ranger is not hidden unless they take the hide action or the DM rules that they can not be heard. Otherwise they have to specifically use their action to attempt to move without making noise or any other clue to their current position. Just being invisible does NOT make the creature hidden. It does allow the creature to take the hide action.
3) All of these give away the location of the invisible creature not an approximation.
4) The ranger will die since they are slower than the dragon. It will eventually catch and kill the ranger since they can't escape notice.
----------
However, any level character with a long bow and a flying movement rate greater than 160'/round could kill an ancient green dragon by kiting it. Movement of 160' is needed so that the attacker can take an attack action and still remain out of the dash distance of the dragon. In the present example though, the ranger can NOT (RAW) remain hidden from the dragon while still attacking it and since they are slower than the dragon, the ranger will eventually be caught and killed.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/skulk
So what I am pulling from the mass majority of RAI regarding definition of invisibility is that I am confusing invisbility with...actual invisibility. Otherwise the invisibility that has been described by others may be weaker than a skulk's Fallible invisibility.
Sorry if I'm still not understanding how there needs to be some sort of re-hide action in the scenario of darkness. So I propose a a new scenario putting all other aspects and all senses including blindsight, scent hearing etc aside for the time being to focus on invisibility of the official content aarakocra gloomstalker ranger's umbral sight.
Why? Because the ranger fights other creatures too and I should be having the player using it correctly.
So, the new scenerio is in non-magical darkness (enough darkness to trigger the effect). Enemy and has darkvision, vision range is unimportant for this new scenerio but let's assume both creatures are within eachother's darkvision range (umbral sight gives official aarakocra darkvision 60ft). Enemy is melee only with 5ft reach. On every attack, the ranger moves after attacking with longbow remaining in darkness the entirety. Keep in mind we are strictly focusing on sight. Not sounds or scent etc. And for the sake of peace, assume no visual clues such as a leaf blowing in the wind gets stuck on the the ranger's invisible face/beak momentarily.
Wouldn't the move be considered the action or trigger required to re-hide/become invisible again after loosing an arrow? If not, what must the ranger do to regain the invisible effect of umbral sight as he is already in darkness? Just to point out, I'm not looking for advantage/disadvantage. I am looking to findout why this invisibility would/wouldn't give away his new location.
The action to re-hide (resulting in location being unknown) is a successful (DC27) hide action. Which he won't be able to do before his next turn unless he has an ability to do it as a bonus action, such as a multiclassed rogue.
The thing is, you have to take all senses into consideration. Successfully hiding is not just about seeing the person but also any noise they may make, a rock they might inadvertently kick, a twig, rat or anything else they may step on, a leaf as you said, their breathing, their clothing/armor, their weapons, the noise their arrows make in their quiver not to mention all their other equipment (potions would be pretty audible among other things), the environment (foot prints on damp stone, dust being kicked up), etc. Its also a way for the game to balance invisibility which is already really really strong.
There's a nice section in the PHB about hiding in general a bit further down, just after the "Initiative" section:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/using-ability-scores#Stealth
To be fair though, while in combat, as long as they are considered invisible, they don't really gain anything from being stealthy and/or taking the Hide action mechanically. They already get advantage on attacks since they are unseen and enemies get disadvantage. The only exception would be the enemies that don't rely on sight and use other senses but there aren't that many of those. In these cases, a successful Hide action against them would work (unless they have Blindsight). Outside of combat though, remaining silent through a successful Dex (Stealth) check allows them to sneak up on an enemy undetected and possibly get a surprise round in, something that invisibility alone cannot accomplish.
In your scenario, when the ranger shoots his arrow(s), he reveals his location and the enemy at that point knows the ranger's approximate location but he's still invisible. Sure, until the ranger takes the hide action to evade the enemy's other senses, the enemy knows the ranger's location, can target his square and try to hit him but he's still doing it at disadvantage.
Here's an interesting article I found about the pros/cons of invisibility that explains these concepts in more detail:
https://dmdavid.com/tag/how-well-do-you-understand-invisibility-in-dungeons-dragons/
@ Kotath
Sorry for the confusion. Ther was no dragons nor flying mentioned in scenerio#2. Also, I specificlally stated "non-magical darkness (enough darkness to trigger the effect)" for the scenerio's purpose. Smell aarakocra downwind? Again, specificially stated not part of the scenerio.
But you are mistaken in the assumption I'm treating the dragon in scenerio#1 as stationary, it is just that the topic wasn't directly covered. I'm glad I'm not the only one fully aware of moving creatures. I've been known for guerilla tactics vs party. They couldn't argue as they agreed that's what the enemy would do, but they hated it.
@ Pantagruel666
"The action to re-hide (resulting in location being unknown) is a successful (DC27) hide action."
That's a pretty high DC. what's it from in scenerio2? At a guess I'd say you were using the Dragon in scenerio1's passive perception but that doesn't apply for #2. Would I be correct that you meant DC(whatever the passive perception is of enemy from scenerio2)?
@ Kilthor response #38
That has been the most helpful response I have ever read. Linked, logical, on topic, and explained in a way my tired mind actually understood. A genuine thank you!
To prove it made sense to me using scenerio2:
Ranger is invisible and hidden prior to proving his presence. (essentially not in combat) Using stealth check that surpassed the enemy's passive perception, the ranger can move with care. Once he does something dumb like move at full speed, step on a twig etc, the DM should allow the enemy to do an active perception check against the previous stealth check.
If perceived, the enemy knows where the ranger is and can attack with disadvantage.
At some point, the ranger can take a hide action (if available as a bonus action, even better) by re-rollling stealth. If it beats the passive perception of the enemy, the enemy no longer knows the ranger's location. But now that the enemy knows of the ranger, it may do its own active perception check in an attempt to find him.
During at any point the ranger is invisible and hidden, any attack will give away his location allowing him to be attacked with disadvantage.
At any point the ranger is invisible and hidden and the enemy has failed an active perception check, the enemy can still attack where it thinks the ranger is with disadvantage. If ranger isn't in the location, its an automatic miss. If its a hit even with disadvantage, the ranger is no longer hidden, just invisible (enemy can't target with "see" spells and still has disadvantage on attacks against ranger.)
How did I do? Do I finally understand how invisibility works in d&d 5e?
No it would not, to be hidden you must specifically take the Hide action, not simply remain immobile or move while unseen.
For Umbral Sight, the ranger must do nothing more than standing in darkness to be invisible to those with darkvision, and heavily obscured to those with normal vision.
Let me put this out there for your consideration @Winter673.
Would you allow this against a player?
I always ask that question when one of my players finds something that they think breaks the game open. If they want to be able to use that ruling then things will be able to use that ruling against them. If invisibility makes you hidden for free as well as making you undetectable by any means, they better hope the BBEG cant cast invisibility themself, or worse the assassins they have hired to kill any and all opposition. (Sidebar, Ancient Green Dragons CAN cast invisibility RAW.)
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I’m sorry, but unless you’re homebrewed to have infinitely powerful stats, there’s no way a level 6 character can solo an ancient dragon of any color. Heck, I doubt some 20th level characters could do it. It simply isn’t possible.
You are asking about RAW. What does invisibility do?
PHB 291 "INVISIBLE
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Invisible means that you can't be seen. Even when the ranger attacks and reveals their location - they are STILL invisible. The opponent just knows where they are, they still can't see them.
RAW, unless a creature is hidden, you continue to know where they are until they take the hide action or are considered hidden.
This automatically involves ALL the other senses besides sight with an invisible creature. In the rangers, case they are invisible but it is very difficult to move without making any noise or leaving any trace of your passage. A stealth check as a result of a Hide action indicates how successful the character is at hiding signs of their presence. If a character is invisible and succeeds at hiding then they move with sufficient stealth that opponents lose track of where they are located. Otherwise, the location of the creature remains known BUT they still can't see them which may result in disadvantage on attack rolls while the ranger may have advantage if they can see the opponent. If neither can see each other (two invisible creatures for example) then their is neither advantage nor disadvantage on the attack rolls since they cancel.
Finally, if a creature naturally moves silently enough without leaving trace of its passage a DM could decide that the creature is automatically hidden without making a hide check (this would never really apply to a PC unless they were invisible, in a silence spell [or a very noisy area where hearing isn't effective] and either flying or on a hard surface so that there are no traces of their passage). Hidden is defined as unseen and unheard. An invisible stalker for example is both invisible and made of elemental air. If the DM decides that there is little or no noise or wind from the creature's passage then the DM could decide that the invisible stalker remains hidden without making a hide check but a DM could also decide that the swirling wind of the elemental can make both noise and air currents that can be sensed giving away its location unless it hides ... so I could see the ruling go either way depending on the DM.
Anyway, knowing where a creature is located is NOT the same as being able to see them - their location can be known even if they are invisible. The default in 5e appears to be that you are aware of the location of creatures that you might be able to sense (see and hear) unless they make a stealth check.