Got a potential issue. I have a player, level 13 artificier. Has proficiency with firearms.
He has a +12 (now 13) to attack rolls. He deals 2d8+8 piercing damage and then follows up with an arcane jolt. Doing 2d8 extra. In a fight with a dragon he knocked off 39 HP easily. That's just ONE round.
I hate the rule, but I have thinking of bringing misfire into my campaign because I understand it. The thing is revolvers don't have that rule, but that can be overruled. The problem is his attack bonus. +13.
In order to make misfire relevant for him I'd have to make it a stupid number 15 let's say. Which is ridiculous. Now tbf, he dropped to 0 HP twice in the fight, so he isn't all that, but that DPS!
I'm curious, I don't think it does, is misfire directly influenced by your dice roll before modifiers are added?
So let's say he has 13 to bonus. I make the misfire 3. His dice rolls a 2, so 15 in total. Would misfire apply because of the direct dice roll?
Any ideas to deal with this? Is it something to worry about?
It's also a magical gun he infused himself that doesn't need ammo xD.
The weapon's Misfire rating refers to the number on the die, before the attack bonus is added. So yes, if he has +13 to hit, and rolls a 2 for a total of 15, that would be a misfire on a weapon with Misfire rating of 3.
A couple other things jumped out at me here... I think Arcane Jolt is 2d6, not 2d8? I don't have Tasha's here in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong?
Also, can you clarify how the math adds up on the attack and damage bonuses? I assume +5 from ability score, in addition to +5 from proficiency, and +2 from the infusion... where's the other +1 coming from? (Infusion can only be done to nonmagical weapons, so if it was a +1 magic weapon to start with, it shouldn't have been eligible for infusion... although I'm speculating there.)
Yes you're right it's 2d6 mistake there. He gained an extra point because he bought an upgrade to the revolver. I suppose that's me asking for trouble but he really wanted it xD.
Yes you're right it's 2d6 mistake there. He gained an extra point because he bought an upgrade to the revolver. I suppose that's me asking for trouble but he really wanted it xD.
I get the "he really wanted it" pressure... but basically, what your player did was take an already-OP weapon, and gave it benefits of both the Enhanced Weapon and Repeating Shot infusions at the same time, which shouldn't have been possible (because there's a 1-infusion limit, and you can't infuse magical weapons). Not that he was trying to cheat or anything- more likely he got really excited over the possibilities and things went a little too far. Now it sounds like that's kind of out-shining the rest of the party, or causing mechanical difficulties with the encounter balance, which makes sense because it was not really supposed to happen. If you can't find a reasonable way to undo that by talking to the player, then I guess your choices are to either take the weapon away, or make sure the rest of the party is similarly geared so things are at least balanced again.
Also just in general, the firearms in the player's handbook are really not balanced for general play in comparison to everything else. The unofficial alternate firearms from the Gunslinger subclass (from Critical Role) with the Misfire mechanic, are better for use as a character's main weapon. Yes, I know the PHB revolver is "more realistic" in comparison to crossbows, but in this case "more realistic" is in the context of "the thing that made crossbows obsolete." So putting that side-by-side with players who are using the standard weapon list is a bit unbalanced.
You already mentioned that you're open to updating your rules for firearms. You could always rule that the PHB firearms are such complex devices that they qualify as inherently magical (because "sufficiently advanced technology," right?) to trigger the restriction against infusions, and switch to something new that's more balanced but open for infusions.
Ah, you gave him the Modern firearm. Well, at the risk of being blunt, there's your problem right there. The Modern ones are pretty OP for a typical D&D game. As was said above, the Critical Role firearms table is better balanced for typical D&D play. Misfire is not anyone's favorite rule, for obvious reasons, but it does help balance guns, and shouldn't be particularly taxing on an Artificer.
Idk why 38 damage in a round is a big deal at that level. My level 15 horizon walker ranger/psi warrior fighter doesn't average a whole lot more than that per round, and whatever they're fighting at that level should be able to take it in a balanced encounter.
I'm personally of the opinion that the solution isn't to weaken your player... they clearly already go down during combat, and 39 damage per round for a martial character at level 13 isn't super impressive or anything. I also generally dislike misfire on firearms outside of the homebrew Gunslinger subclass, since that subclass specifically has abilities and features that tie into the misfire feature... it's balanced for that specific subclass, and you either need to give those subclass features to other classes that use firearms, or otherwise adjust how they work in some way.
I'd say if you want to keep challenging your players, start dropping enemies with higher HP or AC. If dragon battle is already trivial for them, then that's a great opportunity to start using some of the fun, weird, and interesting creatures you might have been afraid to use in the past.
Dragons should be some of the hardest creatures to catch and kill.
They fly, some cast spells, shape change, hire troops, very experienced, very smart, and quite cunning. They would work hard to never be caught but if they were they would make formidable foes to ever hide from if they escaped alive.
How many towns have been razed because some thief stole from a dragon?
All modern firearms misfire for one reason or another. Normally this just results in a gun not firing. Bad ammo. But once in a rare very rare circumstance it could blow up causing damage to the user.
I have had more misfires with older designs than new ones. Like matchlocks and flintlocks. They just fail to fire. Modern semi autos are the only ones that could possibly blow up in your hand. A weak cartridge does not sent a bullet all the way out of the barrel and the next one run into it in the barrel. This is very very very very rare. Normally the bullet just pushes the stuck one out ahead of it. Even revolvers have troubles with rounds not going off.
As for in game. If the player rolls a nat 1 then have them roll a d100 and on a nat 1 the gun gets stuck and needs a 10 minute turn to clear it. Other than that its just a miss fire and the next use everything is fine. If the player rolls two nat 1's in a row on the attack then the gun goes boom and the player takes 1d10 in damage.
Modern semi autos are the only ones that could possibly blow up in your hand.
Uhm, no. All firearms can potentially blow up due to the fact that they are a contianer packed with explosives.
That said, back to OP, others have already gon over the problem with the firearm itself so I won't go into that. But as TransmorpherDDS mentioned, there are a lot of other tricks you can pull. Higher AC and more HP ae the obvious ones, resitsances and immunities are another. Don't forget cover as well. Also, make sure the enemies fight smart using traps, ambushes and actual tactics. As you probably know, due to the action economy a single monster will always be at a disadvantage against multiple PCs. So give the dragon a few minions to help even things out. You might want to look into Matt Colville's mooks for that.
Another thing to do is of course to make it more difficult for the Artificer to use their firearm. Maybe the fight takes place in a room filled with lots of flammable material. Might not want to chuck around fireballs and and bullets in there... Enemies could also use abilities such as Darkness or Blind to make it more difficult for the party. Or just have a few enemies charge the Artificer. Ranged attacks when you are in melee are always at a disadvantage.
Bowstrings can snap, swords can become blunted, and spear shafts can break. If you're going to institute critical fumble rules, you shouldn't single out a single weapon, they should be something that applies to all weapons.
And quite honestly there's a reason that 5E doesn't have fumble rules. And as others have already said, 39 damage is not impressive output at 13th level.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
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Hi there.
Got a potential issue. I have a player, level 13 artificier. Has proficiency with firearms.
He has a +12 (now 13) to attack rolls. He deals 2d8+8 piercing damage and then follows up with an arcane jolt. Doing 2d8 extra. In a fight with a dragon he knocked off 39 HP easily. That's just ONE round.
I hate the rule, but I have thinking of bringing misfire into my campaign because I understand it. The thing is revolvers don't have that rule, but that can be overruled. The problem is his attack bonus. +13.
In order to make misfire relevant for him I'd have to make it a stupid number 15 let's say. Which is ridiculous. Now tbf, he dropped to 0 HP twice in the fight, so he isn't all that, but that DPS!
I'm curious, I don't think it does, is misfire directly influenced by your dice roll before modifiers are added?
So let's say he has 13 to bonus. I make the misfire 3. His dice rolls a 2, so 15 in total. Would misfire apply because of the direct dice roll?
Any ideas to deal with this? Is it something to worry about?
It's also a magical gun he infused himself that doesn't need ammo xD.
The weapon's Misfire rating refers to the number on the die, before the attack bonus is added. So yes, if he has +13 to hit, and rolls a 2 for a total of 15, that would be a misfire on a weapon with Misfire rating of 3.
A couple other things jumped out at me here... I think Arcane Jolt is 2d6, not 2d8? I don't have Tasha's here in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong?
Also, can you clarify how the math adds up on the attack and damage bonuses? I assume +5 from ability score, in addition to +5 from proficiency, and +2 from the infusion... where's the other +1 coming from? (Infusion can only be done to nonmagical weapons, so if it was a +1 magic weapon to start with, it shouldn't have been eligible for infusion... although I'm speculating there.)
Yes you're right it's 2d6 mistake there. He gained an extra point because he bought an upgrade to the revolver. I suppose that's me asking for trouble but he really wanted it xD.
Yes you're right it's 2d6 mistake there. He gained an extra point because he bought an upgrade to the revolver. I suppose that's me asking for trouble but he really wanted it xD.
I get the "he really wanted it" pressure... but basically, what your player did was take an already-OP weapon, and gave it benefits of both the Enhanced Weapon and Repeating Shot infusions at the same time, which shouldn't have been possible (because there's a 1-infusion limit, and you can't infuse magical weapons). Not that he was trying to cheat or anything- more likely he got really excited over the possibilities and things went a little too far. Now it sounds like that's kind of out-shining the rest of the party, or causing mechanical difficulties with the encounter balance, which makes sense because it was not really supposed to happen. If you can't find a reasonable way to undo that by talking to the player, then I guess your choices are to either take the weapon away, or make sure the rest of the party is similarly geared so things are at least balanced again.
Also just in general, the firearms in the player's handbook are really not balanced for general play in comparison to everything else. The unofficial alternate firearms from the Gunslinger subclass (from Critical Role) with the Misfire mechanic, are better for use as a character's main weapon. Yes, I know the PHB revolver is "more realistic" in comparison to crossbows, but in this case "more realistic" is in the context of "the thing that made crossbows obsolete." So putting that side-by-side with players who are using the standard weapon list is a bit unbalanced.
You already mentioned that you're open to updating your rules for firearms. You could always rule that the PHB firearms are such complex devices that they qualify as inherently magical (because "sufficiently advanced technology," right?) to trigger the restriction against infusions, and switch to something new that's more balanced but open for infusions.
Ah, you gave him the Modern firearm. Well, at the risk of being blunt, there's your problem right there. The Modern ones are pretty OP for a typical D&D game. As was said above, the Critical Role firearms table is better balanced for typical D&D play. Misfire is not anyone's favorite rule, for obvious reasons, but it does help balance guns, and shouldn't be particularly taxing on an Artificer.
Idk why 38 damage in a round is a big deal at that level. My level 15 horizon walker ranger/psi warrior fighter doesn't average a whole lot more than that per round, and whatever they're fighting at that level should be able to take it in a balanced encounter.
If it is one attack a round, then 2d8+2d6+8 has a MAXIMUM of 36, with an average of 24. This isn't high at all for level 13.
The character is using the Battle Smith subclass, which gets Extra Attack at level 5, so they are doing 2 attacks per round.
The OP said 39 in one round, not one hit. That's pretty ordinary for that level, if a little under.
Keep in mind that they can only use their Arcane Jolt a total number of times equal to their Int mod per day, and only 1ce/turn.
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I'm personally of the opinion that the solution isn't to weaken your player... they clearly already go down during combat, and 39 damage per round for a martial character at level 13 isn't super impressive or anything. I also generally dislike misfire on firearms outside of the homebrew Gunslinger subclass, since that subclass specifically has abilities and features that tie into the misfire feature... it's balanced for that specific subclass, and you either need to give those subclass features to other classes that use firearms, or otherwise adjust how they work in some way.
I'd say if you want to keep challenging your players, start dropping enemies with higher HP or AC. If dragon battle is already trivial for them, then that's a great opportunity to start using some of the fun, weird, and interesting creatures you might have been afraid to use in the past.
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Dragons should be some of the hardest creatures to catch and kill.
They fly, some cast spells, shape change, hire troops, very experienced, very smart, and quite cunning. They would work hard to never be caught but if they were they would make formidable foes to ever hide from if they escaped alive.
How many towns have been razed because some thief stole from a dragon?
Back to the gun problem.
All modern firearms misfire for one reason or another. Normally this just results in a gun not firing. Bad ammo. But once in a rare very rare circumstance it could blow up causing damage to the user.
I have had more misfires with older designs than new ones. Like matchlocks and flintlocks. They just fail to fire.
Modern semi autos are the only ones that could possibly blow up in your hand. A weak cartridge does not sent a bullet all the way out of the barrel and the next one run into it in the barrel. This is very very very very rare. Normally the bullet just pushes the stuck one out ahead of it.
Even revolvers have troubles with rounds not going off.
As for in game. If the player rolls a nat 1 then have them roll a d100 and on a nat 1 the gun gets stuck and needs a 10 minute turn to clear it. Other than that its just a miss fire and the next use everything is fine.
If the player rolls two nat 1's in a row on the attack then the gun goes boom and the player takes 1d10 in damage.
Uhm, no. All firearms can potentially blow up due to the fact that they are a contianer packed with explosives.
That said, back to OP, others have already gon over the problem with the firearm itself so I won't go into that. But as TransmorpherDDS mentioned, there are a lot of other tricks you can pull. Higher AC and more HP ae the obvious ones, resitsances and immunities are another. Don't forget cover as well.
Also, make sure the enemies fight smart using traps, ambushes and actual tactics. As you probably know, due to the action economy a single monster will always be at a disadvantage against multiple PCs. So give the dragon a few minions to help even things out. You might want to look into Matt Colville's mooks for that.
Another thing to do is of course to make it more difficult for the Artificer to use their firearm. Maybe the fight takes place in a room filled with lots of flammable material. Might not want to chuck around fireballs and and bullets in there... Enemies could also use abilities such as Darkness or Blind to make it more difficult for the party. Or just have a few enemies charge the Artificer. Ranged attacks when you are in melee are always at a disadvantage.
Bowstrings can snap, swords can become blunted, and spear shafts can break. If you're going to institute critical fumble rules, you shouldn't single out a single weapon, they should be something that applies to all weapons.
And quite honestly there's a reason that 5E doesn't have fumble rules. And as others have already said, 39 damage is not impressive output at 13th level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Why is this even an issue? He can do the exact same thing with a light crossbow with repeating shot.
With the stock 'pistol' in the DMG he'd do 1d10 per attack, and Repeating shot will ignore the loading and ammunition properties.