If you make high level monsters that have good HP and saves, with legendary resistances, instead of of throwing 20 or 250 CR 1/2 enemies at the PCs, then I think you'll have a better chance at making them feel like they're mortal /vulnerable. Two ancient dragons, a handful of purple worms, anything aside from more orcs should do the trick in my opinion.
Maybe I should explain what happened in the last combat.
20 monsters were taken out in less than one round with an area effect spell from the Necromancer. Different details each time but this is they way it's been for 17 levels and 18 months.
I'm not hell bent on hurting the party. I'm wanting to run a major combat that would ultimately cause hurt on the party so that I will know best how to run that type of combat.
More low level monsters won't do that. You need high CR monsters for high level players. If your monsters are going from full HP to 0 HP after 1 spell then your monsters don't have enough HP because they are too low level.
For the party you describe, challenging combat would be (using just monsters in the Basic Rules):
Maybe I should explain what happened in the last combat.
20 monsters were taken out in less than one round with an area effect spell from the Necromancer. Different details each time but this is they way it's been for 17 levels and 18 months.
I'm not hell bent on hurting the party. I'm wanting to run a major combat that would ultimately cause hurt on the party so that I will know best how to run that type of combat.
More low level monsters won't do that. You need high CR monsters for high level players. If your monsters are going from full HP to 0 HP after 1 spell then your monsters don't have enough HP because they are too low level.
For the party you describe, challenging combat would be (using just monsters in the Basic Rules):
mist be nice for combats to start with 250 assailants immediately in range eh?
so we going to assume the paladin casts cloudkill on themselves. Knows the spell. But is going to keep their eyes open? Triggering the blinded effect of it. When they KNOW that the cloud will move away from them on its own?
or… Lie prone… again… since they know the spell?
interesting. I love all the tedious things being thrown to try and make it feasible for the 250 orcs to win.
They can also just run into melee with the paladin and do even more damage. Also, the orcs can attack from 120 feet away with their javelins and can run 30 ft towards a hostile creature on their turn as a bonus action.
It is physically impossible for 250 orcs to melee the Paladin at once. At most 8 can at a time. As the bodies pile up there is more and more difficult terrain. I have intentionally been allowing this scenario to play out as “theres no possible way any of the orcs have an obstructed view, or that with bodies piling up and surrounded by orcs that the paladin could possibly be benefitting from any form of cover”. Even in this paladin seeking javelin scenario. It’s unlikely that 250 orcs defeat the level 17 paladin.
I will gladly let you set up a roll20 combat and I have a level 17 paladin using standard array. Can even do it without any magic items- a crazy scenario for the level 17 paladin after 18 months of questing to not have a single magic item.
the whole point: this combat- 1. Will not accomplish what the OP wants.
2. Is not a deadly or even threatening combat for the OP’s players’ party
mist be nice for combats to start with 250 assailants immediately in range eh?
so we going to assume the paladin casts cloudkill on themselves. Knows the spell. But is going to keep their eyes open? Triggering the blinded effect of it. When they KNOW that the cloud will move away from them on its own?
or… Lie prone… again… since they know the spell?
interesting. I love all the tedious things being thrown to try and make it feasible for the 250 orcs to win.
They can also just run into melee with the paladin and do even more damage. Also, the orcs can attack from 120 feet away with their javelins and can run 30 ft towards a hostile creature on their turn as a bonus action.
It is physically impossible for 250 orcs to melee the Paladin at once. At most 8 can at a time. As the bodies pile up there is more and more difficult terrain. I have intentionally been allowing this scenario to play out as “theres no possible way any of the orcs have an obstructed view, or that with bodies piling up and surrounded by orcs that the paladin could possibly be benefitting from any form of cover”. Even in this paladin seeking javelin scenario. It’s unlikely that 250 orcs defeat the level 17 paladin.
I will gladly let you set up a roll20 combat and I have a level 17 paladin using standard array. Can even do it without any magic items- a crazy scenario for the level 17 paladin after 18 months of questing to not have a single magic item.
the whole point: this combat- 1. Will not accomplish what the OP wants.
2. Is not a deadly or even threatening combat for the OP’s players’ party
3. will just be a time sink.
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
It is physically impossible for 250 orcs to melee the Paladin at once. At most 8 can at a time. As the bodies pile up there is more and more difficult terrain. I have intentionally been allowing this scenario to play out as “theres no possible way any of the orcs have an obstructed view, or that with bodies piling up and surrounded by orcs that the paladin could possibly be benefitting from any form of cover”.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
mist be nice for combats to start with 250 assailants immediately in range eh?
so we going to assume the paladin casts cloudkill on themselves. Knows the spell. But is going to keep their eyes open? Triggering the blinded effect of it. When they KNOW that the cloud will move away from them on its own?
or… Lie prone… again… since they know the spell?
interesting. I love all the tedious things being thrown to try and make it feasible for the 250 orcs to win.
They can also just run into melee with the paladin and do even more damage. Also, the orcs can attack from 120 feet away with their javelins and can run 30 ft towards a hostile creature on their turn as a bonus action.
It is physically impossible for 250 orcs to melee the Paladin at once. At most 8 can at a time. As the bodies pile up there is more and more difficult terrain. I have intentionally been allowing this scenario to play out as “theres no possible way any of the orcs have an obstructed view, or that with bodies piling up and surrounded by orcs that the paladin could possibly be benefitting from any form of cover”. Even in this paladin seeking javelin scenario. It’s unlikely that 250 orcs defeat the level 17 paladin.
I will gladly let you set up a roll20 combat and I have a level 17 paladin using standard array. Can even do it without any magic items- a crazy scenario for the level 17 paladin after 18 months of questing to not have a single magic item.
the whole point: this combat- 1. Will not accomplish what the OP wants.
2. Is not a deadly or even threatening combat for the OP’s players’ party
3. will just be a time sink.
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
No. WE. Haven’t.
SOME people- have been assuming that a situation already stated of the party TRAVELLING TO JUST OUTSIDE THE BBEG’s LAIR. And a fight of 250 orcs happens. That not a single bit of prep is done by the party travelling there. And like they wouldn’t be looking for traps or ambushes or etc. and that everything is instantly starting in combat……
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
If the paladin has AC 30 (no adamantine b/c +x armor), the orcs will do an average of 237.5 damage in melee, or 161 at range. (assuming they start)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
It is physically impossible for 250 orcs to melee the Paladin at once. At most 8 can at a time. As the bodies pile up there is more and more difficult terrain. I have intentionally been allowing this scenario to play out as “theres no possible way any of the orcs have an obstructed view, or that with bodies piling up and surrounded by orcs that the paladin could possibly be benefitting from any form of cover”.
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
This guy gets it.
My one reaction: 19/20 chance of a hit/kill. (Unless a completely plain weapon in which case… 18/20 chance of a hit.)
their attacks? Worthless. -dodge action. Kill them via reaction.
thats scenario 1 to counter this ridiculously ineffective strategy. Show me the statistical odds for how long it will take your strategy to roll to nat 20s to force a crit. To whittle down the level 17 oath of ancients paladin to death.
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
If the paladin has AC 30 (no adamantine b/c +x armor), the orcs will do an average of 237.5 damage in melee, or 161 at range. (assuming they start)
Assuming they don't start they will do 0 damage because the necromancer casts Wall of Fire around the party which instantly kills every orc that steps through it.
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
If the paladin has AC 30 (no adamantine b/c +x armor), the orcs will do an average of 237.5 damage in melee, or 161 at range. (assuming they start)
Assuming they don't start they will do 0 damage because the necromancer casts Wall of Fire around the party which instantly kills every orc that steps through it.
I would just have it so there is a one hp like 250 x 12 (I think that is orcs avg hp) and them have avg damage dealt to pcs. And when ever a spell caster does a area spell you do 1 save role and do total damage = damage x area
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
If the paladin has AC 30 (no adamantine b/c +x armor), the orcs will do an average of 237.5 damage in melee, or 161 at range. (assuming they start)
Assuming they don't start they will do 0 damage because the necromancer casts Wall of Fire around the party which instantly kills every orc that steps through it.
That is irrelevant: we are talking about one paladin versus 250 orcs.
Orcs have a ranged attack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
So, somehow it did, indeed, hone in on the Paladin. Let's not forget the Necromancer with area effect spells and minions of his own, the Monk with his Drunken Master specialty, the Barbarian who took Path of the Beast and can sweep enemies off their feet (for not normal reasons), the Fighter (did I mention he is a 9' tall Goliath?) who has an Echo Knight, and the Blood Hunter with an affinity for slicing throats with his karambits...
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
This guy gets it.
My one reaction: 19/20 chance of a hit/kill. (Unless a completely plain weapon in which case… 18/20 chance of a hit.)
their attacks? Worthless. -dodge action. Kill them via reaction.
thats scenario 1 to counter this ridiculously ineffective strategy. Show me the statistical odds for how long it will take your strategy to roll to nat 20s to force a crit. To whittle down the level 17 oath of ancients paladin to death.
Grapple and shove. The paladin only has a ~2/3 chance to succeed on the saving throw. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible for more than one orc to grapple the paladin at a time?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
If you make high level monsters that have good HP and saves, with legendary resistances, instead of of throwing 20 or 250 CR 1/2 enemies at the PCs, then I think you'll have a better chance at making them feel like they're mortal /vulnerable. Two ancient dragons, a handful of purple worms, anything aside from more orcs should do the trick in my opinion.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
More low level monsters won't do that. You need high CR monsters for high level players. If your monsters are going from full HP to 0 HP after 1 spell then your monsters don't have enough HP because they are too low level.
For the party you describe, challenging combat would be (using just monsters in the Basic Rules):
Option 1: Demon Battle Squadron : 8 Nalfeshnee + 2 Balor
Option 2: Rainbow Dragon Nest : 2 Ancient Dragons of different colours (Ma & Pa) + 4 Young Dragons of different colours + 12 Wyrmlings
Option 3: Storm Giant's Army : 5 Storm Giants + 4 Behir + 2 Androsphinx
Option 4: Lich's Lair : 1x Lich with at least 400 hit points + 5 Archmages + one each: enslaved Djinni, Efreeti, Dao, Marid + 5 Iron Golems
Option 5: Army of Heaven: 3x Solar + 6x Planetar
All of this.
ALL OF THIS.
It is physically impossible for 250 orcs to melee the Paladin at once. At most 8 can at a time. As the bodies pile up there is more and more difficult terrain. I have intentionally been allowing this scenario to play out as “theres no possible way any of the orcs have an obstructed view, or that with bodies piling up and surrounded by orcs that the paladin could possibly be benefitting from any form of cover”. Even in this paladin seeking javelin scenario. It’s unlikely that 250 orcs defeat the level 17 paladin.
I will gladly let you set up a roll20 combat and I have a level 17 paladin using standard array. Can even do it without any magic items- a crazy scenario for the level 17 paladin after 18 months of questing to not have a single magic item.
the whole point: this combat- 1. Will not accomplish what the OP wants.
2. Is not a deadly or even threatening combat for the OP’s players’ party
3. will just be a time sink.
Blank
The orcs run in with their bonus action, attack, and run away. You get one opportunity attack: use it wisely. Also, this whole time we've been assuming the paladin goes first.
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
I'm reminded of the battle from the criminally underrated John Carter
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You really need to get a map and some minis to check out just how viable your scenario actually is
But then, you think a 17th-level paladin will only have an AC of 21, so maybe it wouldn't help
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is a lot of reading.
Dnd nerd here
No. WE. Haven’t.
SOME people- have been assuming that a situation already stated of the party TRAVELLING TO JUST OUTSIDE THE BBEG’s LAIR. And a fight of 250 orcs happens. That not a single bit of prep is done by the party travelling there. And like they wouldn’t be looking for traps or ambushes or etc. and that everything is instantly starting in combat……
Blank
This guy gets it.
Blank
If the paladin has AC 30 (no adamantine b/c +x armor), the orcs will do an average of 237.5 damage in melee, or 161 at range. (assuming they start)
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
I forgot how to make a thread
Dnd nerd here
Pretty similar to a level 17 player character vs 250 cr 1/2 mobs
Blank
Bro, just nuke them. :)
Dnd nerd here
My one reaction: 19/20 chance of a hit/kill. (Unless a completely plain weapon in which case… 18/20 chance of a hit.)
their attacks? Worthless. -dodge action. Kill them via reaction.
thats scenario 1 to counter this ridiculously ineffective strategy. Show me the statistical odds for how long it will take your strategy to roll to nat 20s to force a crit. To whittle down the level 17 oath of ancients paladin to death.
Blank
Assuming they don't start they will do 0 damage because the necromancer casts Wall of Fire around the party which instantly kills every orc that steps through it.
I would just have it so there is a one hp like 250 x 12 (I think that is orcs avg hp) and them have avg damage dealt to pcs. And when ever a spell caster does a area spell you do 1 save role and do total damage = damage x area
Dnd nerd here
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
My head is swimming.
So, somehow it did, indeed, hone in on the Paladin. Let's not forget the Necromancer with area effect spells and minions of his own, the Monk with his Drunken Master specialty, the Barbarian who took Path of the Beast and can sweep enemies off their feet (for not normal reasons), the Fighter (did I mention he is a 9' tall Goliath?) who has an Echo Knight, and the Blood Hunter with an affinity for slicing throats with his karambits...
Grapple and shove. The paladin only has a ~2/3 chance to succeed on the saving throw. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible for more than one orc to grapple the paladin at a time?
Homebrew spell: dominance
Extended signature
:-( No time, no spare money for that.