I would imagine the same place you're getting "an orc would win a grapple with a 17th-level paladin one in six times" from
You could've asked, but okay. The dc for the save would be 13 (8 + pb plus str.). If the paladin has a +5 in strength saves, they would need to roll at least an 8. That gives a 13/20, or roughly 2/3. That means 1/3 orcs will succeed on the grapple and 1/3 on the shove, so you need on average 6 orcs.
What about the aura of protection adding their charisma mod to the save?
fail.
grapple is an attack. Dodge dodges all attacks. Fail.
With the new strategy, the paladin wins 98.4% of the time!
Why Does This Work?
1. Death Ward: Gives a second chance, preventing an early loss.
2. Dodge Action Early: Makes orc javelin attacks significantly less effective, reducing early damage.
3. Stone Skin: Halves damage from all orc attacks, doubling survivability.
4. Sustained Combat: The paladin still kills ~5 orcs per round, but now takes far less damage in return.
Conclusion:
With these tactical changes, the paladin consistently outlasts the orcs, proving that smart resource management and defensive spells can make a massive difference in high-level battles.
Why do you keep mentioning death ward? It's only blocking one attack.
As I said, grapple and shove negate this very well.
I had an AI simulator run the scenario of a battle of a DND level 17 paladin Tabaxi oath of the ancient in fifth edition against 250 5th edition orc mobs. With ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC ITEMS. And in the simulation it did it as the paladin just casts haste on themselves. Wears out after haste. And gets overwhelmed. I then told the ai simulator to run it again and instead of the paladin being a dump stat int person. To instead of casting haste on themselves. Cast death ward and stone skin. Then dodge until javelins are used up. And— with NO MAGIC ITEMS AT ALL— in that scenario the paladin wins 98.4% of the time.
edit: you have disproved absolutely nothing. As I have repeatedly offered to very easily test your hypothesis. By having you control the 250 orcs. And have literally anyone else here run the level 17 paladin.
you have shown a lack of understanding of difficult terrain. Of cover. Of how dodge works. Of how death ward works. Of how concentration saves work. Of how paladins work.
and the only benefit of any of this is the OP has realized that the 250 orcs battle will not have the purposes he intended it to have as a result- and therefore needed to tweak his battle greatly.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think, to the origional point, a powerful group of adventurers with their own army aren't gonna be even remotely touched by the orcs. You need a centerpiece for your army to really have the encounter add up to anything, and the orcs make good distractions and resources drains for it, but by themselves will. Not. Do. ANYTHING.
Agreed. The orcs themselves don’t even (without dm intervention) pose a problem for the 180 berserkers from the horn of Valhalla. (Orcs and breakers have essentially same AC and damage output, but berserkers have 67 hp to the Orcs’ 15 hp).
then- the necromancer has his minions and stuff too.
on top of all the suggestions for dragons or purple worms or etc…. It might be a good idea to have some anti magic field zones strewn about, as some traps and defenses that the BBEG has outside his lair as a protection against invasion and such.
OP: in the 18 months of campaigning what were the battles your party enjoyed most or were most challenged by?
They've never had a "real" combat. That is, every combat that I thought would challenge them, they wiped the floor with the enemy in one round or less. Thus my desire to give them a combat they've actually asked for. Something that drops some hit points and maybe puts them on the edge of their seat.
********
Let's start over. They are about to leave a very hospitable Dwarven camp, and travel to a mountain where the BBG awaits them at the top. The army in question is in the valley and will attack. I agree it is wise to have higher CR creatures than Orcs, but I want Orcs (on the frontline) in order to set the Barbarian off. I've worked to tap into the specific quirks and workings of each PC and Class, so Orcs should be present.
Looking at the 6 PCs, an Echo, a Unicorn, and 8 Necro minions...give it some thought and tell me: what and how many creatures should I use? Melee and spellcasters. I had originally leaned towards the idea of large numbers so the Barbarian would find it necessary to summon the aide of 180 Berserkers and I would still like to include that. If their travel after this combat takes more than 7 days, she can use it again in the final combat with the BBG.
Note: this is the list the Necromancer is pulling from for spells. https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_Necromancy_Spells He is particularly keen on Animate Dead Legion, which potentially gives him a small army, himself, as the BBG's army is reduced.
Also, I need suggestions for how to have the army get a surprise appearance on the Party, possibly to get the first attack in. I have no doubt someone in the Party would sense something wasn't right walking through the valley, but give me your best ideas for them being invisible until the last minute. I don't want them seeing the army headed their way from across the valley.....too much time to prepare. Homebrew the hell out of it if you have to. I''m fine with something like a swirling cloud on the ground that they approach that the army is hidden in, or maybe something akin to Stonehenge that as soon as they step into the middle of it, the army appears. Or the like. LOL. If I can get the melee combatants mixed in with the Party during combat, the Necro might avoid area effect spells.
I'd love it if the combat took an hour, maybe an hour and a half, real time.
Also, I need suggestions for how to have the army get a surprise appearance on the Party, possibly to get the first attack in. I have no doubt someone in the Party would sense something wasn't right walking through the valley, but give me your best ideas for them being invisible until the last minute. I don't want them seeing the army headed their way from across the valley.....too much time to prepare. Homebrew the hell out of it if you have to. I''m fine with something like a swirling cloud on the ground that they approach that the army is hidden in, or maybe something akin to Stonehenge that as soon as they step into the middle of it, the army appears. Or the like. LOL. If I can get the melee combatants mixed in with the Party during combat, the Necro might avoid area effect spells.
If the orcs are just a distraction, let them be a distraction. Have them set up for an ambush that the party can spot, and then get overconfident because they think they've got the drop on the enemy
As for how to get the real threats onto the field, just have portals open where you want them once the party's engaged, Avengers Endgame style. You don't have to tell them exactly what sort of spell it is -- the BBEG doesn't play by the same rules as PCs
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok in an attempt to put this silly paladin vs 250 orcs debate to bed - since it is a completely pointless distraction as no one in their right mind it rolling attacks for all 250 orcs one at a time -
Key Rulings:
1) Orcs create cover for/from Orcs behind them, so if 8 orcs are in melee with the paladin, the paladin has at least 1/2 cover from all ranged attacks, 3/4 cover if the paladin is prone.
2) Orcs moving through the space of other Orcs is difficult terrain, so if the paladin is completely surrounded by Orcs, the orcs effectively have 15ft of move speed not 30 ft.
3) Orcs act like Orcs and attempt to swarm & over run their enemy rather than orderly walking back and forth in front of the paladin taking perfectly timed turns.
4) Orcs have only 3 Javelins each, and will only throw them if they have a reasonably clear shot.
Paladin: Sword +Dueling + Shield + Plate Armour + Shield of Faith, for simplicity assume they have sufficiently high CON + CHA that they will never lose concentration on Shield of Faith AC = 22 HP = 188 (+3 CON + Tough) Lay on Hands = 85 BA Healing Word = 4*(2.5+3)+3*(5+3)+3*(7.5+3)+3*(10+3)+1*(12.5+3) = 132 Total Hit Points = 405
P(Paladin hits) = 95% N hits / kill = 1.33 (i.e 50% chance to 1-hit kill) N attacks/round = 3 (2 with action + 1 with reaction) - No Dodge N attacks/round = 1 - Dodging
N spaces 5ft of Paladin = 8 N spaces 10 ft of Paladin = 13 N spaces 15 ft of Paladin = 24 = 13+8+8 = 29 melee attacks / round N spaces 20 ft of Paladin = 32 =3*32 = 96 ranged attacks / round
P(Knock Prone = DC 15) = 30% : Paladin has +5 STR + 3 CHA
Expected damage to Paladin per round if they Dodge & the Orcs try to knock them Prone: ~4 attacks used to knock Paladin Prone Ranged attacks are completely ineffective = 8*0.2*25 = 40 Paladin survives: 405/40 = 10 rounds & kills 10 Orcs
Expected damage to the Paladin per round if they stand & attack: 96 ranged attacks = 96*0.1*6 = 57.6 29 melee attacks = 52.2 Paladin survives: 405/100 = ~4 rounds & kills 12 Orcs
Even with some wiggle room on these assumption (i.e. 10-fold difference) the Paladin isn't going to kill even half of the army before going down.
Ok in an attempt to put this silly paladin vs 250 orcs debate to bed - since it is a completely pointless distraction as no one in their right mind it rolling attacks for all 250 orcs one at a time -
Key Rulings:
1) Orcs create cover for/from Orcs behind them, so if 8 orcs are in melee with the paladin, the paladin has at least 1/2 cover from all ranged attacks, 3/4 cover if the paladin is prone.
2) Orcs moving through the space of other Orcs is difficult terrain, so if the paladin is completely surrounded by Orcs, the orcs effectively have 15ft of move speed not 30 ft.
3) Orcs act like Orcs and attempt to swarm & over run their enemy rather than orderly walking back and forth in front of the paladin taking perfectly timed turns.
4) Orcs have only 3 Javelins each, and will only throw them if they have a reasonably clear shot.
Paladin: Sword +Dueling + Shield + Plate Armour + Shield of Faith, for simplicity assume they have sufficiently high CON + CHA that they will never lose concentration on Shield of Faith AC = 22 HP = 188 (+3 CON + Tough) Lay on Hands = 85 BA Healing Word = 4*(2.5+3)+3*(5+3)+3*(7.5+3)+3*(10+3)+1*(12.5+3) = 132 Total Hit Points = 405
P(Paladin hits) = 95% N hits / kill = 1.33 (i.e 50% chance to 1-hit kill) N attacks/round = 3 (2 with action + 1 with reaction) - No Dodge N attacks/round = 1 - Dodging
N spaces 5ft of Paladin = 8 N spaces 10 ft of Paladin = 13 N spaces 15 ft of Paladin = 24 = 13+8+8 = 29 melee attacks / round N spaces 20 ft of Paladin = 32 =3*32 = 96 ranged attacks / round
P(Knock Prone = DC 15) = 30% : Paladin has +5 STR + 3 CHA
Expected damage to Paladin per round if they Dodge & the Orcs try to knock them Prone: ~4 attacks used to knock Paladin Prone Ranged attacks are completely ineffective = 8*0.2*25 = 40 Paladin survives: 405/40 = 10 rounds & kills 10 Orcs
Expected damage to the Paladin per round if they stand & attack: 96 ranged attacks = 96*0.1*6 = 57.6 29 melee attacks = 52.2 Paladin survives: 405/100 = ~4 rounds & kills 12 Orcs
Even with some wiggle room on these assumption (i.e. 10-fold difference) the Paladin isn't going to kill even half of the army before going down.
Why would you use shield of faith when you have access to superior spells like stone skin (half all damage orcs can possibly cause), why would you not have death ward up as a safeguard sometime in the 8 hours prior to it… that’s just foolish adventuring.
why are you only melee attacking when destructive wave can kill as many as 179 orcs in 1 go.
then even after that. In this scenario you still have 1 4th level spell left. That’s 1 Ice Storm. Which is another 20ft radius of dead orcs.
you too. Are really. Really…. Not thinking it through from how it would play out either.
Edit: of course- 100% loss rate for the paladin. When you are only using melee attacks vs 250 orcs. But why is a level 17 paladin fighting like a level 1 paladin? He has 5th level spells. 3 4th level spells. i have personally had this discussion (in real life at a table taking 11 hours. With a Conquest paladin) and the conquest paladin was able to run through over 2000 orcs before he got overwhelmed. (Did this shortly after goblin slayer debuted)
you did not put anything to bed. Only brought up something again, that OP very adequately by themselves transitioned off of. That said- I too will transition it back to OPs thing. For the OP.
They've never had a "real" combat. That is, every combat that I thought would challenge them, they wiped the floor with the enemy in one round or less. Thus my desire to give them a combat they've actually asked for. Something that drops some hit points and maybe puts them on the edge of their seat.
********
Let's start over. They are about to leave a very hospitable Dwarven camp, and travel to a mountain where the BBG awaits them at the top. The army in question is in the valley and will attack. I agree it is wise to have higher CR creatures than Orcs, but I want Orcs (on the frontline) in order to set the Barbarian off. I've worked to tap into the specific quirks and workings of each PC and Class, so Orcs should be present.
Looking at the 6 PCs, an Echo, a Unicorn, and 8 Necro minions...give it some thought and tell me: what and how many creatures should I use? Melee and spellcasters. I had originally leaned towards the idea of large numbers so the Barbarian would find it necessary to summon the aide of 180 Berserkers and I would still like to include that. If their travel after this combat takes more than 7 days, she can use it again in the final combat with the BBG.
Note: this is the list the Necromancer is pulling from for spells. https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_Necromancy_Spells He is particularly keen on Animate Dead Legion, which potentially gives him a small army, himself, as the BBG's army is reduced.
Also, I need suggestions for how to have the army get a surprise appearance on the Party, possibly to get the first attack in. I have no doubt someone in the Party would sense something wasn't right walking through the valley, but give me your best ideas for them being invisible until the last minute. I don't want them seeing the army headed their way from across the valley.....too much time to prepare. Homebrew the hell out of it if you have to. I''m fine with something like a swirling cloud on the ground that they approach that the army is hidden in, or maybe something akin to Stonehenge that as soon as they step into the middle of it, the army appears. Or the like. LOL. If I can get the melee combatants mixed in with the Party during combat, the Necro might avoid area effect spells.
I'd love it if the combat took an hour, maybe an hour and a half, real time.
One thing I thought of in addition to what Anton suggested.
the friendly Dwarven camp they are in. What if they are a completely elaborate ruse for a false sense of security, only to “attack” the party from behind, while the orcs are out front as a decoy, on top of the avengers endgame portals…
Weelllllll, (scratches back of neck and looks sheepish) except the Commander and the Barbarian had supper together last night, and, well, one thing led to another....because she has to continue her bloodline, and the Commander has fallen in love, but knows he may never see her again....and the Party has been told the camp is on the same side as them and waiting for the next wave of army to show up (not the same as in the valley). Plus, it's not the Barbarian that I have some plot twist surprises for......*that* piece of deliciousness is reserved for the BloodHunter. ;-) No, the camp is an ally.
I don't think you need portals. I think and epic scene would be if they were in the camp at night, just chilling, and then suddenly a war horn sounds and hundreds of torches are lit at once and the heroes are surrounded. Cue the desperate midnight fight, arrow volleys, big siege monsters, all of it, taking the heroes by surprise. In this case, you could beef up the orcs (berserker level health, maybe?), and give them disengage as a bonus action to deploy skirmisher tactics (hit and run, javelins) and drop the big monsters on them after the orcs drain them a little. You could even use aforementioned commander romantic relationship to your advantage and have some orcs drag them out of a tent and get at least the dwarf to run into a trap.
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DM: He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones.
Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
Also, this is for Redwall nerds: Eeeeeuuuuulllllllaaaaaaaalllllllliiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think really, if you want to make it challenging, you have to use smart tactics and not just a buttload of monsters if you want to really make the adventurers bleed. And if they start wiping the floor with your orcs, have a table of backup monsters to throw at them.
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DM: He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones.
Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
Also, this is for Redwall nerds: Eeeeeuuuuulllllllaaaaaaaalllllllliiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
They've never had a "real" combat. That is, every combat that I thought would challenge them, they wiped the floor with the enemy in one round or less. Thus my desire to give them a combat they've actually asked for. Something that drops some hit points and maybe puts them on the edge of their seat.
********
Let's start over. They are about to leave a very hospitable Dwarven camp, and travel to a mountain where the BBG awaits them at the top. The army in question is in the valley and will attack. I agree it is wise to have higher CR creatures than Orcs, but I want Orcs (on the frontline) in order to set the Barbarian off. I've worked to tap into the specific quirks and workings of each PC and Class, so Orcs should be present.
Ok, then you use the Orcs to actually scare the party....
Set up: there is a massive Orc army, 500-1000 orcs strong marching through the valley. Their sea of bodies has churned the entire valley into mud as they pass, and their green skin makes it appear as if the very forest itself is marching to battle. This army out numbers the friendly dwarves and will slaughter the dwarves and feast on their corpses unless the party stops them. The party can see them coming but have only a few minutes to prepare as the army is quick-marching to attack the dwarves. give them 10 minutes IRL & in-game time to decide what they are doing and any preparation.
Battle Part 1: Orc Army
If the party decide to hide & avoid the army the friendly dwarf camp is massacred (no need to roll anything just narrate them being slaughtered), but the party can conserve their resources for later. Be sure to narrate the dwarves screaming for help etc... to really guilt-trip the players if they choose to allow the dwarves to die.
If the party decides to use the Horn of Valhalla to fight the orc army, then the berserkers fight the main orc army and hold it at bay until the leader of the Orcs - a half-giant x half-orc breaks through the berserkers and attacks the party directly using 1x Purple Worm + 2x Remorhaz that burrow up from the ground underneath the berserkers. This triggers rolling initiative where the players fight the Purple Worm, 2x Remorhaz, Orc Leader, and waves of 10-30 orcs that spill through the gap in the berserker line at the start of each round. Once the players defeat the Purple Worm, Remorhazes and Orc Leader the berserkers are able to keep the rest of the army at bay.
Home Brewed Orc Leader: Use the Storm Giant statblock but remove it's spellcasting feature and instead give it a Bonus Action Dash, and change it to be Large size rather than Huge, and upgrade it's armour & weapon to be comparable to what you have given the player characters.
Battle Part 2: Monster Patrol
Regardless of the party's choice, the BBG sends out a squadron of monsters to patrol & defend his mountain lair because the BBG knows the players are coming (I presume). These monster patrols are fast and flying overhead: Each one includes 3x Ultraloths + 6x Erinyes. Give them a +5 bonus to their Passive Perception due to their vantage point of flying overhead. You can give the players the option to try to sneak past but it should be very difficult for them to succeed at that since these monsters have True Sight so most hiding spells will be useless against them.
Here's the key though: have some Orcs and/or Berserkers survive Battle Part 1, and have one of these scouting parties decide to go kill those berserkers/orcs for fun shortly after the end of Battle Part 1 (i.e. no more than 10 minutes in-game time so no time for the party to SR). Narrate for the players how this scouting party is effortlessly murdering the berserkers/orcs with arrows from 500 ft up in the air, and have one of the Ultraloths incinerate a large portion of them with Fire Storm from 150 ft away from them and just laugh about it (give each Ultraloth 2x castings of Fire Storm to property hurt the players). If the party didn't fight the Orc have this scouting party do the same killing the Remorhaz / Purple Worm for kicks as well.
When the scouting party engages with the players they use similar tactics using their flight and ranged weapons / spells to attack the party from a distance (60-100 ft in the air) - note give the Erinyes advantage on all of their attacks if they are firing down at their target. After the first scout dies have next turn of one of the Ultraloths be spent casting the Gate spell from a scroll to summon either a Beholder or a Death Tyrant (Homebrew it to have 400-500 hit points so it isn't instantly killed) to join them in fighting the party. When the Ultraloths are whittled down to only 1 remaining that one uses Dimension Door to escape and go warn the BBG of the party's imminent attack, and you can add it to the BBG's boss fight - or have it's head on a stick out side the BBG's lair as a warning to the players.
An idea: valley has tall grasses. Orc frontline is in 6 clusters, 4 in each cluster, hiding in the grasses, about 60' out from the party. As the party moves across the valley, the move forward in the same direction, maintaining the 60' distance, but the clusters that would make up the "from behind" move towards each other so that ultimately, they form a circle around the party until the time is right, at which point they move to 30' and then attack (surprise). They intermingle among the Party, thus hindering area effect spells. During the chaos, portals (Endgame-style, as one poster mentioned) open up from numerous directions and in pours other enemy creatures.
An idea: valley has tall grasses. Orc frontline is in 6 clusters, 4 in each cluster, hiding in the grasses, about 60' out from the party. As the party moves across the valley, the move forward in the same direction, maintaining the 60' distance, but the clusters that would make up the "from behind" move towards each other so that ultimately, they form a circle around the party until the time is right, at which point they move to 30' and then attack (surprise). They intermingle among the Party, thus hindering area effect spells. During the chaos, portals (Endgame-style, as one poster mentioned) open up from numerous directions and in pours other enemy creatures.
The one thing to be wary of “area effect spells” style is the paladin’s “destructive wave”
An idea: valley has tall grasses. Orc frontline is in 6 clusters, 4 in each cluster, hiding in the grasses, about 60' out from the party. As the party moves across the valley, the move forward in the same direction, maintaining the 60' distance, but the clusters that would make up the "from behind" move towards each other so that ultimately, they form a circle around the party until the time is right, at which point they move to 30' and then attack (surprise). They intermingle among the Party, thus hindering area effect spells. During the chaos, portals (Endgame-style, as one poster mentioned) open up from numerous directions and in pours other enemy creatures.
What's the highest passive Perception in the party? That seems like a lot of opportunities for the orcs to be spotted before they tighten the noose, even if you're avoiding the BH's danger sense and giving the orcs advantage on Stealth checks or something due to the grass
I'd also be wary of the party seeing the tall grass, immediately expecting an ambush and taking countermeasures. Does the necromancer or paladin have a spell that will kill huge swaths of the grass? Can they just fly over the field and bypass it entirely? (I assume the players have seen, well, any action or horror movie with a field of tall grass)
The one thing you want to avoid is creating a scenario that only works for the bad guys if the players do exactly what you expect them to do. Because players basically never do exactly what you expect them to do
Try to think in terms of subverting the players' expectations. If they see a field of tall grass that screams ambush, put the orcs anywhere else but in the grass. Maybe they've dug little pits under the field like trap-door spiders, waiting to pounce when the party is close enough (and using the tall grass to disguise the covers of their hidey holes, rather than hide themselves.) Maybe sections of the grass are actually some sort of monster that the orcs know to avoid (plenty of plant monsters out there you could repurpose/boost in power), and the ambush is set around the Monster Zone rather than within it, so that raining javelins down might be more effective if the PCs are restrained by vines or just have another, more dangerous foe to worry about at the same time. All kinds of things you can do to set up the players to expect one thing, and then hit them with something else
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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My bad, I forgot about their aura. That would make it a 1/10 chance of failure roughly and require twenty orcs. [REDACTED]
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
What about the aura of protection adding their charisma mod to the save?
fail.
grapple is an attack. Dodge dodges all attacks. Fail.
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I had an AI simulator run the scenario of a battle of a DND level 17 paladin Tabaxi oath of the ancient in fifth edition against 250 5th edition orc mobs. With ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC ITEMS. And in the simulation it did it as the paladin just casts haste on themselves. Wears out after haste. And gets overwhelmed. I then told the ai simulator to run it again and instead of the paladin being a dump stat int person. To instead of casting haste on themselves. Cast death ward and stone skin. Then dodge until javelins are used up. And— with NO MAGIC ITEMS AT ALL— in that scenario the paladin wins 98.4% of the time.
edit: you have disproved absolutely nothing. As I have repeatedly offered to very easily test your hypothesis. By having you control the 250 orcs. And have literally anyone else here run the level 17 paladin.
you have shown a lack of understanding of difficult terrain. Of cover. Of how dodge works. Of how death ward works. Of how concentration saves work. Of how paladins work.
and the only benefit of any of this is the OP has realized that the 250 orcs battle will not have the purposes he intended it to have as a result- and therefore needed to tweak his battle greatly.
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I have time stamped pictures of the simulation in full that can be sent to anyone requesting.
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You have forgotten about/chosen to ignore a great many things in this thread. A paladin's aura was just the most obvious one
[REDACTED]
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Agreed. The orcs themselves don’t even (without dm intervention) pose a problem for the 180 berserkers from the horn of Valhalla. (Orcs and breakers have essentially same AC and damage output, but berserkers have 67 hp to the Orcs’ 15 hp).
then- the necromancer has his minions and stuff too.
on top of all the suggestions for dragons or purple worms or etc…. It might be a good idea to have some anti magic field zones strewn about, as some traps and defenses that the BBEG has outside his lair as a protection against invasion and such.
OP: in the 18 months of campaigning what were the battles your party enjoyed most or were most challenged by?
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They've never had a "real" combat. That is, every combat that I thought would challenge them, they wiped the floor with the enemy in one round or less. Thus my desire to give them a combat they've actually asked for. Something that drops some hit points and maybe puts them on the edge of their seat.
********
Let's start over. They are about to leave a very hospitable Dwarven camp, and travel to a mountain where the BBG awaits them at the top. The army in question is in the valley and will attack. I agree it is wise to have higher CR creatures than Orcs, but I want Orcs (on the frontline) in order to set the Barbarian off. I've worked to tap into the specific quirks and workings of each PC and Class, so Orcs should be present.
Looking at the 6 PCs, an Echo, a Unicorn, and 8 Necro minions...give it some thought and tell me: what and how many creatures should I use? Melee and spellcasters. I had originally leaned towards the idea of large numbers so the Barbarian would find it necessary to summon the aide of 180 Berserkers and I would still like to include that. If their travel after this combat takes more than 7 days, she can use it again in the final combat with the BBG.
Note: this is the list the Necromancer is pulling from for spells. https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_Necromancy_Spells He is particularly keen on Animate Dead Legion, which potentially gives him a small army, himself, as the BBG's army is reduced.
Also, I need suggestions for how to have the army get a surprise appearance on the Party, possibly to get the first attack in. I have no doubt someone in the Party would sense something wasn't right walking through the valley, but give me your best ideas for them being invisible until the last minute. I don't want them seeing the army headed their way from across the valley.....too much time to prepare. Homebrew the hell out of it if you have to. I''m fine with something like a swirling cloud on the ground that they approach that the army is hidden in, or maybe something akin to Stonehenge that as soon as they step into the middle of it, the army appears. Or the like. LOL. If I can get the melee combatants mixed in with the Party during combat, the Necro might avoid area effect spells.
I'd love it if the combat took an hour, maybe an hour and a half, real time.
If the orcs are just a distraction, let them be a distraction. Have them set up for an ambush that the party can spot, and then get overconfident because they think they've got the drop on the enemy
As for how to get the real threats onto the field, just have portals open where you want them once the party's engaged, Avengers Endgame style. You don't have to tell them exactly what sort of spell it is -- the BBEG doesn't play by the same rules as PCs
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok in an attempt to put this silly paladin vs 250 orcs debate to bed - since it is a completely pointless distraction as no one in their right mind it rolling attacks for all 250 orcs one at a time -
Key Rulings:
1) Orcs create cover for/from Orcs behind them, so if 8 orcs are in melee with the paladin, the paladin has at least 1/2 cover from all ranged attacks, 3/4 cover if the paladin is prone.
2) Orcs moving through the space of other Orcs is difficult terrain, so if the paladin is completely surrounded by Orcs, the orcs effectively have 15ft of move speed not 30 ft.
3) Orcs act like Orcs and attempt to swarm & over run their enemy rather than orderly walking back and forth in front of the paladin taking perfectly timed turns.
4) Orcs have only 3 Javelins each, and will only throw them if they have a reasonably clear shot.
Paladin: Sword +Dueling + Shield + Plate Armour + Shield of Faith, for simplicity assume they have sufficiently high CON + CHA that they will never lose concentration on Shield of Faith
AC = 22
HP = 188 (+3 CON + Tough)
Lay on Hands = 85
BA Healing Word = 4*(2.5+3)+3*(5+3)+3*(7.5+3)+3*(10+3)+1*(12.5+3) = 132
Total Hit Points = 405
P(Orc hits) = 20%
P(Orc hits | 1/2 cover) = 10%
P(Orc hits | 3/4 cover) = 5%
P(Orc hits | adv) = 36%
P(Orc hits | dis) = 4%
P(Paladin hits) = 95%
N hits / kill = 1.33 (i.e 50% chance to 1-hit kill)
N attacks/round = 3 (2 with action + 1 with reaction) - No Dodge
N attacks/round = 1 - Dodging
N spaces 5ft of Paladin = 8
N spaces 10 ft of Paladin = 13
N spaces 15 ft of Paladin = 24
= 13+8+8 = 29 melee attacks / round
N spaces 20 ft of Paladin = 32
=3*32 = 96 ranged attacks / round
P(Knock Prone = DC 15) = 30% : Paladin has +5 STR + 3 CHA
Expected damage to Paladin per round if they Dodge & the Orcs try to knock them Prone:
~4 attacks used to knock Paladin Prone
Ranged attacks are completely ineffective
= 8*0.2*25 = 40
Paladin survives: 405/40 = 10 rounds & kills 10 Orcs
Expected damage to the Paladin per round if they stand & attack:
96 ranged attacks = 96*0.1*6 = 57.6
29 melee attacks = 52.2
Paladin survives: 405/100 = ~4 rounds & kills 12 Orcs
Even with some wiggle room on these assumption (i.e. 10-fold difference) the Paladin isn't going to kill even half of the army before going down.
Why would you use shield of faith when you have access to superior spells like stone skin (half all damage orcs can possibly cause), why would you not have death ward up as a safeguard sometime in the 8 hours prior to it… that’s just foolish adventuring.
why are you only melee attacking when destructive wave can kill as many as 179 orcs in 1 go.
then even after that. In this scenario you still have 1 4th level spell left. That’s 1 Ice Storm. Which is another 20ft radius of dead orcs.
you too. Are really. Really…. Not thinking it through from how it would play out either.
Edit: of course- 100% loss rate for the paladin. When you are only using melee attacks vs 250 orcs. But why is a level 17 paladin fighting like a level 1 paladin? He has 5th level spells. 3 4th level spells.
i have personally had this discussion (in real life at a table taking 11 hours. With a Conquest paladin) and the conquest paladin was able to run through over 2000 orcs before he got overwhelmed. (Did this shortly after goblin slayer debuted)
you did not put anything to bed. Only brought up something again, that OP very adequately by themselves transitioned off of. That said- I too will transition it back to OPs thing. For the OP.
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One thing I thought of in addition to what Anton suggested.
the friendly Dwarven camp they are in. What if they are a completely elaborate ruse for a false sense of security, only to “attack” the party from behind, while the orcs are out front as a decoy, on top of the avengers endgame portals…
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Weelllllll, (scratches back of neck and looks sheepish) except the Commander and the Barbarian had supper together last night, and, well, one thing led to another....because she has to continue her bloodline, and the Commander has fallen in love, but knows he may never see her again....and the Party has been told the camp is on the same side as them and waiting for the next wave of army to show up (not the same as in the valley). Plus, it's not the Barbarian that I have some plot twist surprises for......*that* piece of deliciousness is reserved for the BloodHunter. ;-) No, the camp is an ally.
Got it. And unlikely to be something from geas or any spells. No worries.
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I don't think you need portals. I think and epic scene would be if they were in the camp at night, just chilling, and then suddenly a war horn sounds and hundreds of torches are lit at once and the heroes are surrounded. Cue the desperate midnight fight, arrow volleys, big siege monsters, all of it, taking the heroes by surprise. In this case, you could beef up the orcs (berserker level health, maybe?), and give them disengage as a bonus action to deploy skirmisher tactics (hit and run, javelins) and drop the big monsters on them after the orcs drain them a little. You could even use aforementioned commander romantic relationship to your advantage and have some orcs drag them out of a tent and get at least the dwarf to run into a trap.
DM: He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones.
Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
Also, this is for Redwall nerds: Eeeeeuuuuulllllllaaaaaaaalllllllliiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think really, if you want to make it challenging, you have to use smart tactics and not just a buttload of monsters if you want to really make the adventurers bleed. And if they start wiping the floor with your orcs, have a table of backup monsters to throw at them.
DM: He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones.
Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
Also, this is for Redwall nerds: Eeeeeuuuuulllllllaaaaaaaalllllllliiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, then you use the Orcs to actually scare the party....
Set up: there is a massive Orc army, 500-1000 orcs strong marching through the valley. Their sea of bodies has churned the entire valley into mud as they pass, and their green skin makes it appear as if the very forest itself is marching to battle. This army out numbers the friendly dwarves and will slaughter the dwarves and feast on their corpses unless the party stops them. The party can see them coming but have only a few minutes to prepare as the army is quick-marching to attack the dwarves. give them 10 minutes IRL & in-game time to decide what they are doing and any preparation.
Battle Part 1: Orc Army
If the party decide to hide & avoid the army the friendly dwarf camp is massacred (no need to roll anything just narrate them being slaughtered), but the party can conserve their resources for later. Be sure to narrate the dwarves screaming for help etc... to really guilt-trip the players if they choose to allow the dwarves to die.
If the party decides to use the Horn of Valhalla to fight the orc army, then the berserkers fight the main orc army and hold it at bay until the leader of the Orcs - a half-giant x half-orc breaks through the berserkers and attacks the party directly using 1x Purple Worm + 2x Remorhaz that burrow up from the ground underneath the berserkers. This triggers rolling initiative where the players fight the Purple Worm, 2x Remorhaz, Orc Leader, and waves of 10-30 orcs that spill through the gap in the berserker line at the start of each round. Once the players defeat the Purple Worm, Remorhazes and Orc Leader the berserkers are able to keep the rest of the army at bay.
Home Brewed Orc Leader: Use the Storm Giant statblock but remove it's spellcasting feature and instead give it a Bonus Action Dash, and change it to be Large size rather than Huge, and upgrade it's armour & weapon to be comparable to what you have given the player characters.
Battle Part 2: Monster Patrol
Regardless of the party's choice, the BBG sends out a squadron of monsters to patrol & defend his mountain lair because the BBG knows the players are coming (I presume). These monster patrols are fast and flying overhead: Each one includes 3x Ultraloths + 6x Erinyes. Give them a +5 bonus to their Passive Perception due to their vantage point of flying overhead. You can give the players the option to try to sneak past but it should be very difficult for them to succeed at that since these monsters have True Sight so most hiding spells will be useless against them.
Here's the key though: have some Orcs and/or Berserkers survive Battle Part 1, and have one of these scouting parties decide to go kill those berserkers/orcs for fun shortly after the end of Battle Part 1 (i.e. no more than 10 minutes in-game time so no time for the party to SR). Narrate for the players how this scouting party is effortlessly murdering the berserkers/orcs with arrows from 500 ft up in the air, and have one of the Ultraloths incinerate a large portion of them with Fire Storm from 150 ft away from them and just laugh about it (give each Ultraloth 2x castings of Fire Storm to property hurt the players). If the party didn't fight the Orc have this scouting party do the same killing the Remorhaz / Purple Worm for kicks as well.
When the scouting party engages with the players they use similar tactics using their flight and ranged weapons / spells to attack the party from a distance (60-100 ft in the air) - note give the Erinyes advantage on all of their attacks if they are firing down at their target. After the first scout dies have next turn of one of the Ultraloths be spent casting the Gate spell from a scroll to summon either a Beholder or a Death Tyrant (Homebrew it to have 400-500 hit points so it isn't instantly killed) to join them in fighting the party. When the Ultraloths are whittled down to only 1 remaining that one uses Dimension Door to escape and go warn the BBG of the party's imminent attack, and you can add it to the BBG's boss fight - or have it's head on a stick out side the BBG's lair as a warning to the players.
An idea: valley has tall grasses. Orc frontline is in 6 clusters, 4 in each cluster, hiding in the grasses, about 60' out from the party. As the party moves across the valley, the move forward in the same direction, maintaining the 60' distance, but the clusters that would make up the "from behind" move towards each other so that ultimately, they form a circle around the party until the time is right, at which point they move to 30' and then attack (surprise). They intermingle among the Party, thus hindering area effect spells. During the chaos, portals (Endgame-style, as one poster mentioned) open up from numerous directions and in pours other enemy creatures.
The one thing to be wary of “area effect spells” style is the paladin’s “destructive wave”
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What's the highest passive Perception in the party? That seems like a lot of opportunities for the orcs to be spotted before they tighten the noose, even if you're avoiding the BH's danger sense and giving the orcs advantage on Stealth checks or something due to the grass
I'd also be wary of the party seeing the tall grass, immediately expecting an ambush and taking countermeasures. Does the necromancer or paladin have a spell that will kill huge swaths of the grass? Can they just fly over the field and bypass it entirely? (I assume the players have seen, well, any action or horror movie with a field of tall grass)
The one thing you want to avoid is creating a scenario that only works for the bad guys if the players do exactly what you expect them to do. Because players basically never do exactly what you expect them to do
Try to think in terms of subverting the players' expectations. If they see a field of tall grass that screams ambush, put the orcs anywhere else but in the grass. Maybe they've dug little pits under the field like trap-door spiders, waiting to pounce when the party is close enough (and using the tall grass to disguise the covers of their hidey holes, rather than hide themselves.) Maybe sections of the grass are actually some sort of monster that the orcs know to avoid (plenty of plant monsters out there you could repurpose/boost in power), and the ambush is set around the Monster Zone rather than within it, so that raining javelins down might be more effective if the PCs are restrained by vines or just have another, more dangerous foe to worry about at the same time. All kinds of things you can do to set up the players to expect one thing, and then hit them with something else
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)