- the battle takes place on an area approximately the size of Iceland. In there northernmost part of the area is a mountain range, equaling the distance of the Appalachian mountains in Georgia alone. In the south, is a beach, with a total distance extending from the water having an average of 20 meters, stretching the entire southern part of the area. There is an ocean stretching surrounding the island, with the water going on for about 600 meters at 2 miles deep at its deepest. Past the water is an invisible boundary, which no one can pass through. Scattered throughout the island is several average sized bases and towns, with the US occupying the westernmost part of the island, and Zariel’s forces occupying the easternmost part of the island.
- The US can only use any troops, equipment, and vehicles stationed in the 50 states. They do not have any nukes or intercontinental ballistic missiles or nukes, and can only use missiles or artillery that come standard in your average base.
- Zariel only has access to forces under her personal command in Avernus. This means no forces from other layers, any cultists, or mercenaries. Devils can be perma-killed here. Magic is allowed.
Are we using the new "no immunity to PSB" statblock approach from 2024? If so, then military. Even without nukes/ICBMs, the US has the firepower to glass the entire battlefield if they have to, with delivery systems so fast the fiends have no opportunity to react. If the top tier guys are still immune to all mundane damage on top of fire, then naturally they end up carrying the battle based on that immunity.
A quick search of amount of troops stationed in the US said about 1.1 million. Using the cultist stat block as a starter point, mainly because of their resistance to deception or something along those lines, and beefing up their health a bit to 14, originally 9, due to military training and the likely constitution increase, that leads to an average of 15.4 million health army-wide. Then for damage, I used the automatic rifle for the attack. Dealing an average of 9 damage per rifle, that leads to 9.9 million damage per turn of the army was all in one place and firing at the exact same time at one target.
Are we using the new "no immunity to PSB" statblock approach from 2024?
Even if we were, I would say that firing a bullet would somewhat count towards being magical, due to the speed of the bullet. And the fact that bullets are pretty high tech and some are specifically designed for armor piercing.
Zariel loses automatically not because she lacks anti-aircraft forces so much as that she was originally an Angel and therefore not cunning enough to manipulate the Army into engaging in "friendly fire," which is the only likely way to win in this scenario. Heck, if Zariel could manipulate the Army to shell a totally innocent country with Internet access and bunch of video cameras, that might also be called victory because in the long run, as world opinion turns against the Army and they lose economically.
This is a massacre, mainly because most of Zariel's army has been gutted of their most important capabilities. They cannot be brought back to life in hell, losing their ability to sustain themselves on all fronts. They lose important connections that devils rely on, such as from other planar contracts, mercs or under city cultists who could have supplied men and magic.
Not only that, but they are faced against a near continent sized nation's military force, who has better ground vehicles, communication and have bases for jets and attack helicopters. If Avernus's men had the ability to come back then maybe they would stand a chance, but with the limitations given, this version would already lose to the blood war by now, this feels like a spite match.
Zariel loses automatically not because she lacks anti-aircraft forces so much as that she was originally an Angel and therefore not cunning enough to manipulate the Army into engaging in "friendly fire," which is the only likely way to win in this scenario. Heck, if Zariel could manipulate the Army to shell a totally innocent country with Internet access and bunch of video cameras, that might also be called victory because in the long run, as world opinion turns against the Army and they lose economically.
Actually, most devils aren't actually that cunning or manipulative. Bel, the pit fiend that previously ruled Avernus before she did, wasn't a noted manipulator, either. As Avernus is a battleground, most of its rules have been chosen for their leadership in combat rather than their manipulative capabilities.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Zariel loses automatically not because she lacks anti-aircraft forces so much as that she was originally an Angel and therefore not cunning enough to manipulate the Army into engaging in "friendly fire," which is the only likely way to win in this scenario. Heck, if Zariel could manipulate the Army to shell a totally innocent country with Internet access and bunch of video cameras, that might also be called victory because in the long run, as world opinion turns against the Army and they lose economically.
Actually, most devils aren't actually that cunning or manipulative. Bel, the pit fiend that previously ruled Avernus before she did, wasn't a noted manipulator, either. As Avernus is a battleground, most of its rules have been chosen for their leadership in combat rather than their manipulative capabilities.
Well, yeah. That's why they lose. If this were Dispater or Asmodeus and the battle ground was a larger area that forced the US military to setup one or more bases and refuel, resupply, and to actually socialize with the locals sometimes, etc., the devils would have a fair chance at winning. Short-term confrontation means bigger firepower always wins.
So, like similar threads, this can either be seen through the lens of DND rules for damage, hitpoints, action economy - or not. Trying to force assault rifles, fighter jets or radar guided munitions into RAW is (to my mind) laughable, so I'm not taking part in that discussion.
I have no idea what number of troops Zariel can muster, but my logic has always been: There are infinite numbers in hell (avernus, whatever), a slice of infinity is still infinite. But that's propably not constructive for this. So the question is: Does Zariel have enough troops to overrun the Americans? All other considerations are kinda moot - modern military beat infernals hands down, but with limited space to maneuver, sufficient numbers will potentially do the trick. Infernals lose at everything - except melee. If enough demons can move across Iceland, under fire, and make it into melee range ... then the demons win.
But I feel like we need more details. Primarily: How many demons, infernals, are we talking about? How deeply are the Americans dug in. Say the rate is 4:1, infernals to soldiers. If it's just that, the infernals lose no matter what. But what if it's 20:1? 100:1?
At some point, the scale tips. With a solid wall behind you, nowhere left to go, maneuver, retreat to, eventually the ability of a modern military to destroy targets from a safe distance is outscaled by sheer numbers, and if there are enough infernals, they win.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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Here are the ground rules:
- the battle takes place on an area approximately the size of Iceland. In there northernmost part of the area is a mountain range, equaling the distance of the Appalachian mountains in Georgia alone. In the south, is a beach, with a total distance extending from the water having an average of 20 meters, stretching the entire southern part of the area. There is an ocean stretching surrounding the island, with the water going on for about 600 meters at 2 miles deep at its deepest. Past the water is an invisible boundary, which no one can pass through. Scattered throughout the island is several average sized bases and towns, with the US occupying the westernmost part of the island, and Zariel’s forces occupying the easternmost part of the island.
- The US can only use any troops, equipment, and vehicles stationed in the 50 states. They do not have any nukes or intercontinental ballistic missiles or nukes, and can only use missiles or artillery that come standard in your average base.
- Zariel only has access to forces under her personal command in Avernus. This means no forces from other layers, any cultists, or mercenaries. Devils can be perma-killed here. Magic is allowed.
Are we using the new "no immunity to PSB" statblock approach from 2024? If so, then military. Even without nukes/ICBMs, the US has the firepower to glass the entire battlefield if they have to, with delivery systems so fast the fiends have no opportunity to react. If the top tier guys are still immune to all mundane damage on top of fire, then naturally they end up carrying the battle based on that immunity.
Zariel sends invisible imps to assassinate the leadership.
A quick search of amount of troops stationed in the US said about 1.1 million. Using the cultist stat block as a starter point, mainly because of their resistance to deception or something along those lines, and beefing up their health a bit to 14, originally 9, due to military training and the likely constitution increase, that leads to an average of 15.4 million health army-wide. Then for damage, I used the automatic rifle for the attack. Dealing an average of 9 damage per rifle, that leads to 9.9 million damage per turn of the army was all in one place and firing at the exact same time at one target.
Even if we were, I would say that firing a bullet would somewhat count towards being magical, due to the speed of the bullet. And the fact that bullets are pretty high tech and some are specifically designed for armor piercing.
Zariel's forces have no anti-aircraft capability. Sustained carpet bombing wins.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Zariel loses automatically not because she lacks anti-aircraft forces so much as that she was originally an Angel and therefore not cunning enough to manipulate the Army into engaging in "friendly fire," which is the only likely way to win in this scenario. Heck, if Zariel could manipulate the Army to shell a totally innocent country with Internet access and bunch of video cameras, that might also be called victory because in the long run, as world opinion turns against the Army and they lose economically.
This is a massacre, mainly because most of Zariel's army has been gutted of their most important capabilities. They cannot be brought back to life in hell, losing their ability to sustain themselves on all fronts. They lose important connections that devils rely on, such as from other planar contracts, mercs or under city cultists who could have supplied men and magic.
Not only that, but they are faced against a near continent sized nation's military force, who has better ground vehicles, communication and have bases for jets and attack helicopters. If Avernus's men had the ability to come back then maybe they would stand a chance, but with the limitations given, this version would already lose to the blood war by now, this feels like a spite match.
Actually, most devils aren't actually that cunning or manipulative. Bel, the pit fiend that previously ruled Avernus before she did, wasn't a noted manipulator, either. As Avernus is a battleground, most of its rules have been chosen for their leadership in combat rather than their manipulative capabilities.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Well, yeah. That's why they lose. If this were Dispater or Asmodeus and the battle ground was a larger area that forced the US military to setup one or more bases and refuel, resupply, and to actually socialize with the locals sometimes, etc., the devils would have a fair chance at winning. Short-term confrontation means bigger firepower always wins.
There are a lot of "ifs" there.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I did say "fair chance" not "I'm putting $500 on the devils winning in the fifth round."
It's more that it's basically an entirely different scenario than the one the OP outlined.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So, like similar threads, this can either be seen through the lens of DND rules for damage, hitpoints, action economy - or not. Trying to force assault rifles, fighter jets or radar guided munitions into RAW is (to my mind) laughable, so I'm not taking part in that discussion.
I have no idea what number of troops Zariel can muster, but my logic has always been: There are infinite numbers in hell (avernus, whatever), a slice of infinity is still infinite. But that's propably not constructive for this. So the question is: Does Zariel have enough troops to overrun the Americans? All other considerations are kinda moot - modern military beat infernals hands down, but with limited space to maneuver, sufficient numbers will potentially do the trick. Infernals lose at everything - except melee. If enough demons can move across Iceland, under fire, and make it into melee range ... then the demons win.
But I feel like we need more details. Primarily: How many demons, infernals, are we talking about? How deeply are the Americans dug in. Say the rate is 4:1, infernals to soldiers. If it's just that, the infernals lose no matter what. But what if it's 20:1? 100:1?
At some point, the scale tips. With a solid wall behind you, nowhere left to go, maneuver, retreat to, eventually the ability of a modern military to destroy targets from a safe distance is outscaled by sheer numbers, and if there are enough infernals, they win.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.