I am here to inquire about your most broken builds, both in RP and combat.
this is NOT encouraged in a casual game, only for the hardcore groups out there who not only want to defeat the BBEG, but wipe the floor with is lice-ridden face, then disintegrate him and burn his dust with holy righteousness.
I will start: 14th level hexblade warlock turn one cast fly, and have your handy bard caste haste on you. turn 2: action 1 fly 120 feet up, hasted action, another 120 feet, bard casts contagion on BBEG. turn 3: cast polymorph into a giant mammoth and bellyflop onto the BBEG dealing the maximum 100d6 falling damage to you and 200d6 to the BBEG for an average of 600 damage.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
emrfish6 is right, unfortunately. Here's my thing, though.
Vuman Champion Fighter 18/Divination Wizard 2
Starting Ability Scores: 8 (Str), 14 (Dex), 8 (Con), 13 (Int), 14 (Wis), 13 (Cha). Add 1 to Dex and 1 to Wis using your racial bonuses.
You're gonna need some magic items: a Glaive, +3, an Amulet of Health, a [Tooltip Not Found], and a [magicitem]Potion of Giant Size[/magicitem].
You have 6 ASIs/Feats and one starting feat. Take Resilient in everything you're not already proficient in, as well as Tough, Mage Slayer, and Great Weapon Master.
Your Ability Scores will be (including magic items): 25 (Str), 16 (Dex), 19 (Con), 14 (Int), 16 (Wis), 14 (Cha).
Put Tenser's Transformation on your spell gem, and keep trying to cast it until it sticks. Grab as many friendly Wizards as you need to cast Haste, Mind Blank, True Seeing, Fly, and Enlarge/Reduce (Enlarge) on you, as well as one to toss you a 7th level Shadow Blade (which dissipates at the end of the turn, so you still get a turn with it if they hold their action to give it to you). You have 494 hp + 50 thp, advantage on saving throws against spells, and a minimum +8 to all of your saving throws. If you have +3 Plate and a +3 Shield, you have
You can then make 9 attacks in a single round (6 by using action surge, one more from Haste, one more from your reaction if the BBEG is holding his action to cast Light on your turn, and one last if you crit on any of the other 8 attacks).
You are now a gargantuan fighter with advantage on all attacks as well as an expanded critical hit range. Each hit deals 15d8+7 Psychic damage + 2d12 Force damage (6d12 if the Potion of Giant Size applies to Tenser's) +1d4 (3d4 if PoGS applies) Psychic. If you can get a friend to put Contagion on the BBEG, and he fails 3 saves against Flesh Rot, double this damage. If you grab +3 Plate and a +3 Shield, you’ll also have an AC of 30.
(Beyond is being annoying with the magic items. You’ll need a +3 Glaive, an Amulet of Health, a Mantle of Spell Resistance, a Topaz Spell Gem, and a Potion of Giant Size.)
Persuasion, FYI the resilient feat can only be used once. The potion of giant strength can give up to 29 strength however
I am also not convinced a fighter buffed up by a group of wizards is broken as the wizards could do some pretty powerful things as an alternative.
How long does the character need to be "broken" for without the buffs he would die very quickly and I can not imagine a dm giving enough potions to keep your strength up for every combat.
Ah drat. I just assumed Resilient was like Elemental Adept. Well, you're still a big honking fighter that does a lot of damage. My original build was just a standalone character with magic items and no allies, but I saw OP had friendlies so I added mine in as well.
The build was Champion Fighter 17/Barbarian3, and you'd be making 4 attacks at advantage (except for the first turn) with +9 to hit every turn, and 7 if you use action surge.
Replace all the Resilients except for Wis with Str ASIs, starting ability scores are: 13, 14, 8, 12, 14, 12. Add 1 to Str and Wis with racial bonuses.
4 attacks, advantage on all with expanded crit range (19-20). Use GWM, +9 to hit, 1d10+20 damage on a hit, except for the last, which only does 1d4+20. If all hit, then you'll be doing 80 dpr without any dice. You've also got resistance to all damage besides Psychic.
Character 1: Bard (College of Glamour) Character 2: Barbarian (Ancestral Guardian)
the general order is:
Barbarian, during rage, attacks (and hits) a creature.
Bard on their turn uses Mantle of Inspiration. The barbarian moves out of reach of the creature they attack.
On the creature's turn, it must either move to attack the barbarian, provoking AoOs, or have disadvantage on its attacks against other creatures, and they have resistance to all damage dealt by it.
Skill monkey: half elf (any 2), rogue scout 4 (4 rogue, 2 expertise, nature and survival expertise for 6), bard lore 4 (1 bard, any 3, 2 expertise for 4), skilled (any 3), prodigy (any 1, 1 expertise). By level 8 you have: proficiency in 16 out of 18 skills, expertise in 7, and Jack of all trades for last 2. Ending bard 14/rogue 6 gets you 2 more expertise and peerless skill to add a bonus d10 to checks. Ending rogue 11/bard 9 trades peerless skill and some spell levels for reliable talent.
Cantripist: any race with innate spells, celestial warlock 3 (2 warlock cantrips, light, sacred flame), pact of tome (any 3)/Sorcerer divine soul X (start with 4 sorcerer/cleric cantrips). 12 cantrips at level 4, at level 7 grab magic initiate (bard probably) to bring it up to 15. Build also benefits from being a sorlock and can go coffeelock with it.
Skill monkey: half elf (any 2), rogue scout 4 (4 rogue, 2 expertise, nature and survival expertise for 6), bard lore 4 (1 bard, any 3, 2 expertise for 4), skilled (any 3), prodigy (any 1, 1 expertise). By level 8 you have: proficiency in 16 out of 18 skills, expertise in 7, and Jack of all trades for last 2. Ending bard 14/rogue 6 gets you 2 more expertise and peerless skill to add a bonus d10 to checks. Ending rogue 11/bard 9 trades peerless skill and some spell levels for reliable talent.
I’ve never been a fan of Reliable Talent. Statistically, it edges up your average 10.5 on a d20 to 12.75. But then we have to consider... if you roll a 10 and your Proficiency bonus is less than 5... would it ever succeed anyways? Does having a bottom end help much at all in that sense?
If you have half-proficiency in the skill you’re sitting around 13 minimum score at level 20, maybe 15 if you have some stat bonus. But at the end of the day, at level 20 there aren’t many DC 15 obstacles.
12.75 + 3.41 standard deviation vs 10.5 + 5.76 standard deviation... that means the likely score for both rolls with AND without Reliable Talent still peaks at 16.26, exactly the same. It’s all an illusion. 🙂
I’ve never been a fan of Reliable Talent. Statistically, it edges up your average 10.5 on a d20 to 12.75. But then we have to consider... if you roll a 10 and your Proficiency bonus is less than 5... would it ever succeed anyways? Does having a bottom end help much at all in that sense?
Maybe I'm reading reliable talent wrong, but you usually also get to add ability score modifiers to your ability checks. At high levels you will likely have significant bonuses from your ability scores that you've pumped up. Also you didn't factor in expertise. At 11th level, a rogue with reliable talent will have several checks that they can't get below a 23 (10+5+4+4).
Skill monkey: half elf (any 2), rogue scout 4 (4 rogue, 2 expertise, nature and survival expertise for 6), bard lore 4 (1 bard, any 3, 2 expertise for 4), skilled (any 3), prodigy (any 1, 1 expertise). By level 8 you have: proficiency in 16 out of 18 skills, expertise in 7, and Jack of all trades for last 2. Ending bard 14/rogue 6 gets you 2 more expertise and peerless skill to add a bonus d10 to checks. Ending rogue 11/bard 9 trades peerless skill and some spell levels for reliable talent.
I’ve never been a fan of Reliable Talent. Statistically, it edges up your average 10.5 on a d20 to 12.75. But then we have to consider... if you roll a 10 and your Proficiency bonus is less than 5... would it ever succeed anyways? Does having a bottom end help much at all in that sense?
If you have half-proficiency in the skill you’re sitting around 13 minimum score at level 20, maybe 15 if you have some stat bonus. But at the end of the day, at level 20 there aren’t many DC 15 obstacles.
12.75 + 3.41 standard deviation vs 10.5 + 5.76 standard deviation... that means the likely score for both rolls with AND without Reliable Talent still peaks at 16.26, exactly the same. It’s all an illusion. 🙂
The build I just showcased only has half proficiency in 2 skills (presumably the 2 they needed the least). So with reliable talent a 16-17 minimum is almost guaranteed. They also have 9 expertise (22 minimum) to put into whatever they have low abilities for.
But if you don't like reliable talent, use the peerless skill version I mentioned first. I think that one is better for the 5 spellcaster levels anyway.
Skill monkey: half elf (any 2), rogue scout 4 (4 rogue, 2 expertise, nature and survival expertise for 6), bard lore 4 (1 bard, any 3, 2 expertise for 4), skilled (any 3), prodigy (any 1, 1 expertise). By level 8 you have: proficiency in 16 out of 18 skills, expertise in 7, and Jack of all trades for last 2. Ending bard 14/rogue 6 gets you 2 more expertise and peerless skill to add a bonus d10 to checks. Ending rogue 11/bard 9 trades peerless skill and some spell levels for reliable talent.
I’ve never been a fan of Reliable Talent. Statistically, it edges up your average 10.5 on a d20 to 12.75. But then we have to consider... if you roll a 10 and your Proficiency bonus is less than 5... would it ever succeed anyways? Does having a bottom end help much at all in that sense?
If you have half-proficiency in the skill you’re sitting around 13 minimum score at level 20, maybe 15 if you have some stat bonus. But at the end of the day, at level 20 there aren’t many DC 15 obstacles.
12.75 + 3.41 standard deviation vs 10.5 + 5.76 standard deviation... that means the likely score for both rolls with AND without Reliable Talent still peaks at 16.26, exactly the same. It’s all an illusion. 🙂
The build I just showcased only has half proficiency in 2 skills (presumably the 2 they needed the least). So with reliable talent a 16-17 minimum is almost guaranteed. They also have 9 expertise (22 minimum) to put into whatever they have low abilities for.
But if you don't like reliable talent, use the peerless skill version I mentioned first. I think that one is better for the 5 spellcaster levels anyway.
Yeah, I agree. But my point being, at those high levels having 16/17 minimum won’t make a huge difference. Most DCs will be 20, and therefore Reliable Talent is wasted. YMMV.
I would definitely go the peerless skill route. :)
Skill monkey: half elf (any 2), rogue scout 4 (4 rogue, 2 expertise, nature and survival expertise for 6), bard lore 4 (1 bard, any 3, 2 expertise for 4), skilled (any 3), prodigy (any 1, 1 expertise). By level 8 you have: proficiency in 16 out of 18 skills, expertise in 7, and Jack of all trades for last 2. Ending bard 14/rogue 6 gets you 2 more expertise and peerless skill to add a bonus d10 to checks. Ending rogue 11/bard 9 trades peerless skill and some spell levels for reliable talent.
I’ve never been a fan of Reliable Talent. Statistically, it edges up your average 10.5 on a d20 to 12.75. But then we have to consider... if you roll a 10 and your Proficiency bonus is less than 5... would it ever succeed anyways? Does having a bottom end help much at all in that sense?
If you have half-proficiency in the skill you’re sitting around 13 minimum score at level 20, maybe 15 if you have some stat bonus. But at the end of the day, at level 20 there aren’t many DC 15 obstacles.
12.75 + 3.41 standard deviation vs 10.5 + 5.76 standard deviation... that means the likely score for both rolls with AND without Reliable Talent still peaks at 16.26, exactly the same. It’s all an illusion. 🙂
The build I just showcased only has half proficiency in 2 skills (presumably the 2 they needed the least). So with reliable talent a 16-17 minimum is almost guaranteed. They also have 9 expertise (22 minimum) to put into whatever they have low abilities for.
But if you don't like reliable talent, use the peerless skill version I mentioned first. I think that one is better for the 5 spellcaster levels anyway.
Yeah, I agree. But my point being, at those high levels having 16/17 minimum won’t make a huge difference. Most DCs will be 20, and therefore Reliable Talent is wasted. YMMV.
I would definitely go the peerless skill route. :)
“Therefore wasted”
when you have that minimum. All it takes is a little “guidance” or “bardic inspiration”. when you don’t have that minimum. When you fail. You guarantee you fail.
Your Mileage May Vary. It just means you might have a different opinion and that’s ok. 🙂
If his build is based on having 7+ in almost every skill, most of the time you won’t even need Reliable Talent, is my point. And if your DCs are 20+ (your DM won’t tell you), would you rather have Reliable Talent and guarantee a 17, or roll the dice and have the option of Peerless Skill (which could would add 5.5-6.5 on average to your roll). All this is before getting help from others.
So, if you go RT: yay, your average roll is 19.75, and your standard deviation puts your normal roll likely from 17 to 23.2. That’s barely a success most of the time on a DC20, just hope your DM doesn’t up it a few points.
Or, go PS. Your normal roll at 17.5, and your standard deviation in between 11.8 and 23.2. Add Peerless Skill (d10) for an average of 5.5... and you have a likely result of 17.3 to 28.7. With a Peerless Skill at d12 your likely result is 18.3 to 29.7. That’s a much more likely success if the DCs hit anything higher than 20.
tldr: RT with a skill at +7 gives you a likely roll of 17-23.2. PS with a +7 and a d12 Bardic Inspiration gives you a likely roll of 18.3-29.7.
Your Mileage May Vary. It just means you might have a different opinion and that’s ok. 🙂
If his build is based on having 7+ in almost every skill, most of the time you won’t even need Reliable Talent, is my point. And if your DCs are 20+ (your DM won’t tell you), would you rather have Reliable Talent and guarantee a 17, or roll the dice and have the option of Peerless Skill (which could would add 5.5-6.5 on average to your roll). All this is before getting help from others.
So, if you go RT: yay, your average roll is 19.75, and your standard deviation puts your normal roll likely from 17 to 23.2. That’s barely a success most of the time on a DC20, just hope your DM doesn’t up it a few points.
Or, go PS. Your normal roll at 17.5, and your standard deviation in between 11.8 and 23.2. Add Peerless Skill (d10) for an average of 5.5... and you have a likely result of 17.3 to 28.7. With a Peerless Skill at d12 your likely result is 18.3 to 29.7. That’s a much more likely success if the DCs hit anything higher than 20.
tldr: RT with a skill at +7 gives you a likely roll of 17-23.2. PS with a +7 and a d12 Bardic Inspiration gives you a likely roll of 18.3-29.7.
Likely 18.3-29.7
but realistically, 9-39
vs reliable talent
likely 17 to 23.2
but realistically, 17-27.
(in your 7+ mod example)
also, rolling 1 die vs rolling 2 die.
sure on average. But you don’t roll the average. Sometimes you roll high, sometimes you roll low. And with PS, the die being not equal as well, low rolls and high rolls aren’t equal either.
you can roll high on your PS die, and low on your normal die, and still fail.
and are all fails weighted equally? That’s dm/campaign dependent. Sometimes bad failing has harsher consequences
dc 20 example. Reliable talent. Has a 35% chance to succeed. And all fails are within close proximity DC and not an epic fail of sorts if your dm/campaign does those.
13-20 on the die.
peerless skill. 1 on d20 and 1-11 on PS are all fails. So that’s 11 combinations there
10 for 2, 9 for 3, 8 for 4 7 for 5 6 for 6 5 for 7 4 for 8 3 for 9 2 for 10 1 for 11. 152 successes out of 240 roll possibilities. Or 63.3% fail rate.
so, it succeeds 1.7% more. In a vacuum. However if there are penalties for failing a DC by 5-10 l, 10+, 15+ etc whatever stuffs. Then that throws a wrench. Additionally peerless skill level 14, 15 for the d12s and there’s a limit to how many you have.
Your Mileage May Vary. It just means you might have a different opinion and that’s ok. 🙂
If his build is based on having 7+ in almost every skill, most of the time you won’t even need Reliable Talent, is my point. And if your DCs are 20+ (your DM won’t tell you), would you rather have Reliable Talent and guarantee a 17, or roll the dice and have the option of Peerless Skill (which could would add 5.5-6.5 on average to your roll). All this is before getting help from others.
So, if you go RT: yay, your average roll is 19.75, and your standard deviation puts your normal roll likely from 17 to 23.2. That’s barely a success most of the time on a DC20, just hope your DM doesn’t up it a few points.
Or, go PS. Your normal roll at 17.5, and your standard deviation in between 11.8 and 23.2. Add Peerless Skill (d10) for an average of 5.5... and you have a likely result of 17.3 to 28.7. With a Peerless Skill at d12 your likely result is 18.3 to 29.7. That’s a much more likely success if the DCs hit anything higher than 20.
tldr: RT with a skill at +7 gives you a likely roll of 17-23.2. PS with a +7 and a d12 Bardic Inspiration gives you a likely roll of 18.3-29.7.
Likely 18.3-29.7
but realistically, 8-39
vs reliable talent
likely 17 to 23.2
but realistically, 17-27.
(in your 7+ mod example)
also, rolling 1 die vs rolling 2 die.
sure on average. But you don’t roll the average. Sometimes you roll high, sometimes you roll low. And with PS, the die being not equal as well, low rolls and high rolls aren’t equal either.
you can roll high on your PS die, and low on your normal die, and still fail.
Huh? Those were statistical averages. There’s a reason I took 1 std dev form the roll, to show the average skill roll over time.
Otherwise, I’m your above example: rolling 17 with RT will happen 50% of the time. Is that “reliable”?
Your Mileage May Vary. It just means you might have a different opinion and that’s ok. 🙂
If his build is based on having 7+ in almost every skill, most of the time you won’t even need Reliable Talent, is my point. And if your DCs are 20+ (your DM won’t tell you), would you rather have Reliable Talent and guarantee a 17, or roll the dice and have the option of Peerless Skill (which could would add 5.5-6.5 on average to your roll). All this is before getting help from others.
So, if you go RT: yay, your average roll is 19.75, and your standard deviation puts your normal roll likely from 17 to 23.2. That’s barely a success most of the time on a DC20, just hope your DM doesn’t up it a few points.
Or, go PS. Your normal roll at 17.5, and your standard deviation in between 11.8 and 23.2. Add Peerless Skill (d10) for an average of 5.5... and you have a likely result of 17.3 to 28.7. With a Peerless Skill at d12 your likely result is 18.3 to 29.7. That’s a much more likely success if the DCs hit anything higher than 20.
tldr: RT with a skill at +7 gives you a likely roll of 17-23.2. PS with a +7 and a d12 Bardic Inspiration gives you a likely roll of 18.3-29.7.
Likely 18.3-29.7
but realistically, 8-39
vs reliable talent
likely 17 to 23.2
but realistically, 17-27.
(in your 7+ mod example)
also, rolling 1 die vs rolling 2 die.
sure on average. But you don’t roll the average. Sometimes you roll high, sometimes you roll low. And with PS, the die being not equal as well, low rolls and high rolls aren’t equal either.
you can roll high on your PS die, and low on your normal die, and still fail.
Huh? Those were statistical averages. There’s a reason I took 1 std dev form the roll, to show the average skill roll over time.
Otherwise, I’m your above example: rolling 17 with RT will happen 50% of the time. Is that “reliable”?
Yes. That’s very reliable. And it’s unlimited. As I mentioned. Vs peerless skill. Which with its only 1.7% more success rate, has a limit to how many times you can do it. Not reliable.
Peerless skill can be done 5 times per long rest yes?
with a 36.7% success rate. So 2/5 we’ll say succeed.
not much different than reliable talent which is still closer to 2/5 success over those same 5 checks. But. If you have to do more than those 5 checks....
the peerless skill is now used up.
(pause for effect) my math is off on peerless success hold on.
okay. Forget the success differences. My math is off on that as I kept doing PS rolls even when unnecessary due to d20 succeeding to begin with.
HOWEVER, it still has 5 uses per long rest, and after that 45% of the time you are guaranenteed less reliable than the rogue.
edit- correct math. PS has a success rate of 59.75% for your 5 attempts.
conclusion: if you need a lot of skill checks. Reliable is more reliable. If your skill checks are between long resets and far and few between. PS. If you need clutch Skill checks. PS has better odds. Ideally, have these 2 people at the same time.
You can use peerless skill 5 times per short rest actually. Bards get font of inspiration at level 5. Also, the average DC ay level 20 is not necessarily 20, some may, most won't.
Also, I gave 2 builds that are both amazing at all skill checks. So they are not perfect at all possible skill checks, neither is any build ever.
And I think that a total average skill roll of 24 is pretty good with reliable talent is pretty good. Only the ones you need the least will have between a +6 and +8, the rest are all +10 or better.
Also, I miscounted skill proficiencies (I think I forgot background), you actually get them all by level 8.
I am here to inquire about your most broken builds, both in RP and combat.
this is NOT encouraged in a casual game, only for the hardcore groups out there who not only want to defeat the BBEG, but wipe the floor with is lice-ridden face, then disintegrate him and burn his dust with holy righteousness.
I will start: 14th level hexblade warlock turn one cast fly, and have your handy bard caste haste on you. turn 2: action 1 fly 120 feet up, hasted action, another 120 feet, bard casts contagion on BBEG. turn 3: cast polymorph into a giant mammoth and bellyflop onto the BBEG dealing the maximum 100d6 falling damage to you and 200d6 to the BBEG for an average of 600 damage.
I would argue against the “hardcore groups” want to min max to essentially race for who rolls best initiative to murderhobo whatever in 1 single attack.
I have played in some “hardcore groups” and we did stuff like:
To level up it had a material component cost, plus a quest, plus a monetary amount.
no armor
modified strength scores. Carry weight is strX5 for normal, 10x for half speed.
all spells have a crit fail fumble table with side effects
injury tables
gauntlet style, not so easy to long rest.
etc etc etc
things were done to make it more challenging and engaging. Not to turn it into a snooze fest where there’s 6 seconds of action 3-4 times a session, and that’s it.
aside from the semantics-
To the topic of “post broken MIN-MAX builds here”
the vast majority of min max builds are broken. As 5e, the way it was designed and made compared to other editions, is more easily broken by min maxing.
point buy, 8,15,8,8,15,15. Rogue. Pick races that modify wis/dex/cha. With magic items that aren’t even hard to acquire, you will still have a 19 str, con, and INT. So, let’s go half elf. +2 cha, +1 dex and wis.
8/16/8/8/16/17. Very easily. Becomes 19/20/19/19/16/20 - with eleven accuracy and 2 more feats of your choice. Or if you don’t want the 2 extra feats.
19/20/19/19/20/20 with eleven accuracy. Any subclass. Doesn’t matter.
edit: LMK if you want an infinite (until the mods or other users report me) number of other broken builds listed. All using point buy or standard array.
hello mes amigos,
I am here to inquire about your most broken builds, both in RP and combat.
this is NOT encouraged in a casual game, only for the hardcore groups out there who not only want to defeat the BBEG, but wipe the floor with is lice-ridden face, then disintegrate him and burn his dust with holy righteousness.
I will start: 14th level hexblade warlock turn one cast fly, and have your handy bard caste haste on you. turn 2: action 1 fly 120 feet up, hasted action, another 120 feet, bard casts contagion on BBEG. turn 3: cast polymorph into a giant mammoth and bellyflop onto the BBEG dealing the maximum 100d6 falling damage to you and 200d6 to the BBEG for an average of 600 damage.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Not to burst your bubble, but fall damage caps at 20d6. It also takes 3 failed saves before the enemy becomes vulnerable to all damage.
emrfish6 is right, unfortunately. Here's my thing, though.
Vuman Champion Fighter 18/Divination Wizard 2
Starting Ability Scores: 8 (Str), 14 (Dex), 8 (Con), 13 (Int), 14 (Wis), 13 (Cha). Add 1 to Dex and 1 to Wis using your racial bonuses.
You're gonna need some magic items: a Glaive, +3, an Amulet of Health, a [Tooltip Not Found], and a [magicitem]Potion of Giant Size[/magicitem].
You have 6 ASIs/Feats and one starting feat. Take Resilient in everything you're not already proficient in, as well as Tough, Mage Slayer, and Great Weapon Master.
Your Ability Scores will be (including magic items): 25 (Str), 16 (Dex), 19 (Con), 14 (Int), 16 (Wis), 14 (Cha).
Put Tenser's Transformation on your spell gem, and keep trying to cast it until it sticks. Grab as many friendly Wizards as you need to cast Haste, Mind Blank, True Seeing, Fly, and Enlarge/Reduce (Enlarge) on you, as well as one to toss you a 7th level Shadow Blade (which dissipates at the end of the turn, so you still get a turn with it if they hold their action to give it to you). You have 494 hp + 50 thp, advantage on saving throws against spells, and a minimum +8 to all of your saving throws. If you have +3 Plate and a +3 Shield, you have
You can then make 9 attacks in a single round (6 by using action surge, one more from Haste, one more from your reaction if the BBEG is holding his action to cast Light on your turn, and one last if you crit on any of the other 8 attacks).
You are now a gargantuan fighter with advantage on all attacks as well as an expanded critical hit range. Each hit deals 15d8+7 Psychic damage + 2d12 Force damage (6d12 if the Potion of Giant Size applies to Tenser's) +1d4 (3d4 if PoGS applies) Psychic. If you can get a friend to put Contagion on the BBEG, and he fails 3 saves against Flesh Rot, double this damage. If you grab +3 Plate and a +3 Shield, you’ll also have an AC of 30.
(Beyond is being annoying with the magic items. You’ll need a +3 Glaive, an Amulet of Health, a Mantle of Spell Resistance, a Topaz Spell Gem, and a Potion of Giant Size.)
yes. point one we played this before the xanathars guide came out, so we had no cap on fall damage. point two we miss read contagion.
I was not being serious for that one, I posted it for lols.
sorry for the non official stuff :)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Persuasion, FYI the resilient feat can only be used once. The potion of giant strength can give up to 29 strength however
I am also not convinced a fighter buffed up by a group of wizards is broken as the wizards could do some pretty powerful things as an alternative.
How long does the character need to be "broken" for without the buffs he would die very quickly and I can not imagine a dm giving enough potions to keep your strength up for every combat.
Ah drat. I just assumed Resilient was like Elemental Adept. Well, you're still a big honking fighter that does a lot of damage. My original build was just a standalone character with magic items and no allies, but I saw OP had friendlies so I added mine in as well.
The build was Champion Fighter 17/Barbarian3, and you'd be making 4 attacks at advantage (except for the first turn) with +9 to hit every turn, and 7 if you use action surge.
Replace all the Resilients except for Wis with Str ASIs, starting ability scores are: 13, 14, 8, 12, 14, 12. Add 1 to Str and Wis with racial bonuses.
4 attacks, advantage on all with expanded crit range (19-20). Use GWM, +9 to hit, 1d10+20 damage on a hit, except for the last, which only does 1d4+20. If all hit, then you'll be doing 80 dpr without any dice. You've also got resistance to all damage besides Psychic.
This one comes online at level 3.
Character 1: Bard (College of Glamour)
Character 2: Barbarian (Ancestral Guardian)
the general order is:
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I got a couple min-max builds:
Skill monkey: half elf (any 2), rogue scout 4 (4 rogue, 2 expertise, nature and survival expertise for 6), bard lore 4 (1 bard, any 3, 2 expertise for 4), skilled (any 3), prodigy (any 1, 1 expertise). By level 8 you have: proficiency in 16 out of 18 skills, expertise in 7, and Jack of all trades for last 2. Ending bard 14/rogue 6 gets you 2 more expertise and peerless skill to add a bonus d10 to checks. Ending rogue 11/bard 9 trades peerless skill and some spell levels for reliable talent.
Cantripist: any race with innate spells, celestial warlock 3 (2 warlock cantrips, light, sacred flame), pact of tome (any 3)/Sorcerer divine soul X (start with 4 sorcerer/cleric cantrips). 12 cantrips at level 4, at level 7 grab magic initiate (bard probably) to bring it up to 15. Build also benefits from being a sorlock and can go coffeelock with it.
I’ve never been a fan of Reliable Talent. Statistically, it edges up your average 10.5 on a d20 to 12.75. But then we have to consider... if you roll a 10 and your Proficiency bonus is less than 5... would it ever succeed anyways? Does having a bottom end help much at all in that sense?
If you have half-proficiency in the skill you’re sitting around 13 minimum score at level 20, maybe 15 if you have some stat bonus. But at the end of the day, at level 20 there aren’t many DC 15 obstacles.
12.75 + 3.41 standard deviation vs 10.5 + 5.76 standard deviation... that means the likely score for both rolls with AND without Reliable Talent still peaks at 16.26, exactly the same. It’s all an illusion. 🙂
Maybe I'm reading reliable talent wrong, but you usually also get to add ability score modifiers to your ability checks. At high levels you will likely have significant bonuses from your ability scores that you've pumped up. Also you didn't factor in expertise. At 11th level, a rogue with reliable talent will have several checks that they can't get below a 23 (10+5+4+4).
The build I just showcased only has half proficiency in 2 skills (presumably the 2 they needed the least). So with reliable talent a 16-17 minimum is almost guaranteed. They also have 9 expertise (22 minimum) to put into whatever they have low abilities for.
But if you don't like reliable talent, use the peerless skill version I mentioned first. I think that one is better for the 5 spellcaster levels anyway.
And either way, you can get enhance ability and skill empowerment.
Yeah, I agree. But my point being, at those high levels having 16/17 minimum won’t make a huge difference. Most DCs will be 20, and therefore Reliable Talent is wasted. YMMV.
I would definitely go the peerless skill route. :)
“Therefore wasted”
when you have that minimum. All it takes is a little “guidance” or “bardic inspiration”. when you don’t have that minimum. When you fail. You guarantee you fail.
what does YMMV mean?
Your Mileage May Vary. It just means you might have a different opinion and that’s ok. 🙂
If his build is based on having 7+ in almost every skill, most of the time you won’t even need Reliable Talent, is my point. And if your DCs are 20+ (your DM won’t tell you), would you rather have Reliable Talent and guarantee a 17, or roll the dice and have the option of Peerless Skill (which could would add 5.5-6.5 on average to your roll). All this is before getting help from others.
So, if you go RT: yay, your average roll is 19.75, and your standard deviation puts your normal roll likely from 17 to 23.2. That’s barely a success most of the time on a DC20, just hope your DM doesn’t up it a few points.
Or, go PS. Your normal roll at 17.5, and your standard deviation in between 11.8 and 23.2. Add Peerless Skill (d10) for an average of 5.5... and you have a likely result of 17.3 to 28.7. With a Peerless Skill at d12 your likely result is 18.3 to 29.7. That’s a much more likely success if the DCs hit anything higher than 20.
tldr: RT with a skill at +7 gives you a likely roll of 17-23.2. PS with a +7 and a d12 Bardic Inspiration gives you a likely roll of 18.3-29.7.
Likely 18.3-29.7
but realistically, 9-39
vs reliable talent
likely 17 to 23.2
but realistically, 17-27.
(in your 7+ mod example)
also, rolling 1 die vs rolling 2 die.
sure on average. But you don’t roll the average. Sometimes you roll high, sometimes you roll low. And with PS, the die being not equal as well, low rolls and high rolls aren’t equal either.
you can roll high on your PS die, and low on your normal die, and still fail.
and are all fails weighted equally? That’s dm/campaign dependent. Sometimes bad failing has harsher consequences
dc 20 example. Reliable talent. Has a 35% chance to succeed. And all fails are within close proximity DC and not an epic fail of sorts if your dm/campaign does those.
13-20 on the die.
peerless skill. 1 on d20 and 1-11 on PS are all fails. So that’s 11 combinations there
10 for 2, 9 for 3, 8 for 4 7 for 5 6 for 6 5 for 7 4 for 8 3 for 9 2 for 10 1 for 11. 152 successes out of 240 roll possibilities. Or 63.3% fail rate.
so, it succeeds 1.7% more. In a vacuum. However if there are penalties for failing a DC by 5-10 l, 10+, 15+ etc whatever stuffs. Then that throws a wrench. Additionally peerless skill level 14, 15 for the d12s and there’s a limit to how many you have.
reliable talent, level 11. No limit.
Huh? Those were statistical averages. There’s a reason I took 1 std dev form the roll, to show the average skill roll over time.
Otherwise, I’m your above example: rolling 17 with RT will happen 50% of the time. Is that “reliable”?
Yes. That’s very reliable. And it’s unlimited. As I mentioned. Vs peerless skill. Which with its only 1.7% more success rate, has a limit to how many times you can do it. Not reliable.
Peerless skill can be done 5 times per long rest yes?
with a 36.7% success rate. So 2/5 we’ll say succeed.
not much different than reliable talent which is still closer to 2/5 success over those same 5 checks. But. If you have to do more than those 5 checks....
the peerless skill is now used up.
(pause for effect) my math is off on peerless success hold on.
okay. Forget the success differences. My math is off on that as I kept doing PS rolls even when unnecessary due to d20 succeeding to begin with.
HOWEVER, it still has 5 uses per long rest, and after that 45% of the time you are guaranenteed less reliable than the rogue.
edit- correct math. PS has a success rate of 59.75% for your 5 attempts.
conclusion: if you need a lot of skill checks. Reliable is more reliable. If your skill checks are between long resets and far and few between. PS. If you need clutch Skill checks. PS has better odds. Ideally, have these 2 people at the same time.
You can use peerless skill 5 times per short rest actually. Bards get font of inspiration at level 5. Also, the average DC ay level 20 is not necessarily 20, some may, most won't.
Also, I gave 2 builds that are both amazing at all skill checks. So they are not perfect at all possible skill checks, neither is any build ever.
And I think that a total average skill roll of 24 is pretty good with reliable talent is pretty good. Only the ones you need the least will have between a +6 and +8, the rest are all +10 or better.
Also, I miscounted skill proficiencies (I think I forgot background), you actually get them all by level 8.
I would argue against the “hardcore groups” want to min max to essentially race for who rolls best initiative to murderhobo whatever in 1 single attack.
I have played in some “hardcore groups” and we did stuff like:
To level up it had a material component cost, plus a quest, plus a monetary amount.
no armor
modified strength scores. Carry weight is strX5 for normal, 10x for half speed.
all spells have a crit fail fumble table with side effects
injury tables
gauntlet style, not so easy to long rest.
etc etc etc
things were done to make it more challenging and engaging. Not to turn it into a snooze fest where there’s 6 seconds of action 3-4 times a session, and that’s it.
aside from the semantics-
To the topic of “post broken MIN-MAX builds here”
the vast majority of min max builds are broken. As 5e, the way it was designed and made compared to other editions, is more easily broken by min maxing.
point buy, 8,15,8,8,15,15. Rogue. Pick races that modify wis/dex/cha. With magic items that aren’t even hard to acquire, you will still have a 19 str, con, and INT. So, let’s go half elf. +2 cha, +1 dex and wis.
8/16/8/8/16/17. Very easily. Becomes 19/20/19/19/16/20 - with eleven accuracy and 2 more feats of your choice. Or if you don’t want the 2 extra feats.
19/20/19/19/20/20 with eleven accuracy. Any subclass. Doesn’t matter.
edit: LMK if you want an infinite (until the mods or other users report me) number of other broken builds listed. All using point buy or standard array.
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