So we are starting a new campaign at level 3 and I've decided on a battle smith artificer. My main drive for making an artificer was that I wanted to play an intelligence-based class that was not a Wizard. Apparently WOTC hates intelligence. The Battle Smith allows me to use INT as my attack and damage stat which is amazing. I now get to hit stuff AND roll investigation. So now I'm trying to plan my build to give myself solid damage while still feeling cool.
Sword and board would probably be more effective, however, esthetically I don't prefer it for this character. I'm thinking about a double-bladed scimitar, taking Magic Initiate as a variant human for hex, and possibly dipping into a level of fighter next level. Tbh, I could see myself multiclassing fighter quite a bit but I'm undecided at this point. Double bladed scimitar does 2d4, and has the bonus attack that polearm masters get with a bonus action. With hex that means I deal 2d4+1d6 with my attack and have an additional 1d4+1d6 attack with my bonus action netting me about 15 points of damage per round. If I dip fighter for the style and take great weapon fighting then I would get to reroll all of those d4s which should make a big difference ( though im not sure about the maths ).
UPDATE: I'm realizing that my steel defender does 1d8+2 damage for my bonus action. Having a weapon that uses up my bonus action could be troublesome. Might be better off with a greatsword, but undecided as to whether or not hex is still worth the feat.
Interested in your thoughts, theories and considerations. Thank you!
If you're planning a character from level 1, then discussion of what Artificer features you'll be passing up at high levels for having taken Fighter levels is probably not relevant. Better to look at Tier 1 (levels 1-4) and 2 (levels 5-10). I'm assuming that you're interested in getting to Artificer 3 as quickly as possible, to become a Battle Smith (and be able to attack with Intelligence). Other than that...
Things you might pick up from a Fighter dip include:
At level 1, a fighting style for +1 AC or +2 damage or [about 1-2 damage]; Heavy Armor proficiency ONLY IF you started as a Fighter at level 1 and not multiclassing into it; requires points have been diverted into Strength or Dex
At level 1, a Bonus Action heal for1d10+[Fighter level] 1/short rest
At level 2, Action Surge 1/short rest
At level 3, a subclass feature
At level 4, a feat
At level 5, extra attack
At level 6, a feat
At level 7, a subclass feature
Things you give up by taking fewer Artificer (Battle Smith) levels:
At level 10, a fourth attunement slot; a fourth infusion slot; two known infusions; a cantrip; 5 Steel Defender HP
At level 9, two 3rd-level spell slots; Arcane Jolt for 2d6 damage or healing 3-5 times/day; 5 Steel Defender HP
At level 8, a feat; 5 steel defender HP
At level 7, Flash of Genius reaction 3-5 times/day; one 2nd-level spell slot; 5 Steel Defender HP
At level 6, Tool Expertise; a third infusion slot; two known infusions; 5 Steel Defender HP
At level 5, Extra Attack; one 1st-level spell slot; two 2nd-level spell slots; 5 Steel Defender HP
At level 4, a feat; 5 steel defender HP
What does this tell me?
If we're talking about your build at level 4, an Artificer 3/Fighter 1 has maybe slightly better AC or +2 damage over the Artificer 4, but has lost a feat and their Steel Defender is a little weaker. They've had to divert points into Strength or Dexterity that the Artificer 4 could be leaving in Wisdom or Charisma if preferred (already assuming that Intelligence and Con are maxed)
Fighter 2 is a strong benchmark to push for for spellcasters, since it so expands teh sorts of spell combos or spell/attack combos you can pull off. An Artificer 8/Fighter 2 has given up or delayed a fourth free magic item, third level slots, Arcane Jolt, a known cantrip, and 10 Steel Defender HP for the privilege of having picked up that Action Surge, Fighting Style, and Second Wind. That may or may not be worth it?
I struggle to imagine the Fighter subclass that's going to significantly increase your damage or defense ovver what you're losing from losing more spell slots and infusion slots as you bleed more Artificer levels.
Battlemaster is the subclass which most directly adds damage, by giving you Combat Superiority d8s you can add onto some attacks. It's a good subclass (and the Maneuvers could easily be skinned as technology gizmos, a la Batman), but I'm really not sure it's worth losing/delaying three levels of Artificer features over to get 4 CS dice/short rest. I think I would stop at Battlemaster 3, or 4 at the most.
Eldritch Knight is the only other subclass I see with any synergy, since it can help patch your missing spell slot progression slightly. But funny enough, an Artificer 7/EK 3 (effective caster level 4 on this table) has the exact same spell slots as an Artificer 7, so it will only help you within 10 levels at Artificer 6/EK 4. I think you'd have to look beyond level 10 to find an Artificer/EK mix that actually provides any potential value, since EK doesn't really have much point in a build other than as a spell slot patch until EK 7.
TLDR? I think a pure Battle Smith is good. A Battle Smith X/Fighter 2 would my next choice. A Battle Smith X/Battle Master 3 would be my third choice. I wouldn't recommend anything else other than that, I think you're losing more than you're gaining by adding more Fighter levels or Fighter levels of a different subclass.
Thank you for the response this was very helpful. I'm quite drawn to the Battlemaster maneuvers, however, I think I'm going to stick it out with straight artificer for a while - But I'm startting to second guess my feat choice. Sentinel would be fun to get free attacks on people who try to hit my defender but probably would not stack that much more damage. Also thinking about magic initiate for booming blade, or Martial Adept.
Just want to mention that, RAW, you can't be V. Human and also use a Double Bladed Scimitar without either a RP explanation, or your DM hand-waving away the bit about non-Elves all but being attacked on sight by Elves for possessing a Double Bladed Scimitar.
Not a big fan of published rules being locked behind setting-specific fluff. Double Bladed Scimitars being specific to Elves is an Eberron thing, entirely irrelevent to any other setting in which those rules might be allowed at the table. Same with battleragers being dwarves, blade dancers being elves, etc etc... there's nothing mechanically imbalanced with opening that feat up to the public.
Artificer is actually quite difficult to dip out of. I'm currently playing a level 7 Battlesmith I started at level 5. I started as a Smith 4/Wizard 1 with the idea that a single wizard level does so much to relieve cantrip pressure and allows for a wide variety of additional spellcasting, and that was a correct assertion on my part. But man, it caused me nigh-physical pain as I leveled up (approaching 8 now, methinks) to see what the straight artificer would've had with even a single extra level at each stage. My Future Trunks Super Endgame-y plan loosely includes a second wizard level to snag the awesome features from either Conjuration or War Magic, but I don't think I can do it until after my eighth artificer level. Even then, feels like a waste to just get a school feature and two more spells instead of pushing towards Magic Item Adept, SSI, Arcane Jolt, and all that Battlesmith goodness. I may well just abandon the extra wizard level and go Smith from here out - and this is after the DM explicitly told me that hand grenades were a perfectly viable thing for a 'Minor Conjuration' to produce.
Depending on how your game handles progression, a level or two of dip won't kill you, but I guarantee it'll hurt. I don't honestly know if fighter is worth it. Wizard opened up a ton of utility and a great deal of extra cantrip selection, which very nicely complimented the Battlesmith's martial abilities. Fighter levels feel more like a minor advance on something the Battlesmith already does well, especially since the actual Revenant Blade feat is mostly superfluous for someone that can enchant the double scimitar and then use Intelligence with it, thus not caring about Finesse.
To answer the half-asked question because I'm just in that kind of mood today:
Probably because outside of the Battlesmith (and even then, to some extent), artificers are the first and only "Magic First" half-caster. The other half-casters, your paladins and rangers and such, are "Martial First" half-casters. They're more concerned with martial combat and ability than with magic; their magical abilities are distinctly secondary to ther Other Stuff.
Artificers flip it the other way; their Other Stuff is secondary to their magical stuff. They're the only half-caster to have spellcasting at level 1, and the only half-caster to naturally gain cantrips. They act more like two-thirds casters than half-casters, so Wizards threw them a bone because having your artificer levels not count towards your Total Spellcaster Level until 2nd, even though the first artificer level gives you spells and cantrips and stuff, doesn't really make sense.
Plus there's also the practical issue if you multiclass into artificer from a non-caster class if their spells slots worked via rounding down then the character would have 1st level spells with no first level spell slots. Technically doable if all your prepared artificer spells were rituals... but it would have been very weird.
The other interesting and uniquely different thing about Artificers is that they are the only caster not allowed to use a Component Pouch, or even a standard Focus. They must use Thieves Tools or any kind of Artisan's Tools as a Focus for their Artificer spells.
It just frustrates me, because rounding fractions down isn't just an effective caster level thing... it's the rule for everything in 5E. Having it work that way for Artificer does more violence to the simplicity of the rules than is worth it.
It just frustrates me, because rounding fractions down isn't just an effective caster level thing... it's the rule for everything in 5E. Having it work that way for Artificer does more violence to the simplicity of the rules than is worth it.
Correction, it is the rule for everything unless otherwise stated.
Jeremy Crawford has actually said, in one of those "Read the PHB" segments he did with Todd a while back, that he wishes he could take the "Always round down" rule back. They almost always print reminders on which way to round anyways, and the fact that 'Always Down' is in the PHB has gotten in their way a few times. it causes issues when they need to round up, a'la Artificer multiclassing.
I wouldn't multiclass out of Artificer. Even though I usually can't make a level three character without at least one level dipping into another class, with Artificer I never found something worth loosing that level.
By picking the right infusions you can pretty much decide to become more martial than martial classes anyways and the level 20 capstone is incredible (not that level 20 exists in the real world, it's just a myth made up by the authors). And Battle Smith also has the Steel Defender that grows more powerful with each Artificer level.
From a story perspective you are already both magical and martial and have access to healing spells, so there really isn't much another class could contribute.
With Magic Initiate keep in mind that Hex is a level 1 spell and you can only cast it once a day, lasting for an hour. So maybe one or two combat encounters. Getting Spell Sniper and picking Fire Bolt will give you damage that scales with your level, ignores cover and casts off intelligence instead of Charisma. Or you could pick Booming Blade / Green Flame Blade with Spell Sniper. Scaling damage, casts off Int and has ten foot reach which forms a nice combo with polearms and warcaster.
Artificer can be quite a potent first level dip for players who plan a dip for wizards. It’s quite competive with the cleric dip. They both keep spell caster slot level progression. They both give access to light armor, medium armor, and shields. They both give access to potent cantrips that a wizard may not have access to, or allow earlier access to overlapping cantrips. Both give access to a few extra rituals spells to prepare, some of which the wizard does not have access to.
Cleric gives always prepared domain spells. 1st level domain features also potentially include heavy armor proficiency, skill proficiencies, expertise, additional languages, bonus healing based on spell level OR target being at 0, additional cantrips, defensive reactions, martial weapon proficiency, reaction based offensive capabilities, no resource stealth buffs, bonus action Weapon attacks, tool proficiency, ability to imbue armor/weapon, ability to sense undead, and the ability to give targets a reaction weapon attack if you affect them with a spell. Prep slots are limited by wisdom though. Also spell save DCs are wisdom, but this can be mitigated by choosing spells that do not rely on spell save DC. Saving throw proficiency is charisma and wisdom. Not quite as good as Artificer starting out in my opinion. While wisdom save proficiency is indeed very useful , I believe the ability to cast concentration spells and increase the odds of keeping concentration to be more important at low levels.
Artificer gives up a lot of the versatility a cleric dip can gain via a domain. What it does do is trade that choice of domain for a more generalized but synergistic set of features based on intelligence. It also gives Constitution save proficiency. It also uses the same spellcasting statistic of intelligence. Increasing your intelligence stat syinergizes with almost every feature gained at first level. Magical tinkering gives quite a bit of flexibility with making minor magical wonders whose benefits can often be combined with leveled spells and cantrips. Also the number of objects you can tinker with increase with intelligence. Access to 4 out of 5 intelligence skills via the class will do well with keeping in line with your wizardly pursuits. The number of spells you can prepare is based on your intelligence, so when your modifier increases your preparations for each class increase too. There are a few spells on the artificer spell list that the wizard does not have access to that boost a wizards capabilities quite a bit. Guidance, magic stone, resistance, spare the dying, thornwhip, cure wounds, faerie fire, purify food and water, and sanctuary. The spells that DO over lap can potentially be prepared and copied into your wizard book if you have the time and coin, or double copies if your DM makes you create scrolls first. The tool proficiency you gain can represent your more grounded studies, ranging from mundane item knowledges to the creation of objects of mundane and magical nature. Another small benefit is choosing multiple expensive equipments at character creation to sell for other equipment. For instance you can choose to have 3 light crossbows with the full intent to trade them out for more equipment later on.
Plus there's also the practical issue if you multiclass into artificer from a non-caster class if their spells slots worked via rounding down then the character would have 1st level spells with no first level spell slots. Technically doable if all your prepared artificer spells were rituals... but it would have been very weird.
Would not use multi class table/rules in this case:
“ If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.”
I personally say id you really want to do something cool you could add samurai. You buff your hitpoints and gain advantage. You could also play a small race riding on the steel defender. If your a kobold samurai 3/ battlesmith X you cause your teammates and yourself to get tons of advantage. Even know your small if you are on the steel defender you can use a lance and shield.
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So we are starting a new campaign at level 3 and I've decided on a battle smith artificer. My main drive for making an artificer was that I wanted to play an intelligence-based class that was not a Wizard. Apparently WOTC hates intelligence. The Battle Smith allows me to use INT as my attack and damage stat which is amazing. I now get to hit stuff AND roll investigation. So now I'm trying to plan my build to give myself solid damage while still feeling cool.
Sword and board would probably be more effective, however, esthetically I don't prefer it for this character. I'm thinking about a double-bladed scimitar, taking Magic Initiate as a variant human for hex, and possibly dipping into a level of fighter next level. Tbh, I could see myself multiclassing fighter quite a bit but I'm undecided at this point. Double bladed scimitar does 2d4, and has the bonus attack that polearm masters get with a bonus action. With hex that means I deal 2d4+1d6 with my attack and have an additional 1d4+1d6 attack with my bonus action netting me about 15 points of damage per round. If I dip fighter for the style and take great weapon fighting then I would get to reroll all of those d4s which should make a big difference ( though im not sure about the maths ).
UPDATE: I'm realizing that my steel defender does 1d8+2 damage for my bonus action. Having a weapon that uses up my bonus action could be troublesome. Might be better off with a greatsword, but undecided as to whether or not hex is still worth the feat.
Interested in your thoughts, theories and considerations. Thank you!
If you're planning a character from level 1, then discussion of what Artificer features you'll be passing up at high levels for having taken Fighter levels is probably not relevant. Better to look at Tier 1 (levels 1-4) and 2 (levels 5-10). I'm assuming that you're interested in getting to Artificer 3 as quickly as possible, to become a Battle Smith (and be able to attack with Intelligence). Other than that...
Things you might pick up from a Fighter dip include:
Things you give up by taking fewer Artificer (Battle Smith) levels:
What does this tell me?
TLDR? I think a pure Battle Smith is good. A Battle Smith X/Fighter 2 would my next choice. A Battle Smith X/Battle Master 3 would be my third choice. I wouldn't recommend anything else other than that, I think you're losing more than you're gaining by adding more Fighter levels or Fighter levels of a different subclass.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'm actually STARTING at level 3 :)
Thank you for the response this was very helpful. I'm quite drawn to the Battlemaster maneuvers, however, I think I'm going to stick it out with straight artificer for a while - But I'm startting to second guess my feat choice. Sentinel would be fun to get free attacks on people who try to hit my defender but probably would not stack that much more damage. Also thinking about magic initiate for booming blade, or Martial Adept.
Just want to mention that, RAW, you can't be V. Human and also use a Double Bladed Scimitar without either a RP explanation, or your DM hand-waving away the bit about non-Elves all but being attacked on sight by Elves for possessing a Double Bladed Scimitar.
Not a big fan of published rules being locked behind setting-specific fluff. Double Bladed Scimitars being specific to Elves is an Eberron thing, entirely irrelevent to any other setting in which those rules might be allowed at the table. Same with battleragers being dwarves, blade dancers being elves, etc etc... there's nothing mechanically imbalanced with opening that feat up to the public.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Artificer is actually quite difficult to dip out of. I'm currently playing a level 7 Battlesmith I started at level 5. I started as a Smith 4/Wizard 1 with the idea that a single wizard level does so much to relieve cantrip pressure and allows for a wide variety of additional spellcasting, and that was a correct assertion on my part. But man, it caused me nigh-physical pain as I leveled up (approaching 8 now, methinks) to see what the straight artificer would've had with even a single extra level at each stage. My Future Trunks Super Endgame-y plan loosely includes a second wizard level to snag the awesome features from either Conjuration or War Magic, but I don't think I can do it until after my eighth artificer level. Even then, feels like a waste to just get a school feature and two more spells instead of pushing towards Magic Item Adept, SSI, Arcane Jolt, and all that Battlesmith goodness. I may well just abandon the extra wizard level and go Smith from here out - and this is after the DM explicitly told me that hand grenades were a perfectly viable thing for a 'Minor Conjuration' to produce.
Depending on how your game handles progression, a level or two of dip won't kill you, but I guarantee it'll hurt. I don't honestly know if fighter is worth it. Wizard opened up a ton of utility and a great deal of extra cantrip selection, which very nicely complimented the Battlesmith's martial abilities. Fighter levels feel more like a minor advance on something the Battlesmith already does well, especially since the actual Revenant Blade feat is mostly superfluous for someone that can enchant the double scimitar and then use Intelligence with it, thus not caring about Finesse.
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I believe artificer 7/ Eldritch Knight 3 would have a caster level of 5 on the chart. Artificer levels for multiclassing are round up.
Rounded up???? Why would only one class be rounded up, when everything else in 5E-
😤 oof you’re right
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
To answer the half-asked question because I'm just in that kind of mood today:
Probably because outside of the Battlesmith (and even then, to some extent), artificers are the first and only "Magic First" half-caster. The other half-casters, your paladins and rangers and such, are "Martial First" half-casters. They're more concerned with martial combat and ability than with magic; their magical abilities are distinctly secondary to ther Other Stuff.
Artificers flip it the other way; their Other Stuff is secondary to their magical stuff. They're the only half-caster to have spellcasting at level 1, and the only half-caster to naturally gain cantrips. They act more like two-thirds casters than half-casters, so Wizards threw them a bone because having your artificer levels not count towards your Total Spellcaster Level until 2nd, even though the first artificer level gives you spells and cantrips and stuff, doesn't really make sense.
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Plus there's also the practical issue if you multiclass into artificer from a non-caster class if their spells slots worked via rounding down then the character would have 1st level spells with no first level spell slots. Technically doable if all your prepared artificer spells were rituals... but it would have been very weird.
The other interesting and uniquely different thing about Artificers is that they are the only caster not allowed to use a Component Pouch, or even a standard Focus. They must use Thieves Tools or any kind of Artisan's Tools as a Focus for their Artificer spells.
It just frustrates me, because rounding fractions down isn't just an effective caster level thing... it's the rule for everything in 5E. Having it work that way for Artificer does more violence to the simplicity of the rules than is worth it.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Correction, it is the rule for everything unless otherwise stated.
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Jeremy Crawford has actually said, in one of those "Read the PHB" segments he did with Todd a while back, that he wishes he could take the "Always round down" rule back. They almost always print reminders on which way to round anyways, and the fact that 'Always Down' is in the PHB has gotten in their way a few times. it causes issues when they need to round up, a'la Artificer multiclassing.
Just as an interesting note.
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I wouldn't multiclass out of Artificer. Even though I usually can't make a level three character without at least one level dipping into another class, with Artificer I never found something worth loosing that level.
By picking the right infusions you can pretty much decide to become more martial than martial classes anyways and the level 20 capstone is incredible (not that level 20 exists in the real world, it's just a myth made up by the authors). And Battle Smith also has the Steel Defender that grows more powerful with each Artificer level.
From a story perspective you are already both magical and martial and have access to healing spells, so there really isn't much another class could contribute.
With Magic Initiate keep in mind that Hex is a level 1 spell and you can only cast it once a day, lasting for an hour. So maybe one or two combat encounters. Getting Spell Sniper and picking Fire Bolt will give you damage that scales with your level, ignores cover and casts off intelligence instead of Charisma. Or you could pick Booming Blade / Green Flame Blade with Spell Sniper. Scaling damage, casts off Int and has ten foot reach which forms a nice combo with polearms and warcaster.
Artificer can be quite a potent first level dip for players who plan a dip for wizards. It’s quite competive with the cleric dip. They both keep spell caster slot level progression. They both give access to light armor, medium armor, and shields. They both give access to potent cantrips that a wizard may not have access to, or allow earlier access to overlapping cantrips. Both give access to a few extra rituals spells to prepare, some of which the wizard does not have access to.
Cleric gives always prepared domain spells. 1st level domain features also potentially include heavy armor proficiency, skill proficiencies, expertise, additional languages, bonus healing based on spell level OR target being at 0, additional cantrips, defensive reactions, martial weapon proficiency, reaction based offensive capabilities, no resource stealth buffs, bonus action Weapon attacks, tool proficiency, ability to imbue armor/weapon, ability to sense undead, and the ability to give targets a reaction weapon attack if you affect them with a spell.
Prep slots are limited by wisdom though. Also spell save DCs are wisdom, but this can be mitigated by choosing spells that do not rely on spell save DC. Saving throw proficiency is charisma and wisdom. Not quite as good as Artificer starting out in my opinion. While wisdom save proficiency is indeed very useful , I believe the ability to cast concentration spells and increase the odds of keeping concentration to be more important at low levels.
Artificer gives up a lot of the versatility a cleric dip can gain via a domain. What it does do is trade that choice of domain for a more generalized but synergistic set of features based on intelligence. It also gives Constitution save proficiency. It also uses the same spellcasting statistic of intelligence. Increasing your intelligence stat syinergizes with almost every feature gained at first level. Magical tinkering gives quite a bit of flexibility with making minor magical wonders whose benefits can often be combined with leveled spells and cantrips. Also the number of objects you can tinker with increase with intelligence. Access to 4 out of 5 intelligence skills via the class will do well with keeping in line with your wizardly pursuits. The number of spells you can prepare is based on your intelligence, so when your modifier increases your preparations for each class increase too. There are a few spells on the artificer spell list that the wizard does not have access to that boost a wizards capabilities quite a bit. Guidance, magic stone, resistance, spare the dying, thornwhip, cure wounds, faerie fire, purify food and water, and sanctuary. The spells that DO over lap can potentially be prepared and copied into your wizard book if you have the time and coin, or double copies if your DM makes you create scrolls first. The tool proficiency you gain can represent your more grounded studies, ranging from mundane item knowledges to the creation of objects of mundane and magical nature. Another small benefit is choosing multiple expensive equipments at character creation to sell for other equipment. For instance you can choose to have 3 light crossbows with the full intent to trade them out for more equipment later on.
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Would not use multi class table/rules in this case:
“ If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.”
i say, do what you find the the most fun to play.
I personally say id you really want to do something cool you could add samurai. You buff your hitpoints and gain advantage. You could also play a small race riding on the steel defender. If your a kobold samurai 3/ battlesmith X you cause your teammates and yourself to get tons of advantage. Even know your small if you are on the steel defender you can use a lance and shield.