So - this will probably end up being spoilery for the rest of my PbP players (and those of you who may be keeping up with the game thread) especially with 2 mods in my game so if you don't want to know - go away :P
My entire party have found themselves trapped in the Fey, something happened and now my characters alignment has changed from chaotic neutral to lawful evil and I'm having a hard time trying to RP this change. Before he was basically a kender from Dragonlance crossed with my best friends 5 year old son. So he was super curious, always asking questions, rambling on about stuff, etc However now that he's supposed to be Lawful Evil - I'm having a hard time justifying that behavior anymore - which means changing up how he's played. I've done google searches for examples of Lawful Evil - Darth Vader comes up a lot - Vader doesn't have the whimsical child-like curiosity that my character had - I'm ok with changing that aspect of him.
So I guess I'm asking for tips or suggestions of how you might RP a lawfully evil character.
That's a pretty hard shift for a character midway through life - alignment shifts are rare and tend to be one step along the legality/morality axis. Without knowing why this happened, it sounds a bit silly really. But feywild has a way of doing that, so let's roll with it.
Keep in mind your alignment is descriptive, not presciptive - it suggests motives for your actions, and does not determine your actions. It doesn't necessarily change your personality, but it should colour your interactions and motivations. Evil alignments are usually avoided in D&D groups, though this rule is occasionally relaxed for Lawful Evil characters who can at least be depended on to "go along to get along" - keep this in mind as you play, and be nefarious rather than disruptively cruel.
The key to Lawful Evil is, essentially, a perversion of law: acting within the boundaries of the law and/or abusing the word of law for one's own nefarious ends. They join the city watch so they can boss people around; lord their wealth and power over others; or simply hoard treasure, contacts, or knowledge in order to use it selfishly later. So your character might continue to be curious, but now does so in order to gain an upper hand by collecting information and harmful gossip. Rambling is now used to put others on their back foot in conversation, to make them think your character is more foolish than they are. If they steal or commit minor crimes, it is no longer because they value their independence, but because others' ignorance is meant to be exploited as long as one can get away with it. Actions which before were done out of whimsy are now calculated, and everything is done in service of gaining power - because the powerful get to determine the rules.
Well it involved a ley line and a machine and an explosion - the alignment change was left to the fate of the dice - and well - the dice roller here tends to hate players it seems hehe
My dilemma (and I thank you ratwhowouldbeking for your insight it really helped) is that I personally find lawful evil to be probably the hardest to play.
Well it involved a ley line and a machine and an explosion - the alignment change was left to the fate of the dice - and well - the dice roller here tends to hate players it seems hehe
My dilemma (and I thank you ratwhowouldbeking for your insight it really helped) is that I personally find lawful evil to be probably the hardest to play.
Lawful Evil is easy. Whatever your character's motivations are, you pursue them even if it has to come at the expense of others. But because of the "lawful" part, you have limits; there's some rules you don't break. Maybe they're cultural, maybe they're tied to the organization you belong to, your race, or it's just a particular strongly-held belief.
Basically, throw away your empathy and think of some boundaries your character won't cross.
Lawful evil is hard. Think about the middle people in a tyrannical society. They follow orders to kill, torture, etc. to stay alive and advance. They replace personal morals with the state is right and must be protected at all costs. Devil's fight others for position, but always protect the nine hells first. They set aside any differences to make sure they win the blood wars first, then spend the time left making sure they come out higher when the war is won.
The hard part is your character did not have an organization, cause, etc that it can now become fanatic about. So maybe you play it like a revelation. Some cause, unseelie fey, etc that you never understood before now makes sense! You were foolish to not see it before, but now you will do anything to make sure it is advanced. You are embarrassed how silly and frivolous you were before... Now, you have a plan and a reason. No step is to much, if it advances your cause. Ruthless is your tool, and not only will you win, but you will come out on top and be rewarded for you single minded and ruthless pursuit of the goal.
You're right. Very tough! I never allow things that forever alignment change as a DM. But jump in and make of it what you can! Good luck!
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Lawful evil is hard. Think about the middle people in a tyrannical society. They follow orders to kill, torture, etc. to stay alive and advance. They replace personal morals with the state is right and must be protected at all costs. Devil's fight others for position, but always protect the nine hells first. They set aside any differences to make sure they win the blood wars first, then spend the time left making sure they come out higher when the war is won.
The hard part is your character did not have an organization, cause, etc that it can now become fanatic about. So maybe you play it like a revelation. Some cause, unseelie fey, etc that you never understood before now makes sense! You were foolish to not see it before, but now you will do anything to make sure it is advanced. You are embarrassed how silly and frivolous you were before... Now, you have a plan and a reason. No step is to much, if it advances your cause. Ruthless is your tool, and not only will you win, but you will come out on top and be rewarded for you single minded and ruthless pursuit of the goal.
You're right. Very tough! I never allow things that forever alignment change as a DM. But jump in and make of it what you can! Good luck!
I think your definition of Lawful Evil is way too narrow.
Lawful evil (LE) creatures methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. Devils, blue dragons, and hobgoblins are lawful evil.
"methodically take what [you] want" doesn't mean you have to be a murderer or rapist, and "within the limits of a code" doesn't mean you have to formally belong to an organization, much less have fanatical devotion to it. Blue Dragons don't fit your definition well; they mostly work alone and they're in it for themselves.
If you look at the good, neutral, and evil alignments, good creatures proactively look for opportunities to help others and evil creatures are willing to hurt others to get what they want. There's a looooot of variation within those categories. A saint is good, but so is the guy that volunteers at a soup kitchen on weekends. Nazis are evil, but so's the school bully that takes other kids' lunch money, the college guy that rapes drunk girls and the politicians that gut health care to give the rich a tax cut. Society is full of people that do objectively bad things but otherwise seem like perfectly normal people.
Likewise, lawfulness isn't always a matter of fanaticism or blind obedience. The guy who still obeys the "Keep off the grass" sign even though he's late and doing it once won't hurt much is lawful. The idea of following the rules is important to lawful people, even when the outcome of breaking them on a particular occasion is insignificant. A lawful person knows that if everyone chose to break the rule, the outcome would be bad, and if they make an exception for themselves, so can everyone else. Conversely, a chaotic person feels completely justified in breaking any rules if it'll yield a good outcome for them. A neutral person will be pragmatic and might cut across the grass because even if everyone did it, it's not that big of a deal, but they wouldn't try to skip on their or litter because if everyone did that, the consequences are a lot more dire. Of course some people are also more lawful or chaotic than others.
You don't have to take evil or lawfulness to their extremes to qualify as either, and people with the same alignment can still vary wildly in personality, motivations, flaws, and what particular set of rules they choose to hold themselves to.
Of course some people are also more lawful or chaotic than others.
And some, like me, are both. Humans are . . . aggravatingly complicated.
You don't have to take evil or lawfulness to their extremes to qualify as either, and people with the same alignment can still vary wildly in personality, motivations, flaws, and what particular set of rules they choose to hold themselves to.
Exactly right.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Evil has a religious element too. Maybe he starts praying to an evil deity, strikes a deal with a devil, suggests that the party start doing business with an evil cult.
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Admin on MeWe's Conservative D&D Players group, but I believe that no matter what our differences are, our love of D&D is something that should bring us together. So, if you don't start something I won't either. Fair enough?
Method Actor, Storyteller, Tactician type who plays peacemaker at the table. This fall will be my 39th year playing D&D, Gamma World, Car Wars, Talisman, Serenity and Traveller.
Evil has a religious element too. Maybe he starts praying to an evil deity, strikes a deal with a devil, suggests that the party start doing business with an evil cult.
Not a bad suggestion, suddenly when encountering 'less than good' entities, you may think this is something you can work with and can be of use. The good party members just see a Lich, but you might see a potent ally to get you things you feel you 'need'. This could be especially true of some of the goblinoid races, yeah they are nasty vicious creatures, but if you can send them at the enemies its for the greater good of the kingdom/law of the land. So maybe you don't punish them for sacking a village, instead you conscript them into your own forces. Why throw away a perfectly good weapon.
I do recall seeing a lot of thematic language around domination, conquest, and slavery regarding lawful evil. If you are looking for how do you get your normal actions to reflect this growing change, maybe you snap at people and belittle them when they have a bad idea. Be forceful with taverns demanding they serve you because you are a frickin hero and deserve to be served first. Maybe you kick the 'layabout' homeless boy instead of giving a gift, and tell him to keep moving as it is illegal to beg on the streets of the lords city. The strongarm of the law type scenario that enforces regulations regardless of the misfortune it might inflict.
Forced alignment change is difficult, as was mentioned earlier it doesn't give you a chance to come up of with a frame of reference for how your character now acts.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I feel like you could keep some of his core character traits, but twist them violently to fit the new alignment. So he used to be chaotically curious and questioning? Well now he still questions, but because this idea has burrowed into his brain that lying and secrecy are wrong and dangerous, "what are they hiding, these liars and false friends". A lawful obsession with uncovering truth has rendered him paranoid and intrusive, but honest. He used to be Neutral and whimsical? Well now that whimsy has slipped into an Evil and selfish callousness. What was previously a merry disregard for consequence has lost all link with empathy. Might you torture a small animal and then not understand why people seem horrified? Maybe. A strong personal drive could exist as he struggles to remember how life used to be before this change, and he would do anything to go back to being that person, but he fails to understand that by sacrificing the welfare of others in his quest to return to his former self, he is only slipping further and further away.
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So - this will probably end up being spoilery for the rest of my PbP players (and those of you who may be keeping up with the game thread) especially with 2 mods in my game so if you don't want to know - go away :P
My entire party have found themselves trapped in the Fey, something happened and now my characters alignment has changed from chaotic neutral to lawful evil and I'm having a hard time trying to RP this change. Before he was basically a kender from Dragonlance crossed with my best friends 5 year old son. So he was super curious, always asking questions, rambling on about stuff, etc However now that he's supposed to be Lawful Evil - I'm having a hard time justifying that behavior anymore - which means changing up how he's played. I've done google searches for examples of Lawful Evil - Darth Vader comes up a lot - Vader doesn't have the whimsical child-like curiosity that my character had - I'm ok with changing that aspect of him.
So I guess I'm asking for tips or suggestions of how you might RP a lawfully evil character.
Skameros - Bugbear Barbarian - Out of the Abyss - By Kerrec
Follow your Arrow where it Points - Tabaxi Monk - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy)
Citron Pumpkinfoam - Fairy Monk - Project Point: Team Longsword
That's a pretty hard shift for a character midway through life - alignment shifts are rare and tend to be one step along the legality/morality axis. Without knowing why this happened, it sounds a bit silly really. But feywild has a way of doing that, so let's roll with it.
Keep in mind your alignment is descriptive, not presciptive - it suggests motives for your actions, and does not determine your actions. It doesn't necessarily change your personality, but it should colour your interactions and motivations. Evil alignments are usually avoided in D&D groups, though this rule is occasionally relaxed for Lawful Evil characters who can at least be depended on to "go along to get along" - keep this in mind as you play, and be nefarious rather than disruptively cruel.
The key to Lawful Evil is, essentially, a perversion of law: acting within the boundaries of the law and/or abusing the word of law for one's own nefarious ends. They join the city watch so they can boss people around; lord their wealth and power over others; or simply hoard treasure, contacts, or knowledge in order to use it selfishly later. So your character might continue to be curious, but now does so in order to gain an upper hand by collecting information and harmful gossip. Rambling is now used to put others on their back foot in conversation, to make them think your character is more foolish than they are. If they steal or commit minor crimes, it is no longer because they value their independence, but because others' ignorance is meant to be exploited as long as one can get away with it. Actions which before were done out of whimsy are now calculated, and everything is done in service of gaining power - because the powerful get to determine the rules.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Well it involved a ley line and a machine and an explosion - the alignment change was left to the fate of the dice - and well - the dice roller here tends to hate players it seems hehe
My dilemma (and I thank you ratwhowouldbeking for your insight it really helped) is that I personally find lawful evil to be probably the hardest to play.
Skameros - Bugbear Barbarian - Out of the Abyss - By Kerrec
Follow your Arrow where it Points - Tabaxi Monk - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy)
Citron Pumpkinfoam - Fairy Monk - Project Point: Team Longsword
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Lawful evil is hard. Think about the middle people in a tyrannical society. They follow orders to kill, torture, etc. to stay alive and advance. They replace personal morals with the state is right and must be protected at all costs. Devil's fight others for position, but always protect the nine hells first. They set aside any differences to make sure they win the blood wars first, then spend the time left making sure they come out higher when the war is won.
The hard part is your character did not have an organization, cause, etc that it can now become fanatic about. So maybe you play it like a revelation. Some cause, unseelie fey, etc that you never understood before now makes sense! You were foolish to not see it before, but now you will do anything to make sure it is advanced. You are embarrassed how silly and frivolous you were before... Now, you have a plan and a reason. No step is to much, if it advances your cause. Ruthless is your tool, and not only will you win, but you will come out on top and be rewarded for you single minded and ruthless pursuit of the goal.
You're right. Very tough! I never allow things that forever alignment change as a DM. But jump in and make of it what you can! Good luck!
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
"methodically take what [you] want" doesn't mean you have to be a murderer or rapist, and "within the limits of a code" doesn't mean you have to formally belong to an organization, much less have fanatical devotion to it. Blue Dragons don't fit your definition well; they mostly work alone and they're in it for themselves.
If you look at the good, neutral, and evil alignments, good creatures proactively look for opportunities to help others and evil creatures are willing to hurt others to get what they want. There's a looooot of variation within those categories. A saint is good, but so is the guy that volunteers at a soup kitchen on weekends. Nazis are evil, but so's the school bully that takes other kids' lunch money, the college guy that rapes drunk girls and the politicians that gut health care to give the rich a tax cut. Society is full of people that do objectively bad things but otherwise seem like perfectly normal people.
Likewise, lawfulness isn't always a matter of fanaticism or blind obedience. The guy who still obeys the "Keep off the grass" sign even though he's late and doing it once won't hurt much is lawful. The idea of following the rules is important to lawful people, even when the outcome of breaking them on a particular occasion is insignificant. A lawful person knows that if everyone chose to break the rule, the outcome would be bad, and if they make an exception for themselves, so can everyone else. Conversely, a chaotic person feels completely justified in breaking any rules if it'll yield a good outcome for them. A neutral person will be pragmatic and might cut across the grass because even if everyone did it, it's not that big of a deal, but they wouldn't try to skip on their or litter because if everyone did that, the consequences are a lot more dire. Of course some people are also more lawful or chaotic than others.
You don't have to take evil or lawfulness to their extremes to qualify as either, and people with the same alignment can still vary wildly in personality, motivations, flaws, and what particular set of rules they choose to hold themselves to.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
And some, like me, are both. Humans are . . . aggravatingly complicated.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
The way to RP a drastic sudden alignment shift ultimately comes down to this one question:
What are you willing to do to get what you want?
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Evil has a religious element too. Maybe he starts praying to an evil deity, strikes a deal with a devil, suggests that the party start doing business with an evil cult.
Admin on MeWe's Conservative D&D Players group, but I believe that no matter what our differences are, our love of D&D is something that should bring us together. So, if you don't start something I won't either. Fair enough?
Method Actor, Storyteller, Tactician type who plays peacemaker at the table. This fall will be my 39th year playing D&D, Gamma World, Car Wars, Talisman, Serenity and Traveller.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I feel like you could keep some of his core character traits, but twist them violently to fit the new alignment. So he used to be chaotically curious and questioning? Well now he still questions, but because this idea has burrowed into his brain that lying and secrecy are wrong and dangerous, "what are they hiding, these liars and false friends". A lawful obsession with uncovering truth has rendered him paranoid and intrusive, but honest. He used to be Neutral and whimsical? Well now that whimsy has slipped into an Evil and selfish callousness. What was previously a merry disregard for consequence has lost all link with empathy. Might you torture a small animal and then not understand why people seem horrified? Maybe. A strong personal drive could exist as he struggles to remember how life used to be before this change, and he would do anything to go back to being that person, but he fails to understand that by sacrificing the welfare of others in his quest to return to his former self, he is only slipping further and further away.