The main attraction of the Dual Wielder feat is not the +1 AC, it is removing the restriction of having to use Light weapons so we can all channel our inner Gandalfs and run around with a staff and sword :)
You have to keep in mind that 1) slasher and crusher also give an str boost and 2) it’s easy to swap out slasher for HAM or some other +1 str feat, to taste, like I said. The more important one is crusher. Slasher is just to build onto the theme a bit.
Hex on a dual wield build would of course be really good. Going by the RAW, I don’t think hexblades can get two CHA based weapons though, despite the Crawford tweet about allowing it at his table. But sure, a dip into hexblade would probably help too.
I tend to agree with Scatterbraind that piling on these half-feats is not the best use of them. For me, it's because half-feats are best when you're rounding up an odd score. Using two to get a +1 in strength seems wasteful and slow.
There is also an odd bit to the synergy you're after. If you want to try and crit-fish with your crusher weapon then you will be making all attacks with it first. If you want to push them, that means pushing them before your slasher attack, when ideally you'd be slashing them to reduce movement and then pushing them away before scooting out of there (see Brewksy's strat in their post). I would drop the desire to proc the second part of crusher if combining crusher and slasher is the goal.
TheLonelyMagi your bladesinger build is pretty cool, but also incredibly MAD. Strength for weapons, Dex for light armor AC, Con because you're a melee build, and Int for all things Bladesinger. It's a nice synergy you've built, but I think the character in practice would suffer greatly because of how strained its stats are.
Personally I don't think Dual Wielder is necessary at all, and honestly a bit of a trap. +1 damage per attack and +1 AC is completely fine, but I think the main strength to dual wielding is that it provides a bonus action attack without requiring any sort of feat. Investing in dual wielder undoes that.
I'm a big fan of barbarian and paladin for this archetype, using a fighter dip to pick up the two-weapon fighting style and action surge. Going to agree with Scatterbraind again that finding ways to stack damage on each hit is important to making the style work. Barbarian has rage damage and reckless attacks while paladin can cast divine favor (better than hunter's mark for bonus action heavy builds IMO) and smites for when you want to get really spicy.
You have to give something up when you multiclass Bladesinger. In my case I am perfectly fine with giving up Bladesong and just rolling with heavy armor. The main attraction of the Dual Wielder feat is not the +1 AC, it is removing the restriction of having to use Light weapons so we can all channel our inner Gandalfs and run around with a staff and sword :)
And if I were to use point buy to build my character I would probably go something like this:
VHuman
Bonus feat: Crusher (Constitution)
Strength 16 (15 + 1 from racial) Dexterity 8 Constitution 14 (13+1 from feat) Intelligence 16 (15+1 from racial) Wisdom 12 Charisma 8
Lvl 1 I go Fighter to pick on Two Weapon Fighting Style
Lvl 2-7 I go Bladesinger for Extra attack and the spells and I'll pick up Dual Wielder as my ASI before going back to get Fighter up to 4 to probably picking up Warcaster.
I don’t get this. If you wear med/heavy armor, you’re going to not be able to use Bladesinging. If you wear no or light Armor, you’re build gets -1 AC from Dex. What’s the plan here?
At level 10 you have Dual Wielder, Slasher, Crusher, Heavy Armor Master feats, and Two-Weapon Fighting and Defense (or Interception) Fighting Styles. 20AC with Plate.
1d8+4 per attack, with Longsword two times and Warhammer Bonus Action. ~19% chance of a crit each round with the Longsword, ~10% chance of a crit each round with the Warhammer. Likely to be able to reduce speed and push opponents away, giving you ample room to avoid attacks entirely by using the space effectively.
Overall average output is 3d8+12 = 25.5.
One more level gets you 4 attacks per round. ~17.1% chance of a crit with the Longsword, ~10% with the Warhammer. Again, even more chances of being able to push the enemy away and getting that space advantage. With that high level of crit chance each round, you’re likely to get a lot more crits with your other attacks as well, further locking down your opponent.
Overall average output is 4d8+16 = 30.
The one drawback with PAM is you cannot get bludgeoning main hand damage. With a dual wield build you can elect to make the Warhammer the main hand weapon any round you like (if they’re already slashed and you need to protect your allies, for example).
There is nothing wrong with a straight Vhuman Champ, they can dish it out in combat no questions asked. But that is pretty much all they do. A Bladesinger/Champ does comparable damage but they has tricks up their sleeves for out of combat situations as well. Did your party come across some texts that nobody can read? Comprehend Languages has got your back. The way ahead looks a bit shady? Send in your Familiar first to scout it out. The bridge collapsed because of a storm? Use Levitate or Fly to get your party across.
And even if we go to level 11 the scaling on Booming Blade helps us keep up with the damage the straight Fighter does with his 4th attack. But mainly the multiclassing of bladesinger and champion is just more fun to play.
… As is true with every combination class, you give up singular potential for variety. With the extra feats on a straight Fighter vs a Fighter/Wizard at level 20, you’re definitely encouraged to get things that allow you to be more versatile if you wish.
I don’t get this. If you wear med/heavy armor, you’re going to not be able to use Bladesinging. If you wear no or light Armor, you’re build gets -1 AC from Dex. What’s the plan here?
You wear Heavy armor, thats one of the reasons I went with Fighter at lvl 1. That and the CON saving throws. I also mentioned in a earlier post that I was prepared to give up Bladesong for this build because Bladesong does not mix with Dual Wielder and Crusher.
The one drawback with PAM is you cannot get bludgeoning main hand damage. With a dual wield build you can elect to make the Warhammer the main hand weapon any round you like (if they’re already slashed and you need to protect your allies, for example).
Quarterstaff respectfully disagrees. It does give up reach and either 1 average damage or 2 average damage but gain +2 AC to do it, but that's bludgeoning damage on the main attack if that is what you are looking for.
With Shillelagh, no sacrifice of damage is required since even the bonus action will use a d8. Though, I do recognize that there is disagreement among folks on whether PAM or the spell have precedence for setting the damage dice for that attack (I'm clearly in the Shillelagh camp). A druid can't Shillelagh two clubs to benefit from the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, but can Shillelagh a single quarterstaff, and even use it while holding a Shield for +2 AC.
With Shillelagh, no sacrifice of damage is required since even the bonus action will use a d8. Though, I do recognize that there is disagreement among folks on whether PAM or the spell have precedence for setting the damage dice for that attack (I'm clearly in the Shillelagh camp). A druid can't Shillelagh two clubs to benefit from the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, but can Shillelagh a single quarterstaff, and even use it while holding a Shield for +2 AC.
Which requires a dip into Druid to get and brings into play spellcasting components rules. The last might be hand waved by a DM, but the dip could be a problem. If the dip is into warlock instead of druid, it does require a 3 level dip and going into pact of the tome. Getting magic initiate druid could also help, but that's another feat on top of PAM and Crusher and whatever else was used for the PAM version of the build. It's possible, but has its own costs.
I only skimmed this thread, so I apologize if I missed someone else mentioning this, but here goes:
Technically only one attack out of the total number must be made with the “other” weapon. IMHO, one thing often overlooked about Dual Wielder is that it can also allow a Longsword & Whip combination. That combo lets you focus on the Longsword attacks for the d8 when the extra reach isn’t useful, but also still leaves you the option of using the Whip when you do need the reach. In my personal experience, when you really, really wish you had reach the d4 isn’t a problem if otherwise you might not get to attack at all. (“Options win battles.” — MWG Steve)
Additionally, both weapons deal Slashing damage so both work with the Slasher feat.
Anyway, that’s just my 2cp for whatever it may be worth to anyone. 🤷♂️
With Shillelagh, no sacrifice of damage is required since even the bonus action will use a d8. Though, I do recognize that there is disagreement among folks on whether PAM or the spell have precedence for setting the damage dice for that attack (I'm clearly in the Shillelagh camp). A druid can't Shillelagh two clubs to benefit from the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, but can Shillelagh a single quarterstaff, and even use it while holding a Shield for +2 AC.
Which requires a dip into Druid to get and brings into play spellcasting components rules. The last might be hand waved by a DM, but the dip could be a problem. If the dip is into warlock instead of druid, it does require a 3 level dip and going into pact of the tome. Getting magic initiate druid could also help, but that's another feat on top of PAM and Crusher and whatever else was used for the PAM version of the build. It's possible, but has its own costs.
You can pick up Shillelagh in any number of ways: Pact of the Tome on warlock (bonus: it's Charisma based!), Druidic Warrior fighting style on a Ranger, Magic Initiate (Druid), a Druid splash level... probably something else I'm overlooking. Benefits of it as an alternative to true dual wielding:
With staff+shield, +1 AC over a traditional two-weapon fighter with Dual Wielder
No need for two weapon fighting style to have bonus damage from attribute on bonus attack
If you grab Duelist fighting style, +2 damage on each attack
Attack using spellcasting modifier (Wisdom, or Charisma if through Pact of Tome), which makes you less MAD on almost every build
Wisdom and Charisma attacks eligible for Elven Accuracy, strength is not.
PAM opportunity attack when foes ENTER your square, lets your OA become the first line of offense/defense in a fight
Quarterstaff can be a staff, and staff can be a spell focus, letting you fight with both hands filled without Warcaster
That's a lot of benefit, and worth re-examining some basic assumptions.
I only skimmed this thread, so I apologize if I missed someone else mentioning this, but here goes:
Technically only one attack out of the total number must be made with the “other” weapon. IMHO, one thing often overlooked about Dual Wielder is that it can also allow a Longsword & Whip combination. That combo lets you focus on the Longsword attacks for the d8 when the extra reach isn’t useful, but also still leaves you the option of using the Whip when you do need the reach. In my personal experience, when you really, really wish you had reach the d4 isn’t a problem if otherwise you might not get to attack at all. (“Options win battles.” — MWG Steve)
Additionally, both weapons deal Slashing damage so both work with the Slasher feat.
Anyway, that’s just my 2cp for whatever it may be worth to anyone. 🤷♂️
Huh. So can a player decide their left hand is their "offhand" and then later on switch to their right hand being their "offhand" when they want to attack more with the left-handed weapon? I suppose looking at the rules there is nothing saying you declare which hand is the offhand forever it just never crossed my mind to think about dual-wielding like that (probably because I spend so little time thinking about it in general). That makes the longsword and whip strat really interesting. Cool stuff Sposta.
With Shillelagh, no sacrifice of damage is required since even the bonus action will use a d8. Though, I do recognize that there is disagreement among folks on whether PAM or the spell have precedence for setting the damage dice for that attack (I'm clearly in the Shillelagh camp). A druid can't Shillelagh two clubs to benefit from the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, but can Shillelagh a single quarterstaff, and even use it while holding a Shield for +2 AC.
Which requires a dip into Druid to get and brings into play spellcasting components rules. The last might be hand waved by a DM, but the dip could be a problem. If the dip is into warlock instead of druid, it does require a 3 level dip and going into pact of the tome. Getting magic initiate druid could also help, but that's another feat on top of PAM and Crusher and whatever else was used for the PAM version of the build. It's possible, but has its own costs.
You can pick up Shillelagh in any number of ways: Pact of the Tome on warlock (bonus: it's Charisma based!), Druidic Warrior fighting style on a Ranger, Magic Initiate (Druid), a Druid splash level... probably something else I'm overlooking. Benefits of it as an alternative to true dual wielding:
With staff+shield, +1 AC over a traditional two-weapon fighter with Dual Wielder
No need for two weapon fighting style to have bonus damage from attribute on bonus attack
If you grab Duelist fighting style, +2 damage on each attack
Attack using spellcasting modifier (Wisdom, or Charisma if through Pact of Tome), which makes you less MAD on almost every build
Wisdom and Charisma attacks eligible for Elven Accuracy, strength is not.
PAM opportunity attack when foes ENTER your square, lets your OA become the first line of offense/defense in a fight
Quarterstaff can be a staff, and staff can be a spell focus, letting you fight with both hands filled without Warcaster
That's a lot of benefit, and worth re-examining some basic assumptions.
I'd forgot about Druidic Warrior. The only other way that I can think of getting it besides the ways that you mentioned would be bard with magical secrets, but that's quite the investment to just get a cantrip. If bard is already on the list and a heavy investment in it is planned, then it's less of a concern. The Druidic Warrior doesn't seem to be a great option in this case, unless another feat was planned for fighting initiate or a two to 3 level dip into ranger was planned.
The option for Wisdom and Charisma attacks are a great angle for the Elven Accuracy. Getting Hexblade is a bread and butter way to achieve that in a 1 level dip, but not everyone will want to go charisma and some may prefer getting something like Celestial Warlock for additional support. It does lock you into tomelock, though, which may not be ideal. Druidic Warrior is a decent option for Ranger and may be preferred for some over going Druid, but it does require going 2 levels vs 1 with Druid. Getting Hunter's Mark and favored foe might be enough of bonus, and not having to drop a hit die size is a perk. Going 3 depends on what you'll be getting from the subclass, but ranger has some good options in that department, including Hunter for Horde Breaker to get an extra attack for an extra chance to crit if someone is within 5 ft of your first target. It's not as nice on a melee character as on a ranged character though. Fey Wanderer, Gloom Stalker, and Horizon Walker also give interesting 3 level dip options for the build. The others might give options that help out as well, but I didn't look at them for this option.
Getting Battlesmith or Bladesinger for intelligence attacks is interesting, especially if Elven Accuracy is a key component of the build and the rest of the options. The steel defender gives a nice option for protection as it can block paths and increase the OA frequency for your party.
An interesting option for the build would be rogue 3. The Steady Aim option does use the bonus action for a round, but guarantees advantage. The Cunning Action options allow for improvement movement options or an additional way to get advantage. The drawback is that it wouldn't work with PAM at all if you are wanting sneak attack damage as well since there aren't any finesse options that also work with PAM. This would mean that you'd have to go with a dual wield and would have to use a scimitar for slasher to get that to trigger and get sneak attack. Dropping Slasher would give you the option of going with a rapier for the sneak attack option instead. However, getting Elven Accuracy to work with any options available to trigger crusher would require getting one of the dips mentioned above to get Shillelagh, grab hex warrior, or the int based attacks. Probably the best way to work in the rogue and crusher option would be to do a monk/rogue. This would probably be accomplished best by going 3-4 levels each and then going fighter the rest of the way, focusing on dex, wisdom, and constitution as your stats. You would get the bonuses from each class, a built in bludgeoning option that adds your attack stat modifier, allows for non-finesse weapons to use dex to qualify for Elven Accuracy, have incredible movement options at your beck and call, and have some interesting options for a versatile build with all of the subclass options that you could use on the chasis of a monk/rogue/fighter multiclass for the build since none of the requirements for the build require anything than perhaps champion for the crit fishing. You'll never be without a valid attack option even though the unarmed strikes will never go above d4, you'll presumably make up for that damage a bit with the 2d6 sneak attack, but won't get any better than that and your ki won't be a great asset for you as it would be limited to 3-4 points. Of course, Step of the Wind is mostly covered by Cunning Action, Patient Defense is an interesting fall back if you find yourself in a bad spot, and occasionally (if rarely) getting to Flurry of Blows actually works in this type of build if the bonuses from Crusher are important to the player. Being able to determine at a whim whether to use Martial arts, two weapon fighting, or even PAM (if you decided to grab that on this build) to engage the bonus action attack would let you customize the damage and procs available on any given turn. It probably wouldn't be an optimal build, but it could be fun.
I only skimmed this thread, so I apologize if I missed someone else mentioning this, but here goes:
Technically only one attack out of the total number must be made with the “other” weapon. IMHO, one thing often overlooked about Dual Wielder is that it can also allow a Longsword & Whip combination. That combo lets you focus on the Longsword attacks for the d8 when the extra reach isn’t useful, but also still leaves you the option of using the Whip when you do need the reach. In my personal experience, when you really, really wish you had reach the d4 isn’t a problem if otherwise you might not get to attack at all. (“Options win battles.” — MWG Steve)
Additionally, both weapons deal Slashing damage so both work with the Slasher feat.
Anyway, that’s just my 2cp for whatever it may be worth to anyone. 🤷♂️
Huh. So can a player decide their left hand is their "offhand" and then later on switch to their right hand being their "offhand" when they want to attack more with the left-handed weapon? I suppose looking at the rules there is nothing saying you declare which hand is the offhand forever it just never crossed my mind to think about dual-wielding like that (probably because I spend so little time thinking about it in general). That makes the longsword and whip strat really interesting. Cool stuff Sposta.
There is no "offhand" in 5e. You can be holding two weapons and attack with both if you have extra attack. You can even do so and attack with either weapon as your bonus action attack (assuming that you did attack with both) regardless of which one you attacked with first. All that two weapon fighting requires for the bonus action is that you hold a weapon in each hand while attacking and that the attack made with the bonus action is with a different weapon than one that is made with the Attack action.
You could therefore attack with a Warhammer first to activate crusher, push the creature back, and hope for the crit to proc the advantage rider. Then, you could attack with a whip at 10 ft to activate slasher, reduce the speed of the creature by 10 (effectively 15 with the push back), potentially trigger a sneak attack, and hope to crit to activate the disadvantage rider. At this point, you could then use either weapon on the bonus attack to apply any once per turn triggers that hadn't been triggered due to misses or take advantage of the better reach or higher damage.
This assumes that you are at least a 8th level fighter (or a sixth that somehow got an extra feat) since this would require slasher, crusher, and dual wielder feats to pull off (more for sneak attack).
Can't argue with that 😜
I don’t get this. If you wear med/heavy armor, you’re going to not be able to use Bladesinging. If you wear no or light Armor, you’re build gets -1 AC from Dex. What’s the plan here?
… As is true with every combination class, you give up singular potential for variety. With the extra feats on a straight Fighter vs a Fighter/Wizard at level 20, you’re definitely encouraged to get things that allow you to be more versatile if you wish.
You wear Heavy armor, thats one of the reasons I went with Fighter at lvl 1. That and the CON saving throws. I also mentioned in a earlier post that I was prepared to give up Bladesong for this build because Bladesong does not mix with Dual Wielder and Crusher.
Quarterstaff respectfully disagrees. It does give up reach and either 1 average damage or 2 average damage but gain +2 AC to do it, but that's bludgeoning damage on the main attack if that is what you are looking for.
With Shillelagh, no sacrifice of damage is required since even the bonus action will use a d8. Though, I do recognize that there is disagreement among folks on whether PAM or the spell have precedence for setting the damage dice for that attack (I'm clearly in the Shillelagh camp). A druid can't Shillelagh two clubs to benefit from the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, but can Shillelagh a single quarterstaff, and even use it while holding a Shield for +2 AC.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Which requires a dip into Druid to get and brings into play spellcasting components rules. The last might be hand waved by a DM, but the dip could be a problem. If the dip is into warlock instead of druid, it does require a 3 level dip and going into pact of the tome. Getting magic initiate druid could also help, but that's another feat on top of PAM and Crusher and whatever else was used for the PAM version of the build. It's possible, but has its own costs.
I only skimmed this thread, so I apologize if I missed someone else mentioning this, but here goes:
Technically only one attack out of the total number must be made with the “other” weapon. IMHO, one thing often overlooked about Dual Wielder is that it can also allow a Longsword & Whip combination. That combo lets you focus on the Longsword attacks for the d8 when the extra reach isn’t useful, but also still leaves you the option of using the Whip when you do need the reach. In my personal experience, when you really, really wish you had reach the d4 isn’t a problem if otherwise you might not get to attack at all. (“Options win battles.” — MWG Steve)
Additionally, both weapons deal Slashing damage so both work with the Slasher feat.
Anyway, that’s just my 2cp for whatever it may be worth to anyone. 🤷♂️
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You can pick up Shillelagh in any number of ways: Pact of the Tome on warlock (bonus: it's Charisma based!), Druidic Warrior fighting style on a Ranger, Magic Initiate (Druid), a Druid splash level... probably something else I'm overlooking. Benefits of it as an alternative to true dual wielding:
That's a lot of benefit, and worth re-examining some basic assumptions.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Huh. So can a player decide their left hand is their "offhand" and then later on switch to their right hand being their "offhand" when they want to attack more with the left-handed weapon? I suppose looking at the rules there is nothing saying you declare which hand is the offhand forever it just never crossed my mind to think about dual-wielding like that (probably because I spend so little time thinking about it in general). That makes the longsword and whip strat really interesting. Cool stuff Sposta.
I'd forgot about Druidic Warrior. The only other way that I can think of getting it besides the ways that you mentioned would be bard with magical secrets, but that's quite the investment to just get a cantrip. If bard is already on the list and a heavy investment in it is planned, then it's less of a concern. The Druidic Warrior doesn't seem to be a great option in this case, unless another feat was planned for fighting initiate or a two to 3 level dip into ranger was planned.
The option for Wisdom and Charisma attacks are a great angle for the Elven Accuracy. Getting Hexblade is a bread and butter way to achieve that in a 1 level dip, but not everyone will want to go charisma and some may prefer getting something like Celestial Warlock for additional support. It does lock you into tomelock, though, which may not be ideal. Druidic Warrior is a decent option for Ranger and may be preferred for some over going Druid, but it does require going 2 levels vs 1 with Druid. Getting Hunter's Mark and favored foe might be enough of bonus, and not having to drop a hit die size is a perk. Going 3 depends on what you'll be getting from the subclass, but ranger has some good options in that department, including Hunter for Horde Breaker to get an extra attack for an extra chance to crit if someone is within 5 ft of your first target. It's not as nice on a melee character as on a ranged character though. Fey Wanderer, Gloom Stalker, and Horizon Walker also give interesting 3 level dip options for the build. The others might give options that help out as well, but I didn't look at them for this option.
Getting Battlesmith or Bladesinger for intelligence attacks is interesting, especially if Elven Accuracy is a key component of the build and the rest of the options. The steel defender gives a nice option for protection as it can block paths and increase the OA frequency for your party.
An interesting option for the build would be rogue 3. The Steady Aim option does use the bonus action for a round, but guarantees advantage. The Cunning Action options allow for improvement movement options or an additional way to get advantage. The drawback is that it wouldn't work with PAM at all if you are wanting sneak attack damage as well since there aren't any finesse options that also work with PAM. This would mean that you'd have to go with a dual wield and would have to use a scimitar for slasher to get that to trigger and get sneak attack. Dropping Slasher would give you the option of going with a rapier for the sneak attack option instead. However, getting Elven Accuracy to work with any options available to trigger crusher would require getting one of the dips mentioned above to get Shillelagh, grab hex warrior, or the int based attacks. Probably the best way to work in the rogue and crusher option would be to do a monk/rogue. This would probably be accomplished best by going 3-4 levels each and then going fighter the rest of the way, focusing on dex, wisdom, and constitution as your stats. You would get the bonuses from each class, a built in bludgeoning option that adds your attack stat modifier, allows for non-finesse weapons to use dex to qualify for Elven Accuracy, have incredible movement options at your beck and call, and have some interesting options for a versatile build with all of the subclass options that you could use on the chasis of a monk/rogue/fighter multiclass for the build since none of the requirements for the build require anything than perhaps champion for the crit fishing. You'll never be without a valid attack option even though the unarmed strikes will never go above d4, you'll presumably make up for that damage a bit with the 2d6 sneak attack, but won't get any better than that and your ki won't be a great asset for you as it would be limited to 3-4 points. Of course, Step of the Wind is mostly covered by Cunning Action, Patient Defense is an interesting fall back if you find yourself in a bad spot, and occasionally (if rarely) getting to Flurry of Blows actually works in this type of build if the bonuses from Crusher are important to the player. Being able to determine at a whim whether to use Martial arts, two weapon fighting, or even PAM (if you decided to grab that on this build) to engage the bonus action attack would let you customize the damage and procs available on any given turn. It probably wouldn't be an optimal build, but it could be fun.
There is no "offhand" in 5e. You can be holding two weapons and attack with both if you have extra attack. You can even do so and attack with either weapon as your bonus action attack (assuming that you did attack with both) regardless of which one you attacked with first. All that two weapon fighting requires for the bonus action is that you hold a weapon in each hand while attacking and that the attack made with the bonus action is with a different weapon than one that is made with the Attack action.
You could therefore attack with a Warhammer first to activate crusher, push the creature back, and hope for the crit to proc the advantage rider. Then, you could attack with a whip at 10 ft to activate slasher, reduce the speed of the creature by 10 (effectively 15 with the push back), potentially trigger a sneak attack, and hope to crit to activate the disadvantage rider. At this point, you could then use either weapon on the bonus attack to apply any once per turn triggers that hadn't been triggered due to misses or take advantage of the better reach or higher damage.
This assumes that you are at least a 8th level fighter (or a sixth that somehow got an extra feat) since this would require slasher, crusher, and dual wielder feats to pull off (more for sneak attack).
Yep that's definitely some 3.5 brain still clinging to my skull. Thanks for the clarification Jhfffan.