They don't need to be made more versatile and interesting, they need to do more damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip.
Counting multiattack, fighters already do more damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip, and it's not even close (typically 2-3 times higher). The problem with fighters isn't "I can't do anything in combat", it's "When combat isn't happening, I don't have anything to do".
They don't need to be made more versatile and interesting, they need to do more damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip.
Counting multiattack, fighters already do damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip, and it's not even close (typically 2-3 times higher). The problem with fighters isn't "I can't do anything in combat", it's "When combat isn't happening, I don't have anything to do".
Yup. And if you want to see the math that supports Pantagruels comparison between basic weapon attack damage to cantrips damage, I'll link it again: The math is shown on the table in the first post on this thread.
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They don't need to be made more versatile and interesting, they need to do more damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip.
Counting multiattack, fighters already do more damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip, and it's not even close (typically 2-3 times higher). The problem with fighters isn't "I can't do anything in combat", it's "When combat isn't happening, I don't have anything to do".
And the answer to that is whatever you want. There are ways to support the team without relying on weapons. They can Help someone else to confer advantage. They're guaranteed four skill proficiencies. If your primary ability is Dexterity, there are three good skills and a tool proficiency you can easily pick up with a background. If your primary is Strength, then your tertiary stat is probably still at least a 14 for a +2 modifier. And your fourth-highest is still likely a 12. There are plenty of good Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma skills to acquire.
You're not wrong, but spellcasters have all those same options, while also having spells, and a primary attribute that's generally more conducive to many typical non-combat activities.
Fighters being worse than Wizards at solving miscellaneous problems isn't really that controversial a statement.
Some problems can only be solved with spellcasting, sure. That also consumes a finite resource; which means there's still a limit on the wizard's ability to solve problems with magic. There's no need to use fly when some rope and a climber's kit will do.
Well it seems like we succeeded and the new crit hit rules are scrapped for this next play test. w00t.
For the next month, yeah. Probably for a couple of reasons. It takes some of the sting off from moving Inspiration to a 1 instead of a 20. But it's also an escaped genie. People are too used to overly-inflated numbers, so they'll scream bloody murder any attempt to roll them back.
Well it seems like we succeeded and the new crit hit rules are scrapped for this next play test. w00t.
For the next month, yeah. Probably for a couple of reasons. It takes some of the sting off from moving Inspiration to a 1 instead of a 20. But it's also an escaped genie. People are too used to overly-inflated numbers, so they'll scream bloody murder any attempt to roll them back.
Honestly if a critical hit doesn't do critical damage then it isn't a critical hit at all. There were so many ways to get advantage that there was just no reason to take away critical damage.
Well it seems like we succeeded and the new crit hit rules are scrapped for this next play test. w00t.
It had nothing to do with the feedback. They hadn't even looked at it. It's just another permutation that they're experimenting with.
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Well it seems like we succeeded and the new crit hit rules are scrapped for this next play test. w00t.
For the next month, yeah. Probably for a couple of reasons. It takes some of the sting off from moving Inspiration to a 1 instead of a 20. But it's also an escaped genie. People are too used to overly-inflated numbers, so they'll scream bloody murder any attempt to roll them back.
Honestly if a critical hit doesn't do critical damage then it isn't a critical hit at all. There were so many ways to get advantage that there was just no reason to take away critical damage.
Critical damage has been a bone thrown to the martial classes for decades. Spells couldn't land a critical hit in 3rd edition, 3.5, or pathfinder. So weapons got something extra to keep up with the world altering powers of spellcasters. Weapons could have their critical hit ranges and multipliers expanded though a variety of mundane and magical enhancements. There were even feat trees for making critical hits more devastating.
Fourth edition saw everything get the ability to deal additional damage, because Powers, and weapons were still given something extra. A magic weapon did a number of additional dice equal to its bonus, so a +1 longsword would add +1 to the attack roll and deal 2d8 damage.
Fifth edition kept the "everyone gets double numbers," but got rid of what made critical hits for martial classes better. So spellcasters keep the best of both worlds, the martial classes get shafted, and people still complain because they don't know their history.
Critical damage has been a bone thrown to the martial classes for decades. Spells couldn't land a critical hit in 3rd edition, 3.5, or pathfinder. So weapons got something extra to keep up with the world altering powers of spellcasters. Weapons could have their critical hit ranges and multipliers expanded though a variety of mundane and magical enhancements. There were even feat trees for making critical hits more devastating.
Fourth edition saw everything get the ability to deal additional damage, because Powers, and weapons were still given something extra. A magic weapon did a number of additional dice equal to its bonus, so a +1 longsword would add +1 to the attack roll and deal 2d8 damage.
Spells that had attack rolls could get a critical hit in 3.5e (though there generally weren't items and abilities that made your criticals better). In 4e, everything used attack rolls so everything could get critical hits, and anything that used a weapon or implement (equivalent to a focus in 5e) gained additional effects on a critical hit.
These new rules mean, that classes that rely on spells, people who play them don't get the thrill of rolling a natural 20, they might as well have rolled a 15, a 16, or maybe even a roll lower than those two depending on the monsters AC.
Incorrect. A natural 20 still occurred. It still provided you a bonus. Automatic hit and Inspiration.
While all the people making weapon attacks get to crit, and deal double damage, and celebrate, since you're the spellcaster, you don't have any of that. A natural 20 is supposed to be a reward, supposed to be something everyone at the table is excited to see, but with spells, it's just like any other hit. You get nothing extra, nothing special for a special roll, you might as well not roll against monsters with really low AC, you'll hit them anyways unless you get a one.
They deal an additional weapon die. Not double. They also automatically hit and gain inspiration. You as a spellcaster get two of those 3 things. As for the point about not rolling against low AC monsters that is also a separate rule introduced in the document. Not rolling for targets below 5 or above 30.
A crit is not a crit for you, it's just another hit with nothing special about it. It's unfair for everyone fighting with weapons to be able to enjoy getting a natural 20 and doing something awesome because of it. Your awesome roll is not your awesome roll, because based off the type of class you play, you can't have rolls like it.
Correct for the bold, incorrect for the rest. You still gain an auto hit and advantage. What is unfair is you dealing 3x the die roll of a longsword with a first level spell, and having a 5% chance to destroy a low level encounter before a fighter can get to it.
I could continue, but it just seems to me that you want to have unrivaled control capability, unrivaled movement capability, the answer to most obstacles, and immeasurably better damage that also can deal double immeasurably better damage. Let the damn martials have their SINGLE ADDITIONAL DIE ROLL. You don't need it.
Oh realllllllllly? Spellcasters deserves crits, too. It's that way in 5e and it should stay that way in 1D&D.
These new rules mean, that classes that rely on spells, people who play them don't get the thrill of rolling a natural 20, they might as well have rolled a 15, a 16, or maybe even a roll lower than those two depending on the monsters AC.
Incorrect. A natural 20 still occurred. It still provided you a bonus. Automatic hit and Inspiration.
While all the people making weapon attacks get to crit, and deal double damage, and celebrate, since you're the spellcaster, you don't have any of that. A natural 20 is supposed to be a reward, supposed to be something everyone at the table is excited to see, but with spells, it's just like any other hit. You get nothing extra, nothing special for a special roll, you might as well not roll against monsters with really low AC, you'll hit them anyways unless you get a one.
They deal an additional weapon die. Not double. They also automatically hit and gain inspiration. You as a spellcaster get two of those 3 things. As for the point about not rolling against low AC monsters that is also a separate rule introduced in the document. Not rolling for targets below 5 or above 30.
A crit is not a crit for you, it's just another hit with nothing special about it. It's unfair for everyone fighting with weapons to be able to enjoy getting a natural 20 and doing something awesome because of it. Your awesome roll is not your awesome roll, because based off the type of class you play, you can't have rolls like it.
Correct for the bold, incorrect for the rest. You still gain an auto hit and advantage. What is unfair is you dealing 3x the die roll of a longsword with a first level spell, and having a 5% chance to destroy a low level encounter before a fighter can get to it.
I could continue, but it just seems to me that you want to have unrivaled control capability, unrivaled movement capability, the answer to most obstacles, and immeasurably better damage that also can deal double immeasurably better damage. Let the damn martials have their SINGLE ADDITIONAL DIE ROLL. You don't need it.
Oh realllllllllly? Spellcasters deserves crits, too. It's that way in 5e and it should stay that way in 1D&D.
In 5e, a Crit doubles all damage dice. In 1DD you just add an additional weapon damage die. That means no more Crit Smites or Crit Sneak Attack shenanigans. It also means not doubling Brutal Critical damage, and not doubling additional dice from stuff like a flame tongue weapon either. In light of that, not Critting on spells seems fairly well balanced. (I personally would allow one additional damage die on a Crit with a cantrip, but only on cantrips, not leveled spells, but that’s just me.)
3. Extra Attacks (and a lot of them in the Fighter's case)
4. Better armor proficiencies
5. Ability to use Opportunity Attacks for something they're good at (weapons)
6. Slightly better save-main stat overlap: A martial's main stats are Str/Dex & Con, a caster's mains are Wis/Int/Cha. 2 of the martial stats are "good" saves (Dex & Con), while only 1 caster stat is a "good" save (Wis).
I think the best thing is that yes, spells and others have a chance to crit, doubling their damage, BUT THE DIRECT DAMAGE CAUSED BY ATTACKS WITH WEAPONS AND FISTS SHOULD TRIPLE THEIR DAMAGE CAUSED when it hits a crit.
The reason is that they don't fit into the new D&D damage scale. Notice that know any high damage effect cannot crit (like Divine Smite, Sneak Attack, of the dice added by abilities). An upcasted Inflict Wounds to an immobilized creature is something out of scale for One D&D, and I understand it.
But, I think attack cantrips should crit, as their damage scale is "controlled", and probably I'll do that. If not the attack cantrips are usually worse than the saving throw ones, with covers and trying to hit AC, so few reason to get them.
I could be mistaken, but looking at the new system, I'd say that the main purpose is to land your main damage, and the multi-attack is mainly to increase the chance for that, and if you hit on first hit, then the chance to land some weapon dice plus your ability score bonus is an extra, but is not out of control at all. Fortunately they are removing also those over fixed damages that could be applied per hit, and now they can be used only once per turn.
I think is a nice thing, let's say goodbye to those ridiculous 1-2 rounds fights against the super-mega-boss, with non-sense turn damage numbers.
Counting multiattack, fighters already do more damage with a basic weapon attack compared to a cantrip, and it's not even close (typically 2-3 times higher). The problem with fighters isn't "I can't do anything in combat", it's "When combat isn't happening, I don't have anything to do".
Yup. And if you want to see the math that supports Pantagruels comparison between basic weapon attack damage to cantrips damage, I'll link it again: The math is shown on the table in the first post on this thread.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.And the answer to that is whatever you want. There are ways to support the team without relying on weapons. They can Help someone else to confer advantage. They're guaranteed four skill proficiencies. If your primary ability is Dexterity, there are three good skills and a tool proficiency you can easily pick up with a background. If your primary is Strength, then your tertiary stat is probably still at least a 14 for a +2 modifier. And your fourth-highest is still likely a 12. There are plenty of good Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma skills to acquire.
Fighters are far from helpless outside of combat.
You're not wrong, but spellcasters have all those same options, while also having spells, and a primary attribute that's generally more conducive to many typical non-combat activities.
Fighters being worse than Wizards at solving miscellaneous problems isn't really that controversial a statement.
Some problems can only be solved with spellcasting, sure. That also consumes a finite resource; which means there's still a limit on the wizard's ability to solve problems with magic. There's no need to use fly when some rope and a climber's kit will do.
Well it seems like we succeeded and the new crit hit rules are scrapped for this next play test. w00t.
For the next month, yeah. Probably for a couple of reasons. It takes some of the sting off from moving Inspiration to a 1 instead of a 20. But it's also an escaped genie. People are too used to overly-inflated numbers, so they'll scream bloody murder any attempt to roll them back.
Honestly if a critical hit doesn't do critical damage then it isn't a critical hit at all. There were so many ways to get advantage that there was just no reason to take away critical damage.
It had nothing to do with the feedback. They hadn't even looked at it. It's just another permutation that they're experimenting with.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Critical damage has been a bone thrown to the martial classes for decades. Spells couldn't land a critical hit in 3rd edition, 3.5, or pathfinder. So weapons got something extra to keep up with the world altering powers of spellcasters. Weapons could have their critical hit ranges and multipliers expanded though a variety of mundane and magical enhancements. There were even feat trees for making critical hits more devastating.
Fourth edition saw everything get the ability to deal additional damage, because Powers, and weapons were still given something extra. A magic weapon did a number of additional dice equal to its bonus, so a +1 longsword would add +1 to the attack roll and deal 2d8 damage.
Fifth edition kept the "everyone gets double numbers," but got rid of what made critical hits for martial classes better. So spellcasters keep the best of both worlds, the martial classes get shafted, and people still complain because they don't know their history.
Spells that had attack rolls could get a critical hit in 3.5e (though there generally weren't items and abilities that made your criticals better). In 4e, everything used attack rolls so everything could get critical hits, and anything that used a weapon or implement (equivalent to a focus in 5e) gained additional effects on a critical hit.
Oh realllllllllly? Spellcasters deserves crits, too. It's that way in 5e and it should stay that way in 1D&D.
In 5e, a Crit doubles all damage dice. In 1DD you just add an additional weapon damage die. That means no more Crit Smites or Crit Sneak Attack shenanigans. It also means not doubling Brutal Critical damage, and not doubling additional dice from stuff like a flame tongue weapon either. In light of that, not Critting on spells seems fairly well balanced. (I personally would allow one additional damage die on a Crit with a cantrip, but only on cantrips, not leveled spells, but that’s just me.)
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This is no longer the case. Ever since the Cleric and Species UA, the rule for critical hits has been the one in the PH.
Well, yeah. But I meant using the same UA that nerfed spellcaster crits.
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You're not supposed to use the older Rules Glossaries, each new one supersedes the previous. No spell crits is dead and gone.
As to what we are or aren’t sposta do, “sposta” is a very dangerous word.
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Martials have:
1. Better staying power
2. Superior Hit Points & Dice
3. Extra Attacks (and a lot of them in the Fighter's case)
4. Better armor proficiencies
5. Ability to use Opportunity Attacks for something they're good at (weapons)
6. Slightly better save-main stat overlap: A martial's main stats are Str/Dex & Con, a caster's mains are Wis/Int/Cha. 2 of the martial stats are "good" saves (Dex & Con), while only 1 caster stat is a "good" save (Wis).
7. Lack of worry about Magic Resistance.
Let the Casters Crit!
I think the best thing is that yes, spells and others have a chance to crit, doubling their damage, BUT THE DIRECT DAMAGE CAUSED BY ATTACKS WITH WEAPONS AND FISTS SHOULD TRIPLE THEIR DAMAGE CAUSED when it hits a crit.
The reason is that they don't fit into the new D&D damage scale. Notice that know any high damage effect cannot crit (like Divine Smite, Sneak Attack, of the dice added by abilities). An upcasted Inflict Wounds to an immobilized creature is something out of scale for One D&D, and I understand it.
But, I think attack cantrips should crit, as their damage scale is "controlled", and probably I'll do that. If not the attack cantrips are usually worse than the saving throw ones, with covers and trying to hit AC, so few reason to get them.
I could be mistaken, but looking at the new system, I'd say that the main purpose is to land your main damage, and the multi-attack is mainly to increase the chance for that, and if you hit on first hit, then the chance to land some weapon dice plus your ability score bonus is an extra, but is not out of control at all. Fortunately they are removing also those over fixed damages that could be applied per hit, and now they can be used only once per turn.
I think is a nice thing, let's say goodbye to those ridiculous 1-2 rounds fights against the super-mega-boss, with non-sense turn damage numbers.