So the playtest has some fundamental, but kind of subtle, changes to grappling. To summarize, whenever you make an unarmed strike you get three options: damage as normal for 1+Strength mod, impose the Grappled condition in your target as long as you have a free hand, or shove the target either 5 ft away or prone.
The Grappled condition imposes disadvantage on the target for all attacks except those against the grappler. The grappler can move the target, but while they are moving a grappled target they receive the Slowed condition, which means that every ft traveled costs an extra ft, all attacks against the Slowed creature have Advantage, and the Slowed creature has Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws.
A creature that is Grappled gets to make a Strength or Dexterity Saving Throw at the end of each of their turns to remove the condition vs an Escape DC of 8 + Proficiency + Strength mod of the grappler.
For me, the big takeaway is that grapples and shoves can be done with all unarmed strikes and doesn't depend on the Attack Action. This opens up grapples and shoves on opportunity attacks as well as Monk Flurry of Blows. I think this a wonderful level of tactical complexity for martial characters that was not there before. Strength based martial characters now have an actual control option that will allow them to actually deny enemies the ability to just walk past them and go after the rest of the party. It also gives Monks the kind of martial arts grappling and control that many have wanted for awhile. The Slowed condition applying only while moving a Grappled target also forces the grappler to think tactically. I think this is a wonderful level of depth for martial characters and I can't wait to see if martials get any more subtle but impactful changes.
Now the other bit that was changed was the decoupling of grappling and Athletics, or any Skill at all. I'm not 100% sure about that change, but I'm willing to see it out. It does make it difficult to actually build a character around grappling besides just maxing out Strength. It remains to be seen if there are things like Feat support for a grappling build. I hope there is. I also really really REALLY hope that Monks get to use their Dexterity for the Escape DC instead of Strength.
What do you all think?
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So the playtest has some fundamental, but kind of subtle, changes to grappling. To summarize, whenever you make an unarmed strike you get three options: damage as normal for 1+Strength mod, impose the Grappled condition in your target as long as you have a free hand, or shove the target either 5 ft away or prone.
Correct. Under the UA rules, the test to be grappled or not is based entirely on accuracy and relative size - a Strength 8 Elf can grapple a warhorse and provided they land the hit, the horse is grappled until it escapes. As a corollary, Acrobatics is an even worse skill than it used to be (Athletics is also nerfed, but not as badly). This is a buff to Dexterity-based grapplers (i.e. monks), as you can land the grapple using it. It also nerfs grapples in the sense that it's impossible to use expertise in a skill to get better at grappling (both inflicting and escaping).
The Grappled condition imposes disadvantage on the target for all attacks except those against the grappler. The grappler can move the target, but while they are moving a grappled target they receive the Slowed condition, which means that every ft traveled costs an extra ft, all attacks against the Slowed creature have Advantage, and the Slowed creature has Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws.
Correct. Note that just like the current rules, there's no actual clarity on handling moving your grappled target relative to you, the grappler - e.g. if a bugbear grabs someone at 10' out and simply wants to drag them 5' closer so the grapple can stay up (assuming your DM fixes the UA, which fails to cover the presumably true fact that an unarmed strike grapple has range equal to your reach with unarmed strikes).
Note that this ignores the grappler's strength - our Elf described above can grab and drag the warhorse, and being Strength 8 as opposed to 20 doesn't make it any harder, regardless of the target's weight. The only intrinsic benefit to Strength for a grappler under these rules is maintaining the grapple.
A creature that is Grappled gets to make a Strength or Dexterity Saving Throw at the end of each of their turns to remove the condition vs an Escape DC of 8 + Proficiency + Strength mod of the grappler.
Indeed. This has several interesting interactions with grappling as a whole, one of which is that if you grapple a target, it's guaranteed to stay grappled for all of your turn and all of its turn. It's not possible escape a grapple and then move.
For me, the big takeaway is that grapples and shoves can be done with all unarmed strikes and doesn't depend on the Attack Action.
That is absolutely another consequence of these rules.
This opens up grapples and shoves on opportunity attacks as well as Monk Flurry of Blows. I think this a wonderful level of tactical complexity for martial characters that was not there before. Strength based martial characters now have an actual control option that will allow them to actually deny enemies the ability to just walk past them and go after the rest of the party.
Dexterity is still the King of Ability Scores for this, because you don't need any Strength to land the grapple, and once you land it, the target can't escape until they can no longer move, as I mentioned above. However, if you want to lean into grappling as a mechanic, it remains important to figure out ways to be bigger so you don't stop being useful against big targets.
It also gives Monks the kind of martial arts grappling and control that many have wanted for awhile. The Slowed condition applying only while moving a Grappled target also forces the grappler to think tactically. I think this is a wonderful level of depth for martial characters and I can't wait to see if martials get any more subtle but impactful changes.
Martials tend to make the most attacks, so one of the impactful changes in the UA is the new strong incentive to fish for inspiration by making needless ability checks - for example, there's now an incentive to long jump every round if you can, as you're entitled to an Athletics check when you do so to jump higher, which is another opportunity for rolling a 20 and achieving Inspiration. Similarly, Rogues are big fans of their bonus action Hide now serving as an Inspiration generator, but because Sneak Attack doesn't crit any more, and Rogues have always been more reliant than others on crits for their DPR, I strongly suspect the net effect is a nerf to Rogues.
If you have a way to do it, probably an allied spellcaster, one of the best ways to game this mechanic is by putting yourself in a persistent AOE with a low save DC, like if you can employ a spell scroll of create bonfire to stand in, so you can, without needing to do anything in particular but stand in the AOE, roll a save every turn.
Now the other bit that was changed was the decoupling of grappling and Athletics, or any Skill at all. I'm not 100% sure about that change, but I'm willing to see it out. It does make it difficult to actually build a character around grappling besides just maxing out Strength. It remains to be seen if there are things like Feat support for a grappling build. I hope there is. I also really really REALLY hope that Monks get to use their Dexterity for the Escape DC instead of Strength.
If they want to simply propagate the change into Monks, this will be an Astral Self-only ability, as right now only Astral Self Monks can Grapple with their Wisdom.
What do you all think?
I think this is a step in the wrong direction in terms of skill utility - I'd rather have seen skills become more important, not less - and there are other changes that have deeply sketchy implications for immersive combats like a level 1 Strength 8 monk stopping a warhorse dead in its tracks. However, some of the changes are absolutely excellent, like what you said about being able to replace any Unarmed Strike with a Grapple or Shove.
Hopefully you'll be allowed to Shove with any bludgeoning weapon if they go forward with these rules.
1) Only Monks get to use Dexterity with their Unarmed Strikes so it's not all Dex based combatants that are going to be bonkers at grappling, just monks, let's not speak as if it affects anyone else. Otherwise it's still a Strength based endeavor. Frankly I think monks could use the love. Monks being able to use skill in place of brute strength is well within theme for them and doesn't seem sketchy to me.
2) I didn't bring up anything about the new nat 20 rules and inspiration, that's not the topic of discussion. Let's not get into that, please.
3) You want shoves on bludgeoning attacks in general and not just unarmed strikes?
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I think people should also look at this from the opposite perspective. Monsters can make grapple and shove with the same rules. That makes deciding whether to use your action to disengage or just take the hit a bit more important. The "tank" being grappled or even shoved down becomes a bit less useful. Since their isn't a save or opposed check, the "tank" can be grappled and dragged to the side leaving the rest of the group to the whims of the rest of enemies on the battle field. Basically all the things that were once the purview of a Grapple build becomes easy for every monster to do.
I think people should also look at this from the opposite perspective. Monsters can make grapple and shove with the same rules. That makes deciding whether to use your action to disengage or just take the hit a bit more important. The "tank" being grappled or even shoved down becomes a bit less useful. Since their isn't a save or opposed check, the "tank" can be grappled and dragged to the side leaving the rest of the group to the whims of the rest of enemies on the battle field. Basically all the things that were once the purview of a Grapple build becomes easy for every monster to do.
Fair point, thank you! You're right, this does add even more tactical depth and consideration to martial combat than I had thought of. Still a positive, for me.
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Note that this ignores the grappler's strength - our Elf described above can grab and drag the warhorse, and being Strength 8 as opposed to 20 doesn't make it any harder, regardless of the target's weight. The only intrinsic benefit to Strength for a grappler under these rules is maintaining the grapple.
Well, if the warhorse weighs 8x30=240 lbs, then yes, the elf can drag it. Good luck finding such light warhorse. The warhorse, though, can drag 18x30=540 lbs, easily dragging an elf that latches onto it. Unless it's one heavy elf.
I made very heavy use of Grappling on my last character, a Battlemaster Goliath. The powerful thing about Grapples was that it really didn't behave like normal combat. To be perfectly honest, the system for grappling just didn't fit and because of that, very few monster stat blocks could effectively defend against it because it was the only thing in the combat arena that actually relied on a proficiency capable skill (let alone the expertise that I put into it). So all in all, I'm actually happy about this change. It cleans up a pretty glaring hole and gives us some nice buffs in the process.
I agree that I hope that the Martial Arts trait of the monk does grant them the ability to use their dexterity as the DC for Grapple, though at the moment I'm not sure I'd want my monk being the Grappler due to the "Attacker has disadvantage on any attacks other than against the grappler" bit. With Monks as they currently are, I imagine the shove is far more inline with them. Hit, pushback, follow, hit, pushback, follow, Flurry of Blows, hit, pushback, follow, hit pushback, follow. That being said, I am certainly hoping for a monk who's more 'punch you in the face' then 'rabbit punch you in the back of the head and run away'. Tavern Brawler does help a bit with this, allowing full martial arts damage while also forced movement, hoping the Grappler feat fills in the rest of the blank and uses some sort of 'restrained' condition to avoid them hitting the monk back at all.
The one thing I would really want them to address and incorporate into the grappling rules is the <Powerful Build> Trait. I feel like a little add to the line "Powerful Build. You count as one Size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can grapple, push, drag, or lift" would not be out of line.
The new Unarmed/Grapple rules are...curious. Many people forget that Unarmed attacks do not have to be with the hands; you can kick, headbutt, knee strike, or anything else as an Unarmed attack, which means even sword-board fighters can kick someone in the stones and knock them prone without having to be Athletic to do it. I cannot imagine that there won't be feat support for it either, or subclasses that don't get special bonuses/abilities that key off of unarmed/grappling.
The actual grappling rules themselves, I'm not entirely certain about. Being able to grapple on AoO is fantastic, but it used to be that someone would have to put in effort to break a grapple. If a target was grappled and didn't want to be, it had to burn its action to escape. Now it just gets to roll an Escape Check for free ninety-nine on every turn, and against a much less strict escape DC. Sure, the critter doesn't get to use its own potentially-Expertise'd skill to escape, but I'm not sure I agree with that idea. One should be able to train their grappling ability, as well as train to escape grapples. I do like the smoother, less fiddly and weird rules but I'm not sure I entirely appreciate the edge-case jank it introduces. Something for me to ruminate on and perhaps try out if I can before filling out a survey.
The new Unarmed/Grapple rules are...curious. Many people forget that Unarmed attacks do not have to be with the hands; you can kick, headbutt, knee strike, or anything else as an Unarmed attack, which means even sword-board fighters can kick someone in the stones and knock them prone without having to be Athletic to do it. I cannot imagine that there won't be feat support for it either, or subclasses that don't get special bonuses/abilities that key off of unarmed/grappling.
Yes, I am betting a revised Grappler that is not poop is coming down the line.
The actual grappling rules themselves, I'm not entirely certain about. Being able to grapple on AoO is fantastic, but it used to be that someone would have to put in effort to break a grapple. If a target was grappled and didn't want to be, it had to burn its action to escape. Now it just gets to roll an Escape Check for free ninety-nine on every turn, and against a much less strict escape DC.
But also it doesn't happen until the end of its turn, so the grappler has a whole turn to drag the target somewhere. Then the target has one whole turn stuck at Speed 0 before they can make the Escape Save and even that is at the end of the turn, so the grappler could very well just grapple them again. One of the break conditions is if something moves the target out of "the grapple's range" (which is yet undefined, but presumably the range of the unarmed strike?) without using their move, but oddly it doesn't mention moving the grappler otherwise the target could shove the grappler away in order to break the grapple. I feel like that should work, but I'm not sure if it works as written.
Still, before the target has the chance to break out, they are still are at the mercy of the grappler for at least a whole turn before they can do anything about it. Grapples that are easy to establish and easy to break might lead to very dynamic and changing battle conditions, which might not be a bad thing.
Sure, the critter doesn't get to use its own potentially-Expertise'd skill to escape, but I'm not sure I agree with that idea. One should be able to train their grappling ability, as well as train to escape grapples. I do like the smoother, less fiddly and weird rules but I'm not sure I entirely appreciate the edge-case jank it introduces. Something for me to ruminate on and perhaps try out if I can before filling out a survey.
I do agree that there should be some way to build to be a better grappler.
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Yurei, that is true, I had forgotten about the Action to break the grapple, but lets just play it out for a second.
A grapples B. Hits.
B is grappled. it is now their turn.
They have an action, a bonus action, no movement. At the end of their turn they can attempt to break the grapple. They have an action and a bonus action to try and deal with or assist with that roll.
They can attack their grappler at no penalty ("im not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!")
They could cast a spell to force their enemy away, Thunderwave, sleep, hideous laughter, the list goes on.
They could wild shape into something strong. "You are now staring at a growling bear that you are attempting to hold around the neck".
So I don't think there's a ton of difference between action to break loose or automatic attempt at the end of the turn.
Also of note is the Grapple + Prone combo. Let's say you get taken down and you use your action to escape, you get your movement back and you can stand up and move. Now however you get loose, your turn ends with you still prone. That's NOT a good place to be in and likely is not going to end up with you getting a chance to get back up. So your best choice of action might be to take the Dodge action and then hope you make the DC at the end of the turn! Thanks Stoutstein, I knew i was forgetting something, cant dodge with a 0 speed.
I also just noticed that knock prone is just part of the unarmed attack. No roll to avoid, you get hit you get knocked prone via the shove option. If they have Tavern Brawler, you get hit, you take damage, AND you end up prone. Oof. Those tavern brawling monks are gonna be sweeping legs left right and center. nevermind, reread that. Tavern Brawler is more restrictive than i took it for at first.
My main concern is that this is going to lead to situations where someone is essentially grappled forever. If a player or monster gets grappled they can only break out at the very end of their turn, which means the thing that's keeping them grappled will get another turn to grapple them again. So anything with a multiattack can fairly easily keep something grappled (and prone, giving them advantage to keep the train going, if they knock them down) pretty much as long as they want. Yes they might have to spend one attack every time the grapple breaks to reestablish it, but I'm not quite sure if that is a big enough cost. Will probably have to test it out and see how it plays out in game.
So what are we worried about here? Someone, maybe a wizard, getting grapple proned forever? Theoretically they could still Misty Step away or if they had to, take the Dodge Action proactively to get Advantage on their Dex Escape Save as well as protect from the next Grapple attempt. 1DD grapples are theoretically easier to escape from then current rules, because the grappler can't Expertise into something to boost the DC.
Edit: Nope, I keep forgetting that Dodge doesn't work if your speed is 0.
Characters/entities with strong physical saves will break grapples as effortlessly as they break spellcasters' spells targeting those saves. How often have you heard the old saw about CON-targeting saving-throw spells not being worth learning because no monster in the history of D&D has ever failed a CON save? Similar logic applies here - many of the things one would be most concerned with pinning and place and halting the movement of are the things most adept at making STR or DEX saves.
Characters/entities with strong physical saves will break grapples as effortlessly as they break spellcasters' spells targeting those saves. How often have you heard the old saw about CON-targeting saving-throw spells not being worth learning because no monster in the history of D&D has ever failed a CON save? Similar logic applies here - many of the things one would be most concerned with pinning and place and halting the movement of are the things most adept at making STR or DEX saves.
True, but that doesn't mean they will be waltzing through fields of grapplers ignoring their feeble attempts. One successful grapple and they are still stopped and cannot break free until after their turn is over. So it is still going to be a hindrance.
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So what are we worried about here? Someone, maybe a wizard, getting grapple proned forever? Theoretically they could still Misty Step away or if they had to, take the Dodge Action proactively to get Advantage on their Dex Escape Save as well as protect from the next Grapple attempt. 1DD grapples are theoretically easier to escape from then current rules, because the grappler can't Expertise into something to boost the DC.
The problem with that is that you lose the benefits of the dodge action if your speed is reduced to 0, which grappling does. So it can help avoid the grapple to begin with, but doesn't help you escape one. Also, I'm not talking specifically about wizards, or casters, or even player characters here, just more of a general potential concern. It's also not really the escaping the grapple part that might be problematic. It's mostly that once you get grappled, you can effectively be held there forever since you can't move after breaking it or before they have a chance to reapply it. Which admittedly may not be the end of the world (I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet so I couldn't tell you), but it's something that I can see potentially being an issue.
I'm pretty sure Ophidimancer just cracked the code. You can shove the grappler off you as an action by doing an unarmed strike and moving them 5ft away. Which mechanically and logically makes sense.
I wonder though. If A is grappled by B, uses an action to shove B away. Does their speed revert from 0? I assume yes since the condition ended and the 'doesn't change' is just an anti-shenanigans clause for effects that increase or change your speed. If it doesn't, could a monk or rogue with a bonus action dash manage to scramble away after breaking the hold with an action?
I can certainly see it cinematically. Rogue kicks off the Grappler and then scrambles back to their feet, monk does a cool little kip up or spinnarooni.
I'm not really that concerned with Str based melee combatants being stuck in grapples. That is basically where they want to be to begin with, and even though a Grappler is likely not their preferred target, pretty sure they can make do and lay in with the bonk stick.
Unless the creature grappling has reach it should not be a problem.
You don't have disadvantage on attack rolls against the one grappling you, so to get free and move without getting locked into a permanent state of grapple.
1. melee attack the person grappling you.
2. Choose Shove.
3. they have been moved away from grappling you, breaking the grapple.
So the playtest has some fundamental, but kind of subtle, changes to grappling. To summarize, whenever you make an unarmed strike you get three options: damage as normal for 1+Strength mod, impose the Grappled condition in your target as long as you have a free hand, or shove the target either 5 ft away or prone.
The Grappled condition imposes disadvantage on the target for all attacks except those against the grappler. The grappler can move the target, but while they are moving a grappled target they receive the Slowed condition, which means that every ft traveled costs an extra ft, all attacks against the Slowed creature have Advantage, and the Slowed creature has Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws.
A creature that is Grappled gets to make a Strength or Dexterity Saving Throw at the end of each of their turns to remove the condition vs an Escape DC of 8 + Proficiency + Strength mod of the grappler.
For me, the big takeaway is that grapples and shoves can be done with all unarmed strikes and doesn't depend on the Attack Action. This opens up grapples and shoves on opportunity attacks as well as Monk Flurry of Blows. I think this a wonderful level of tactical complexity for martial characters that was not there before. Strength based martial characters now have an actual control option that will allow them to actually deny enemies the ability to just walk past them and go after the rest of the party. It also gives Monks the kind of martial arts grappling and control that many have wanted for awhile. The Slowed condition applying only while moving a Grappled target also forces the grappler to think tactically. I think this is a wonderful level of depth for martial characters and I can't wait to see if martials get any more subtle but impactful changes.
Now the other bit that was changed was the decoupling of grappling and Athletics, or any Skill at all. I'm not 100% sure about that change, but I'm willing to see it out. It does make it difficult to actually build a character around grappling besides just maxing out Strength. It remains to be seen if there are things like Feat support for a grappling build. I hope there is. I also really really REALLY hope that Monks get to use their Dexterity for the Escape DC instead of Strength.
What do you all think?
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Correct. Under the UA rules, the test to be grappled or not is based entirely on accuracy and relative size - a Strength 8 Elf can grapple a warhorse and provided they land the hit, the horse is grappled until it escapes. As a corollary, Acrobatics is an even worse skill than it used to be (Athletics is also nerfed, but not as badly). This is a buff to Dexterity-based grapplers (i.e. monks), as you can land the grapple using it. It also nerfs grapples in the sense that it's impossible to use expertise in a skill to get better at grappling (both inflicting and escaping).
Correct. Note that just like the current rules, there's no actual clarity on handling moving your grappled target relative to you, the grappler - e.g. if a bugbear grabs someone at 10' out and simply wants to drag them 5' closer so the grapple can stay up (assuming your DM fixes the UA, which fails to cover the presumably true fact that an unarmed strike grapple has range equal to your reach with unarmed strikes).
Note that this ignores the grappler's strength - our Elf described above can grab and drag the warhorse, and being Strength 8 as opposed to 20 doesn't make it any harder, regardless of the target's weight. The only intrinsic benefit to Strength for a grappler under these rules is maintaining the grapple.
Indeed. This has several interesting interactions with grappling as a whole, one of which is that if you grapple a target, it's guaranteed to stay grappled for all of your turn and all of its turn. It's not possible escape a grapple and then move.
That is absolutely another consequence of these rules.
Dexterity is still the King of Ability Scores for this, because you don't need any Strength to land the grapple, and once you land it, the target can't escape until they can no longer move, as I mentioned above. However, if you want to lean into grappling as a mechanic, it remains important to figure out ways to be bigger so you don't stop being useful against big targets.
Martials tend to make the most attacks, so one of the impactful changes in the UA is the new strong incentive to fish for inspiration by making needless ability checks - for example, there's now an incentive to long jump every round if you can, as you're entitled to an Athletics check when you do so to jump higher, which is another opportunity for rolling a 20 and achieving Inspiration. Similarly, Rogues are big fans of their bonus action Hide now serving as an Inspiration generator, but because Sneak Attack doesn't crit any more, and Rogues have always been more reliant than others on crits for their DPR, I strongly suspect the net effect is a nerf to Rogues.
If you have a way to do it, probably an allied spellcaster, one of the best ways to game this mechanic is by putting yourself in a persistent AOE with a low save DC, like if you can employ a spell scroll of create bonfire to stand in, so you can, without needing to do anything in particular but stand in the AOE, roll a save every turn.
If they want to simply propagate the change into Monks, this will be an Astral Self-only ability, as right now only Astral Self Monks can Grapple with their Wisdom.
I think this is a step in the wrong direction in terms of skill utility - I'd rather have seen skills become more important, not less - and there are other changes that have deeply sketchy implications for immersive combats like a level 1 Strength 8 monk stopping a warhorse dead in its tracks. However, some of the changes are absolutely excellent, like what you said about being able to replace any Unarmed Strike with a Grapple or Shove.
Hopefully you'll be allowed to Shove with any bludgeoning weapon if they go forward with these rules.
1) Only Monks get to use Dexterity with their Unarmed Strikes so it's not all Dex based combatants that are going to be bonkers at grappling, just monks, let's not speak as if it affects anyone else. Otherwise it's still a Strength based endeavor. Frankly I think monks could use the love. Monks being able to use skill in place of brute strength is well within theme for them and doesn't seem sketchy to me.
2) I didn't bring up anything about the new nat 20 rules and inspiration, that's not the topic of discussion. Let's not get into that, please.
3) You want shoves on bludgeoning attacks in general and not just unarmed strikes?
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I think people should also look at this from the opposite perspective. Monsters can make grapple and shove with the same rules. That makes deciding whether to use your action to disengage or just take the hit a bit more important. The "tank" being grappled or even shoved down becomes a bit less useful. Since their isn't a save or opposed check, the "tank" can be grappled and dragged to the side leaving the rest of the group to the whims of the rest of enemies on the battle field. Basically all the things that were once the purview of a Grapple build becomes easy for every monster to do.
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Fair point, thank you! You're right, this does add even more tactical depth and consideration to martial combat than I had thought of. Still a positive, for me.
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I like this change, it simplifies things immensely.
It also means you can “crit” a grapple/shove for automatic success and Inspiration.
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Well, if the warhorse weighs 8x30=240 lbs, then yes, the elf can drag it. Good luck finding such light warhorse. The warhorse, though, can drag 18x30=540 lbs, easily dragging an elf that latches onto it. Unless it's one heavy elf.
I made very heavy use of Grappling on my last character, a Battlemaster Goliath. The powerful thing about Grapples was that it really didn't behave like normal combat. To be perfectly honest, the system for grappling just didn't fit and because of that, very few monster stat blocks could effectively defend against it because it was the only thing in the combat arena that actually relied on a proficiency capable skill (let alone the expertise that I put into it). So all in all, I'm actually happy about this change. It cleans up a pretty glaring hole and gives us some nice buffs in the process.
I agree that I hope that the Martial Arts trait of the monk does grant them the ability to use their dexterity as the DC for Grapple, though at the moment I'm not sure I'd want my monk being the Grappler due to the "Attacker has disadvantage on any attacks other than against the grappler" bit. With Monks as they currently are, I imagine the shove is far more inline with them. Hit, pushback, follow, hit, pushback, follow, Flurry of Blows, hit, pushback, follow, hit pushback, follow. That being said, I am certainly hoping for a monk who's more 'punch you in the face' then 'rabbit punch you in the back of the head and run away'. Tavern Brawler does help a bit with this, allowing full martial arts damage while also forced movement, hoping the Grappler feat fills in the rest of the blank and uses some sort of 'restrained' condition to avoid them hitting the monk back at all.
The one thing I would really want them to address and incorporate into the grappling rules is the <Powerful Build> Trait. I feel like a little add to the line "Powerful Build. You count as one Size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can grapple, push, drag, or lift" would not be out of line.
The new Unarmed/Grapple rules are...curious. Many people forget that Unarmed attacks do not have to be with the hands; you can kick, headbutt, knee strike, or anything else as an Unarmed attack, which means even sword-board fighters can kick someone in the stones and knock them prone without having to be Athletic to do it. I cannot imagine that there won't be feat support for it either, or subclasses that don't get special bonuses/abilities that key off of unarmed/grappling.
The actual grappling rules themselves, I'm not entirely certain about. Being able to grapple on AoO is fantastic, but it used to be that someone would have to put in effort to break a grapple. If a target was grappled and didn't want to be, it had to burn its action to escape. Now it just gets to roll an Escape Check for free ninety-nine on every turn, and against a much less strict escape DC. Sure, the critter doesn't get to use its own potentially-Expertise'd skill to escape, but I'm not sure I agree with that idea. One should be able to train their grappling ability, as well as train to escape grapples. I do like the smoother, less fiddly and weird rules but I'm not sure I entirely appreciate the edge-case jank it introduces. Something for me to ruminate on and perhaps try out if I can before filling out a survey.
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Yes, I am betting a revised Grappler that is not poop is coming down the line.
But also it doesn't happen until the end of its turn, so the grappler has a whole turn to drag the target somewhere. Then the target has one whole turn stuck at Speed 0 before they can make the Escape Save and even that is at the end of the turn, so the grappler could very well just grapple them again. One of the break conditions is if something moves the target out of "the grapple's range" (which is yet undefined, but presumably the range of the unarmed strike?) without using their move, but oddly it doesn't mention moving the grappler otherwise the target could shove the grappler away in order to break the grapple. I feel like that should work, but I'm not sure if it works as written.
Still, before the target has the chance to break out, they are still are at the mercy of the grappler for at least a whole turn before they can do anything about it. Grapples that are easy to establish and easy to break might lead to very dynamic and changing battle conditions, which might not be a bad thing.
I do agree that there should be some way to build to be a better grappler.
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Yurei, that is true, I had forgotten about the Action to break the grapple, but lets just play it out for a second.
A grapples B. Hits.
B is grappled. it is now their turn.
They have an action, a bonus action, no movement. At the end of their turn they can attempt to break the grapple. They have an action and a bonus action to try and deal with or assist with that roll.
They can attack their grappler at no penalty ("im not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!")
They could cast a spell to force their enemy away, Thunderwave, sleep, hideous laughter, the list goes on.
They could wild shape into something strong. "You are now staring at a growling bear that you are attempting to hold around the neck".
So I don't think there's a ton of difference between action to break loose or automatic attempt at the end of the turn.
Also of note is the Grapple + Prone combo. Let's say you get taken down and you use your action to escape, you get your movement back and you can stand up and move. Now however you get loose, your turn ends with you still prone. That's NOT a good place to be in and likely is not going to end up with you getting a chance to get back up.
So your best choice of action might be to take the Dodge action and then hope you make the DC at the end of the turn!Thanks Stoutstein, I knew i was forgetting something, cant dodge with a 0 speed.I also just noticed that knock prone is just part of the unarmed attack. No roll to avoid, you get hit you get knocked prone via the shove option.
If they have Tavern Brawler, you get hit, you take damage, AND you end up prone. Oof. Those tavern brawling monks are gonna be sweeping legs left right and center.nevermind, reread that. Tavern Brawler is more restrictive than i took it for at first.My main concern is that this is going to lead to situations where someone is essentially grappled forever. If a player or monster gets grappled they can only break out at the very end of their turn, which means the thing that's keeping them grappled will get another turn to grapple them again. So anything with a multiattack can fairly easily keep something grappled (and prone, giving them advantage to keep the train going, if they knock them down) pretty much as long as they want. Yes they might have to spend one attack every time the grapple breaks to reestablish it, but I'm not quite sure if that is a big enough cost. Will probably have to test it out and see how it plays out in game.
So what are we worried about here? Someone, maybe a wizard, getting grapple proned forever? Theoretically they could still Misty Step away or if they had to, take the Dodge Action proactively to get Advantage on their Dex Escape Save as well as protect from the next Grapple attempt. 1DD grapples are theoretically easier to escape from then current rules, because the grappler can't Expertise into something to boost the DC.
Edit: Nope, I keep forgetting that Dodge doesn't work if your speed is 0.
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
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Characters/entities with strong physical saves will break grapples as effortlessly as they break spellcasters' spells targeting those saves. How often have you heard the old saw about CON-targeting saving-throw spells not being worth learning because no monster in the history of D&D has ever failed a CON save? Similar logic applies here - many of the things one would be most concerned with pinning and place and halting the movement of are the things most adept at making STR or DEX saves.
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True, but that doesn't mean they will be waltzing through fields of grapplers ignoring their feeble attempts. One successful grapple and they are still stopped and cannot break free until after their turn is over. So it is still going to be a hindrance.
Canto alla vita
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ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The problem with that is that you lose the benefits of the dodge action if your speed is reduced to 0, which grappling does. So it can help avoid the grapple to begin with, but doesn't help you escape one. Also, I'm not talking specifically about wizards, or casters, or even player characters here, just more of a general potential concern. It's also not really the escaping the grapple part that might be problematic. It's mostly that once you get grappled, you can effectively be held there forever since you can't move after breaking it or before they have a chance to reapply it. Which admittedly may not be the end of the world (I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet so I couldn't tell you), but it's something that I can see potentially being an issue.
I'm pretty sure Ophidimancer just cracked the code. You can shove the grappler off you as an action by doing an unarmed strike and moving them 5ft away. Which mechanically and logically makes sense.
I wonder though. If A is grappled by B, uses an action to shove B away. Does their speed revert from 0? I assume yes since the condition ended and the 'doesn't change' is just an anti-shenanigans clause for effects that increase or change your speed. If it doesn't, could a monk or rogue with a bonus action dash manage to scramble away after breaking the hold with an action?
I can certainly see it cinematically. Rogue kicks off the Grappler and then scrambles back to their feet, monk does a cool little kip up or spinnarooni.
I'm not really that concerned with Str based melee combatants being stuck in grapples. That is basically where they want to be to begin with, and even though a Grappler is likely not their preferred target, pretty sure they can make do and lay in with the bonk stick.
Unless the creature grappling has reach it should not be a problem.
You don't have disadvantage on attack rolls against the one grappling you, so to get free and move without getting locked into a permanent state of grapple.
1. melee attack the person grappling you.
2. Choose Shove.
3. they have been moved away from grappling you, breaking the grapple.
4. move and do the rest of your actions.
I dig the ease of use of these new rules, but I'm concerned it may weaken and already niche option.