I said save vs strength as its what sets the Dc is strength.
Id say use dex or strength for making the save victims choice.
And AC may be the simplest but it makes less sense than a save imo, and its not that much simpler if any than someone making a save. Like I've said in play testing I've pulled in some really weird feeling results with the target AC method. It may not feel weird to you, but for me it really felt off and I don't think it works very well. Some of the easiest targets to grapple and well shove since it uses the same mechanic were ones it made the least sense for. Can I come up with excuses for why it works, sure but you always know you are just coming up with excuses for something that feels off.
I'm okay with it not being a skill check as it might make experts the best wrestlers instead of warriors, but the attack roll just didn't sit right. I initially was for it, but the more we play tested it the weirder it felt.
So then it’s a contest or are you saying a save against a flat dc set by the attackers strength. If its a flat DC set by the attackers STR that weird because it means that every time someone goes for the grapple they are at their peak. Grappling becomes like spell casting. I cast grapple you have to save against DC 15. I don’t like it. I prefer as a DM for players to roll and as a player I like to roll.
probably or it could be weakened. + Ac vs first attack like the various parry moves, +ac equal to proficiency bonus, +2AC +1AC per spell level etc.
I'd be tempted by 'AC becomes at least 18, +1 per spell level above 1'. That's still perfectly solid for a low level wizard who might well be starting at AC 12, but it's no longer the thing to stack onto tank builds and it loses power at high level, like other first level spells.
Which should be easier to put in a submission hold and drag around the dungeon? A Goblin or an Ogre?
Apparently it's the Ogre now. By a long shot. AC 11 vs 15.
Most Large monsters have low AC but high Strength. It's easier to wrestle a warhorse than it is the guard riding it with these rules. I'm sorry it just didn't make sense any way you look at it.
So then it’s a contest or are you saying a save against a flat dc set by the attackers strength. If its a flat DC set by the attackers STR that weird because it means that every time someone goes for the grapple they are at their peak. Grappling becomes like spell casting. I cast grapple you have to save against DC 15. I don’t like it. I prefer as a DM for players to roll and as a player I like to roll.
Why not do that for spells as well? Plenty of non-spell things in the game are save negates already, including extremely grapple-like effects such as entangle.
Which should be easier to put in a submission hold and drag around the dungeon? A Goblin or an Ogre?
Apparently it's the Ogre now. By a long shot. AC 11 vs 15.
Most Large monsters have low AC but high Strength. It's easier to wrestle a warhorse than it is the guard riding it with these rules. I'm sorry it just didn't make sense any way you look at it.
Yup, that is basically what I bumped into, upthread i pointed out that our wizard grappled and drug a ogre while on horseback. Whether a horse should be able to or not, who knows but by the rules the 8 strength wizard could grapple and drag the 800 lb ogre i just let the horse increase that slowed movement rate a bit. It felt bonkers, he would have a reasonable chance to shove a ogre off a cliff even. And like I actually wouldn't have much of a problem with this at level 20, but this was a level 4 play test. And even if I could accept shoving and grappling the ogre it is harder to grapple a goblin, a commoner in studded leather would be harder to shove or grapple, it just feels weird.
Now maybe once monster and AC design comes out it will look cleaner, but with the materials we have and what I play tested it felt off and not a little off.
I said save vs strength as its what sets the Dc is strength.
Id say use dex or strength for making the save victims choice.
And AC may be the simplest but it makes less sense than a save imo, and its not that much simpler if any than someone making a save. Like I've said in play testing I've pulled in some really weird feeling results with the target AC method. It may not feel weird to you, but for me it really felt off and I don't think it works very well. Some of the easiest targets to grapple and well shove since it uses the same mechanic were ones it made the least sense for. Can I come up with excuses for why it works, sure but you always know you are just coming up with excuses for something that feels off.
I'm okay with it not being a skill check as it might make experts the best wrestlers instead of warriors, but the attack roll just didn't sit right. I initially was for it, but the more we play tested it the weirder it felt.
So then it’s a contest or are you saying a save against a flat dc set by the attackers strength. If its a flat DC set by the attackers STR that weird because it means that every time someone goes for the grapple they are at their peak. Grappling becomes like spell casting. I cast grapple you have to save against DC 15. I don’t like it. I prefer as a DM for players to roll and as a player I like to roll.
Personally I'd prefer a DC based on a attack roll result, but it seems they apparently don't want opposed rolls so a flat DC is what I was suggesting. Unified mechanics are easier or whatever. I'm fine with more complex systems, I think simple is over rated. As long as its clearly described how it works I don't mind different rules for different attacks. But, I get that is not what they are shooting for, and the results now just kind of suck. 5e wasn't great here as well since almost no monsters are designed with proficiency in mind so opposed checks were weirdly skewed. But at least it felt a bit more intuitive in that it was harder to grapple and shove large strong creatures than small weak ones.
Which should be easier to put in a submission hold and drag around the dungeon? A Goblin or an Ogre?
Apparently it's the Ogre now. By a long shot. AC 11 vs 15.
Most Large monsters have low AC but high Strength. It's easier to wrestle a warhorse than it is the guard riding it with these rules. I'm sorry it just didn't make sense any way you look at it.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
Probably a good stepping stone for a mounting mechanic, though. Grab a creature bigger than yourself, climb on top of it to stab it into its vulnerable spot while it tries to shake you off.
Which should be easier to put in a submission hold and drag around the dungeon? A Goblin or an Ogre?
Apparently it's the Ogre now. By a long shot. AC 11 vs 15.
Most Large monsters have low AC but high Strength. It's easier to wrestle a warhorse than it is the guard riding it with these rules. I'm sorry it just didn't make sense any way you look at it.
Yup, that is basically what I bumped into, upthread i pointed out that our wizard grappled and drug a ogre while on horseback. Whether a horse should be able to or not, who knows but by the rules the 8 strength wizard could grapple and drag the 800 lb ogre i just let the horse increase that slowed movement rate a bit. It felt bonkers, he would have a reasonable chance to shove a ogre off a cliff even. And like I actually wouldn't have much of a problem with this at level 20, but this was a level 4 play test. And even if I could accept shoving and grappling the ogre it is harder to grapple a goblin, a commoner in studded leather would be harder to shove or grapple, it just feels weird.
Now maybe once monster and AC design comes out it will look cleaner, but with the materials we have and what I play tested it felt off and not a little off.
I hadn't even thought of the full implications until you mentioned that. It's unbelievable! We tried grappling exactly one time in the game we played, over the course of about 6 combats, and hated the result. But you got me thinking about the monster design philosophy as a whole. The entire monster manual was written with the idea that large monsters are generally easier to hit, but have more HP. Every big beast is like this until you get up into dragons and things with high natural armor. It's how they intended it to work, and now it makes no sense at all.
Maybe they will redesign all the monsters with this in mind, but why? To avoid one single extra roll? (And forget backwards compatibility with adventure) The lack of proficiency is a good point. If they really must change monsters for grappling, just give them proficiency in the skills that make sense. Sure, Ogres could have some Athletics too.
Kamchatmonk also makes another good point about weight limits. I hadn't considered that because the rules don't mention it as a factor at all. They are written like any forced movement ability. Repelling Blast doesn't mention weight or even size.
It makes a lot of sense to consider weight, but brings up even more problems. What does an Ogre weigh? We'd have to have a weight listed on every monster entry. A draft horse weighs up to 2000 lbs (900kg)! If all Large monsters are gong to weigh in at those numbers, then we shouldn't be able to move them at all. No PC can drag that much without magic. A STR of 20 has a max drag weight of 600 lbs. Double that for the few races with Powerful Build. They still can't drag a horse.
There are a lot of weird interactions that come up using the UA grappling rules. They are badly written and poorly thought out. I don't really like the current grappling rules, but they work much better than the UA rules. I can see what they are trying to do, but this version is just broken.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
I could put up a long rant here about the fact that what D&D really needs to do is work out a proper (and playable!) system for executing stunts and other non-standard attacks *in combat.* Then the grappling rules would just be a simple subset, feats could be built to improve your chances at them, and so on. But the base system needs to exist FIRST, rather than this constant attempt to create rules for grappling, pushing, shoving, disarming, et cetera, etc.
But rather than rebuild the system from the ground up, let's try this: Grabbing is an unarmed attack, but *grappling* is wrestling, and one of the things that should affect it is SIZE. I would propose, for example, disadvantage against an opponent that is one size category larger than you, and being unable to grapple a creature two sizes or more larger. Something like that. Certain weapons could grant advantage in grappling/grabbing, like lassos, man-catchers, or whips.
So a strong human might be able to successfully grapple a horse, ogre or other large creature, but any creature of huge size or larger is right out. That covers Hercules engaging in a grapple with the Nemean Lion, or a bull, which makes sense. But nobody should be grappling a bull elephant.
That provides a rationale for truly exceptional strength scores (or magical items) that allow characters to exceed these limits - Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or a Belt of Giant Strength, for example, might effectively make you equivalent to the creature in question for this purpose. Now Thor being able to wrestle a giant makes sense.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
I wish we knew.
As far as I'm aware, they haven't explicitly stated it as a goal. But new rules keep replacing old ones that used to have contested rolls: Grapple, Hide, persuasions.
It might have something to do with VTT coding, or simpler adventure design. It might be to help DMs make decisions or speed up the game. I have no idea. But all of these changes have some weird side effects that aren't great.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
One thing about contested rolls is expertise can really play into it. for me this was never a problem as a player or dm. It rewarded players that preferred to focus on one tactic. (with its strengths and weaknesses) for things like kenku mimicry or actor it was almost necessary just to get effective use out of it. for grappling/ escaping grapples. I can see how some might complain about it being overpowered.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
Monsters can totally Grapple and Shove, mine do from time to time.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
I wish we knew.
As far as I'm aware, they haven't explicitly stated it as a goal. But new rules keep replacing old ones that used to have contested rolls: Grapple, Hide, persuasions.
It might have something to do with VTT coding, or simpler adventure design. It might be to help DMs make decisions or speed up the game. I have no idea. But all of these changes have some weird side effects that aren't great.
Agreed. I for one like contested rolls, I think they add something to the game. Something pseudorealistic even.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
Monsters can totally Grapple and Shove, mine do from time to time.
I have never seen a contest of athletics grapple listed on a monster sheet; instead, we have things like
Boar: on a hit, target must make a Strength save or be knocked prone.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
Monsters can totally Grapple and Shove, mine do from time to time.
I have never seen a contest of athletics grapple listed on a monster sheet; instead, we have things like
Boar: on a hit, target must make a Strength save or be knocked prone.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
Monsters can totally Grapple and Shove, mine do from time to time.
I have never seen a contest of athletics grapple listed on a monster sheet; instead, we have things like
Boar: on a hit, target must make a Strength save or be knocked prone.
This chapter provides the rules you need for your characters and monsters to engage in combat, whether it is a brief skirmish or an extended conflict in a dungeon or on a field of battle. Throughout this chapter, the rules address you, the player or Dungeon Master. The Dungeon Master controls all the monsters and nonplayer characters involved in combat, and each other player controls an adventurer. “You” can also mean the character or monster that you control.
This means all player actions are available to monsters. although monsters may have a secondary option in their action block.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
Monsters can totally Grapple and Shove, mine do from time to time.
I have never seen a contest of athletics grapple listed on a monster sheet; instead, we have things like
Boar: on a hit, target must make a Strength save or be knocked prone.
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action.
Grapples and Shoves are options that are available to all creatures.
So then it’s a contest or are you saying a save against a flat dc set by the attackers strength. If its a flat DC set by the attackers STR that weird because it means that every time someone goes for the grapple they are at their peak. Grappling becomes like spell casting. I cast grapple you have to save against DC 15. I don’t like it. I prefer as a DM for players to roll and as a player I like to roll.
I'd be tempted by 'AC becomes at least 18, +1 per spell level above 1'. That's still perfectly solid for a low level wizard who might well be starting at AC 12, but it's no longer the thing to stack onto tank builds and it loses power at high level, like other first level spells.
Which should be easier to put in a submission hold and drag around the dungeon? A Goblin or an Ogre?
Apparently it's the Ogre now. By a long shot. AC 11 vs 15.
Most Large monsters have low AC but high Strength. It's easier to wrestle a warhorse than it is the guard riding it with these rules. I'm sorry it just didn't make sense any way you look at it.
Why not do that for spells as well? Plenty of non-spell things in the game are save negates already, including extremely grapple-like effects such as entangle.
Yup, that is basically what I bumped into, upthread i pointed out that our wizard grappled and drug a ogre while on horseback. Whether a horse should be able to or not, who knows but by the rules the 8 strength wizard could grapple and drag the 800 lb ogre i just let the horse increase that slowed movement rate a bit. It felt bonkers, he would have a reasonable chance to shove a ogre off a cliff even. And like I actually wouldn't have much of a problem with this at level 20, but this was a level 4 play test. And even if I could accept shoving and grappling the ogre it is harder to grapple a goblin, a commoner in studded leather would be harder to shove or grapple, it just feels weird.
Now maybe once monster and AC design comes out it will look cleaner, but with the materials we have and what I play tested it felt off and not a little off.
Personally I'd prefer a DC based on a attack roll result, but it seems they apparently don't want opposed rolls so a flat DC is what I was suggesting. Unified mechanics are easier or whatever. I'm fine with more complex systems, I think simple is over rated. As long as its clearly described how it works I don't mind different rules for different attacks. But, I get that is not what they are shooting for, and the results now just kind of suck. 5e wasn't great here as well since almost no monsters are designed with proficiency in mind so opposed checks were weirdly skewed. But at least it felt a bit more intuitive in that it was harder to grapple and shove large strong creatures than small weak ones.
And now compare their weight to your character's lift/drag/carry weight. Yes, it's easy to grab an ogre. Not that the ogre is that dodgy. So you grabbed it, then what? It's much heavier than you. You will just cling to ogre's leg like a koala.
Probably a good stepping stone for a mounting mechanic, though. Grab a creature bigger than yourself, climb on top of it to stab it into its vulnerable spot while it tries to shake you off.
I hadn't even thought of the full implications until you mentioned that. It's unbelievable! We tried grappling exactly one time in the game we played, over the course of about 6 combats, and hated the result. But you got me thinking about the monster design philosophy as a whole. The entire monster manual was written with the idea that large monsters are generally easier to hit, but have more HP. Every big beast is like this until you get up into dragons and things with high natural armor. It's how they intended it to work, and now it makes no sense at all.
Maybe they will redesign all the monsters with this in mind, but why? To avoid one single extra roll? (And forget backwards compatibility with adventure) The lack of proficiency is a good point. If they really must change monsters for grappling, just give them proficiency in the skills that make sense. Sure, Ogres could have some Athletics too.
Kamchatmonk also makes another good point about weight limits. I hadn't considered that because the rules don't mention it as a factor at all. They are written like any forced movement ability. Repelling Blast doesn't mention weight or even size.
It makes a lot of sense to consider weight, but brings up even more problems. What does an Ogre weigh? We'd have to have a weight listed on every monster entry. A draft horse weighs up to 2000 lbs (900kg)! If all Large monsters are gong to weigh in at those numbers, then we shouldn't be able to move them at all. No PC can drag that much without magic. A STR of 20 has a max drag weight of 600 lbs. Double that for the few races with Powerful Build. They still can't drag a horse.
There are a lot of weird interactions that come up using the UA grappling rules. They are badly written and poorly thought out. I don't really like the current grappling rules, but they work much better than the UA rules. I can see what they are trying to do, but this version is just broken.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
No, if you grab it you follow all the rules for a grab. The grab rules do not reference weight, so you can drag it around just like you would a kobold.
I could put up a long rant here about the fact that what D&D really needs to do is work out a proper (and playable!) system for executing stunts and other non-standard attacks *in combat.* Then the grappling rules would just be a simple subset, feats could be built to improve your chances at them, and so on. But the base system needs to exist FIRST, rather than this constant attempt to create rules for grappling, pushing, shoving, disarming, et cetera, etc.
But rather than rebuild the system from the ground up, let's try this: Grabbing is an unarmed attack, but *grappling* is wrestling, and one of the things that should affect it is SIZE. I would propose, for example, disadvantage against an opponent that is one size category larger than you, and being unable to grapple a creature two sizes or more larger. Something like that. Certain weapons could grant advantage in grappling/grabbing, like lassos, man-catchers, or whips.
So a strong human might be able to successfully grapple a horse, ogre or other large creature, but any creature of huge size or larger is right out. That covers Hercules engaging in a grapple with the Nemean Lion, or a bull, which makes sense. But nobody should be grappling a bull elephant.
That provides a rationale for truly exceptional strength scores (or magical items) that allow characters to exceed these limits - Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or a Belt of Giant Strength, for example, might effectively make you equivalent to the creature in question for this purpose. Now Thor being able to wrestle a giant makes sense.
Just a few thoughts.
I wasn't aware that Wizards had decided contested rolls are bad. Can anyone explain the design philosophy behind that stance?
I wish we knew.
As far as I'm aware, they haven't explicitly stated it as a goal. But new rules keep replacing old ones that used to have contested rolls: Grapple, Hide, persuasions.
It might have something to do with VTT coding, or simpler adventure design. It might be to help DMs make decisions or speed up the game. I have no idea. But all of these changes have some weird side effects that aren't great.
It's not clear that they've decided that, but I think the point is that grappling and shoving is really a unique mechanic in 5e (and not used by monsters), and they want something more standard.
One thing about contested rolls is expertise can really play into it. for me this was never a problem as a player or dm. It rewarded players that preferred to focus on one tactic. (with its strengths and weaknesses) for things like kenku mimicry or actor it was almost necessary just to get effective use out of it. for grappling/ escaping grapples. I can see how some might complain about it being overpowered.
Monsters can totally Grapple and Shove, mine do from time to time.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Agreed. I for one like contested rolls, I think they add something to the game. Something pseudorealistic even.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I have never seen a contest of athletics grapple listed on a monster sheet; instead, we have things like
From the player hand book on combat
This means all player actions are available to monsters. although monsters may have a secondary option in their action block.
Monsters can do more than just what appears in their stat blocks. They can also use actions/attacks/etc that are available to all creatures.
From the Basic Rules (and Monster Manual):
Grapples and Shoves are options that are available to all creatures.