This version of the EK would actually be super sweet, I think it’ll be my next “FIFY WotC” project.
A bit off-topic, but haven't really thought of how to improve the Arcane Trickster, or even if Arcane Trickster really needs improvement.
But positioning the EK to use buff spells without hampering their bonk seems like an obvious approach, to the point where I think WoTC didn't really put as much thought into its design as they should have.
The Eldritch Knight was a good subclass at what it was designed to achieve, right up until WotC gave us Hexblade and Bladesinger - at this point the EK becomes the 'bad' gish. It's not bad at all, it's actually rather good. They just then followed up with two very very powerful gish subclasses that get to cast higher level spells and don't really suffer for lesser martial output.
The arcane trickster doesn't need fixing really, it's got a stronger niche than Eldritch Knight and fills the niche very nicely.
PS. People often say stuff about War Magic being invalidated after fifth level because damage doesn't keep up with extra attack. I have to disagree, not because of any maths (I can't be bothered to run the numbers), but because the flexibility to cast Minor Illusion, or Mage Hand and do something non damaging while still being able to attack on your turn is strong. You just need to get out of the DPR mindset to see it.
However, I have never ever told you "to go **** yourselves" or anything resembling that. I have given numerous other suggestions to help solve the issue, telling me that I'm not interested in helping anyone when I am literally working on a homebrew Fighter subclass is inaccurate. Personally, I and many other people I know have needed Fighter to help adjust to the game. Please do not tell me that I shouldn't "join in" on discussions about the Fighters simplicity or complexity, because it hurts me deeply when people say that my perspective is not valid and that I shouldn't voice it.
So there, I've apologized for misunderstanding you. However, you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying too.
I'll start with this first. Thank you for apologising, and if I am misunderstanding what you're saying, I also apologise and will endeavour to correct that. My goal here is not to attack anyone or take anything from anyone, my goal is to find a way for both sides to compromise in a way that both sides can continue playing the game we all as a community love playing.
In addition, to clarify, my intention with telling you not to join in was not because I believe your opinion to be invalid; it was that, from what you had said thus far, I could see no benefit you could gain from joining in. By your own admission, you believed that none of this can ever actually solve the issues we're talking about, and all of this is just homebrew discussion; if that is true, then you have nothing to worry about with regards to losing the simple fighter you love, and joining in on a discussion about homebrew used at tables you don't play in does not feel particularly constructive or healthy, for either side - hence my belief that there is nothing for you to gain from joining these discussion. I stand by these points. However. I apologise for wording it in a way that hurt you. That was not my intent, and I will try not to in the future.
On a separate note, if you are willing to attempt another pass at compromise, I have detailed another idea I have that takes some of your issues with the first "damage-only maneuver for simple fighters" idea into consideration, here:
I think this is a good idea, I think moving them away from the class (like spells!) means that you can separate the content for simple fighters and compelx fighters. Perhaps something like:
Combat Superiority
2nd-level Fighter feature
You can demonstrate your tremendous skill in battle. You gain X superiority dice, which are d8s, and whenever you make an attack or damage roll, you can add one of those d8s to that roll. Alternatively, you can learn Y maneuvers from the maneuvers list, provided in chapter Z (which you can then use as a battle master would). The dice increase as you go up in level. If you chose maneuvers, you gain more as you go up in level.
Something short, sweet, and allows you to keep simplicity OR take complexity without making complexity fundamentally superior to simplicity, because that's already the issue between martials and spellcasters.
The Eldritch Knight was a good subclass at what it was designed to achieve, right up until WotC gave us Hexblade and Bladesinger - at this point the EK becomes the 'bad' gish. It's not bad at all, it's actually rather good. They just then followed up with two very very powerful gish subclasses that get to cast higher level spells and don't really suffer for lesser martial output.
Right on the money. I do think the restriction to Evocation isn't great, but I don't think its the biggest detriment to the EK; I think it's the fact that Bladesinger gets a superior Extra Attack and (IMO) better features across the board, plus that Int boost to AC which is basically unmatched by any other martial, while Hexblade lets characters with already full spellcasting go almost completely SAD into Charisma and come out a great gish.
The arcane trickster doesn't need fixing really, it's got a stronger niche than Eldritch Knight and fills the niche very nicely.
PS. People often say stuff about War Magic being invalidated after fifth level because damage doesn't keep up with extra attack. I have to disagree, not because of any maths (I can't be bothered to run the numbers), but because the flexibility to cast Minor Illusion, or Mage Hand and do something non damaging while still being able to attack on your turn is strong. You just need to get out of the DPR mindset to see it.
RPGBOT did the maths for the DPR here, and the conclusion for EKs is that War Magic is better than Extra Attack in terms of damage until 11th level, and it actually still remains better even into 20th level if you're always triggering the extra effects of Booming/Green-Flame Blade. The main distinction there is that it isn't as reliable as four attacks, since you won't always be triggering those extra effects, which is why I usually say that EK's magic will usually be oustripped by their pure combat reliability. The other assumption RPGBOT made, to simplify the maths (cos its a looot of maths) is that the fighter isn't using a power attack feat; since those increase exponentially with attacks, this might put the fighter above, but it does also massively reduce their reliability, so who knows.
Now on the subject of flexibility, I absolutely agree, especially with Minor Illusion. I played an EK once, a gladiator, who would Minor Illusion to create walls completely blocking the space between her and an opponent, allowing her to move away without worring about opportunity attacks since they can't see her through the wall. I do agree that War Magic allows for flexibility without worrying about wasting your turn or not getting to do any damage, etc. However, to agree with your own previous point, the reason the EK, and specifically War Magic, feels bad to play IMO isn't because it's bad, but because the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature is better, and it comes online at a level earlier.
Stegodorkus, thank you for trying to keep the thread on track.
AndreGolin, I love your solution, and I’m going to use it as much as possible.
Simple fighter gang - an (in my opinion) balanced solution has been presented. Now that your arguments against it are not necessary (like before, when they were unwanted), can you leave us to discuss it in peace, without telling me to stop taking away the joy of simple fighter by discussing how to give it complexity in a forum WotC will most likely never read?
This version of the EK would actually be super sweet, I think it’ll be my next “FIFY WotC” project.
But positioning the EK to use buff spells without hampering their bonk seems like an obvious approach, to the point where I think WoTC didn't really put as much thought into its design as they should have.
RPGBOT did the maths for the DPR here, and the conclusion for EKs is that War Magic is better than Extra Attack in terms of damage until 11th level, and it actually still remains better even into 20th level if you're always triggering the extra effects of Booming/Green-Flame Blade. The main distinction there is that it isn't as reliable as four attacks, since you won't always be triggering those extra effects, which is why I usually say that EK's magic will usually be oustripped by their pure combat reliability. The other assumption RPGBOT made, to simplify the maths (cos its a looot of maths) is that the fighter isn't using a power attack feat; since those increase exponentially with attacks, this might put the fighter above, but it does also massively reduce their reliability, so who knows.
That's really interesting stuff - I think in terms of reliability it's important to remember that the EK does always have the fallback of extra attack if they think it's going to be more efficient. Thanks for finding that!
Elements of A, B, and C are all highly desirable. I do think an idea spawned by D would be good though, and that's breaking Superiority off of Battlemaster and making it its own thing. Have a section in the PHB for it, something like "Some classes, subclasses, or abilities may grant you access to Superiority. Superiority is a special pool of dice you can use to empower your attacks or occasionally enhance your abilities in other ways. If you have Superiority, you can..." and then describe the system without making reference to it being exclusive to Battlemaster. Make Superiority a class-neutral mechanic that can be tied into other classes, subclasses, feats, or even items, to broaden it out and make it much more useful and impactful.
This thread went back into its usual circles over night, so I wanted to take a minute to thank you for providing this feedback before it was lost entirely.
I appreciate it. This helps me understand a little better. At least for what one person is looking for. I do like the idea of making a separate section for maneuvers, especially if they plan up use them as feature options more often. Or if they make advanced versions of them. They've included them in a fighting style, a feat, and some other recent playtest material for different books. It makes more sense from an organizational standpoint to give them their own place in the book.
Sure. I do get tired of the disingenuous bad-faith circlejerk at times.
But to whit: -Making weapons and armor less boring would be an excellent way to not only improve fighter, but to make every class that uses weapons and armor less boring as well. There's a reason so many video games pay so much attention to equippables - the thing in your hands should matter, as does the armor you wear to stay alive. R5e makes them mostly superfluous, one is exactly the same as almost all the others before you get to Magic Swag. That makes it really hard to do things like care about your family's ancestral sword/armor when the apprentice blacksmith's first attempt at a blade and the mastersmith's lifelong work are the exact same weapon and there's nothing the game lets you do to differentiate between a village clod's first crude mace and a royal armory longsword.
-More impactful choices during chargen and level-up would be excellent. Fighting styles that aren't named Archery barely matter, and beyond that the fighter gets zero choices to make as it progresses beyond the subclass section Wizards didn't even want to give it. Feats are well and good, but most of them are jank and weird and don't really help the fighter feel like a Master of Combat. The average fighter is almost always better off just cranking numbers, and cranking numbers is never not the most boring option one can select. Easy yes, but it effectively changes nothing about your character. It's a nonupdate, and I always kinda sigh when I have to take one.
-Interesting abilities the fighter can employ as part of its base chassis would make it feel more aggressive and powerful. Yes, Action Surge is a thing, but it's ONE ability you get ONCE. However impactful it is, there's a limit to how far it can go. I understand that the devs have to step lightly with Special Abilities and Features because SFC, but even just making the fighters existing abilities suck less would be a start. There's no reason Second Wind can't be Prof uses per LR instead of once per day "short rest", as one example. I know fighters are supposed to be The Short Rest class, but that idea has largely failed. Working off the idea that SR abilities are a curiosity rather than an advantage seems like a better way to go about it to me.
Thanks, this is a lot of actionable stuff to work with. And I agree, fighting styles and warrior feats often just equate to bigger numbers/removing penalties. They don't usually give you very different ways to play actually. Short rest mechanics are another issue. They work fine at my table, but I do understand how inconvenient they are at others. I wish WotC would make them easier to use for every campaign style (since they don't appear to be going away.)
Now on the subject of flexibility, I absolutely agree, especially with Minor Illusion. I played an EK once, a gladiator, who would Minor Illusion to create walls completely blocking the space between her and an opponent, allowing her to move away without worring about opportunity attacks since they can't see her through the wall. I do agree that War Magic allows for flexibility without worrying about wasting your turn or not getting to do any damage, etc. However, to agree with your own previous point, the reason the EK, and specifically War Magic, feels bad to play IMO isn't because it's bad, but because the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature is better, and it comes online at a level earlier.
Technically it still allowed me to attack with War Magic, whereas disengaging doesn't, but tbh I did it because it was cool. She was a gladiator, her whole thing was being flashy.
So to discuss more along the lines of what I think we will realistically see with the fighter. I think level 1-5 will go unchanged, level 6 will get the feat AND the martial archetype feature, level 7 will probably have some new feature or they will move indomitable down to level 7 and give a new feature at 9. Level 10-13 will go unchanged with level 14 being the FINAL martial archetype feature unlike now where fighters get 5 such features, level 15 will be indomitable 3 or action surge 2, level 17 will be one of the 2 that you didn't get at 15 and level 18 will be 4 attacks.
The question is what will be the 1 extra feature we get to see on the fighter at level 7 or 9? A second fighting style feat or something else? Battle master maneuvers? easier crit chance? Something completely new? this will be interesting to see.
The eldritch knight seems to try to change the power fantasy to add a little sorcery for a "sword and sorcery" style character. I personally do not think the eldritch knight successfully fulfills this fantasy because their spells scale too slowly for evocation spells to be all that useful for a fighter.
Someone else made the suggestion that Eldritch Knight should have selected for abjuration and transmutation, instead of abjuration and evocation. Because transmutation is a school that actually buffs you in combat. And if cast on yourself only, it should be castable as a bonus action much earlier on.
Agree, IMO there are two ways that EK could be made amazing (1) letting them pick from all wizard spells - why not have a criminal-themed EK that specializes in Enchantment and Illusion? or (2) giving them fewer spell slots but faster spell slot scaling - closer to Warlock Pact Magic. To make it viable for them to use blast spells.
Wouldn't her own illusion block line of sight for her as well?
Yes, but I was playing with the Blind Fighting style, so my EK could see through it. Most of her spells where illusion (my DM let me pick the two schools of magic, so I picked Abjuration and Illusion, instead of Abjuration and Evocation). Very flavourful character.
This version of the EK would actually be super sweet, I think it’ll be my next “FIFY WotC” project.
A bit off-topic, but haven't really thought of how to improve the Arcane Trickster, or even if Arcane Trickster really needs improvement.
But positioning the EK to use buff spells without hampering their bonk seems like an obvious approach, to the point where I think WoTC didn't really put as much thought into its design as they should have.
The Eldritch Knight was a good subclass at what it was designed to achieve, right up until WotC gave us Hexblade and Bladesinger - at this point the EK becomes the 'bad' gish. It's not bad at all, it's actually rather good. They just then followed up with two very very powerful gish subclasses that get to cast higher level spells and don't really suffer for lesser martial output.
I love Bladesingers, but Eldritch Knight has its own niche. Assuming heavy weapons and armor - compared to a bladesinger you will do slightly more melee damage and have a better base AC out of bladesong and a close AC in bladesong without using a bonus action or limits on uses. Also the value of Action Surge can not be understated in this discussion. A Bladesinger optimized for melee in particular is going to need a round to get a defensive spell up (Blur, PEG or Haste typically) and they are not going to last very long in melee if they don't. If you are getting short rests this is a lot of combats you will essentially be a round ahead of a bladesinger in melee. A EK is a better melee combatant than a Hexblade in every way IMO.
Bladesingers and Hexblades also have extremely limited weapon selections. A Bladesinger is locked into using daggers or a single martial weapon that she gets proficiency in. A Baldesinger that takes proficiency in a Rapier is screwed if she does not find a magic Rapier or Dagger. I guess she could find gauntlets of Ogre power and make due with a staff as well but in most games you are probably going to need to take the weapon master feat to get proficiency in the magic finesse weapons you have if you want to stay viable in melee at high levels. Hexblades can change up their weapon types but it is only the pact weapon that they get extra attack with. Disarm a Hexblade in melee and he is screwed and either needs to take an action making another pact weapon or he is down to one attack a round. At high levels this is a significant liability to these classes being primarily melee combatants.
Those classes are more powerful because of access to higher level spells, and they have options besides melee, but I don't think that is a hit on an EK, the EK still has its place.
Now on the subject of flexibility, I absolutely agree, especially with Minor Illusion. I played an EK once, a gladiator, who would Minor Illusion to create walls completely blocking the space between her and an opponent, allowing her to move away without worring about opportunity attacks since they can't see her through the wall. I do agree that War Magic allows for flexibility without worrying about wasting your turn or not getting to do any damage, etc. However, to agree with your own previous point, the reason the EK, and specifically War Magic, feels bad to play IMO isn't because it's bad, but because the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature is better, and it comes online at a level earlier.
I think this is going to be hard to do that with minor illusion unless you are a small race. Minor illusion is only a 5 foot cube.
The Bladesinger Extra attack is flat superior to War Magic in melee but at high levels it will fall behind the EK in play because the EK has the option of using extra attack to get 3 attacks or using war magic to get one and a cantrip.
In addition, to clarify, my intention with telling you not to join in was not because I believe your opinion to be invalid; it was that, from what you had said thus far, I could see no benefit you could gain from joining in. By your own admission, you believed that none of this can ever actually solve the issues we're talking about, and all of this is just homebrew discussion; if that is true, then you have nothing to worry about with regards to losing the simple fighter you love, and joining in on a discussion about homebrew used at tables you don't play in does not feel particularly constructive or healthy, for either side - hence my belief that there is nothing for you to gain from joining these discussion. I stand by these points. However. I apologise for wording it in a way that hurt you. That was not my intent, and I will try not to in the future.
To be honest, I've joined in on these conversations for a number of reasons. For one, hearing other peoples perspectives and making homebrew to allow them to play what they want makes me feel useful. For two, I like seeing other peoples homebrew ideas and giving feedback on them. And for three, I feel like there are a lot of players who like simplicity and I want their perspective to be heard.
Thanks for the apology on how you worded that though. It does mean a lot:) And I'm sorry if my feedback sounds dismissive, I am genuinely trying to say what I think about each idea so that that idea can reach its full potential. Also, making a subclass isn't as easy as I thought it was lol.
You can demonstrate your tremendous skill in battle. You gain X superiority dice, which are d8s, and whenever you make an attack or damage roll, you can add one of those d8s to that roll. Alternatively, you can learn Y maneuvers from the maneuvers list, provided in chapter Z (which you can then use as a battle master would). The dice increase as you go up in level. If you chose maneuvers, you gain more as you go up in level.
I really like this idea:) To be honest, one well-used maneuver is a lot better than one extra Superiority damage die, so I like that those numbers are now independent from each other. As the levels increase, the amount of Superiority and extra damage dice will both need to drastically increase too. This would mean massive changes to the base Fighter class, and I'd be fine with that, but I'm just saying that these changes might be really hard to do right.
But to whit: -Making weapons and armor less boring would be an excellent way to not only improve fighter, but to make every class that uses weapons and armor less boring as well. There's a reason so many video games pay so much attention to equippables - the thing in your hands should matter, as does the armor you wear to stay alive. R5e makes them mostly superfluous, one is exactly the same as almost all the others before you get to Magic Swag. That makes it really hard to do things like care about your family's ancestral sword/armor when the apprentice blacksmith's first attempt at a blade and the mastersmith's lifelong work are the exact same weapon and there's nothing the game lets you do to differentiate between a village clod's first crude mace and a royal armory longsword.
Funny that you mention video games here. Because every one that I've played is exactly like 5e: the baseline non-magical weapons all do pretty much the same thing: light attack, heavy attack, block. Only magical weapons do anything beyond that, and honestly... the vast majority of those simply do extra damage of one type or another which is very similar to 5e magic weapons. And in both 5e and videogames players generally end up picking just the weapon that does the most damage and using that over and over. There's no strategy or decisions here, and almost never anything actually different under the hood - just different animation sets plopped on top of the same underlying mechanics.
And didn't you complain about not wanting to have a whole backpack of different weapons for different situations? So it sounds to me that you don't actually want to have to choose the right weapon for the task, you just want weapons to be flat more powerful than they are now. Plus making Fighting Styles more impactful pidgeon-hole fighters into the same constraints as Hexblades and Bladesingers where they have their one weapon they are good at using that that's it. They comparatively are useless with anything else which is actually decreasing their options in combat.
Though I wonder what you would think of more expansive weapon-focus feats instead:
Ax Mastery
Axes include Handaxes, Sickles, Battleaxes, Greataxes. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI. Increase your Strength by +1
Ax Thrower. You can draw and throw an ax as part of the same attack. If you have a free hand you can make one thrown attack with an ax as a bonus action, you do not add your ability modifier to the damage of this attack.
Cleave. When you hit a target with a melee attack with an ax, you can immediately use your reaction to make one additional attack against a different creature that is also within your reach.
Sword Mastery
Swords include Daggers, Shortswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, Longswords, and Greatswords. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI. Increase your Strength or Dexterity by +1.
Parry. While wielding a sword, when you are hit by a weapon attack you can use your reaction to give yourself a bonus to your AC equal to your proficiency bonus against that attack potentially causing it to miss.
Repost. While wielding a sword, when a creature within 5ft of you misses you with an attack you can use your reaction to make one melee attack against the attacker.
Versatile Mastery
You have trained extensively with versatile weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI Increase your Strength by +1
Defensive Stance. While holding a versatile weapon in two hands, you gain a +1 bonus to your damage rolls with that weapon and your AC.
Dual Wielding. While holding a versatile weapon in one hand you can use your bonus action to draw and attack with a melee weapon that has the Light property using your other hand.
Club Mastery
Clubs include the club, greatclub, mace, light hammer, maul, morningstar, warpick and warhammer. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI Increase your Strength by +1
Stun. When you hit a creature with an attack with a club, you can forgo dealing damage to force the target to make a Constitution saving throw (DC = 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus) on a failure the target is stunned until the start of their next turn.
Shield Breaker. When you hit a target with a club, you can forgo dealing damage to destroy one shield that the target is using.
Whip Mastery
Whips include slings, whips, flails, and nets. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI Increase your Strength or Dexterity by +1
Melee Versatility. You can use the normal ranged attack of a whip to also make melee attacks with that weapon rather than making an improvised attack.
Long Reach. Your reach with whips increases by 5 ft.
Arcing Strike. You can use your action to make one melee attack with a whip against each creature within 10 ft of you.
Bow Mastery (replaces Sharpshooter)
Bows include longbows, and shortbows. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits:
ASI Increase your Dexterity by +1
Long Shot. Attacking beyond the normal range of your bow no longer imposes disadvantage on the attack roll.
Power Shot. When attacking within the normal range of your bow you add your Strength modifier (minimum 0) to the damage roll in addition to your Dexterity modifier.
Pinning Shot. When you hit a creature that is adjacent to a surface with an attack that deals piercing damage, you can forgo dealing damage and instead pin them to that surface, reducing their movement speeds to 0 until they or another creature use an action to free them.
Crossbow Mastery (replaces Crossbow Expert)
Crossbows include light, heavy, and hand crossbows.You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits:
ASI. Increase your Dexterity by +1.
Point Blank. Attacking a creature within 5ft of you does not have disadvantage.
Over-winch You add your proficiency bonus to the damage roll of the first attack you make with a crossbow on your turn. You can use a bonus action to activate this effect on the next attack you make.
Quick-winch You ignore the loading properties of crossbows.
The Eldritch Knight was a good subclass at what it was designed to achieve, right up until WotC gave us Hexblade and Bladesinger - at this point the EK becomes the 'bad' gish. It's not bad at all, it's actually rather good. They just then followed up with two very very powerful gish subclasses that get to cast higher level spells and don't really suffer for lesser martial output.
The arcane trickster doesn't need fixing really, it's got a stronger niche than Eldritch Knight and fills the niche very nicely.
PS. People often say stuff about War Magic being invalidated after fifth level because damage doesn't keep up with extra attack. I have to disagree, not because of any maths (I can't be bothered to run the numbers), but because the flexibility to cast Minor Illusion, or Mage Hand and do something non damaging while still being able to attack on your turn is strong. You just need to get out of the DPR mindset to see it.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I'll start with this first. Thank you for apologising, and if I am misunderstanding what you're saying, I also apologise and will endeavour to correct that. My goal here is not to attack anyone or take anything from anyone, my goal is to find a way for both sides to compromise in a way that both sides can continue playing the game we all as a community love playing.
In addition, to clarify, my intention with telling you not to join in was not because I believe your opinion to be invalid; it was that, from what you had said thus far, I could see no benefit you could gain from joining in. By your own admission, you believed that none of this can ever actually solve the issues we're talking about, and all of this is just homebrew discussion; if that is true, then you have nothing to worry about with regards to losing the simple fighter you love, and joining in on a discussion about homebrew used at tables you don't play in does not feel particularly constructive or healthy, for either side - hence my belief that there is nothing for you to gain from joining these discussion. I stand by these points. However. I apologise for wording it in a way that hurt you. That was not my intent, and I will try not to in the future.
On a separate note, if you are willing to attempt another pass at compromise, I have detailed another idea I have that takes some of your issues with the first "damage-only maneuver for simple fighters" idea into consideration, here:
Right on the money. I do think the restriction to Evocation isn't great, but I don't think its the biggest detriment to the EK; I think it's the fact that Bladesinger gets a superior Extra Attack and (IMO) better features across the board, plus that Int boost to AC which is basically unmatched by any other martial, while Hexblade lets characters with already full spellcasting go almost completely SAD into Charisma and come out a great gish.
RPGBOT did the maths for the DPR here, and the conclusion for EKs is that War Magic is better than Extra Attack in terms of damage until 11th level, and it actually still remains better even into 20th level if you're always triggering the extra effects of Booming/Green-Flame Blade. The main distinction there is that it isn't as reliable as four attacks, since you won't always be triggering those extra effects, which is why I usually say that EK's magic will usually be oustripped by their pure combat reliability. The other assumption RPGBOT made, to simplify the maths (cos its a looot of maths) is that the fighter isn't using a power attack feat; since those increase exponentially with attacks, this might put the fighter above, but it does also massively reduce their reliability, so who knows.
Now on the subject of flexibility, I absolutely agree, especially with Minor Illusion. I played an EK once, a gladiator, who would Minor Illusion to create walls completely blocking the space between her and an opponent, allowing her to move away without worring about opportunity attacks since they can't see her through the wall. I do agree that War Magic allows for flexibility without worrying about wasting your turn or not getting to do any damage, etc. However, to agree with your own previous point, the reason the EK, and specifically War Magic, feels bad to play IMO isn't because it's bad, but because the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature is better, and it comes online at a level earlier.
Stegodorkus, thank you for trying to keep the thread on track.
AndreGolin, I love your solution, and I’m going to use it as much as possible.
Simple fighter gang - an (in my opinion) balanced solution has been presented. Now that your arguments against it are not necessary (like before, when they were unwanted), can you leave us to discuss it in peace, without telling me to stop taking away the joy of simple fighter by discussing how to give it complexity in a forum WotC will most likely never read?
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
So as to not derail this thread: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/157414-fify-wotc-the-eldritch-knight).
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That's really interesting stuff - I think in terms of reliability it's important to remember that the EK does always have the fallback of extra attack if they think it's going to be more efficient. Thanks for finding that!
Chilling kinda vibe.
Sure. I do get tired of the disingenuous bad-faith circlejerk at times.
But to whit:
-Making weapons and armor less boring would be an excellent way to not only improve fighter, but to make every class that uses weapons and armor less boring as well. There's a reason so many video games pay so much attention to equippables - the thing in your hands should matter, as does the armor you wear to stay alive. R5e makes them mostly superfluous, one is exactly the same as almost all the others before you get to Magic Swag. That makes it really hard to do things like care about your family's ancestral sword/armor when the apprentice blacksmith's first attempt at a blade and the mastersmith's lifelong work are the exact same weapon and there's nothing the game lets you do to differentiate between a village clod's first crude mace and a royal armory longsword.
-More impactful choices during chargen and level-up would be excellent. Fighting styles that aren't named Archery barely matter, and beyond that the fighter gets zero choices to make as it progresses beyond the subclass section Wizards didn't even want to give it. Feats are well and good, but most of them are jank and weird and don't really help the fighter feel like a Master of Combat. The average fighter is almost always better off just cranking numbers, and cranking numbers is never not the most boring option one can select. Easy yes, but it effectively changes nothing about your character. It's a nonupdate, and I always kinda sigh when I have to take one.
-Interesting abilities the fighter can employ as part of its base chassis would make it feel more aggressive and powerful. Yes, Action Surge is a thing, but it's ONE ability you get ONCE. However impactful it is, there's a limit to how far it can go. I understand that the devs have to step lightly with Special Abilities and Features because SFC, but even just making the fighters existing abilities suck less would be a start. There's no reason Second Wind can't be Prof uses per LR instead of once per
day"short rest", as one example. I know fighters are supposed to be The Short Rest class, but that idea has largely failed. Working off the idea that SR abilities are a curiosity rather than an advantage seems like a better way to go about it to me.Please do not contact or message me.
Thanks, this is a lot of actionable stuff to work with. And I agree, fighting styles and warrior feats often just equate to bigger numbers/removing penalties. They don't usually give you very different ways to play actually. Short rest mechanics are another issue. They work fine at my table, but I do understand how inconvenient they are at others. I wish WotC would make them easier to use for every campaign style (since they don't appear to be going away.)
But... why not just disengage?
Technically it still allowed me to attack with War Magic, whereas disengaging doesn't, but tbh I did it because it was cool. She was a gladiator, her whole thing was being flashy.
Wouldn't her own illusion block line of sight for her as well?
So to discuss more along the lines of what I think we will realistically see with the fighter. I think level 1-5 will go unchanged, level 6 will get the feat AND the martial archetype feature, level 7 will probably have some new feature or they will move indomitable down to level 7 and give a new feature at 9. Level 10-13 will go unchanged with level 14 being the FINAL martial archetype feature unlike now where fighters get 5 such features, level 15 will be indomitable 3 or action surge 2, level 17 will be one of the 2 that you didn't get at 15 and level 18 will be 4 attacks.
The question is what will be the 1 extra feature we get to see on the fighter at level 7 or 9? A second fighting style feat or something else? Battle master maneuvers? easier crit chance? Something completely new? this will be interesting to see.
Something tells me warrior classes UA will come out last, because those classes are in need of biggest reworks.
Agree, IMO there are two ways that EK could be made amazing (1) letting them pick from all wizard spells - why not have a criminal-themed EK that specializes in Enchantment and Illusion? or (2) giving them fewer spell slots but faster spell slot scaling - closer to Warlock Pact Magic. To make it viable for them to use blast spells.
Yes, but I was playing with the Blind Fighting style, so my EK could see through it. Most of her spells where illusion (my DM let me pick the two schools of magic, so I picked Abjuration and Illusion, instead of Abjuration and Evocation). Very flavourful character.
Lmao oh yeah, I never realised that. It seems I took the Blind Fighting style to get around something I didn't need to worry about :p
I love Bladesingers, but Eldritch Knight has its own niche. Assuming heavy weapons and armor - compared to a bladesinger you will do slightly more melee damage and have a better base AC out of bladesong and a close AC in bladesong without using a bonus action or limits on uses. Also the value of Action Surge can not be understated in this discussion. A Bladesinger optimized for melee in particular is going to need a round to get a defensive spell up (Blur, PEG or Haste typically) and they are not going to last very long in melee if they don't. If you are getting short rests this is a lot of combats you will essentially be a round ahead of a bladesinger in melee. A EK is a better melee combatant than a Hexblade in every way IMO.
Bladesingers and Hexblades also have extremely limited weapon selections. A Bladesinger is locked into using daggers or a single martial weapon that she gets proficiency in. A Baldesinger that takes proficiency in a Rapier is screwed if she does not find a magic Rapier or Dagger. I guess she could find gauntlets of Ogre power and make due with a staff as well but in most games you are probably going to need to take the weapon master feat to get proficiency in the magic finesse weapons you have if you want to stay viable in melee at high levels. Hexblades can change up their weapon types but it is only the pact weapon that they get extra attack with. Disarm a Hexblade in melee and he is screwed and either needs to take an action making another pact weapon or he is down to one attack a round. At high levels this is a significant liability to these classes being primarily melee combatants.
Those classes are more powerful because of access to higher level spells, and they have options besides melee, but I don't think that is a hit on an EK, the EK still has its place.
I think this is going to be hard to do that with minor illusion unless you are a small race. Minor illusion is only a 5 foot cube.
The Bladesinger Extra attack is flat superior to War Magic in melee but at high levels it will fall behind the EK in play because the EK has the option of using extra attack to get 3 attacks or using war magic to get one and a cantrip.
To be honest, I've joined in on these conversations for a number of reasons. For one, hearing other peoples perspectives and making homebrew to allow them to play what they want makes me feel useful. For two, I like seeing other peoples homebrew ideas and giving feedback on them. And for three, I feel like there are a lot of players who like simplicity and I want their perspective to be heard.
Thanks for the apology on how you worded that though. It does mean a lot:) And I'm sorry if my feedback sounds dismissive, I am genuinely trying to say what I think about each idea so that that idea can reach its full potential. Also, making a subclass isn't as easy as I thought it was lol.
I really like this idea:) To be honest, one well-used maneuver is a lot better than one extra Superiority damage die, so I like that those numbers are now independent from each other. As the levels increase, the amount of Superiority and extra damage dice will both need to drastically increase too. This would mean massive changes to the base Fighter class, and I'd be fine with that, but I'm just saying that these changes might be really hard to do right.
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HERE.Funny that you mention video games here. Because every one that I've played is exactly like 5e: the baseline non-magical weapons all do pretty much the same thing: light attack, heavy attack, block. Only magical weapons do anything beyond that, and honestly... the vast majority of those simply do extra damage of one type or another which is very similar to 5e magic weapons. And in both 5e and videogames players generally end up picking just the weapon that does the most damage and using that over and over. There's no strategy or decisions here, and almost never anything actually different under the hood - just different animation sets plopped on top of the same underlying mechanics.
And didn't you complain about not wanting to have a whole backpack of different weapons for different situations? So it sounds to me that you don't actually want to have to choose the right weapon for the task, you just want weapons to be flat more powerful than they are now. Plus making Fighting Styles more impactful pidgeon-hole fighters into the same constraints as Hexblades and Bladesingers where they have their one weapon they are good at using that that's it. They comparatively are useless with anything else which is actually decreasing their options in combat.
Though I wonder what you would think of more expansive weapon-focus feats instead:
Ax Mastery
Axes include Handaxes, Sickles, Battleaxes, Greataxes. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI. Increase your Strength by +1
Ax Thrower. You can draw and throw an ax as part of the same attack. If you have a free hand you can make one thrown attack with an ax as a bonus action, you do not add your ability modifier to the damage of this attack.
Cleave. When you hit a target with a melee attack with an ax, you can immediately use your reaction to make one additional attack against a different creature that is also within your reach.
Sword Mastery
Swords include Daggers, Shortswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, Longswords, and Greatswords. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI. Increase your Strength or Dexterity by +1.
Parry. While wielding a sword, when you are hit by a weapon attack you can use your reaction to give yourself a bonus to your AC equal to your proficiency bonus against that attack potentially causing it to miss.
Repost. While wielding a sword, when a creature within 5ft of you misses you with an attack you can use your reaction to make one melee attack against the attacker.
Versatile Mastery
You have trained extensively with versatile weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI Increase your Strength by +1
Defensive Stance. While holding a versatile weapon in two hands, you gain a +1 bonus to your damage rolls with that weapon and your AC.
Dual Wielding. While holding a versatile weapon in one hand you can use your bonus action to draw and attack with a melee weapon that has the Light property using your other hand.
Club Mastery
Clubs include the club, greatclub, mace, light hammer, maul, morningstar, warpick and warhammer. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI Increase your Strength by +1
Stun. When you hit a creature with an attack with a club, you can forgo dealing damage to force the target to make a Constitution saving throw (DC = 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus) on a failure the target is stunned until the start of their next turn.
Shield Breaker. When you hit a target with a club, you can forgo dealing damage to destroy one shield that the target is using.
Whip Mastery
Whips include slings, whips, flails, and nets. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits.
ASI Increase your Strength or Dexterity by +1
Melee Versatility. You can use the normal ranged attack of a whip to also make melee attacks with that weapon rather than making an improvised attack.
Long Reach. Your reach with whips increases by 5 ft.
Arcing Strike. You can use your action to make one melee attack with a whip against each creature within 10 ft of you.
Bow Mastery (replaces Sharpshooter)
Bows include longbows, and shortbows. You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits:
ASI Increase your Dexterity by +1
Long Shot. Attacking beyond the normal range of your bow no longer imposes disadvantage on the attack roll.
Power Shot. When attacking within the normal range of your bow you add your Strength modifier (minimum 0) to the damage roll in addition to your Dexterity modifier.
Pinning Shot. When you hit a creature that is adjacent to a surface with an attack that deals piercing damage, you can forgo dealing damage and instead pin them to that surface, reducing their movement speeds to 0 until they or another creature use an action to free them.
Crossbow Mastery (replaces Crossbow Expert)
Crossbows include light, heavy, and hand crossbows.You have trained extensively with these weapons. Granting you the following benefits:
ASI. Increase your Dexterity by +1.
Point Blank. Attacking a creature within 5ft of you does not have disadvantage.
Over-winch You add your proficiency bonus to the damage roll of the first attack you make with a crossbow on your turn. You can use a bonus action to activate this effect on the next attack you make.
Quick-winch You ignore the loading properties of crossbows.