This won't cover all possible options, but please pick the one that most closely matches your thoughts and leave any additional thoughts and info in the comments please. I am mostly interested in the thoughts of those that voted "No" in the "Do you want to play and Ardling" poll, but the more people that vote the better.
Just to make my intent for each option more clear.
"More Animal Beast Themed Abilities" would be move away from Celestial to be more Beast.
"More Celestial Abilities" would be move away from Beast to be more Celestial
"A better balance between the two" would be a better mix of the two themes
"Nothing would fix it for me" would just mean that you are just not interested in Ardling at all.
I would prefer them use both versions of the Ardling with some changes to each. So they can have one real Ardling with more flexible appearance (while still being related to the creatures of the Outer Planes) using the first one. And they can make a flexible Beastfolk our of the second version. But I've said that enough already haha.
If they only keep one, then I would like the versions to be combined. I think the second Ardling is good but needs more Celestial powers. It's not mechanically so strong that they couldn't add a few more perks. I think they should just take some spells from the first version and make it one progression. I would go with -
Level 1 - a Divine cantrip you can change out daily
Level 3 - Divine Favor
Level 5 - Animal Messenger
Those seem to fit the theme best, and would make them more unique than just healing spells.
Edit: does this count as a better balance, or more Celestial abilities?
I would prefer them use both versions of the Ardling with some changes to each. So they can have one real Ardling with more flexible appearance (while still being related to the creatures of the Outer Planes) using the first one. And they can make a flexible Beastfolk our of the second version. But I've said that enough already haha.
If they only keep one, then I would like the versions to be combined. I think the second Ardling is good but needs more Celestial powers. It's not mechanically so strong that they couldn't add a few more perks. I think they should just take some spells from the first version and make it one progression. I would go with -
Level 1 - a Divine cantrip you can change out daily
Level 3 - Divine Favor
Level 5 - Animal Messenger
Those seem to fit the theme best, and would make them more unique than just healing spells.
Edit: does this count as a better balance, or more Celestial abilities?
I think this would go toward better balance as it seems that you want to keep the Beast abilities from the current UA, but add more Celestial to balance it out.
I edited my first post to try to make the options more clear.
Lets look where the Ardling fits in the cosmology. looking at their description in the first package to me they felt like people influences by Guardinals a type of celestials with animal traits.
In older editions the 3 main groups of celestials where Angels Archons and Guardinals Just like Demons devils and Yugoloths where the 3 main kind of fiends. When you look at the first package released (Character Origins) you can see that for the Tiefling they have 3 sub species reflecting the 3 main kind of fiends.
Maybe we should do the same for the Aassimar, though the main race might not be called Aasimar as the Aasimar as we know it seems very tightly bound to Angel celestials. You could have a race of celesial touched creatures with 3 subspecies. The Aasimar associated with Angel celestials. The Ardling associated with Guardinal celestials. And a new 3rd one to be associated with Archon celestials.
Lets look where the Ardling fits in the cosmology. looking at their description in the first package to me they felt like people influences by Guardinals a type of celestials with animal traits.
In older editions the 3 main groups of celestials where Angels Archons and Guardinals Just like Demons devils and Yugoloths where the 3 main kind of fiends. When you look at the first package released (Character Origins) you can see that for the Tiefling they have 3 sub species reflecting the 3 main kind of fiends.
Maybe we should do the same for the Aassimar, though the main race might not be called Aasimar as the Aasimar as we know it seems very tightly bound to Angel celestials. You could have a race of celesial touched creatures with 3 subspecies. The Aasimar associated with Angel celestials. The Ardling associated with Guardinal celestials. And a new 3rd one to be associated with Archon celestials.
That honestly makes the most sense, so I'm not sure why they seem to want to avoid it. Oher than the fact they boxed themselves in a little with Aasimar. But if Tieflings can be expanded I don't know why they can't.
Lets look where the Ardling fits in the cosmology. looking at their description in the first package to me they felt like people influences by Guardinals a type of celestials with animal traits.
In older editions the 3 main groups of celestials where Angels Archons and Guardinals Just like Demons devils and Yugoloths where the 3 main kind of fiends. When you look at the first package released (Character Origins) you can see that for the Tiefling they have 3 sub species reflecting the 3 main kind of fiends.
Maybe we should do the same for the Aassimar, though the main race might not be called Aasimar as the Aasimar as we know it seems very tightly bound to Angel celestials. You could have a race of celesial touched creatures with 3 subspecies. The Aasimar associated with Angel celestials. The Ardling associated with Guardinal celestials. And a new 3rd one to be associated with Archon celestials.
This is more along the lines of what I want as well. I like the Ardling conceptually on its own, but do not want it to be the main celestial species for PCs to mirror against Tieflings because they are inherently tied to their beast-like components, which isnt everyone's cup of tea for playing a quasi angelic character. Like Tieflings, id like it if the main celestial-drawn species of the PHB would have a few different options which are representative of upper plane influence: Ardling for the Beastlands, Aasimar if you wanna double down on celestial flavor for something like Elysium, and a third option (I am not overly familiar with Archons).
Basically, I want the PHB celestial species to have a strong celestial chasis and then use Ardling as a "subspecies" that gives one or two beast traits if you choose it, where the overall package is still more strongly divine mechanically
Lets look where the Ardling fits in the cosmology. looking at their description in the first package to me they felt like people influences by Guardinals a type of celestials with animal traits.
In older editions the 3 main groups of celestials where Angels Archons and Guardinals Just like Demons devils and Yugoloths where the 3 main kind of fiends. When you look at the first package released (Character Origins) you can see that for the Tiefling they have 3 sub species reflecting the 3 main kind of fiends.
Maybe we should do the same for the Aassimar, though the main race might not be called Aasimar as the Aasimar as we know it seems very tightly bound to Angel celestials. You could have a race of celesial touched creatures with 3 subspecies. The Aasimar associated with Angel celestials. The Ardling associated with Guardinal celestials. And a new 3rd one to be associated with Archon celestials.
That honestly makes the most sense, so I'm not sure why they seem to want to avoid it. Oher than the fact they boxed themselves in a little with Aasimar. But if Tieflings can be expanded I don't know why they can't.
I agree, but I am sure there are plenty of people that would lament the loss of Fallen Aasimar as an option.
I feel option 2 and 3 on this are kind of the same. More celetial abilities would bring a better balance between the two, assuming we keep it with the current UA.
That is why I edited the first post to try to be more clear.
Think Celestial with a small amount of beast (or no beast at all could be a possibility) VS a better balance of both options
I would prefer them use both versions of the Ardling with some changes to each. So they can have one real Ardling with more flexible appearance (while still being related to the creatures of the Outer Planes) using the first one. And they can make a flexible Beastfolk our of the second version. But I've said that enough already haha.
If they only keep one, then I would like the versions to be combined. I think the second Ardling is good but needs more Celestial powers. It's not mechanically so strong that they couldn't add a few more perks. I think they should just take some spells from the first version and make it one progression. I would go with -
Level 1 - a Divine cantrip you can change out daily
Level 3 - Divine Favor
Level 5 - Animal Messenger
Those seem to fit the theme best, and would make them more unique than just healing spells.
Edit: does this count as a better balance, or more Celestial abilities?
Personally I would love the healing thing to still be in there, to really let the celestial part shine through. I would also want the first level spell to be something that is useful to all classes and doesn't lean towards warriors. So for level 3 the options I like are: Guiding bolt, Cure wounds, Detect Evil and good (My favorite of this bunch), Heroism (which I think fits the beastlands lore a little since it is also known as the "happy hunting grounds" a kind of Valhalla for hunters and animals), Protection from good and evil.
For level 5: MY favorite is the new Prayer of healing, but find traps is also interesting, Warding Bond might be cool, of course lesser restoration and Protection from poison are standard options from the divine list.
Edit: (This thread so far leaves me more hopeful thus far).
If they moved away from the “generic beast” motif they got going on and leaned more into the celestial side I would like it better. Basically the opposite of the way they’re going with them. But that’s me.
I think it would be nice to have a catch-all flexible beastfolk species. There's already aasimar as a celestial kin. It would be nice to have a compromise for beast lovers that could encompass every animal out there. Foxes, walruses, bats, whatever.
It really seems like there is a pretty even split between people who are calling for a "catch-all flexible beastfolk species" (while not reducing or ignoring more specific beastfolk like 5e already has through supplements) and a catch-all, flexible non-angelic celestial species (while retaining Aasimar for the more Euro-centric version). It would nice to see all of these eventually. From my perspective, it may just be a question of what will actually fit in the new Players Handbook without making it unwieldy.
I think the issue we will run into is that there are not enough of any one group to reach the percentage threshold to make it any further than it has. Of course the 40k people that vote don't read these forums so who knows.
While I could take an easy answer and say balance between celestial/beast the real answer isn't really caught in this poll to me. The real answer is lore, and that lore isn't just a few paragraphs of fluff text at the top of the species' section but things like having a campaign that involves them, compare this to say Tieflings and how they suffer from the events of fall of Elturel, effectively being banished from the city due to it's temporary displacement into Avernus. That is to say the kind of lore that gets built up from Aardling characters and groups as they interact with from official campaigns. As a species I think Aardling are a great concept, it just needs more Lore for myself to understand how perhaps an Aardling would actually interact with other races in Toril and how do the people of Toril view Aardlings?
Yeah these results are pretty interesting. I assume that any new species would have some percentage of people who just aren't interested at all. That feels pretty normal. We all have our favorite species, and ones that will never really speak to us.
So that leaves a split between a more Celestial Ardling, a more beastial one, and one with both represented more equally.
I wonder if two new species would really be the answer. Do people want a beast themed Ardling because they think the Ardling specifically should be more beastial? Or do they really just want a flexible beastfolk option? And don't care if it's from the outer planes or not. Do people who want a more Celestial Ardling really want a species from the outer planes that fits this theme? Or do they really just want a Celestial option of any sort? I think I'll make a new poll to see what else we can learn here. At least from our very small sample size.
Yeah these results are pretty interesting. I assume that any new species would have some percentage of people who just aren't interested at all. That feels pretty normal. We all have our favorite species, and ones that will never really speak to us.
So that leaves a split between a more Celestial Ardling, a more beastial one, and one with both represented more equally.
I wonder if two new species would really be the answer. Do people want a beast themed Ardling because they think the Ardling specifically should be more beastial? Or do they really just want a flexible beastfolk option? And don't care if it's from the outer planes or not. Do people who want a more Celestial Ardling really want a species from the outer planes that fits this theme? Or do they really just want a Celestial option of any sort? I think I'll make a new poll to see what else we can learn here. At least from our very small sample size.
This won't cover all possible options, but please pick the one that most closely matches your thoughts and leave any additional thoughts and info in the comments please. I am mostly interested in the thoughts of those that voted "No" in the "Do you want to play and Ardling" poll, but the more people that vote the better.
Just to make my intent for each option more clear.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I would prefer them use both versions of the Ardling with some changes to each. So they can have one real Ardling with more flexible appearance (while still being related to the creatures of the Outer Planes) using the first one. And they can make a flexible Beastfolk our of the second version. But I've said that enough already haha.
If they only keep one, then I would like the versions to be combined. I think the second Ardling is good but needs more Celestial powers. It's not mechanically so strong that they couldn't add a few more perks. I think they should just take some spells from the first version and make it one progression. I would go with -
Level 1 - a Divine cantrip you can change out daily
Level 3 - Divine Favor
Level 5 - Animal Messenger
Those seem to fit the theme best, and would make them more unique than just healing spells.
Edit: does this count as a better balance, or more Celestial abilities?
I think this would go toward better balance as it seems that you want to keep the Beast abilities from the current UA, but add more Celestial to balance it out.
I edited my first post to try to make the options more clear.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Great thanks! Fixed my vote.
I might go for a more extreme fix.
Lets look where the Ardling fits in the cosmology.
looking at their description in the first package to me they felt like people influences by Guardinals a type of celestials with animal traits.
In older editions the 3 main groups of celestials where Angels Archons and Guardinals
Just like Demons devils and Yugoloths where the 3 main kind of fiends.
When you look at the first package released (Character Origins) you can see that for the Tiefling they have 3 sub species reflecting the 3 main kind of fiends.
Maybe we should do the same for the Aassimar, though the main race might not be called Aasimar as the Aasimar as we know it seems very tightly bound to Angel celestials.
You could have a race of celesial touched creatures with 3 subspecies.
The Aasimar associated with Angel celestials.
The Ardling associated with Guardinal celestials.
And a new 3rd one to be associated with Archon celestials.
That honestly makes the most sense, so I'm not sure why they seem to want to avoid it. Oher than the fact they boxed themselves in a little with Aasimar. But if Tieflings can be expanded I don't know why they can't.
This is more along the lines of what I want as well. I like the Ardling conceptually on its own, but do not want it to be the main celestial species for PCs to mirror against Tieflings because they are inherently tied to their beast-like components, which isnt everyone's cup of tea for playing a quasi angelic character. Like Tieflings, id like it if the main celestial-drawn species of the PHB would have a few different options which are representative of upper plane influence: Ardling for the Beastlands, Aasimar if you wanna double down on celestial flavor for something like Elysium, and a third option (I am not overly familiar with Archons).
Basically, I want the PHB celestial species to have a strong celestial chasis and then use Ardling as a "subspecies" that gives one or two beast traits if you choose it, where the overall package is still more strongly divine mechanically
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I agree, but I am sure there are plenty of people that would lament the loss of Fallen Aasimar as an option.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Deleted: Read first post after.
That is why I edited the first post to try to be more clear.
Think Celestial with a small amount of beast (or no beast at all could be a possibility) VS a better balance of both options
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Personally I would love the healing thing to still be in there, to really let the celestial part shine through. I would also want the first level spell to be something that is useful to all classes and doesn't lean towards warriors.
So for level 3 the options I like are: Guiding bolt, Cure wounds, Detect Evil and good (My favorite of this bunch), Heroism (which I think fits the beastlands lore a little since it is also known as the "happy hunting grounds" a kind of Valhalla for hunters and animals), Protection from good and evil.
For level 5: MY favorite is the new Prayer of healing, but find traps is also interesting, Warding Bond might be cool, of course lesser restoration and Protection from poison are standard options from the divine list.
Edit: (This thread so far leaves me more hopeful thus far).
Don't fix that which isn't broken. I like the current version of Ardling.
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HERE.If they moved away from the “generic beast” motif they got going on and leaned more into the celestial side I would like it better. Basically the opposite of the way they’re going with them. But that’s me.
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I think it would be nice to have a catch-all flexible beastfolk species. There's already aasimar as a celestial kin. It would be nice to have a compromise for beast lovers that could encompass every animal out there. Foxes, walruses, bats, whatever.
It really seems like there is a pretty even split between people who are calling for a "catch-all flexible beastfolk species" (while not reducing or ignoring more specific beastfolk like 5e already has through supplements) and a catch-all, flexible non-angelic celestial species (while retaining Aasimar for the more Euro-centric version). It would nice to see all of these eventually. From my perspective, it may just be a question of what will actually fit in the new Players Handbook without making it unwieldy.
I think the issue we will run into is that there are not enough of any one group to reach the percentage threshold to make it any further than it has. Of course the 40k people that vote don't read these forums so who knows.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
While I could take an easy answer and say balance between celestial/beast the real answer isn't really caught in this poll to me. The real answer is lore, and that lore isn't just a few paragraphs of fluff text at the top of the species' section but things like having a campaign that involves them, compare this to say Tieflings and how they suffer from the events of fall of Elturel, effectively being banished from the city due to it's temporary displacement into Avernus. That is to say the kind of lore that gets built up from Aardling characters and groups as they interact with from official campaigns. As a species I think Aardling are a great concept, it just needs more Lore for myself to understand how perhaps an Aardling would actually interact with other races in Toril and how do the people of Toril view Aardlings?
Yeah these results are pretty interesting. I assume that any new species would have some percentage of people who just aren't interested at all. That feels pretty normal. We all have our favorite species, and ones that will never really speak to us.
So that leaves a split between a more Celestial Ardling, a more beastial one, and one with both represented more equally.
I wonder if two new species would really be the answer. Do people want a beast themed Ardling because they think the Ardling specifically should be more beastial? Or do they really just want a flexible beastfolk option? And don't care if it's from the outer planes or not. Do people who want a more Celestial Ardling really want a species from the outer planes that fits this theme? Or do they really just want a Celestial option of any sort? I think I'll make a new poll to see what else we can learn here. At least from our very small sample size.
Looking forward to the poll.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/unearthed-arcana/158729-why-do-you-want-a-more-celestial-or-more-bestial
It's not perfect, but hopefully we can keep working on this, because I'd really like to find something that makes the most people happy.