It doesnt have to be fully fledged, but it does have to have a patron. its one of the few classes that will really feel wrong to me without a patron from level 1, perhaps only
I kinda feel that way about Clerics.
yeah, I agree with you there to an extent. They need a god, but not necessarily their subclass. I feel the patron is as important to a warlock as the god is to the priest.
A warlock picking up knowledge without a patron, imo, is just a wizard.
Well think about it. In the lore they spend time delving for secret arcane knowledge before making a pact, so why not make that 1st & 2nd level?
It just feels icky. First of all, a lot of people like to play Warlocks who stumble into their pacts, one way or another. Often, how they found their patron is an essential part of their backstories. In fact, I've never really seen (or so much as heard about) a Warlock character that actually is a "seeker of arcane lore." I guess these people would be better of starting at level 3, but that's not always what the DM wants to do.
Second of all, how? You get spells from knowing some arcane knowledge, but you aren't a Wizard? Why is this path to spellcasting unable to continue past 2nd level without outside help? Why is a patron always found at level 3? How much does the patron even give you if you can simply cast spells without them? I'm just not on board with the idea of a Warlock without a pact. I'm much more interested in the "baby pacts" idea they've apparently been floating around.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being.
Seems definitive to me.
Nothing says that the being needs to fully reveal itself and grant the warlock distinct powers at level 1. You can have a pact without knowing who it is actually with or what it will grant you yet. It just shifts from 'I have a pact with an otherworldly being but I don't know their true nature yet' to 'I have a pact with this specific otherworldly being'
I get why they're backing away from 1st level subclasses to avoid frontloading too much for dips, but it still just makes no sense for classes where your subclass pick is so intrinsic to the character's origin/identity to not actually make the choice until level 3. Granted, the way I usually hear it you don't get many campaigns starting at levels 1 or 2, so perhaps it won't actually mean that much in practice. Still worried what the "Mages" are going to look like if everyone is using a single spell list and Wizards and Sorcs get the exact same number of spells they prepare in the exact same way.
Well, we have already seen that the spell lists aren't used the exact same way by every class. For example the Bard can only prepare spells from the transmutation, divination, illusion and enchantment schools from Arcane. Rangers do all EXCEPT evocation from primal. It would not be crazy to think Wizards will get the whole Arcane list but Sorcs will be limited in some way, and I am almost counting on Warlocks being priced out of evocation, I would be even less surprised if they are heavy limited to basically have the same list as bards except trading illusion for necromancy with "baby pacts" granting other schools or something. Either way I am sure Sorcs and wizards will prepare the same number of spells from the arcane list, but maybe sorcs may not have access to the whole list. And warlocks are going to be VERY different in their preps.
Honestly, the truncated super lists are another massive point against the new system for me. They’ve murdered the bard’s casting identity from “versatile jack of all trades caster” to “community college Wizard”.
Regarding the point about spontaneous casting on the Arcane side, people forget that those were also the classes that have a lot more active features compared to Wizards. It was a trade-off; your spells are more locked down, but you have stronger alternative options. This new approach is a very frustrating reduction to the lowest common denominator.
A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being.
Seems definitive to me.
Nothing says that the being needs to fully reveal itself and grant the warlock distinct powers at level 1. You can have a pact without knowing who it is actually with or what it will grant you yet. It just shifts from 'I have a pact with an otherworldly being but I don't know their true nature yet' to 'I have a pact with this specific otherworldly being'
The who knows who I made a pact with route to me is far worse than seekers of arcane knowledge who have yet to make a pact. But I have a similar opinion on clerics and sorcerers.
It doesnt have to be fully fledged, but it does have to have a patron. its one of the few classes that will really feel wrong to me without a patron from level 1, perhaps only
I kinda feel that way about Clerics.
yeah, I agree with you there to an extent. They need a god, but not necessarily their subclass. I feel the patron is as important to a warlock as the god is to the priest.
A warlock picking up knowledge without a patron, imo, is just a wizard.
Well think about it. In the lore they spend time delving for secret arcane knowledge before making a pact, so why not make that 1st & 2nd level?
It just feels icky. First of all, a lot of people like to play Warlocks who stumble into their pacts, one way or another. Often, how they found their patron is an essential part of their backstories. In fact, I've never really seen (or so much as heard about) a Warlock character that actually is a "seeker of arcane lore." I guess these people would be better of starting at level 3, but that's not always what the DM wants to do.
Second of all, how? You get spells from knowing some arcane knowledge, but you aren't a Wizard? Why is this path to spellcasting unable to continue past 2nd level without outside help? Why is a patron always found at level 3? How much does the patron even give you if you can simply cast spells without them? I'm just not on board with the idea of a Warlock without a pact. I'm much more interested in the "baby pacts" idea they've apparently been floating around.
I almost always see seekers of arcane lore warlocks, I consider the stumble into it back grounds as the odd ball ones. They can fit for Genie, fey etc. but i don't think its the norm. And not all arcane lore has to be the same, they aren't wizards because they are looking into forbidden magics beyond the realms of man not the crap the hedge wizard on the corner spins.
Well, possibly in levels 1-2 of the sorcerer, in all that research into the forbidden knowledge and the "Baby Pact" it could actually be the preparation of the level 3 pact, in the way that you already make a pact with that same entity in level 1 (or one of his subordinates, like another of his higher level warlocks), only it doesn't indicate who he is and gives you minor powers, just to test you (Both in skills and to see if you could really be useful to his time tempting you, with a free trial and without obvious conditions, to make it easier for you to accept its conditions in the event that it sees a potential utility for you) before making the real contract.
I get why they're backing away from 1st level subclasses to avoid frontloading too much for dips, but it still just makes no sense for classes where your subclass pick is so intrinsic to the character's origin/identity to not actually make the choice until level 3. Granted, the way I usually hear it you don't get many campaigns starting at levels 1 or 2, so perhaps it won't actually mean that much in practice. Still worried what the "Mages" are going to look like if everyone is using a single spell list and Wizards and Sorcs get the exact same number of spells they prepare in the exact same way.
Well, we have already seen that the spell lists aren't used the exact same way by every class. For example the Bard can only prepare spells from the transmutation, divination, illusion and enchantment schools from Arcane. Rangers do all EXCEPT evocation from primal. It would not be crazy to think Wizards will get the whole Arcane list but Sorcs will be limited in some way, and I am almost counting on Warlocks being priced out of evocation, I would be even less surprised if they are heavy limited to basically have the same list as bards except trading illusion for necromancy with "baby pacts" granting other schools or something. Either way I am sure Sorcs and wizards will prepare the same number of spells from the arcane list, but maybe sorcs may not have access to the whole list. And warlocks are going to be VERY different in their preps.
Honestly, the truncated super lists are another massive point against the new system for me. They’ve murdered the bard’s casting identity from “versatile jack of all trades caster” to “community college Wizard”.
Regarding the point about spontaneous casting on the Arcane side, people forget that those were also the classes that have a lot more active features compared to Wizards. It was a trade-off; your spells are more locked down, but you have stronger alternative options. This new approach is a very frustrating reduction to the lowest common denominator.
Who knows. Maybe some of the Order of Scribes features will become base wizard features because of this change. So maybe they still use the spellbook to prepare spells (all spells scribed in it for their level) and can swap damage types like OoS wizard. And ritual cast without preparation like all the other spellcasters.
Regarding the point about spontaneous casting on the Arcane side, people forget that those were also the classes that have a lot more active features compared to Wizards. It was a trade-off; your spells are more locked down, but you have stronger alternative options. This new approach is a very frustrating reduction to the lowest common denominator.
As a DM, it would really be easier on me if no classes prepared spells, because it would mean I'd have a much better idea of what the players might pull out of a hat today. I think the problem they were running into is that they don't have a simple way of balancing power vs flexibility, so wizard vs sorcerer wound up as trading a small amount of power (a sorcerer does generally manage to do more damage than a wizard) for a quite large amount of flexibility.
I don't think you are going to need to worry about the spell book thing. We will see, but I have been getting the vibe that the spell book will be a different mechanic and the wizard will be able to prep from the whole list and the book will just be for rituals or a flavor thing.
That's entirely possible, though I'm hoping there's a bit more to it than simply a ritual repository (i.e. functionally just bonus preparations.)
That sounds terrible to me. The only people who should have access to the entire list are those who have their powers handed to them from a god or something. The Bard should not know every spell, the sorcerer shouldn't, none of the arcane casters should. It is such terrible world building in the search of unifying everything.
They should have instead expanded the spell book concept to the other arcane casters with maybe the sorcerer as the lone exception and still using a known spell system but with enough known it was not nearly as punishing.
I don't actually think their plan is for every type of caster to know their entire list. The core lists will be available to everyone, and then they can easily add to those lists in the future by saying "ARCANE". But some spells will be separate from the framework entirely, like what they're planning to do with Find Steed being Paladin exclusive.
The goal is to make it easier to make new caster classes and subclasses without them being stuck with only core to draw from. If they say Artificers are Arcane casters for example, then they don't have to stick an exhaustive list in Tasha's alongside them anymore, and then tag every new spell in Fizban's, Strixhaven etc with "Artificer!" and then have a future class be screwed.
I don't think you are going to need to worry about the spell book thing. We will see, but I have been getting the vibe that the spell book will be a different mechanic and the wizard will be able to prep from the whole list and the book will just be for rituals or a flavor thing.
That's entirely possible, though I'm hoping there's a bit more to it than simply a ritual repository (i.e. functionally just bonus preparations.)
That sounds terrible to me. The only people who should have access to the entire list are those who have their powers handed to them from a god or something. The Bard should not know every spell, the sorcerer shouldn't, none of the arcane casters should. It is such terrible world building in the search of unifying everything.
They should have instead expanded the spell book concept to the other arcane casters with maybe the sorcerer as the lone exception and still using a known spell system but with enough known it was not nearly as punishing.
I don't actually think their plan is for every type of caster to know their entire list. The core lists will be available to everyone, and then they can easily add to those lists in the future by saying "ARCANE". But some spells will be separate from the framework entirely, like what they're planning to do with Find Steed being Paladin exclusive.
The goal is to make it easier to make new caster classes and subclasses without them being stuck with only core to draw from. If they say Artificers are Arcane casters for example, then they don't have to stick an exhaustive list in Tasha's alongside them anymore, and then tag every new spell in Fizban's, Strixhaven etc with "Artificer!" and then have a future class be screwed.
I guess we will see in 2-3 weeks but the only arcane caster example we have knows all their spells, so if Tashas 2 Electric boogaloo comes out they instantly know all the enchantment spells in it assuming the DM uses that book. Their isn't even a learn it mechanic for Bards for it to work in another way. And it would seem weird to have the bard know all spells from 4 schools while the wizard is learning 2 spells total a level or whatever. And even if they change course for the last 3, the bard still is not designed right in that regard.
Put them all on a spell book mechanic. Call it something different for the class like the bard have it be their score sheets, wizards spell books, warlocks tomes, sorcerer maybe their scribe spell knowledge onto their souls. But that is what differentiates the arcane from the divine, theirs is learned/trained not just poofed into their head by a benevolent god. Even warlocks gain their knowledge through learning. They should not just know every spell they have access to. Heck if they are worried about new players making bad choices, be generous with how many they learn per level and how easy/costly it is to add more.
Like sure its a game and they want to make that side of it works. But they shouldn't just totally divorce their mechanics from the lore they created as the role playing part matters as well. IMO with RPGs the lore/setting should be reflected in the rules and the rules should reinforce the setting/lore as much as possible while still being a functional game. This they know all spells they have access to whether its just the bard or all arcane casters doesn't do that in the slightest. And sure they can change the lore and settings on how magic works but there comes a point where you are no longer D&D and I'd be better off just playing Fantasy Hero.
A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being.
Seems definitive to me.
Nothing says that the being needs to fully reveal itself and grant the warlock distinct powers at level 1. You can have a pact without knowing who it is actually with or what it will grant you yet. It just shifts from 'I have a pact with an otherworldly being but I don't know their true nature yet' to 'I have a pact with this specific otherworldly being'
The who knows who I made a pact with route to me is far worse than seekers of arcane knowledge who have yet to make a pact. But I have a similar opinion on clerics and sorcerers.
seems likely they'll opt to leave levels 0-3 open to player. it'll save them from having to spell out the recommended mechanisms for "starting with a deal, luring in or being lured by your patron in-game, and please check box for color of pew-pew before proceeding" stereotypes for each subclass separately. there'll be a blurb about "how in control and in-the-know the character is regarding their patron before level 3 pact details is best left as an open ended collaboration between player and dm." ...unless they've taken a different stance about writing lore/fluff and padding pages. a few of the books lately have been a bit thin.
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They could accomplish their goal (limiting dips) by just saying "You pick at level 1 but don't gain any features until level 3", but I think that would be annoying.
Of course, there's always the idea that the Patron will no longer be the Subclass. That choosing the Patron still happens at level 1, but the *subclass* choice at lvl 3 will be the Pact selection (Pact of the Chain, Pact of the Blade, etc.), just like it is currently. My thinking is that you can move some of the stuff from the Patron to the Pact, so for example, some of the Hexblade stuff gets moved into Pact of the Blade. Basically, making the official forming of the Pact more important. Since that already happens at lvl 3 in 5e, it's not as jarring as choosing the Patron late.
I guess my view is that without a patron, there is no pact, and without a pact it's not a warlock. And the pact is an agreement between two parties. Without the second party, it's simply not a warlock.
my expectation is that the patron flavor will come with their "baby pact", but the meat and potatoes will start to come online at level 3 when you start getting your pact boons. I think invocations will slide to 3 as well, so no more 2 levels of warlock for eldritch blast spam shennanigans. If EB is a class feature that scales on warlock level that single EB bolt isn't going to be nearly as impressive as it can be now scaling on character level, which means less hex pops. I think that change alone will solve /most/ power game moves centered on warlock, and I am nearly certain they will do that.
I think warlock 1 will remain basically what it is now, with eldritch blast becoming a class feature that scales on your warlock level rather than a cantrip scaling on your class level. I'm torn on whether I think the features like healing light for celestial or dark one's blessing make it as part of the baby pact, but I think they will be. I don't think EB stands up on it's own as a feature definitive enough. Without /something/ a warlock 1/2 would just be a weak rogue or ranger. Expanded spells, probably come online at level 3 along with invocations. That will make me sad for celestial (I loved healing with my celestial lock at low levels), but it is what it is.
The true hope that I have here is that hexblade completely goes away and most of those features are rolled into blade pact. Blade pact is an awesome idea but outside some edge builds practically requires hexblade. Being able to do some sort of melee other patron warlock I think would be really spicy and fun.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I guess my view is that without a patron, there is no pact, and without a pact it's not a warlock. And the pact is an agreement between two parties. Without the second party, it's simply not a warlock.
my expectation is that the patron flavor will come with their "baby pact", but the meat and potatoes will start to come online at level 3 when you start getting your pact boons. I think invocations will slide to 3 as well, so no more 2 levels of warlock for eldritch blast spam shennanigans. If EB is a class feature that scales on warlock level that single EB bolt isn't going to be nearly as impressive as it can be now scaling on character level, which means less hex pops. I think that change alone will solve /most/ power game moves centered on warlock, and I am nearly certain they will do that.
I think warlock 1 will remain basically what it is now, with eldritch blast becoming a class feature that scales on your warlock level rather than a cantrip scaling on your class level. I'm torn on whether I think the features like healing light for celestial or dark one's blessing make it as part of the baby pact, but I think they will be. I don't think EB stands up on it's own as a feature definitive enough. Without /something/ a warlock 1/2 would just be a weak rogue or ranger. Expanded spells, probably come online at level 3 along with invocations. That will make me sad for celestial (I loved healing with my celestial lock at low levels), but it is what it is.
The true hope that I have here is that hexblade completely goes away and most of those features are rolled into blade pact. Blade pact is an awesome idea but outside some edge builds practically requires hexblade. Being able to do some sort of melee other patron warlock I think would be really spicy and fun.
They might mirror the ranger a bit more and get Hex concentration free which is a pretty snazzy perk at level 1. Though I did suggest in my play test its too good for level 1 if they are trying to dissuade dips. And I also hope hexblade goes away and is rolled into pact of the blade, it felt like a patch and you sort of felt locked into hex blade if you wanted to actually get value out of pact of the blade unless you were going for some off kilter build.
Edit to add on a related pact note I kind of think the first tier pact feat for the pacts should be rolled it, its kind of what defines the pact and requiring a invocation to get its core identity seems wrong. Pact of the tomes extra cantrips are a small bonus feature on top of why you took it, to get rituals.
I guess my view is that without a patron, there is no pact, and without a pact it's not a warlock. And the pact is an agreement between two parties. Without the second party, it's simply not a warlock.
my expectation is that the patron flavor will come with their "baby pact", but the meat and potatoes will start to come online at level 3 when you start getting your pact boons. I think invocations will slide to 3 as well, so no more 2 levels of warlock for eldritch blast spam shennanigans. If EB is a class feature that scales on warlock level that single EB bolt isn't going to be nearly as impressive as it can be now scaling on character level, which means less hex pops. I think that change alone will solve /most/ power game moves centered on warlock, and I am nearly certain they will do that.
I think warlock 1 will remain basically what it is now, with eldritch blast becoming a class feature that scales on your warlock level rather than a cantrip scaling on your class level. I'm torn on whether I think the features like healing light for celestial or dark one's blessing make it as part of the baby pact, but I think they will be. I don't think EB stands up on it's own as a feature definitive enough. Without /something/ a warlock 1/2 would just be a weak rogue or ranger. Expanded spells, probably come online at level 3 along with invocations. That will make me sad for celestial (I loved healing with my celestial lock at low levels), but it is what it is.
The true hope that I have here is that hexblade completely goes away and most of those features are rolled into blade pact. Blade pact is an awesome idea but outside some edge builds practically requires hexblade. Being able to do some sort of melee other patron warlock I think would be really spicy and fun.
They might mirror the ranger a bit more and get Hex concentration free which is a pretty snazzy perk at level 1. Though I did suggest in my play test its too good for level 1 if they are trying to dissuade dips. And I also hope hexblade goes away and is rolled into pact of the blade, it felt like a patch and you sort of felt locked into hex blade if you wanted to actually get value out of pact of the blade unless you were going for some off kilter build.
Honestly the need to run Hexblade seems overstated imo. It's a little more MAD to run blade with a different patron, but if you're planning to focus on making weapon attacks you won't need as much CHA as opposed to STR or DEX, there's plenty of Warlock spell options that don't use your casting stat (like Hex), and most of the support comes from invocations. The only one of those related to CHA also has a level 12 requirement, which is a bit late in the game for what I always hear is the most common level range. Hexblade allows for a bit more optimization, sure, but it's not hard to put together a fair melee build without it. Plus, you can already get Medium Armor and Shield proficiency at level 1 with your background feat in 1D&D, so I expect fewer gish builds will be handing them out going forward.
I guess my view is that without a patron, there is no pact, and without a pact it's not a warlock. And the pact is an agreement between two parties. Without the second party, it's simply not a warlock.
my expectation is that the patron flavor will come with their "baby pact", but the meat and potatoes will start to come online at level 3 when you start getting your pact boons. I think invocations will slide to 3 as well, so no more 2 levels of warlock for eldritch blast spam shennanigans. If EB is a class feature that scales on warlock level that single EB bolt isn't going to be nearly as impressive as it can be now scaling on character level, which means less hex pops. I think that change alone will solve /most/ power game moves centered on warlock, and I am nearly certain they will do that.
I think warlock 1 will remain basically what it is now, with eldritch blast becoming a class feature that scales on your warlock level rather than a cantrip scaling on your class level. I'm torn on whether I think the features like healing light for celestial or dark one's blessing make it as part of the baby pact, but I think they will be. I don't think EB stands up on it's own as a feature definitive enough. Without /something/ a warlock 1/2 would just be a weak rogue or ranger. Expanded spells, probably come online at level 3 along with invocations. That will make me sad for celestial (I loved healing with my celestial lock at low levels), but it is what it is.
The true hope that I have here is that hexblade completely goes away and most of those features are rolled into blade pact. Blade pact is an awesome idea but outside some edge builds practically requires hexblade. Being able to do some sort of melee other patron warlock I think would be really spicy and fun.
They might mirror the ranger a bit more and get Hex concentration free which is a pretty snazzy perk at level 1. Though I did suggest in my play test its too good for level 1 if they are trying to dissuade dips. And I also hope hexblade goes away and is rolled into pact of the blade, it felt like a patch and you sort of felt locked into hex blade if you wanted to actually get value out of pact of the blade unless you were going for some off kilter build.
Honestly the need to run Hexblade seems overstated imo. It's a little more MAD to run blade with a different patron, but if you're planning to focus on making weapon attacks you won't need as much CHA as opposed to STR or DEX, there's plenty of Warlock spell options that don't use your casting stat (like Hex), and most of the support comes from invocations. The only one of those related to CHA also has a level 12 requirement, which is a bit late in the game for what I always hear is the most common level range. Hexblade allows for a bit more optimization, sure, but it's not hard to put together a fair melee build without it. Plus, you can already get Medium Armor and Shield proficiency at level 1 with your background feat in 1D&D, so I expect fewer gish builds will be handing them out going forward.
This actually goes straight to what I have been saying about 1st level play in 1D&D. Previously level 1 was largely skipped because people couldn't get their character concept at level 1. Now the background feat situation largely solves that.
Want to play a spell sword. Well at level 1 you can either be a caster with the lightly armored feat or you could be a martial with magic initiate feat. The caster route will have 2 cantrips and 2 first level spells at level 1 and the martial route will have 2 cantrips and one first level spell at level 1. As you level the caster will grow until they get their spell sword subclass at 3 and vice versa with the fighter version.
Want the "tactical fighter" at level 1, the alert feat or the lucky or skilled feat could be for you... so on and so forth.
I feel like we are off topic, but Warlocks are not going to get their normal patron features until level 3. Mainly because making the pact boons the important 3rd level feature lowers the amount of subclass possibilities. Sub classes sell books. There are only 4 pact boons and we have had three for the entirety of 5e. I honestly believe it is more likely that the Pact boon will be moved to level 1 or 2. Paladins have always chosen their oaths at 3rd and it felt weird to me, but I expect the same of Warlocks now.
So you end up with:
1. Pact Magic, Pact Boon 2. Invocations 3. Patrons Gift- Basically you choose your patron but it’s assumed this is where your power was always coming from
I expect something similar from the sorcerer
1. Spellcasting, Font of Magic. 2. Metamagic. 3. Sorcerer Manifestation- basically your origin but now at 3rd level
I wonder if they will decouple the patron features (hurl through hell, fey presence etc) from the patron and have them more as invocation options with that patron as a requirement.
Edit: and Blade, Chain, Tome, Talisman which we already choose at 3rd becomes the subclass with patron adding some other benefits like what I mentioned above with something at 1st level besides spell casting to “seal the deal”
It just feels icky. First of all, a lot of people like to play Warlocks who stumble into their pacts, one way or another. Often, how they found their patron is an essential part of their backstories. In fact, I've never really seen (or so much as heard about) a Warlock character that actually is a "seeker of arcane lore." I guess these people would be better of starting at level 3, but that's not always what the DM wants to do.
Second of all, how? You get spells from knowing some arcane knowledge, but you aren't a Wizard? Why is this path to spellcasting unable to continue past 2nd level without outside help? Why is a patron always found at level 3? How much does the patron even give you if you can simply cast spells without them? I'm just not on board with the idea of a Warlock without a pact. I'm much more interested in the "baby pacts" idea they've apparently been floating around.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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You don’t expect that to change in ‘24 to suit whatever the class looks like then?
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Nothing says that the being needs to fully reveal itself and grant the warlock distinct powers at level 1. You can have a pact without knowing who it is actually with or what it will grant you yet. It just shifts from 'I have a pact with an otherworldly being but I don't know their true nature yet' to 'I have a pact with this specific otherworldly being'
Honestly, the truncated super lists are another massive point against the new system for me. They’ve murdered the bard’s casting identity from “versatile jack of all trades caster” to “community college Wizard”.
Regarding the point about spontaneous casting on the Arcane side, people forget that those were also the classes that have a lot more active features compared to Wizards. It was a trade-off; your spells are more locked down, but you have stronger alternative options. This new approach is a very frustrating reduction to the lowest common denominator.
The who knows who I made a pact with route to me is far worse than seekers of arcane knowledge who have yet to make a pact. But I have a similar opinion on clerics and sorcerers.
I almost always see seekers of arcane lore warlocks, I consider the stumble into it back grounds as the odd ball ones. They can fit for Genie, fey etc. but i don't think its the norm. And not all arcane lore has to be the same, they aren't wizards because they are looking into forbidden magics beyond the realms of man not the crap the hedge wizard on the corner spins.
Well, possibly in levels 1-2 of the sorcerer, in all that research into the forbidden knowledge and the "Baby Pact" it could actually be the preparation of the level 3 pact, in the way that you already make a pact with that same entity in level 1 (or one of his subordinates, like another of his higher level warlocks), only it doesn't indicate who he is and gives you minor powers, just to test you (Both in skills and to see if you could really be useful to his time tempting you,
with a free trial and without obvious conditions, to make it easier for you to accept its conditions in the event that it sees a potential utility for you) before making the real contract.Who knows. Maybe some of the Order of Scribes features will become base wizard features because of this change. So maybe they still use the spellbook to prepare spells (all spells scribed in it for their level) and can swap damage types like OoS wizard. And ritual cast without preparation like all the other spellcasters.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
As a DM, it would really be easier on me if no classes prepared spells, because it would mean I'd have a much better idea of what the players might pull out of a hat today. I think the problem they were running into is that they don't have a simple way of balancing power vs flexibility, so wizard vs sorcerer wound up as trading a small amount of power (a sorcerer does generally manage to do more damage than a wizard) for a quite large amount of flexibility.
That's entirely possible, though I'm hoping there's a bit more to it than simply a ritual repository (i.e. functionally just bonus preparations.)
I don't actually think their plan is for every type of caster to know their entire list. The core lists will be available to everyone, and then they can easily add to those lists in the future by saying "ARCANE". But some spells will be separate from the framework entirely, like what they're planning to do with Find Steed being Paladin exclusive.
The goal is to make it easier to make new caster classes and subclasses without them being stuck with only core to draw from. If they say Artificers are Arcane casters for example, then they don't have to stick an exhaustive list in Tasha's alongside them anymore, and then tag every new spell in Fizban's, Strixhaven etc with "Artificer!" and then have a future class be screwed.
I guess we will see in 2-3 weeks but the only arcane caster example we have knows all their spells, so if Tashas 2 Electric boogaloo comes out they instantly know all the enchantment spells in it assuming the DM uses that book. Their isn't even a learn it mechanic for Bards for it to work in another way. And it would seem weird to have the bard know all spells from 4 schools while the wizard is learning 2 spells total a level or whatever. And even if they change course for the last 3, the bard still is not designed right in that regard.
Put them all on a spell book mechanic. Call it something different for the class like the bard have it be their score sheets, wizards spell books, warlocks tomes, sorcerer maybe their scribe spell knowledge onto their souls. But that is what differentiates the arcane from the divine, theirs is learned/trained not just poofed into their head by a benevolent god. Even warlocks gain their knowledge through learning. They should not just know every spell they have access to. Heck if they are worried about new players making bad choices, be generous with how many they learn per level and how easy/costly it is to add more.
Like sure its a game and they want to make that side of it works. But they shouldn't just totally divorce their mechanics from the lore they created as the role playing part matters as well. IMO with RPGs the lore/setting should be reflected in the rules and the rules should reinforce the setting/lore as much as possible while still being a functional game. This they know all spells they have access to whether its just the bard or all arcane casters doesn't do that in the slightest. And sure they can change the lore and settings on how magic works but there comes a point where you are no longer D&D and I'd be better off just playing Fantasy Hero.
seems likely they'll opt to leave levels 0-3 open to player. it'll save them from having to spell out the recommended mechanisms for "starting with a deal, luring in or being lured by your patron in-game, and please check box for color of pew-pew before proceeding" stereotypes for each subclass separately. there'll be a blurb about "how in control and in-the-know the character is regarding their patron before level 3 pact details is best left as an open ended collaboration between player and dm." ...unless they've taken a different stance about writing lore/fluff and padding pages. a few of the books lately have been a bit thin.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
They could accomplish their goal (limiting dips) by just saying "You pick at level 1 but don't gain any features until level 3", but I think that would be annoying.
Of course, there's always the idea that the Patron will no longer be the Subclass. That choosing the Patron still happens at level 1, but the *subclass* choice at lvl 3 will be the Pact selection (Pact of the Chain, Pact of the Blade, etc.), just like it is currently. My thinking is that you can move some of the stuff from the Patron to the Pact, so for example, some of the Hexblade stuff gets moved into Pact of the Blade. Basically, making the official forming of the Pact more important. Since that already happens at lvl 3 in 5e, it's not as jarring as choosing the Patron late.
I guess my view is that without a patron, there is no pact, and without a pact it's not a warlock. And the pact is an agreement between two parties. Without the second party, it's simply not a warlock.
my expectation is that the patron flavor will come with their "baby pact", but the meat and potatoes will start to come online at level 3 when you start getting your pact boons. I think invocations will slide to 3 as well, so no more 2 levels of warlock for eldritch blast spam shennanigans. If EB is a class feature that scales on warlock level that single EB bolt isn't going to be nearly as impressive as it can be now scaling on character level, which means less hex pops. I think that change alone will solve /most/ power game moves centered on warlock, and I am nearly certain they will do that.
I think warlock 1 will remain basically what it is now, with eldritch blast becoming a class feature that scales on your warlock level rather than a cantrip scaling on your class level. I'm torn on whether I think the features like healing light for celestial or dark one's blessing make it as part of the baby pact, but I think they will be. I don't think EB stands up on it's own as a feature definitive enough. Without /something/ a warlock 1/2 would just be a weak rogue or ranger. Expanded spells, probably come online at level 3 along with invocations. That will make me sad for celestial (I loved healing with my celestial lock at low levels), but it is what it is.
The true hope that I have here is that hexblade completely goes away and most of those features are rolled into blade pact. Blade pact is an awesome idea but outside some edge builds practically requires hexblade. Being able to do some sort of melee other patron warlock I think would be really spicy and fun.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
They might mirror the ranger a bit more and get Hex concentration free which is a pretty snazzy perk at level 1. Though I did suggest in my play test its too good for level 1 if they are trying to dissuade dips. And I also hope hexblade goes away and is rolled into pact of the blade, it felt like a patch and you sort of felt locked into hex blade if you wanted to actually get value out of pact of the blade unless you were going for some off kilter build.
Edit to add on a related pact note I kind of think the first tier pact feat for the pacts should be rolled it, its kind of what defines the pact and requiring a invocation to get its core identity seems wrong. Pact of the tomes extra cantrips are a small bonus feature on top of why you took it, to get rituals.
Honestly the need to run Hexblade seems overstated imo. It's a little more MAD to run blade with a different patron, but if you're planning to focus on making weapon attacks you won't need as much CHA as opposed to STR or DEX, there's plenty of Warlock spell options that don't use your casting stat (like Hex), and most of the support comes from invocations. The only one of those related to CHA also has a level 12 requirement, which is a bit late in the game for what I always hear is the most common level range. Hexblade allows for a bit more optimization, sure, but it's not hard to put together a fair melee build without it. Plus, you can already get Medium Armor and Shield proficiency at level 1 with your background feat in 1D&D, so I expect fewer gish builds will be handing them out going forward.
This actually goes straight to what I have been saying about 1st level play in 1D&D. Previously level 1 was largely skipped because people couldn't get their character concept at level 1. Now the background feat situation largely solves that.
Want to play a spell sword. Well at level 1 you can either be a caster with the lightly armored feat or you could be a martial with magic initiate feat. The caster route will have 2 cantrips and 2 first level spells at level 1 and the martial route will have 2 cantrips and one first level spell at level 1. As you level the caster will grow until they get their spell sword subclass at 3 and vice versa with the fighter version.
Want the "tactical fighter" at level 1, the alert feat or the lucky or skilled feat could be for you... so on and so forth.
I feel like we are off topic, but Warlocks are not going to get their normal patron features until level 3. Mainly because making the pact boons the important 3rd level feature lowers the amount of subclass possibilities. Sub classes sell books. There are only 4 pact boons and we have had three for the entirety of 5e. I honestly believe it is more likely that the Pact boon will be moved to level 1 or 2. Paladins have always chosen their oaths at 3rd and it felt weird to me, but I expect the same of Warlocks now.
So you end up with:
1. Pact Magic, Pact Boon
2. Invocations
3. Patrons Gift- Basically you choose your patron but it’s assumed this is where your power was always coming from
I expect something similar from the sorcerer
1. Spellcasting, Font of Magic.
2. Metamagic.
3. Sorcerer Manifestation- basically your origin but now at 3rd level
I wonder if they will decouple the patron features (hurl through hell, fey presence etc) from the patron and have them more as invocation options with that patron as a requirement.
Edit: and Blade, Chain, Tome, Talisman which we already choose at 3rd becomes the subclass with patron adding some other benefits like what I mentioned above with something at 1st level besides spell casting to “seal the deal”
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?