I mean if the short rest thing is the problem to do many people. I think loads of us are fine with long rest recharge with something that lets you get a bump quickly but limited. Give them more spell slots and have them cap at 5th. start off at 3-4 and work up to 6-10 total. That work for people? High power slots but not as many as other casters. All max power though plus normal mystic arcanum pre this document?
6-10 spell level 5 spell slots is a lot. Do you really think that WoTC has not thought of that? It's obviously one of the first things that crossed the design team's mind, because at first glance it's the obvious solution. But you quickly realize that doesn't work because the level of the spell slots is too high.
I mean if the short rest thing is the problem to do many people. I think loads of us are fine with long rest recharge with something that lets you get a bump quickly but limited. Give them more spell slots and have them cap at 5th. start off at 3-4 and work up to 6-10 total. That work for people? High power slots but not as many as other casters. All max power though plus normal mystic arcanum pre this document?
6-10 spell level 5 spell slots is a lot. Do you really think that WoTC has not thought of that? It's obviously one of the first things that crossed the design team's mind, because at first glance it's the obvious solution. But you quickly realize that doesn't work because the level of the spell slots is too high.
20th level wizard has 9 spell slots in the 5-9th level range. I don't see how a warlock having 6 or 7 5th level slots at 20th level is overpowered.
This was honestly what I was expecting in the UA: a slight but meaningful increase in pact slots but not losing pact magic. I do think they're really trying to get rid of any feature dependent on short rests, though, and then over/wrongly corrected for the number of slots and making them "normal" spell slots.
Yet again, there are still plenty of features that depend on short rests. Just not spellcasting.
Two copper pieces: Keep Pact Magic, get rid of medium armor proficiency, make blade dips worse, make short rests quicker, make Eldritch Blast contain more interesting options and be augmented in some way by each subclass. The only problems I can foresee coming up with 10-minute short rests are ritual spells becoming redundant (since it takes as much extra time to save the slot as it does to get the slot back) and practically unlimited utility. But those are relatively minor things that can probably be fixed somehow.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
To add to the short rest argument thing. The "if you have 10 minutes you have an hour" the proper term is "if you have 10 minutes you PROBABLY have an hour". "If you have an hour you MIGHT have 8 hours"
So if you have 10 minutes it is an 85% chance you have an hour. If you have an hour you have like a 65% chance to have 8. If you have 8 there is a 90% you have 16.
So if you have 10 minutes, 85% you have time for short, 55% for long IF it has already been nearly a day, under 50% if it hasn't.
This is all a rough estimate. The actual odds are much lower for the long rest thing because the short rest is based on rolling every 20 minutes for a random encounter on a 1 on a d20.
So the actual numbers for a long rest would be around 30% because the chances change exponentially. 8% if it hasn't been 16 hours since you took one.
Currently a Warlock at level 20 has 4 level 5 slots, rechargable with Eldritch Master or a short rest, and four Arcanum between 6 and 9.
Currently a Wizard at level 20 has 3 level 5 slots, 2 level 6 slots, 2 level 7 slots, 1 level 8 slot, 1 level 9 slot.
The Warlock can, potentially, go into every fight with 4 level 5 slots to blow on spells, while the Wizard has to engage in some level of resource management if they're facing multiple fights in that day. Of course a limitation on Warlocks was their limited spell list, but that no longer exists. Now the Warlock has 22 level 5 spells to chooser from, which is more than five times their options in the 2014 Player's Handbook.
Having 6 level 5 slots might not seem like much in a vacuum, but if you retain the short rest/Eldritch Master recharge it gets out of hand pretty quickly.
Two copper pieces: Keep Pact Magic, get rid of medium armor proficiency, make blade dips worse, make short rests quicker, make Eldritch Blast contain more interesting options and be augmented in some way by each subclass. The only problems I can foresee coming up with 10-minute short rests are ritual spells becoming redundant (since it takes as much extra time to save the slot as it does to get the slot back) and practically unlimited utility. But those are relatively minor things that can probably be fixed somehow.
why make "blade dips" into warlock worse? if min/max dips are unwanted then the restriction should be on the optional rule of multiclassing, not one class with a cool cantrip, right?
edit to add quote above for context. that bit just kinda stuck out to me. i don't feel like anything in the Pact Weapon cantrip would be mandatory or "can't miss."
Things I have said and will reiterate. I think a few small changes would help this warlock and those that love warlocks in general (me being one of them) are as follows.
1. An extra invocation at 3.
2. Mystic arcanum starting at 3.
3. Mystic arcanum becoming real slots that you can upcast with.
4. More invocations to modify eldritch blast and hex.
5. Better hex, and invocations for it.
6. Old armor of agathys available on invocations.
7. Level adjustments for some invocations like the chain one.
8. Rolling agonizing blast into eldritch blast now that it is an unavoidable key part of the class. No other "martial" or "part martial" has to wait till level 2 to add their ability score to their primary attack.
Okay. You’re entitled to your opinion. I personally don’t care about your opinion, but you’re certainly entitled to it.
Great, I don't care about yours either. Can we exit the schoolyard now? Cripes.
Hey neighbor, you replied to something I posted as a reply to someone completely different, so clearly you must care about my opinion or you wouldn’t have taken the initiative to argue with me about it in the first place. You interjected yourself into the conversation, I never invited you in, so don’t blame me. I mean, just sayin.’ If I had engaged you in conversation then it would be on me to care, but I never asked for your opinion, you imposed it on me. 🤷♂️
Things I have said and will reiterate. I think a few small changes would help this warlock and those that love warlocks in general (me being one of them) are as follows.
1. An extra invocation at 3.
2. Mystic arcanum starting at 3.
3. Mystic arcanum becoming real slots that you can upcast with.
4. More invocations to modify eldritch blast and hex.
5. Better hex, and invocations for it.
6. Old armor of agathys available on invocations.
7. Level adjustments for some invocations like the chain one.
8. Rolling agonizing blast into eldritch blast now that it is an unavoidable key part of the class. No other "martial" or "part martial" has to wait till level 2 to add their ability score to their primary attack.
#1 & #2 agreed.
#3 I wouldn't want them to be actual slots. But I wouldn't mind letting you pick an upcast version of a specific spell as your arcanum. So for your 6th-level spell Arcanum you could pick Summon Fey upcast to 6th level in lieu of a 6th-level spell for example, but as with any other MA that's the only thing you can use it on.
#4 will likely show up in splatbooks, no need for them to go whole hog in core.
#5 I actually think hex is fine, it's the capstone that sucks.
Not sure what you mean with #6 and #7. #8 is fine as-is, a 1d10+Cha cantrip at 1st level isn't necessary.
To add to the short rest argument thing. The "if you have 10 minutes you have an hour" the proper term is "if you have 10 minutes you PROBABLY have an hour". "If you have an hour you MIGHT have 8 hours"
So if you have 10 minutes it is an 85% chance you have an hour. If you have an hour you have like a 65% chance to have 8. If you have 8 there is a 90% you have 16.
So if you have 10 minutes, 85% you have time for short, 55% for long IF it has already been nearly a day, under 50% if it hasn't.
This is all a rough estimate. The actual odds are much lower for the long rest thing because the short rest is based on rolling every 20 minutes for a random encounter on a 1 on a d20.
So the actual numbers for a long rest would be around 30% because the chances change exponentially. 8% if it hasn't been 16 hours since you took one.
Assuming you are using a random encounter instead of more a breathing world where you are making decision based on the activities of the enemies in the keep or whatever I'm not sure what you are saying makes sense. In the sense that yeah you generally should have a hour as 3 rolls most likely wont pull a 1 on a 20, sure. But the odds are still 1/6th that for it happening in your 10 minute short rest. Instead of rolling 3 1d20s since most random encounters are based on a hour and 18-20 means there is one, and if there was one in the hour I'd roll a d6 and on a 6 it was during the 10 minute short rest. Either way the math is basically the same except for the possibility for multiple random encounters. In the 1 every 20 minutes method, though it would be very rare.
Using your math a hour would have 3 shots at 1 in 20. So roughly 85%. in a 10 minute short rest its 1 in 40. As its a 50% chance in that 1 in 20 to be during your 10 minutes vs the other 10 minutes of the 20 minutes. If you say one result is a 15% chance of failure one is a 2.5% chance of failure, are they close, sort of 12.5% difference isn't massive across 100%, but it practice that difference is pretty huge. Across 2 short rests you'd like see a 1 hour rest interrupted every couple days assuming you were always in a place with a 20 minute random encounter threat level. You will go weeks with a 10 minute short rest before one is interrupted, again assuming you are constantly in a threat area with a 20 minute random encounter. I don't use random encounters much and many of those encounters would not necessarily interrupt a rest. So this one in 20 once per 20 minutes idea seems weird to me. But I guess it can work in something like a keep to decide if some guards happen to wonder in. I generally just make a judgement call based on time of day, what room they are in etc.
Ok, so at work, on break limited time. To answer the question "if it is a half caster what is the other half" the answer is obvious, it is 1/4 martial and 1/4 what you make of it.
[snip]
So... exactly what everyone moaned and groaned about Ranger being in early 5e? A class with no solid focus in one of the pillars, just a bit of this and a bit of that?
I mean if the short rest thing is the problem to do many people. I think loads of us are fine with long rest recharge with something that lets you get a bump quickly but limited. Give them more spell slots and have them cap at 5th. start off at 3-4 and work up to 6-10 total. That work for people? High power slots but not as many as other casters. All max power though plus normal mystic arcanum pre this document?
6-10 spell level 5 spell slots is a lot. Do you really think that WoTC has not thought of that? It's obviously one of the first things that crossed the design team's mind, because at first glance it's the obvious solution. But you quickly realize that doesn't work because the level of the spell slots is too high.
20th level wizard has 9 spell slots in the 5-9th level range. I don't see how a warlock having 6 or 7 5th level slots at 20th level is overpowered.
Well, here we would have to see some things. When do you gain those spell slots? Does Mystic Arcanum still exist? Because if it exists, it could have, according to what was proposed at level 20, 6-10 level 5 spell slots + 1 spell per day from levels 3 to 9. That makes 15 -19 level 3+ spells, of which 6-10 are level 5. Pretty much like a full caster. Also, with 6-10 level 5 spell slots, and the rest of the stuff a warlock has. Doesn't that seem a bit excessive? But as I was saying, you would also have to see when you win those 6-10 spell slots.
There would need to be progression. No 10 level stint with two spell slots. But it would be a fun power fantasy to aim for end game. No weak spells. All high level spells. Wizards get the flexibility from… I mean everything wizards get. Sorcerers get metamagic plus ways to get new spells. Warlocks get the bursts of power and no low level spells so you are easy to exhaust in a fight, but you recover quickly.
hell I am not even married to the short rest thing. If we want it to be long rest only just give them more slots way early and slap on arcanum
So... exactly what everyone moaned and groaned about Ranger being in early 5e? A class with no solid focus in one of the pillars, just a bit of this and a bit of that?
The problem with the ranger wasn't that it was unfocused. It was that it had a bunch of dysfunctional class features.
The core function of a warlock was never being a primary spellcaster -- it was the ability to do high sustained dpr with eldritch blast spam. It still does that just fine.
So... exactly what everyone moaned and groaned about Ranger being in early 5e? A class with no solid focus in one of the pillars, just a bit of this and a bit of that?
The problem with the ranger wasn't that it was unfocused. It was that it had a bunch of dysfunctional class features.
The core function of a warlock was never being a primary spellcaster -- it was the ability to do high sustained dpr with eldritch blast spam. It still does that just fine.
Which goes back to the hat I said earlier, that the people who really complain about the current Warlock’s spell casting capabilities don’t actually understand what the class is or how it is supposed to play.
The core function of a warlock was never being a primary spellcaster -- it was the ability to do high sustained dpr with eldritch blast spam. It still does that just fine.
That might be how people play it because they can't see past "EB is the optimal cantrip", but I'm sorry, that's an absolutely pitiful "core function" for a character in a role-playing game
No wonder people aren't satisfied playing warlocks, if that's what they've been told it's supposed to be
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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6-10 spell level 5 spell slots is a lot. Do you really think that WoTC has not thought of that? It's obviously one of the first things that crossed the design team's mind, because at first glance it's the obvious solution. But you quickly realize that doesn't work because the level of the spell slots is too high.
20th level wizard has 9 spell slots in the 5-9th level range. I don't see how a warlock having 6 or 7 5th level slots at 20th level is overpowered.
Great, I don't care about yours either. Can we exit the schoolyard now? Cripes.
Yet again, there are still plenty of features that depend on short rests. Just not spellcasting.
Two copper pieces: Keep Pact Magic, get rid of medium armor proficiency, make blade dips worse, make short rests quicker, make Eldritch Blast contain more interesting options and be augmented in some way by each subclass. The only problems I can foresee coming up with 10-minute short rests are ritual spells becoming redundant (since it takes as much extra time to save the slot as it does to get the slot back) and practically unlimited utility. But those are relatively minor things that can probably be fixed somehow.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
To add to the short rest argument thing. The "if you have 10 minutes you have an hour" the proper term is "if you have 10 minutes you PROBABLY have an hour". "If you have an hour you MIGHT have 8 hours"
So if you have 10 minutes it is an 85% chance you have an hour. If you have an hour you have like a 65% chance to have 8. If you have 8 there is a 90% you have 16.
So if you have 10 minutes, 85% you have time for short, 55% for long IF it has already been nearly a day, under 50% if it hasn't.
This is all a rough estimate. The actual odds are much lower for the long rest thing because the short rest is based on rolling every 20 minutes for a random encounter on a 1 on a d20.
So the actual numbers for a long rest would be around 30% because the chances change exponentially. 8% if it hasn't been 16 hours since you took one.
Currently a Warlock at level 20 has 4 level 5 slots, rechargable with Eldritch Master or a short rest, and four Arcanum between 6 and 9.
Currently a Wizard at level 20 has 3 level 5 slots, 2 level 6 slots, 2 level 7 slots, 1 level 8 slot, 1 level 9 slot.
The Warlock can, potentially, go into every fight with 4 level 5 slots to blow on spells, while the Wizard has to engage in some level of resource management if they're facing multiple fights in that day. Of course a limitation on Warlocks was their limited spell list, but that no longer exists. Now the Warlock has 22 level 5 spells to chooser from, which is more than five times their options in the 2014 Player's Handbook.
Having 6 level 5 slots might not seem like much in a vacuum, but if you retain the short rest/Eldritch Master recharge it gets out of hand pretty quickly.
why make "blade dips" into warlock worse? if min/max dips are unwanted then the restriction should be on the optional rule of multiclassing, not one class with a cool cantrip, right?
edit to add quote above for context. that bit just kinda stuck out to me. i don't feel like anything in the Pact Weapon cantrip would be mandatory or "can't miss."
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Things I have said and will reiterate. I think a few small changes would help this warlock and those that love warlocks in general (me being one of them) are as follows.
1. An extra invocation at 3.
2. Mystic arcanum starting at 3.
3. Mystic arcanum becoming real slots that you can upcast with.
4. More invocations to modify eldritch blast and hex.
5. Better hex, and invocations for it.
6. Old armor of agathys available on invocations.
7. Level adjustments for some invocations like the chain one.
8. Rolling agonizing blast into eldritch blast now that it is an unavoidable key part of the class. No other "martial" or "part martial" has to wait till level 2 to add their ability score to their primary attack.
Hey neighbor, you replied to something I posted as a reply to someone completely different, so clearly you must care about my opinion or you wouldn’t have taken the initiative to argue with me about it in the first place. You interjected yourself into the conversation, I never invited you in, so don’t blame me. I mean, just sayin.’ If I had engaged you in conversation then it would be on me to care, but I never asked for your opinion, you imposed it on me. 🤷♂️
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Umm… you quoted his comment in your post.
Go back further, posts 233 & 235.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Content Troubleshooting
Oh. I was just confused because you quoted them in post 335, then they quoted you in post 344, and then you quoted that post. Complex.
...Anyhoo, moving right along...
#1 & #2 agreed.
#3 I wouldn't want them to be actual slots. But I wouldn't mind letting you pick an upcast version of a specific spell as your arcanum. So for your 6th-level spell Arcanum you could pick Summon Fey upcast to 6th level in lieu of a 6th-level spell for example, but as with any other MA that's the only thing you can use it on.
#4 will likely show up in splatbooks, no need for them to go whole hog in core.
#5 I actually think hex is fine, it's the capstone that sucks.
Not sure what you mean with #6 and #7. #8 is fine as-is, a 1d10+Cha cantrip at 1st level isn't necessary.
Assuming you are using a random encounter instead of more a breathing world where you are making decision based on the activities of the enemies in the keep or whatever I'm not sure what you are saying makes sense. In the sense that yeah you generally should have a hour as 3 rolls most likely wont pull a 1 on a 20, sure. But the odds are still 1/6th that for it happening in your 10 minute short rest. Instead of rolling 3 1d20s since most random encounters are based on a hour and 18-20 means there is one, and if there was one in the hour I'd roll a d6 and on a 6 it was during the 10 minute short rest. Either way the math is basically the same except for the possibility for multiple random encounters. In the 1 every 20 minutes method, though it would be very rare.
Using your math a hour would have 3 shots at 1 in 20. So roughly 85%. in a 10 minute short rest its 1 in 40. As its a 50% chance in that 1 in 20 to be during your 10 minutes vs the other 10 minutes of the 20 minutes. If you say one result is a 15% chance of failure one is a 2.5% chance of failure, are they close, sort of 12.5% difference isn't massive across 100%, but it practice that difference is pretty huge. Across 2 short rests you'd like see a 1 hour rest interrupted every couple days assuming you were always in a place with a 20 minute random encounter threat level. You will go weeks with a 10 minute short rest before one is interrupted, again assuming you are constantly in a threat area with a 20 minute random encounter. I don't use random encounters much and many of those encounters would not necessarily interrupt a rest. So this one in 20 once per 20 minutes idea seems weird to me. But I guess it can work in something like a keep to decide if some guards happen to wonder in. I generally just make a judgement call based on time of day, what room they are in etc.
So... exactly what everyone moaned and groaned about Ranger being in early 5e? A class with no solid focus in one of the pillars, just a bit of this and a bit of that?
Well, here we would have to see some things. When do you gain those spell slots? Does Mystic Arcanum still exist? Because if it exists, it could have, according to what was proposed at level 20, 6-10 level 5 spell slots + 1 spell per day from levels 3 to 9. That makes 15 -19 level 3+ spells, of which 6-10 are level 5. Pretty much like a full caster. Also, with 6-10 level 5 spell slots, and the rest of the stuff a warlock has. Doesn't that seem a bit excessive? But as I was saying, you would also have to see when you win those 6-10 spell slots.
There would need to be progression. No 10 level stint with two spell slots. But it would be a fun power fantasy to aim for end game. No weak spells. All high level spells. Wizards get the flexibility from… I mean everything wizards get. Sorcerers get metamagic plus ways to get new spells. Warlocks get the bursts of power and no low level spells so you are easy to exhaust in a fight, but you recover quickly.
hell I am not even married to the short rest thing. If we want it to be long rest only just give them more slots way early and slap on arcanum
The problem with the ranger wasn't that it was unfocused. It was that it had a bunch of dysfunctional class features.
The core function of a warlock was never being a primary spellcaster -- it was the ability to do high sustained dpr with eldritch blast spam. It still does that just fine.
Which goes back to the hat I said earlier, that the people who really complain about the current Warlock’s spell casting capabilities don’t actually understand what the class is or how it is supposed to play.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That might be how people play it because they can't see past "EB is the optimal cantrip", but I'm sorry, that's an absolutely pitiful "core function" for a character in a role-playing game
No wonder people aren't satisfied playing warlocks, if that's what they've been told it's supposed to be
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)