There are some interesting changes for warlock in the UA but the change to pact slots and pact slot spell level is a no go for me. If WOTC is trying to remove the short rest mechanic from the warlock class that is easy enough to do by adding a class feature that allows warlocks to regain pact slots when they roll initiative or during a long rest.
Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite are in Xanathar's. As it says at the top of every UA these are rules for the new Player's Handbook, which replaces the 2014 Player's Handbook. They mention when they import rules from other books like Xanathar's or Tasha's. They've even stated that this is a revision of 5th edition, not a completely new edition, which means that, until such time as they rewrite them, the rules from all books are legal as long as they're not conflicting with the new rules. For example subclass features arriving at 6, 10, and 14.
Between 5 and 8, without any other bonuses, the Warlock is rolling 2(d10 +4 ) (18 charisma), for between 10 and 28 damage, which is much the same as any other melee character without some special rules involved, and rolling the same with Eldritch Blast. The aforementioned PAM Paladin with glaive and 18 strength is rolling 2(d10 + 4) + d4 + 4, for between 15 and 36 damage. At level 8, when the Warlock gets 20 charisma and the Paladin gets 20 strength, that adds 2 to the Warlock totals, and 3 to the Paladin totals.
Alright. I have suggested several times that they should make Pact Magic a long rest feature and simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots to compensate for that. People have said that’s not possible because there would either be too few slots to feel worthwhile, or too many to be balanced on account of them all being max spell level for the character level. I have said that all it takes is finding the Goldilocks zone. I was challenged to find it.
Okay, I decided to take the challenge. But how? I obviously didn’t have time to do it by trial and error. What I needed was a guideline. Then it occurred to me that there already existed the guideline I needed in the Spell Point system! So I started by converting the spell points for a full caster into Pact Magic slots, but I quickly realized that was the express lane to “too many.” Then it occurred to me that since WotC is treating the warlock as a half-caster, I should use the number of Spell Points for a half-caster. But since the biggest complaint I see most people have with them being half-casters is the delay in spell level progression compared to full-casters, so I used the full-caster spell level progression. Here is my hybrid idea for a revised Pact Magic that resets on a long rest. (Notes- Warlocks would still get eldritch blast and hex for free In addition to the cantrips and spells known listed below. Eldritch Invocations and Mystic Arcana would also be in addition to this.)
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
That👆should provide a decent starting point towards finding the Goldilocks zone for long rest Pact Magic.
Alright. I have suggested several times that they should make Pact Magic a long rest feature and simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots to compensate for that. People have said that’s not possible because there would either be too few slots to feel worthwhile, or too many to be balanced on account of them all being max spell level for the character level. I have said that all it takes is finding the Goldilocks zone. I was challenged to find it.
Okay, I decided to take the challenge. But how? I obviously didn’t have time to do it by trial and error. What I needed was a guideline. Then it occurred to me that there already existed the guideline I needed in the Spell Point system! So I started by converting the spell points for a full caster into Pact Magic slots, but I quickly realized that was the express lane to “too many.” Then it occurred to me that since WotC is treating the warlock as a half-caster, I should use the number of Spell Points for a half-caster. But since the biggest complaint I see most people have with them being half-casters is the delay in spell level progression compared to full-casters, so I used the full-caster spell level progression. Here is my hybrid idea for a revised Pact Magic that resets on a long rest. (Notes- Warlocks would still get eldritch blast and hex for free In addition to the cantrips and spells known listed below. Eldritch Invocations and Mystic Arcana would also be in addition to this.)
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
That👆should provide a decent starting point towards finding the Goldilocks zone for long rest Pact Magic.
This is good stuff! It’s amazing how sometimes fan content is better than the stuff WotC makes.
Alright. I have suggested several times that they should make Pact Magic a long rest feature and simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots to compensate for that. People have said that’s not possible because there would either be too few slots to feel worthwhile, or too many to be balanced on account of them all being max spell level for the character level. I have said that all it takes is finding the Goldilocks zone. I was challenged to find it.
Okay, I decided to take the challenge. But how? I obviously didn’t have time to do it by trial and error. What I needed was a guideline. Then it occurred to me that there already existed the guideline I needed in the Spell Point system! So I started by converting the spell points for a full caster into Pact Magic slots, but I quickly realized that was the express lane to “too many.” Then it occurred to me that since WotC is treating the warlock as a half-caster, I should use the number of Spell Points for a half-caster. But since the biggest complaint I see most people have with them being half-casters is the delay in spell level progression compared to full-casters, so I used the full-caster spell level progression. Here is my hybrid idea for a revised Pact Magic that resets on a long rest. (Notes- Warlocks would still get eldritch blast and hex for free In addition to the cantrips and spells known listed below. Eldritch Invocations and Mystic Arcana would also be in addition to this.)
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
That👆should provide a decent starting point towards finding the Goldilocks zone for long rest Pact Magic.
That’s a nice starting point. I don’t know if 9 is too many, but my thinking is that it may be too high. Worth the discussion.
My feelings would be cap it at 6, maybe 7, and add more invocations known and allow Mystic Arcanum (up to 6th level spells) to be taken up to twice per spell level. So if you wanted two 6th level mystic arcanum’s you could. The table used in the UA could be expanded to add a column to show what level you can take the the additional spells. At 7th-8th you can take a second 3rd level spell. 9th-10th a 4th level spell. 13–14 a 5th level spell. And 17+ a 6th level spell. That would use up more of your invocations but that’s a choice each player would have to make.
Alright. I have suggested several times that they should make Pact Magic a long rest feature and simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots to compensate for that. People have said that’s not possible because there would either be too few slots to feel worthwhile, or too many to be balanced on account of them all being max spell level for the character level. I have said that all it takes is finding the Goldilocks zone. I was challenged to find it.
Okay, I decided to take the challenge. But how? I obviously didn’t have time to do it by trial and error. What I needed was a guideline. Then it occurred to me that there already existed the guideline I needed in the Spell Point system! So I started by converting the spell points for a full caster into Pact Magic slots, but I quickly realized that was the express lane to “too many.” Then it occurred to me that since WotC is treating the warlock as a half-caster, I should use the number of Spell Points for a half-caster. But since the biggest complaint I see most people have with them being half-casters is the delay in spell level progression compared to full-casters, so I used the full-caster spell level progression. Here is my hybrid idea for a revised Pact Magic that resets on a long rest. (Notes- Warlocks would still get eldritch blast and hex for free In addition to the cantrips and spells known listed below. Eldritch Invocations and Mystic Arcana would also be in addition to this.)
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
That👆should provide a decent starting point towards finding the Goldilocks zone for long rest Pact Magic.
That’s a nice starting point. I don’t know if 9 is too many, but my thinking is that it may be too high. Worth the discussion.
My feelings would be cap it at 6, maybe 7, and add more invocations known and allow Mystic Arcanum (up to 6th level spells) to be taken up to twice per spell level. So if you wanted two 6th level mystic arcanum’s you could. The table used in the UA could be expanded to add a column to show what level you can take the the additional spells. At 7th-8th you can take a second 3rd level spell. 9th-10th a 4th level spell. 13–14 a 5th level spell. And 17+ a 6th level spell. That would use up more of your invocations but that’s a choice each player would have to make.
It’s at least somewhere to start the discussion, and it’s based on the same math that went into the rest of the game.
Considering that the warlock is giving up 4 × 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th level slots, and a second 6th-level slot, I don’t think 9 is unreasonable. I think it’s worth considering reducing that total number, but I wouldn’t go any lower than 7 slots at 17th & 18th levels and then 8 slots to cap it, or maybe 5 slots at 15th & 16th levels, then 6 at17th & 18th, and then 7 slots to cap it off.
If we are to drop the total number of slots, then I definitely want to see an Invocation that could be taken multiple times in hat would allow infinite castings of any 1st-level spell that doesn’t require an attack roll or saving throw, and another for 2nd-level spells with the same caveats locked behind a higher level. And they would also then likely need a second 6th-level Mystic Arcanum.
I'm not sure I find 9 to be too many but for a group that was able to find short rests 2-3 for the day up through 8th level is rough. It is why I think using the current warlocks progression with 1 extra thrown in level 5-7ish with Eldritch master(different name though) moved in as a 5th level feature would work better for me on a long rest build, maybe a 2nd eldritch master at like level 13. I think you could do that and keep it short rest still, but I could see it working for the long rest build as well. With mystic arcanums of course built into the class, and personally I think they could probably use 10-11 invocations across 20 levels.
For the main topic:
Being a fan of key words from earlier editions because I think they generally work better than 5es natural language method, I'd add a invocation for spell casting. It is a bit complicated but. Something like Eldritch Caster(apprentice/journeyman/master) spells tagged with that are accessible to that invocation. EA would allow you to cast a spell once per day at its base level and its added to you known spells, EJ would allow you to cast it 3 times a day and its added to known spells, EM allows you to cast it at will and its added to your known spells. So something like mask of many faces would go away and EM would be added change selfs spell description. Have some basic rules on when it can happen for a spell based on its spell level. So like 2nd level spells are not eligible for EM until 7th level or something. If a spell is eligible for EM, its also eligible for EJ/EM which could have lower level requirements.
And this kind of fits in with their current design goals of Arcane/divine/primal lists. They wont have to make a new invocation each time they think hey it would be cool if there was a invocation for this spell. Some basic invocations with maybe like a level requirement chart, say its repeatable and just tag spells with EA/EJ/EM. You only really have to tag it for the highest level its eligible for and the level requirement chart would do the rest.
One major point of order on the level 18 feature is that "magic damage" is a very imprecise term, and there's been confusion over past features that used it to describe the covered effects.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
You seem to be assuming a level 9 paladin has a non-magical weapon, which is not a particularly realistic assumption at level 9, and are ignoring fighting style (not that GWM is particularly good, but it's there). Also, I'm only using stuff that's in the released playtest, and you're not including fighting style in your math.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
You seem to be assuming a level 9 paladin has a non-magical weapon, which is not a particularly realistic assumption at level 9, and are ignoring fighting style (not that GWM is particularly good, but it's there). Also, I'm only using stuff that's in the released playtest, and you're not including fighting style in your math.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
of your 1st version
Well, as a base I think it's a bit old for the higher levels, 9... we'll still have to try it, even so I'll propose a variant of yours, in which you only change the value of a level 5 space, from 5 to 6 , and so that at level 17 it doesn't make a big jump by increasing 2 spaces, I distributed it between that and the next one. It's not much, it just slows down the 4th and 5th slot a couple of levels, and the max is 8 slots.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
3
5th
10th
3
10
3
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
4
5th
14th
4
12
4
5th
15th
4
13
5
5th
16th
4
13
5
5th
17th
4
14
6
5th
18th
4
14
7
5th
19th
4
15
8
5th
20th
4
15
8
5th
I hope it's better this way, sorry if I went too far.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0 v.1.0.1
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2 3
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3 4
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4 5
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8 7
5th
18th
4
14
8 7
5th
19th
4
15
9 8
5th
20th
4
15
9 8
5th
Well, I think it will be better than your 1st version, especially at extreme levels: I really liked changing the 3rd from level 5 to 4 because you don't gain space along with improving it, and it softens/moderates the great final growth, which avoids or reduces any excessive increase that may unbalance it.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
of your 1st version
Well, as a base I think it's a bit old for the higher levels, 9... we'll still have to try it, even so I'll propose a variant of yours, in which you only change the value of a level 5 space, from 5 to 6 , and so that at level 17 it doesn't make a big jump by increasing 2 spaces, I distributed it between that and the next one. It's not much, it just slows down the 4th and 5th slot a couple of levels, and the max is 8 slots.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
3
5th
10th
3
10
3
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
4
5th
14th
4
12
4
5th
15th
4
13
5
5th
16th
4
13
5
5th
17th
4
14
6
5th
18th
4
14
7
5th
19th
4
15
8
5th
20th
4
15
8
5th
I hope it's better this way, sorry if I went too far.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0 v.1.0.1
Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Slot Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2 3
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3 4
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4 5
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8 7
5th
18th
4
14
8 7
5th
19th
4
15
9 8
5th
20th
4
15
9 8
5th
Well, I think it will be better than your 1st version, especially at extreme levels: I really liked changing the 3rd from level 5 to 4 because you don't gain space along with improving it, and it softens/moderates the great final growth, which avoids or reduces any excessive increase that may unbalance it.
No, you didn’t go too far. This was meant to be a community exercise and all. Yeah, that first attempt was just following the Spell Point progression right out of the book, but I rounded up once and down the rest of the time whenever things didn’t come out even, which was pretty much most of the levels. I didn’t put any actual thought into it or anything, I just followed the book. The second table I actually put some thought into.
Warlocks currently work just fine for what they are. What they are, is an arcane archer. They do that quite well. If you view them as a SPELLCASTER, then they don't really stack up.
Then why are they in the Mage group? Why are they being touted as an equivalent spellcaster to wizards and sorcerers, if in different ways? If they're not supposed to cast spells, why are they being bundled in with the castiest of casty boys?
They are currently a strange quasi caster. They are being standardized as half casters like rangers and paladins. They're bundled as mages out of convenience and lack of somewhere else to put them.
They are in the Mage group because their spell list (old warlock) has more in common with Wizards and Sorcerers than any other spell list and Mages group needed a third. And Bard was already in the expert group.
They turned them into the arcane half-caster that we didn't previously have. Primal has the ranger, divine has the paladin, and now arcane has the warlock. Mage group didn't "need" a third, but adding a half-caster variant makes sense. Warlock is the obvious candidate for that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
You seem to be assuming a level 9 paladin has a non-magical weapon, which is not a particularly realistic assumption at level 9, and are ignoring fighting style (not that GWM is particularly good, but it's there). Also, I'm only using stuff that's in the released playtest, and you're not including fighting style in your math.
Then the only thing you're allowed to compare the 1DnD Warlock to is the 2014 Warlock, not anything from the intervening sourcebooks, and if the Paladin can have a magic weapon so can the Warlock. 2014 Warlock compared to 2014 Paladin sees the Paladin outclass the Warlock in melee by a much greater margin than 2023 Warlock compared to 2023 Paladin. Fighting styles, other than archery and defensive, don't do much.
1DnD Paladin received a hit with the nerf bat, losing multiple smites a turn and the full power of great weapon master. I gave them PAM because I consider it a standard part of the build, but if they were fighting with a longsword, losing the BA attack, they wouldn't be ahead of the Warlock.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
You seem to be assuming a level 9 paladin has a non-magical weapon, which is not a particularly realistic assumption at level 9, and are ignoring fighting style (not that GWM is particularly good, but it's there). Also, I'm only using stuff that's in the released playtest, and you're not including fighting style in your math.
Paladin is also more sustainable DPR.
How?
Paladin gives, as I showed, 2d10 + 1d4 + 15 a round (at level 9), giving 18 to 39 damage per round. It can use smites to get 2d8 to 4d8 damage per round, but that's not sustainable. It starts doing more damage at level 11, when it gets radiant strikes, for an additional 3 to 24 damage per round, total 21 to 63 damage.
Warlock, at level 9, even if we only use the 2023 rules, is rolling 2d10 + 2d6 +10 per round, between 14 and 42 damage a round. None of which consumes any resources. They could expend a third level slot for a 2d6 Hex which would last for 8 hours, bringing it to 2d10 + 4d6 + 10 per round. Between 16 and 54 damage a round.
So for sustained damage, at level 9, the PAM Paladin averages 28.5 damage a round, and the Bladelock averages 28 damage a round, unless they use Hex which gives an average of 35 damage a round. At level 11 the PAM Paladin is averaging 42 damage a round.
Given the Paladin is meant to be something of a melee specialist, while the Bladelock is a gish, the fact they're so close together should be surprising.
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There are some interesting changes for warlock in the UA but the change to pact slots and pact slot spell level is a no go for me. If WOTC is trying to remove the short rest mechanic from the warlock class that is easy enough to do by adding a class feature that allows warlocks to regain pact slots when they roll initiative or during a long rest.
Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite are in Xanathar's. As it says at the top of every UA these are rules for the new Player's Handbook, which replaces the 2014 Player's Handbook. They mention when they import rules from other books like Xanathar's or Tasha's. They've even stated that this is a revision of 5th edition, not a completely new edition, which means that, until such time as they rewrite them, the rules from all books are legal as long as they're not conflicting with the new rules. For example subclass features arriving at 6, 10, and 14.
Between 5 and 8, without any other bonuses, the Warlock is rolling 2(d10 +4 ) (18 charisma), for between 10 and 28 damage, which is much the same as any other melee character without some special rules involved, and rolling the same with Eldritch Blast. The aforementioned PAM Paladin with glaive and 18 strength is rolling 2(d10 + 4) + d4 + 4, for between 15 and 36 damage. At level 8, when the Warlock gets 20 charisma and the Paladin gets 20 strength, that adds 2 to the Warlock totals, and 3 to the Paladin totals.
Alright. I have suggested several times that they should make Pact Magic a long rest feature and simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots to compensate for that. People have said that’s not possible because there would either be too few slots to feel worthwhile, or too many to be balanced on account of them all being max spell level for the character level. I have said that all it takes is finding the Goldilocks zone. I was challenged to find it.
Okay, I decided to take the challenge. But how? I obviously didn’t have time to do it by trial and error. What I needed was a guideline. Then it occurred to me that there already existed the guideline I needed in the Spell Point system! So I started by converting the spell points for a full caster into Pact Magic slots, but I quickly realized that was the express lane to “too many.” Then it occurred to me that since WotC is treating the warlock as a half-caster, I should use the number of Spell Points for a half-caster. But since the biggest complaint I see most people have with them being half-casters is the delay in spell level progression compared to full-casters, so I used the full-caster spell level progression. Here is my hybrid idea for a revised Pact Magic that resets on a long rest. (Notes- Warlocks would still get eldritch blast and hex for free In addition to the cantrips and spells known listed below. Eldritch Invocations and Mystic Arcana would also be in addition to this.)
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips
Known
Spells
Known
Spell
Slots
Slot
Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
8
5th
18th
4
14
8
5th
19th
4
15
9
5th
20th
4
15
9
5th
That👆should provide a decent starting point towards finding the Goldilocks zone for long rest Pact Magic.
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I also apologize for my confusion, I don’t like Yurei’s posts either. You can use the quote button to specify which post you’re talking about.
This is good stuff! It’s amazing how sometimes fan content is better than the stuff WotC makes.
That’s a nice starting point. I don’t know if 9 is too many, but my thinking is that it may be too high. Worth the discussion.
My feelings would be cap it at 6, maybe 7, and add more invocations known and allow Mystic Arcanum (up to 6th level spells) to be taken up to twice per spell level. So if you wanted two 6th level mystic arcanum’s you could. The table used in the UA could be expanded to add a column to show what level you can take the the additional spells. At 7th-8th you can take a second 3rd level spell. 9th-10th a 4th level spell. 13–14 a 5th level spell. And 17+ a 6th level spell. That would use up more of your invocations but that’s a choice each player would have to make.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
It’s at least somewhere to start the discussion, and it’s based on the same math that went into the rest of the game.
Considering that the warlock is giving up 4 × 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th level slots, and a second 6th-level slot, I don’t think 9 is unreasonable. I think it’s worth considering reducing that total number, but I wouldn’t go any lower than 7 slots at 17th & 18th levels and then 8 slots to cap it, or maybe 5 slots at 15th & 16th levels, then 6 at17th & 18th, and then 7 slots to cap it off.
If we are to drop the total number of slots, then I definitely want to see an Invocation that could be taken multiple times in hat would allow infinite castings of any 1st-level spell that doesn’t require an attack roll or saving throw, and another for 2nd-level spells with the same caveats locked behind a higher level. And they would also then likely need a second 6th-level Mystic Arcanum.
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Agreed that 9 5th level spell slots might be overpowered....but it's a very good start and I like that FAR better than what we get in the UA.
I'm not sure I find 9 to be too many but for a group that was able to find short rests 2-3 for the day up through 8th level is rough. It is why I think using the current warlocks progression with 1 extra thrown in level 5-7ish with Eldritch master(different name though) moved in as a 5th level feature would work better for me on a long rest build, maybe a 2nd eldritch master at like level 13. I think you could do that and keep it short rest still, but I could see it working for the long rest build as well. With mystic arcanums of course built into the class, and personally I think they could probably use 10-11 invocations across 20 levels.
For the main topic:
Being a fan of key words from earlier editions because I think they generally work better than 5es natural language method, I'd add a invocation for spell casting. It is a bit complicated but. Something like Eldritch Caster(apprentice/journeyman/master) spells tagged with that are accessible to that invocation. EA would allow you to cast a spell once per day at its base level and its added to you known spells, EJ would allow you to cast it 3 times a day and its added to known spells, EM allows you to cast it at will and its added to your known spells. So something like mask of many faces would go away and EM would be added change selfs spell description. Have some basic rules on when it can happen for a spell based on its spell level. So like 2nd level spells are not eligible for EM until 7th level or something. If a spell is eligible for EM, its also eligible for EJ/EM which could have lower level requirements.
And this kind of fits in with their current design goals of Arcane/divine/primal lists. They wont have to make a new invocation each time they think hey it would be cool if there was a invocation for this spell. Some basic invocations with maybe like a level requirement chart, say its repeatable and just tag spells with EA/EJ/EM. You only really have to tag it for the highest level its eligible for and the level requirement chart would do the rest.
Also some posts got deleted out so that may have screwed with the quote system.
Fixed with version 1.0.1.
@Raiyous
My idea is Warlock being full caster until Spell Slot 5.
Unfortunately, multiclassing will and always be broken in D&D so the DM will always have to balance it.
Okay, how’s this as a revision?
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea
v.1.0.0v.1.0.1Level
Cantrips
Known
Spells
Known
Spell
Slots
Slot
Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
232nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
344th
9th
2
10
4
5th
10th
3
10
4
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
455th
13th
3
12
5
5th
14th
4
12
5
5th
15th
4
13
6
5th
16th
4
13
6
5th
17th
4
14
875th
18th
4
14
875th
19th
4
15
985th
20th
4
15
985th
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You seem to be assuming a level 9 paladin has a non-magical weapon, which is not a particularly realistic assumption at level 9, and are ignoring fighting style (not that GWM is particularly good, but it's there). Also, I'm only using stuff that's in the released playtest, and you're not including fighting style in your math.
Paladin is also more sustainable DPR.
of your 1st version
Well, as a base I think it's a bit old for the higher levels, 9... we'll still have to try it, even so I'll propose a variant of yours, in which you only change the value of a level 5 space, from 5 to 6 , and so that at level 17 it doesn't make a big jump by increasing 2 spaces, I distributed it between that and the next one. It's not much, it just slows down the 4th and 5th slot a couple of levels, and the max is 8 slots.
Sposta’s Long Rest Pact Magic Progression Idea v.1.0.0
Level
Cantrips
Known
Spells
Known
Spell
Slots
Slot
Level
1st
2
2
2
1st
2nd
2
3
2
1st
3rd
2
4
2
2nd
4th
2
5
2
2nd
5th
2
6
3
3rd
6th
2
7
3
3rd
7th
2
8
3
4th
8th
2
9
3
4th
9th
2
10
3
5th
10th
3
10
3
5th
11th
3
11
4
5th
12th
3
11
4
5th
13th
3
12
4
5th
14th
4
12
4
5th
15th
4
13
5
5th
16th
4
13
5
5th
17th
4
14
6
5th
18th
4
14
7
5th
19th
4
15
8
5th
20th
4
15
8
5th
I hope it's better this way, sorry if I went too far.
Well, I think it will be better than your 1st version, especially at extreme levels: I really liked changing the 3rd from level 5 to 4 because you don't gain space along with improving it, and it softens/moderates the great final growth, which avoids or reduces any excessive increase that may unbalance it.
No, you didn’t go too far. This was meant to be a community exercise and all. Yeah, that first attempt was just following the Spell Point progression right out of the book, but I rounded up once and down the rest of the time whenever things didn’t come out even, which was pretty much most of the levels. I didn’t put any actual thought into it or anything, I just followed the book. The second table I actually put some thought into.
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They turned them into the arcane half-caster that we didn't previously have. Primal has the ranger, divine has the paladin, and now arcane has the warlock. Mage group didn't "need" a third, but adding a half-caster variant makes sense. Warlock is the obvious candidate for that.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Then the only thing you're allowed to compare the 1DnD Warlock to is the 2014 Warlock, not anything from the intervening sourcebooks, and if the Paladin can have a magic weapon so can the Warlock. 2014 Warlock compared to 2014 Paladin sees the Paladin outclass the Warlock in melee by a much greater margin than 2023 Warlock compared to 2023 Paladin. Fighting styles, other than archery and defensive, don't do much.
1DnD Paladin received a hit with the nerf bat, losing multiple smites a turn and the full power of great weapon master. I gave them PAM because I consider it a standard part of the build, but if they were fighting with a longsword, losing the BA attack, they wouldn't be ahead of the Warlock.
How?
Paladin gives, as I showed, 2d10 + 1d4 + 15 a round (at level 9), giving 18 to 39 damage per round. It can use smites to get 2d8 to 4d8 damage per round, but that's not sustainable. It starts doing more damage at level 11, when it gets radiant strikes, for an additional 3 to 24 damage per round, total 21 to 63 damage.
Warlock, at level 9, even if we only use the 2023 rules, is rolling 2d10 + 2d6 +10 per round, between 14 and 42 damage a round. None of which consumes any resources. They could expend a third level slot for a 2d6 Hex which would last for 8 hours, bringing it to 2d10 + 4d6 + 10 per round. Between 16 and 54 damage a round.
So for sustained damage, at level 9, the PAM Paladin averages 28.5 damage a round, and the Bladelock averages 28 damage a round, unless they use Hex which gives an average of 35 damage a round. At level 11 the PAM Paladin is averaging 42 damage a round.
Given the Paladin is meant to be something of a melee specialist, while the Bladelock is a gish, the fact they're so close together should be surprising.