I wonder, what if you create a spell by modifying another spell... and then modify a created spell and create a new one, twice modified. And then a new one, thrice modified. It kinda works, but I'm not sure why.
Also, if Scribe Spell is a spell, what if you lose your spellbook and you don't have it memorized... Whoops.
You can’t modify a created spell. You can only modify an arcane spell, and once you create a spell it loses that tag.
seeing the Evoker subclass we might get subclasses for each school gain and they will all have a version of Savant halving the cost of putting a spell of your chosen school into your spell book.
Should the Savant ability be changed to also apply to the cost of the Create Spell spell ? as in a way it is a cost for putting a spell in your book
You still can have only 1 modified spell per Long Rest.
No, you can only have 1 modified spell at a time per long rest. You could easily for instance have a concentration can't be broken fly spell prepared because you need to reach a higher entrance to a cave, than once you reach it you can ritual cast modify again to modify something like hypnotic pattern so it won't hit allies before going into the caves than coming to another issue you could ritual cast it yet again to modify another spell to do something else (like concentration cant be broken slow if the boss seems close so you can just shut him down, or no S component counterspell)
It's pretty flexible if you have the time to ritual cast it by scouting out and whatnot
Yes, I stand corrected. You can only have 1 modified spell at a time.
For the people saying how the created spells are not running around in the world... Scribe Spell only scribes Arcane tag Spells, not Wizard tag spells (for now), so the Created Spells stay only with their creators, unless the DM wants to.
Given enough time and money (someone mentioned Liches), a wizard can have a lot of "Created Spells" on his spellbooks, and I understand that could be a problem since the created spells are strictly better than their original versions,... but its almost the same as it is now with known spells in 5e (Given enough time and money, you can have all spells in the PH in your spellbook, you dont use a third of that in a campaing, but you have them), and its unnecessary really. Create Spell is an interesting, though powerfull, ability that the DM has more control in its use than PCs, even if they go out of their way to get enough "time" and "money" (both aspects stricly managed by the DM, on most campaings normally).
"It's pretty flexible if you have the time to ritual cast it by scouting out and whatnot" Yes, the key here is "if you have the time" the flexibility skyrockets, as always. Thats why I think Memorize spell si so good, I don't play wizards much, but there's always at least once (specially early to mid levels) that you don't have a particular utility/usefull spell prepared for that day, that could help or ease solving a particular puzzle/problem, and its a party decision to wait for an entire day (not all campaings can have that time constraint) or find another solution.
The problem I see with Create Spell is largely worldbuilding. I mean, why wouldn't some rich-ass archmage have made better versions of every spell out there and sold them around?
Because they don’t want to share.
Because if they’re already rich, why go to the bother of selling things. They’re trying to slide into mystra’s dms, not run a small business
Because changing fireball into lightning ball is small potatoes, any wizard of sufficient level can do that on their own. That’s a tweak, not a new spell. The arch wizard is trying to make something completely new, not just something derivative. Or maybe they’re spending all their time trying to be a lich.
So nobody in the Entire History of Forever and Ever has decided to share something they made with Create Spell? That just... doesn't make sense.
Agreed. But that doesn’t mean it’s widely available. It does give me an idea, as a DM, to put something like lightning ball in a found spellbook. Though, it would have a wizard tag, not an arcane tag, so maybe the finder couldn’t use it. Hmmm.
Maybe the wizard could choose to move their Arcane spells to the new book they found with the uber spell? So you could put a crazy spell into the world but they'd have to be keep the spell book forever to keep access to it? Maybe the books got a locater on it or its cursed in some way? But then later when they find another spell book with a custom spell they have to choose which one to keep? I mean there's some stuff there.
Although I do have to say, the whole 'spell book' mechanic has always been a little off for me. I mean, if I handed my level 1 wizard a smartphone spell book with every single Arcane spell preloaded into it, would my game break? Nope. Because the game isnt balanced in any way over what spells any specific caster has or even if there is one caster to begin with, and that includes any spells the player might create.
One note I feel I need to add though "trying to slide into Mystra's DMs" is just straight fire and I damn near spit taked my coffee when i read it.
It actually seems that a lot of the famous archmages of Forgotten Realms have made multiple spells of their own and either sold them commercially or taught them at universities to the point that they became a common spell found in most spellbooks.
I'd imagine the ones that become common use are just the really, really popular ones. Sure, Tim's Stinky Fireball was his personal favorite, and the fact it didn't use verbal components made it silent and deadly, but it didn't really sell well with the larger wizard crowd and so fell into obscurity.
Personally, I see this as a huge chance for roleplay. Imagine a player making a fun and powerful custom spell and selling the incantation for public use, only for a rival mage to whip out the same spell down the line. You could even have the evil wizard geeking out over meeting the creator of their favorite spell.
I wonder, what if you create a spell by modifying another spell... and then modify a created spell and create a new one, twice modified. And then a new one, thrice modified. It kinda works, but I'm not sure why.
Also, if Scribe Spell is a spell, what if you lose your spellbook and you don't have it memorized... Whoops.
You can’t modify a created spell. You can only modify an arcane spell, and once you create a spell it loses that tag.
If that is the intent they need to clarify the language, because that is an incredibly specific detail that is easy to miss. But beyond that it doesn't make any logical sense : why wouldn't a wizard be able to modify a spell they created? They created that spell, if anything it should be easier for them to modify.
It actually seems that a lot of the famous archmages of Forgotten Realms have made multiple spells of their own and either sold them commercially or taught them at universities to the point that they became a common spell found in most spellbooks.
I'd imagine the ones that become common use are just the really, really popular ones. Sure, Tim's Stinky Fireball was his personal favorite, and the fact it didn't use verbal components made it silent and deadly, but it didn't really sell well with the larger wizard crowd and so fell into obscurity.
Personally, I see this as a huge chance for roleplay. Imagine a player making a fun and powerful custom spell and selling the incantation for public use, only for a rival mage to whip out the same spell down the line. You could even have the evil wizard geeking out over meeting the creator of their favorite spell.
Modify spell and thus create spell doesn’t allow you to make anything near as unique as the things you just named. One lets you place super powered metamagics on your spells and the other let’s you make that permanent.
I wonder, what if you create a spell by modifying another spell... and then modify a created spell and create a new one, twice modified. And then a new one, thrice modified. It kinda works, but I'm not sure why.
Also, if Scribe Spell is a spell, what if you lose your spellbook and you don't have it memorized... Whoops.
You can’t modify a created spell. You can only modify an arcane spell, and once you create a spell it loses that tag.
If that is the intent they need to clarify the language, because that is an incredibly specific detail that is easy to miss. But beyond that it doesn't make any logical sense : why wouldn't a wizard be able to modify a spell they created? They created that spell, if anything it should be easier for them to modify.
I’m fairness, the game is full of specific details that are easy to miss. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people on the boards say something like , wow, I’ve been doing that wrong for years.
You can actually modify a spell in multiple ways, you just need to upcast the modify spell to do it.
I generally like the idea of being able to modify spells. But this 3-step process is pretty janky. I guess the idea is for it to be possible, but not easy.
Modify spell and thus create spell doesn’t allow you to make anything near as unique as the things you just named. One lets you place super powered metamagics on your spells and the other let’s you make that permanent.
Yes, because it has to be limited within the framework of a game. It'd be awesome if there was a way to create any kind of custom spell you could imagine, but it'd also be an absolute nightmare to try and balance.
I imagine the lore explanation would be that it takes years to develop a brand new spell with effects never before seen, meanwhile modifying an existing spell to have unique effects can be done in a much shorter span of time.
That said, Mordekainen's Magnificient Mansion seems like a much more powerful and detailed version of Leomund's Tiny Hut. Snilloc's Snowball Storm is a pretty standard ice evocation spell with a snowball theme to it. Jim's Magic Missile is literally just a tweaked Magic Missile, exactly the kind of spell you can create with Create Spell.
I wonder, what if you create a spell by modifying another spell... and then modify a created spell and create a new one, twice modified. And then a new one, thrice modified. It kinda works, but I'm not sure why.
Also, if Scribe Spell is a spell, what if you lose your spellbook and you don't have it memorized... Whoops.
You can’t modify a created spell. You can only modify an arcane spell, and once you create a spell it loses that tag.
If that is the intent they need to clarify the language, because that is an incredibly specific detail that is easy to miss. But beyond that it doesn't make any logical sense : why wouldn't a wizard be able to modify a spell they created? They created that spell, if anything it should be easier for them to modify.
yesterday i wanted to determine airborne allergy risk in my area. there are a few existing spells and rituals. like most mages of my caliber might, i cast a google summons. it was quickly determined that i could modify this summons to focus on ragweed. after a little more research (and some gold) i determined it could be further modified in several ways including by setting an alexa routine or downloading an app.
mad with power, i went looking for a way to add a widget to my spellcasting focus. surely there's a way to modify my own spell further! alas, yes and no: i could spend months learning to program my own app and widget or... i could not. so, here i am fully capable of creating a new spell to improve upon earlier spells and modifications but wholely unwilling to break character from this lawful lazy alignment.
your more motivated evoker might feel differently.
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The problem I see with Create Spell is largely worldbuilding. I mean, why wouldn't some rich-ass archmage have made better versions of every spell out there and sold them around?
Because they don’t want to share.
Because if they’re already rich, why go to the bother of selling things. They’re trying to slide into mystra’s dms, not run a small business
Because changing fireball into lightning ball is small potatoes, any wizard of sufficient level can do that on their own. That’s a tweak, not a new spell. The arch wizard is trying to make something completely new, not just something derivative. Or maybe they’re spending all their time trying to be a lich.
So nobody in the Entire History of Forever and Ever has decided to share something they made with Create Spell? That just... doesn't make sense.
It's a Wizard spell, not an Arcane spell, so on the mechanical side of things no one else can scribe it. Lore-wise, you can explain it that Create Spell involves tweaking an existing spell to work with the wizard's own magical quirks and variations, so no one else can get the same results from the process.
The problem I see with Create Spell is largely worldbuilding. I mean, why wouldn't some rich-ass archmage have made better versions of every spell out there and sold them around?
Because they don’t want to share.
Because if they’re already rich, why go to the bother of selling things. They’re trying to slide into mystra’s dms, not run a small business
Because changing fireball into lightning ball is small potatoes, any wizard of sufficient level can do that on their own. That’s a tweak, not a new spell. The arch wizard is trying to make something completely new, not just something derivative. Or maybe they’re spending all their time trying to be a lich.
So nobody in the Entire History of Forever and Ever has decided to share something they made with Create Spell? That just... doesn't make sense.
It's a Wizard spell, not an Arcane spell, so on the mechanical side of things no one else can scribe it. Lore-wise, you can explain it that Create Spell involves tweaking an existing spell to work with the wizard's own magical quirks and variations, so no one else can get the same results from the process.
You are correct. That kinda takes some of the oomph out of "creating" a spell, though.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I wonder, what if you create a spell by modifying another spell... and then modify a created spell and create a new one, twice modified. And then a new one, thrice modified. It kinda works, but I'm not sure why.
Also, if Scribe Spell is a spell, what if you lose your spellbook and you don't have it memorized... Whoops.
You can’t modify a created spell. You can only modify an arcane spell, and once you create a spell it loses that tag.
If that is the intent they need to clarify the language, because that is an incredibly specific detail that is easy to miss. But beyond that it doesn't make any logical sense : why wouldn't a wizard be able to modify a spell they created? They created that spell, if anything it should be easier for them to modify.
yesterday i wanted to determine airborne allergy risk in my area. there are a few existing spells and rituals. like most mages of my caliber might, i cast a google summons. it was quickly determined that i could modify this summons to focus on ragweed. after a little more research (and some gold) i determined it could be further modified in several ways including by setting an alexa routine or downloading an app.
mad with power, i went looking for a way to add a widget to my spellcasting focus. surely there's a way to modify my own spell further! alas, yes and no: i could spend months learning to program my own app and widget or... i could not. so, here i am fully capable of creating a new spell to improve upon earlier spells and modifications but wholely unwilling to break character from this lawful lazy alignment.
your more motivated evoker might feel differently.
Allergies are rough this year near me, never been this affected by them.
4+2*(Wizard level) is a lot of spells. This is without any class features other than spellcasting itself, no cantrips and for free. At level 3 you have 10 spells already. So yeah, the flavour of knowing many spells? More than any other class? Wizards have it by default. Casting unprepared ritual spells only boosts that. None of this is changed in the new rules, unless I missed something.
It's not that many when compared to classes like Druid or Cleric.
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The problem I see with Create Spell is largely worldbuilding. I mean, why wouldn't some rich-ass archmage have made better versions of every spell out there and sold them around?
Because they don’t want to share.
Because if they’re already rich, why go to the bother of selling things. They’re trying to slide into mystra’s dms, not run a small business
Because changing fireball into lightning ball is small potatoes, any wizard of sufficient level can do that on their own. That’s a tweak, not a new spell. The arch wizard is trying to make something completely new, not just something derivative. Or maybe they’re spending all their time trying to be a lich.
So nobody in the Entire History of Forever and Ever has decided to share something they made with Create Spell? That just... doesn't make sense.
It's a Wizard spell, not an Arcane spell, so on the mechanical side of things no one else can scribe it. Lore-wise, you can explain it that Create Spell involves tweaking an existing spell to work with the wizard's own magical quirks and variations, so no one else can get the same results from the process.
You are correct. That kinda takes some of the oomph out of "creating" a spell, though.
Little bit, but it's not an uncommon explanation in magic settings where every mage has their own "style" to their magic. To expand on the lore, could just say that it takes a lot more fine-tuning to create a universally usable spell/modification, to the tune of a few years and a commensurate gold. Doable, but even a typical archmage might not be able to afford secluding themselves for that long simply to see if they can make something worth attempting to sell; keep in mind 1000 gp is already something like two to three years of living expenses for a wealthy merchant or minor noble, and that's per level simply to Create a personal spell. It's not so much that it's "impossible" as it's "outside the scope of a player's in-game opportunities".
Sorry, haven't read this whole thread so sorry if it has been brought up.
Some concerns I've heard about Create Spell is that once created it's out for other wizards to add to their spellbooks.
RAW, Create Spell gives a spell the Wizard tag not Arcane. And both the Spellbook description and Scribe Spell description both say you can add Arcane spells. This means you cannot Create a spell, then make a scroll or let another Wizard borrow your spellbook for them to copy. Or am I reading this wrong?
Nevermind. Just saw this was already discussed. :(
Scribe spell is only a spell so they don’t have to have a separate section on how to add spells to your spellbook.
There's actually another reason, because it being a magic spell explains how it can infinitely add paper to a wizard's book, and save them from the 3.5 problem of either needing to find a Blessed Book or toting an entire library around wherever they go.
Scribe spell is only a spell so they don’t have to have a separate section on how to add spells to your spellbook.
There's actually another reason, because it being a magic spell explains how it can infinitely add paper to a wizard's book, and save them from the 3.5 problem of either needing to find a Blessed Book or toting an entire library around wherever they go.
Also helps short circuit the kind of debates you got around stuff like Order of Scribes and an Emerald Pen that having something that produces endless ink means you get to just ignore the gp cost of scribing, since now it's under the material components rules.
There’s absolutely no guideline on how many spells can fit into standard spellbook, so making scribe spell a spell has no benefit with regards to adding infinite pages to a spellbook.
Scribe spell is only a spell so they don’t have to have a separate section on how to add spells to your spellbook.
There's actually another reason, because it being a magic spell explains how it can infinitely add paper to a wizard's book, and save them from the 3.5 problem of either needing to find a Blessed Book or toting an entire library around wherever they go.
Also helps short circuit the kind of debates you got around stuff like Order of Scribes and an Emerald Pen that having something that produces endless ink means you get to just ignore the gp cost of scribing, since now it's under the material components rules.
The PHB description of a "spell book" says it can be anything from many leather-bound books kept in an apartment that smells of rich mahogany to a haphazard collection of notes on loose scraps of paper, so those debates were mainly for people who like to have debates
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You can’t modify a created spell. You can only modify an arcane spell, and once you create a spell it loses that tag.
This might be a side note to this thread.
seeing the Evoker subclass we might get subclasses for each school gain and they will all have a version of Savant halving the cost of putting a spell of your chosen school into your spell book.
Should the Savant ability be changed to also apply to the cost of the Create Spell spell ?
as in a way it is a cost for putting a spell in your book
Yes, I stand corrected. You can only have 1 modified spell at a time.
For the people saying how the created spells are not running around in the world... Scribe Spell only scribes Arcane tag Spells, not Wizard tag spells (for now), so the Created Spells stay only with their creators, unless the DM wants to.
Given enough time and money (someone mentioned Liches), a wizard can have a lot of "Created Spells" on his spellbooks, and I understand that could be a problem since the created spells are strictly better than their original versions,... but its almost the same as it is now with known spells in 5e (Given enough time and money, you can have all spells in the PH in your spellbook, you dont use a third of that in a campaing, but you have them), and its unnecessary really. Create Spell is an interesting, though powerfull, ability that the DM has more control in its use than PCs, even if they go out of their way to get enough "time" and "money" (both aspects stricly managed by the DM, on most campaings normally).
"It's pretty flexible if you have the time to ritual cast it by scouting out and whatnot"
Yes, the key here is "if you have the time" the flexibility skyrockets, as always. Thats why I think Memorize spell si so good, I don't play wizards much, but there's always at least once (specially early to mid levels) that you don't have a particular utility/usefull spell prepared for that day, that could help or ease solving a particular puzzle/problem, and its a party decision to wait for an entire day (not all campaings can have that time constraint) or find another solution.
Maybe the wizard could choose to move their Arcane spells to the new book they found with the uber spell? So you could put a crazy spell into the world but they'd have to be keep the spell book forever to keep access to it? Maybe the books got a locater on it or its cursed in some way? But then later when they find another spell book with a custom spell they have to choose which one to keep? I mean there's some stuff there.
Although I do have to say, the whole 'spell book' mechanic has always been a little off for me. I mean, if I handed my level 1 wizard a smartphone spell book with every single Arcane spell preloaded into it, would my game break? Nope. Because the game isnt balanced in any way over what spells any specific caster has or even if there is one caster to begin with, and that includes any spells the player might create.
One note I feel I need to add though "trying to slide into Mystra's DMs" is just straight fire and I damn near spit taked my coffee when i read it.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Tenser's Floating Disc. Jim's Magic Missile. Snilloc's Snowball Storm. Fizban's Platinum Shield. Mordekainen's Magnificent Mansion.
It actually seems that a lot of the famous archmages of Forgotten Realms have made multiple spells of their own and either sold them commercially or taught them at universities to the point that they became a common spell found in most spellbooks.
I'd imagine the ones that become common use are just the really, really popular ones. Sure, Tim's Stinky Fireball was his personal favorite, and the fact it didn't use verbal components made it silent and deadly, but it didn't really sell well with the larger wizard crowd and so fell into obscurity.
Personally, I see this as a huge chance for roleplay. Imagine a player making a fun and powerful custom spell and selling the incantation for public use, only for a rival mage to whip out the same spell down the line. You could even have the evil wizard geeking out over meeting the creator of their favorite spell.
If that is the intent they need to clarify the language, because that is an incredibly specific detail that is easy to miss. But beyond that it doesn't make any logical sense : why wouldn't a wizard be able to modify a spell they created? They created that spell, if anything it should be easier for them to modify.
Modify spell and thus create spell doesn’t allow you to make anything near as unique as the things you just named. One lets you place super powered metamagics on your spells and the other let’s you make that permanent.
I’m fairness, the game is full of specific details that are easy to miss. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people on the boards say something like , wow, I’ve been doing that wrong for years.
You can actually modify a spell in multiple ways, you just need to upcast the modify spell to do it.
I generally like the idea of being able to modify spells. But this 3-step process is pretty janky. I guess the idea is for it to be possible, but not easy.
Yes, because it has to be limited within the framework of a game. It'd be awesome if there was a way to create any kind of custom spell you could imagine, but it'd also be an absolute nightmare to try and balance.
I imagine the lore explanation would be that it takes years to develop a brand new spell with effects never before seen, meanwhile modifying an existing spell to have unique effects can be done in a much shorter span of time.
That said, Mordekainen's Magnificient Mansion seems like a much more powerful and detailed version of Leomund's Tiny Hut. Snilloc's Snowball Storm is a pretty standard ice evocation spell with a snowball theme to it. Jim's Magic Missile is literally just a tweaked Magic Missile, exactly the kind of spell you can create with Create Spell.
yesterday i wanted to determine airborne allergy risk in my area. there are a few existing spells and rituals. like most mages of my caliber might, i cast a google summons. it was quickly determined that i could modify this summons to focus on ragweed. after a little more research (and some gold) i determined it could be further modified in several ways including by setting an alexa routine or downloading an app.
mad with power, i went looking for a way to add a widget to my spellcasting focus. surely there's a way to modify my own spell further! alas, yes and no: i could spend months learning to program my own app and widget or... i could not. so, here i am fully capable of creating a new spell to improve upon earlier spells and modifications but wholely unwilling to break character from this lawful lazy alignment.
your more motivated evoker might feel differently.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
It's a Wizard spell, not an Arcane spell, so on the mechanical side of things no one else can scribe it. Lore-wise, you can explain it that Create Spell involves tweaking an existing spell to work with the wizard's own magical quirks and variations, so no one else can get the same results from the process.
You are correct. That kinda takes some of the oomph out of "creating" a spell, though.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Allergies are rough this year near me, never been this affected by them.
It's not that many when compared to classes like Druid or Cleric.
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Little bit, but it's not an uncommon explanation in magic settings where every mage has their own "style" to their magic. To expand on the lore, could just say that it takes a lot more fine-tuning to create a universally usable spell/modification, to the tune of a few years and a commensurate gold. Doable, but even a typical archmage might not be able to afford secluding themselves for that long simply to see if they can make something worth attempting to sell; keep in mind 1000 gp is already something like two to three years of living expenses for a wealthy merchant or minor noble, and that's per level simply to Create a personal spell. It's not so much that it's "impossible" as it's "outside the scope of a player's in-game opportunities".
Sorry, haven't read this whole thread so sorry if it has been brought up.Some concerns I've heard about Create Spell is that once created it's out for other wizards to add to their spellbooks.RAW, Create Spell gives a spell the Wizard tag not Arcane. And both the Spellbook description and Scribe Spell description both say you can add Arcane spells. This means you cannot Create a spell, then make a scroll or let another Wizard borrow your spellbook for them to copy. Or am I reading this wrong?Nevermind. Just saw this was already discussed. :(
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There's actually another reason, because it being a magic spell explains how it can infinitely add paper to a wizard's book, and save them from the 3.5 problem of either needing to find a Blessed Book or toting an entire library around wherever they go.
Also helps short circuit the kind of debates you got around stuff like Order of Scribes and an Emerald Pen that having something that produces endless ink means you get to just ignore the gp cost of scribing, since now it's under the material components rules.
There’s absolutely no guideline on how many spells can fit into standard spellbook, so making scribe spell a spell has no benefit with regards to adding infinite pages to a spellbook.
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The PHB description of a "spell book" says it can be anything from many leather-bound books kept in an apartment that smells of rich mahogany to a haphazard collection of notes on loose scraps of paper, so those debates were mainly for people who like to have debates
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)