TLDR: The gold cost of Scribe Spell and Create Spell is not good design. See suggested alternative below.
Wizards are the only class rely on a robust personal economy to use their class features.
Access to relatively unlimited gold or specific items of high gold value are not an assumption that can be made at every table or in every adventure.
A player should not have to rely on the DM to specifically feed them excess gold in order to use their class features.
If a Wizard is not bottle-fed gold and high-value arcane foci, they will either just feel bad about nothing being able to use their features or become the greediest player at the table.
A player should not have to think about exploiting some infinite gold glitch or using Programmed Illusion to sell NFTs just to use their class features.
The gold cost to copy new spells to a spellbook has always been the worst part about playing a Wizard, and now they have the additional cost of 1000g per spell level to use Create Spell. Wizards are no longer differentiated by having access to some of the more powerful spells in the game since they're all shared on the Arcane spell list now. The ability to learn more spells than any other caster (not even prepare, just learn) and the ability to permanently modify those spells are the main things that set them apart from other casters.
I understand wanting a way to govern how often a player can use a particular class feature, but gold isn't it. When it comes to spell scribing, time spent is enough. Many published adventures and campaigns lack significant downtime. 1-2 hours per spell level to Scribe a new spell (plus an additional hour if you're using Create Spell) is a lot to ask. While the rest of the party is in the tavern bar getting to role play freely, the Wizard is in their room hard at work transferring spells they found in the dungeon to their spellbook before the next adventuring day. A particularly voracious Wizard will be the one to intentionally take levels of exhaustion to work through a long rest.
My suggestion would be this:
Remove the gold cost from Scribe Spell and Create Spell entirely.
Add a line to Create Spell that says "When this spell successfully creates a new spell, you can't cast this spell again for 1d4+1 days." Similar to Wish or Divine Intervention.
If you want there to be a material cost for Create Spell, have it require the material components for the spell be present (if any) to prove that the Wizard is capable of casting it in the moment.
Better suggestion from this thread:
Remove the gold cost of these spells.
Limit the number of custom Create Spells a Wizard can have at any one time similar to Artificer Infusions.
I don't mind high costs on Create Spell, although I question why it's an actual spell rather than just rules for research costs
Scribe Spell being a spell itself is flat nonsense that breaks down logically the moment you start thinking about how or why anyone could have invented that spell in the first place. There's a whole chicken-or-egg thing there they didn't consider at all
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
At most tables, once the Wiz’s gold needs get high enough to be an issue, the party has plenty and very little or nothing else to spend it on. I’ve sat at tables without a Wiz and by mid-high Tier-2 the party stopped even bothering to track gp because they were practically swimming in it Scrooge MacDuck style and had nothing to do with it other than fill a building. 🤷♂️
I don't mind high costs on Create Spell, although I question why it's an actual spell rather than just rules for research costs
Scribe Spell being a spell itself is flat nonsense that breaks down logically the moment you start thinking about how or why anyone could have invented that spell in the first place. There's a whole chicken-or-egg thing there they didn't consider at all
Every other class in the game can use all of their class features even if they only had their starting equipment the whole time. Wizards can't. Wizards are now more than ever at the mercy of the DM as to when they can and can't afford to use these features.
Mechanically I understand the need for cost management and gold sinks, but when it comes to how it actually unfolds in the game and how the constant search for more gold and another foci worth thousands of gold can impact the flow of the story and the other players at the table ... it just falls apart.
I don't mind high costs on Create Spell, although I question why it's an actual spell rather than just rules for research costs
Scribe Spell being a spell itself is flat nonsense that breaks down logically the moment you start thinking about how or why anyone could have invented that spell in the first place. There's a whole chicken-or-egg thing there they didn't consider at all
Every other class in the game can use all of their class features even if they only had their starting equipment the whole time. Wizards can't. Wizards are now more than ever at the mercy of the DM as to when they can and can't afford to use these features.
Mechanically I understand the need for cost management and gold sinks, but when it comes to how it actually unfolds in the game and how the constant search for more gold and another foci worth thousands of gold can impact the flow of the story and the other players at the table ... it just falls apart.
The large cost is there to help balance out the feature. If a wizard was free to create new spells with no cost then what you end up with is wizards all walking around with a better version of subtle spell, casting spells that damage cannot break concentration on, at a range that keeps them out of reach of every single mob, and with a pool of spells that cannot be counterspelled (including counterspell itself) because they eliminated every component needed.
The DM is the one that is creating the other wizards in your games, and they will definitely create wizards with fully upgraded spellbooks, both as villains and friendlies regardless of gold cost anyway.
A wizard player is also reliant on the DM handing out hundreds of free spells via spellbooks and scrolls to use their "I get hundreds of spells out of progression" class features.
If a DM is okay with their wizard copying down hundreds and hundreds of extra spells into their spellbook outside of progression? They'll make opportunities to do so. If a DM is not okay with this? Gold is not the way they'll prevent a wizard from copying down hundreds and hunreds of extra spells into their spellbook.
Why wizard players believe they're entitled to gaining hundreds and hundreds of extra free spells outside of normal class progression, I will never figure out. "Extra" spells are a bonus, not an entitlement.
There are only 337 wizard spells in the game, so the notion of acquiring hundreds of additional spells is exaggerated. The point is to prevent bonuses that may lead players to think they are essential to the class, while they are entirely dependent on the Dungeon Master.
These aren't spells you'll be casting every day, they're situational for when you come across a new spell or need to change the one spell at a time you can have modified. 9 times out of 10, you won't be casting these spells on a typical adventuring day.
The one you'll cast most frequently is (I forget the name) the one that lets you switch out prepared spells outside of a long rest, and even that one, you'll only have to cast when you're completely blind-sided on the kinds of encounters you'll have to face. Even in those cases however, whenever I prepare spells I always give myself a few for emergency combat or utility scenarios, so you'll really only need it if you're completely caught with your robe down.
At most tables, once the Wiz’s gold needs get high enough to be an issue, the party has plenty and very little or nothing else to spend it on. I’ve sat at tables without a Wiz and by mid-high Tier-2 the party stopped even bothering to track gp because they were practically swimming in it Scrooge MacDuck style and had nothing to do with it other than fill a building. 🤷♂️
I suppose every table is different. At my table, the characters are Tier 4 and still struggle. Of course, they travel the multiverse and things get expensive out there! LOL
4+2*(Wizard level) is a lot of spells. This is without any class features other than spellcasting itself, no cantrips and for free. At level 3 you have 10 spells already. So yeah, the flavour of knowing many spells? More than any other class? Wizards have it by default. Casting unprepared ritual spells only boosts that. None of this is changed in the new rules, unless I missed something.
Spells should only be given by the DM as a reward, so at the end of the day, if they're given, the DM should be the one making sure the Wizard only gets how much the DM wants them to get.
That's how it used to be. Now, with Create Spell, the Wizard can create multiple alteration of every spell they have, if they have enough gold. Usually, you'll have a lot of gold by the time this feature unlocks. Meanwhile, what will the Fighter do with all that gold? Getting +1 to AC can cost them 1500 gold (at least for now), and after that? Maybe they can stack on longswords, because walking with 9 swords make sense, only to make use of their numerous weapon masteries. Okay, so that's about 100 gold, and that's it. Nothing more to spend gold on. How about the Barbarian? Only ~4 weapons, probably no armour. So <100 gold and that's it.
In other words, while Wizards are perfectly fine without gold (and most people already believe they're stronger than martial classes at high levels), they get exponentially stronger the more gold is available. No other class can turn gold into power or versatility like that.
While I do not agree with your reasoning, tying a class feature to gold is indeed a problem. Instead, I believe it should be limited to a fixed number, that scales a little. Just like weapon mastery or Artificer's infusions. Limited to a small number, but at no cost.
4+2*(Wizard level) is a lot of spells. This is without any class features other than spellcasting itself, no cantrips and for free. At level 3 you have 10 spells already. So yeah, the flavour of knowing many spells? More than any other class? Wizards have it by default. Casting unprepared ritual spells only boosts that. None of this is changed in the new rules, unless I missed something.
Spells should only be given by the DM as a reward, so at the end of the day, if they're given, the DM should be the one making sure the Wizard only gets how much the DM wants them to get.
That's how it used to be. Now, with Create Spell, the Wizard can create multiple alteration of every spell they have, if they have enough gold. Usually, you'll have a lot of gold by the time this feature unlocks. Meanwhile, what will the Fighter do with all that gold? Getting +1 to AC can cost them 1500 gold (at least for now), and after that? Maybe they can stack on longswords, because walking with 9 swords make sense, only to make use of their numerous weapon masteries. Okay, so that's about 100 gold, and that's it. Nothing more to spend gold on. How about the Barbarian? Only ~4 weapons, probably no armour. So <100 gold and that's it.
In other words, while Wizards are perfectly fine without gold (and most people already believe they're stronger than martial classes at high levels), they get exponentially stronger the more gold is available. No other class can turn gold into power or versatility like that.
While I do not agree with your reasoning, tying a class feature to gold is indeed a problem. Instead, I believe it should be limited to a fixed number, that scales a little. Just like weapon mastery or Artificer's infusions. Limited to a small number, but at no cost.
That could work. Just add a 'spell mastery' column with the maximum number of altered spells to track the number of altered spells the wizard can create. By the end of their career maybe they get a half dozen custom spells.
A wizard player is also reliant on the DM handing out hundreds of free spells via spellbooks and scrolls to use their "I get hundreds of spells out of progression" class features.
If a DM is okay with their wizard copying down hundreds and hundreds of extra spells into their spellbook outside of progression? They'll make opportunities to do so. If a DM is not okay with this? Gold is not the way they'll prevent a wizard from copying down hundreds and hunreds of extra spells into their spellbook.
Why wizard players believe they're entitled to gaining hundreds and hundreds of extra free spells outside of normal class progression, I will never figure out. "Extra" spells are a bonus, not an entitlement.
^ Adding to this, even if you stick purely with the free spells on level up and don't even use Modify or Create - you'll STILL be the most powerful spellcaster in the game, because you have the best list and can change your preparations on a long rest unlike Sorcerer. Adding in Create Spell and Scrolls only makes Wizard go up from there. They're doing fine.
Spells should only be given by the DM as a reward, so at the end of the day, if they're given, the DM should be the one making sure the Wizard only gets how much the DM wants them to get.
There are plenty of spell scrolls, spell books, and wizard enemies who would have spell books in published content that any party can just find as treasure. The DM could ultimately choice not to include it in the treasures, but at that point it's a spite play and I'd hope we wouldn't have that at our tables.
I also don't buy the arguments that Wizards shouldn't be allowed to expand their list of spells relatively freely. By default, Clerics and Druids have access to their whole spell list and this isn't considered a problem. I'm not saying DMs should just give Wizards every spell they want, but being able to expand there list of possible spells is a built-in, intentional class feature. I just think there should just be less hurdles to doing so. The hours per spell it takes to do so is cost enough.
While I do not agree with your reasoning, tying a class feature to gold is indeed a problem. Instead, I believe it should be limited to a fixed number, that scales a little. Just like weapon mastery or Artificer's infusions. Limited to a small number, but at no cost.
That's a fair compromise actually. Remove the gold cost, but limit the number of custom spells that a Wizard can have at any one time. Having a massive collection of customized spells would ultimately be unwieldly and since the UA states a spellbook can only hold 100 spells, Wizards would be walking around with a small library on their back.
I haven't played in too many games, or at high level in 5e... but I normally don't have enough gold for everything I would need (in the rare ocurrence where there is a bigger demand than PHB items and still), and you always need to have a backup because there's always some money to be expended story/campaing wise in travel, bribes, tolls, equipment, donations or whatever is necessary.
As a Wizard, at least in the only example I have, time and money both aren't enough (and well the money part to copy a spell scroll, i could have asked the party, specially because it was a party utility spell, but my wizard diverged in the downtime it got), and i actually owe some gold to another PC because I couln't cover my part on the traveling equipment we needed for that next leg. (that part we where on a very tight schedule and have never stopped since.... haven't continued that game to the next "downtime milestone")...
I agree they should just be class features, but the gold cost is a good way to "control" how many times you use "Create Spell", the amount i think, as everything, is a guide for the DM, not the player. (And a DM can just waive that easily if he wants to, for story reasons or whatnot). You still can have only 1 modified spell per Long Rest.
I you must nerf Create Spell, a better approach than adding NI arbitrary gold cost to it which won't do a thing at most tables past low levels, is to make the final product spell need a slot one higher than the spell you started with. But I wouldn't do that for the damage type and ritual modifications (not that increasing the slot would do anything to a ritual anyway.)
You still can have only 1 modified spell per Long Rest.
Create Spell creates a permanent copy of the modified spell in your spellbook. So if you have a particular modification of a particular spell you like to use, you can make it permanent using Create Spell then use Modify Spell again to modify a different spell for that day.
Wizards are the only class to have class features that aren't guaranteed to be usable the when you get them.
Create spell is way too powerfull on games that there is a lot money. So powerfull that I would considered it broken. I think if you create a spell using the "new" spell should be 1 level higher than the original spell, that way they could even decrease (a bit) the money cost without breaking the game.
What I would do is:
CREATE SPELL 5th-Level Transmutation Spell (Wizard) Casting Time: Reaction, in response to yourself casting Modify Spell Range: Self Component: V, S, M (an Arcane Focus, which the spell consumes, worth at least 750GP per level of the spell altered by Modify Spell) Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour Synthesizing your arcane knowledge and power, you strive to create a new spell. To succeed, you must concentrate for 1 hour and meditate on the spell you just altered with Modify Spell, otherwise this spell fails. If you succeed, you must start casting Scribe Spell within the next 10 minutes and add the altered spell to your spellbook. Once the spell is in your spellbook, it becomes one of your known spells, it becomes one level higher than the original spell, it gains the Wizard source tag rather than the Arcane tag, and it gains a name of your choice.
That way let's say you are level 10 wizard, with 2 level 5 spell slots. You could cast modify spell as level 5 on your Fireball to change the damage type to Thunder and make it target only enemies. After you finish it, you cast create spell to create Thunder Ball of Security (or whatever) for 2250 gp and it would be a level 4 spell instead of level 3 originally. Is it an amazing level 4 spell? still is, but if that was a level 3 spell it would be hands-down the best level 3 spell in the whole game. And that is not even the best spell you could create, it is just something I quickly did, i'm sure there is things waaaaay more broken.
And there are other examples, that would broken the game.
The gold cost on copying spells is there because wizards get access to the biggest and most versatile spell list, outside of what they get for free, two spells every level is already more than other arcane spellcasters ever get to know. Gold is the price for unmatched versatility.
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TLDR: The gold cost of Scribe Spell and Create Spell is not good design. See suggested alternative below.
The gold cost to copy new spells to a spellbook has always been the worst part about playing a Wizard, and now they have the additional cost of 1000g per spell level to use Create Spell. Wizards are no longer differentiated by having access to some of the more powerful spells in the game since they're all shared on the Arcane spell list now. The ability to learn more spells than any other caster (not even prepare, just learn) and the ability to permanently modify those spells are the main things that set them apart from other casters.
I understand wanting a way to govern how often a player can use a particular class feature, but gold isn't it. When it comes to spell scribing, time spent is enough. Many published adventures and campaigns lack significant downtime. 1-2 hours per spell level to Scribe a new spell (plus an additional hour if you're using Create Spell) is a lot to ask. While the rest of the party is in the tavern bar getting to role play freely, the Wizard is in their room hard at work transferring spells they found in the dungeon to their spellbook before the next adventuring day. A particularly voracious Wizard will be the one to intentionally take levels of exhaustion to work through a long rest.
My suggestion would be this:
Remove the gold cost from Scribe Spell and Create Spell entirely.Add a line to Create Spell that says "When this spell successfully creates a new spell, you can't cast this spell again for 1d4+1 days." Similar to Wish or Divine Intervention.Better suggestion from this thread:
I don't mind high costs on Create Spell, although I question why it's an actual spell rather than just rules for research costs
Scribe Spell being a spell itself is flat nonsense that breaks down logically the moment you start thinking about how or why anyone could have invented that spell in the first place. There's a whole chicken-or-egg thing there they didn't consider at all
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
At most tables, once the Wiz’s gold needs get high enough to be an issue, the party has plenty and very little or nothing else to spend it on. I’ve sat at tables without a Wiz and by mid-high Tier-2 the party stopped even bothering to track gp because they were practically swimming in it Scrooge MacDuck style and had nothing to do with it other than fill a building. 🤷♂️
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Every other class in the game can use all of their class features even if they only had their starting equipment the whole time. Wizards can't. Wizards are now more than ever at the mercy of the DM as to when they can and can't afford to use these features.
Mechanically I understand the need for cost management and gold sinks, but when it comes to how it actually unfolds in the game and how the constant search for more gold and another foci worth thousands of gold can impact the flow of the story and the other players at the table ... it just falls apart.
The large cost is there to help balance out the feature. If a wizard was free to create new spells with no cost then what you end up with is wizards all walking around with a better version of subtle spell, casting spells that damage cannot break concentration on, at a range that keeps them out of reach of every single mob, and with a pool of spells that cannot be counterspelled (including counterspell itself) because they eliminated every component needed.
The DM is the one that is creating the other wizards in your games, and they will definitely create wizards with fully upgraded spellbooks, both as villains and friendlies regardless of gold cost anyway.
A wizard player is also reliant on the DM handing out hundreds of free spells via spellbooks and scrolls to use their "I get hundreds of spells out of progression" class features.
If a DM is okay with their wizard copying down hundreds and hundreds of extra spells into their spellbook outside of progression? They'll make opportunities to do so. If a DM is not okay with this? Gold is not the way they'll prevent a wizard from copying down hundreds and hunreds of extra spells into their spellbook.
Why wizard players believe they're entitled to gaining hundreds and hundreds of extra free spells outside of normal class progression, I will never figure out. "Extra" spells are a bonus, not an entitlement.
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There are only 337 wizard spells in the game, so the notion of acquiring hundreds of additional spells is exaggerated. The point is to prevent bonuses that may lead players to think they are essential to the class, while they are entirely dependent on the Dungeon Master.
These aren't spells you'll be casting every day, they're situational for when you come across a new spell or need to change the one spell at a time you can have modified. 9 times out of 10, you won't be casting these spells on a typical adventuring day.
The one you'll cast most frequently is (I forget the name) the one that lets you switch out prepared spells outside of a long rest, and even that one, you'll only have to cast when you're completely blind-sided on the kinds of encounters you'll have to face. Even in those cases however, whenever I prepare spells I always give myself a few for emergency combat or utility scenarios, so you'll really only need it if you're completely caught with your robe down.
I suppose every table is different. At my table, the characters are Tier 4 and still struggle. Of course, they travel the multiverse and things get expensive out there! LOL
I love the UA as is.
4+2*(Wizard level) is a lot of spells. This is without any class features other than spellcasting itself, no cantrips and for free. At level 3 you have 10 spells already. So yeah, the flavour of knowing many spells? More than any other class? Wizards have it by default. Casting unprepared ritual spells only boosts that. None of this is changed in the new rules, unless I missed something.
Spells should only be given by the DM as a reward, so at the end of the day, if they're given, the DM should be the one making sure the Wizard only gets how much the DM wants them to get.
That's how it used to be. Now, with Create Spell, the Wizard can create multiple alteration of every spell they have, if they have enough gold. Usually, you'll have a lot of gold by the time this feature unlocks. Meanwhile, what will the Fighter do with all that gold? Getting +1 to AC can cost them 1500 gold (at least for now), and after that? Maybe they can stack on longswords, because walking with 9 swords make sense, only to make use of their numerous weapon masteries. Okay, so that's about 100 gold, and that's it. Nothing more to spend gold on. How about the Barbarian? Only ~4 weapons, probably no armour. So <100 gold and that's it.
In other words, while Wizards are perfectly fine without gold (and most people already believe they're stronger than martial classes at high levels), they get exponentially stronger the more gold is available. No other class can turn gold into power or versatility like that.
While I do not agree with your reasoning, tying a class feature to gold is indeed a problem. Instead, I believe it should be limited to a fixed number, that scales a little. Just like weapon mastery or Artificer's infusions. Limited to a small number, but at no cost.
Varielky
That could work. Just add a 'spell mastery' column with the maximum number of altered spells to track the number of altered spells the wizard can create. By the end of their career maybe they get a half dozen custom spells.
^ Adding to this, even if you stick purely with the free spells on level up and don't even use Modify or Create - you'll STILL be the most powerful spellcaster in the game, because you have the best list and can change your preparations on a long rest unlike Sorcerer. Adding in Create Spell and Scrolls only makes Wizard go up from there. They're doing fine.
There are plenty of spell scrolls, spell books, and wizard enemies who would have spell books in published content that any party can just find as treasure. The DM could ultimately choice not to include it in the treasures, but at that point it's a spite play and I'd hope we wouldn't have that at our tables.
I also don't buy the arguments that Wizards shouldn't be allowed to expand their list of spells relatively freely. By default, Clerics and Druids have access to their whole spell list and this isn't considered a problem. I'm not saying DMs should just give Wizards every spell they want, but being able to expand there list of possible spells is a built-in, intentional class feature. I just think there should just be less hurdles to doing so. The hours per spell it takes to do so is cost enough.
That's a fair compromise actually. Remove the gold cost, but limit the number of custom spells that a Wizard can have at any one time. Having a massive collection of customized spells would ultimately be unwieldly and since the UA states a spellbook can only hold 100 spells, Wizards would be walking around with a small library on their back.
I haven't played in too many games, or at high level in 5e... but I normally don't have enough gold for everything I would need (in the rare ocurrence where there is a bigger demand than PHB items and still), and you always need to have a backup because there's always some money to be expended story/campaing wise in travel, bribes, tolls, equipment, donations or whatever is necessary.
As a Wizard, at least in the only example I have, time and money both aren't enough (and well the money part to copy a spell scroll, i could have asked the party, specially because it was a party utility spell, but my wizard diverged in the downtime it got), and i actually owe some gold to another PC because I couln't cover my part on the traveling equipment we needed for that next leg. (that part we where on a very tight schedule and have never stopped since.... haven't continued that game to the next "downtime milestone")...
I agree they should just be class features, but the gold cost is a good way to "control" how many times you use "Create Spell", the amount i think, as everything, is a guide for the DM, not the player. (And a DM can just waive that easily if he wants to, for story reasons or whatnot). You still can have only 1 modified spell per Long Rest.
The ability is far too good, it could cost 50x the current and I'd be fine with that change since the ability is far too good.
Hey add a spell research system into the game, let all casters partake I'm fine with that. But wizards did not need this boost.
I you must nerf Create Spell, a better approach than adding NI arbitrary gold cost to it which won't do a thing at most tables past low levels, is to make the final product spell need a slot one higher than the spell you started with. But I wouldn't do that for the damage type and ritual modifications (not that increasing the slot would do anything to a ritual anyway.)
Create Spell creates a permanent copy of the modified spell in your spellbook. So if you have a particular modification of a particular spell you like to use, you can make it permanent using Create Spell then use Modify Spell again to modify a different spell for that day.
Wizards are the only class to have class features that aren't guaranteed to be usable the when you get them.
Create spell is way too powerfull on games that there is a lot money. So powerfull that I would considered it broken. I think if you create a spell using the "new" spell should be 1 level higher than the original spell, that way they could even decrease (a bit) the money cost without breaking the game.
What I would do is:
That way let's say you are level 10 wizard, with 2 level 5 spell slots. You could cast modify spell as level 5 on your Fireball to change the damage type to Thunder and make it target only enemies. After you finish it, you cast create spell to create Thunder Ball of Security (or whatever) for 2250 gp and it would be a level 4 spell instead of level 3 originally. Is it an amazing level 4 spell? still is, but if that was a level 3 spell it would be hands-down the best level 3 spell in the whole game. And that is not even the best spell you could create, it is just something I quickly did, i'm sure there is things waaaaay more broken.
And there are other examples, that would broken the game.
The gold cost on copying spells is there because wizards get access to the biggest and most versatile spell list, outside of what they get for free, two spells every level is already more than other arcane spellcasters ever get to know. Gold is the price for unmatched versatility.