I sorry, but what is the point of going full Mystic Arcanum then if you’re clearly still a subpar caster? Because you can go Pact of the Blade and be a worse Paladin/Ranger in combat while doing it? Bladesinger says hello… Swords Bard says hello…
There’s no versatility here because you are either or. You can spend 7 Invocations to keep up with spellprogression (but lose out on spellslots) and lose all your versatility while getting what? Medium Armor and a D8 for HP? Meanwhile Sorcerers have Metamagic and Wizards have a ginormous spellbook and the possibility to reinvent spells. It’s an illusion of choice.
If you truly think access to 9th level spells makes you a "subpar caster" then we'll just have to stop here.
Also, you only need to spend 4 invocations to keep up with spell progression, not 7.
I don't care about level 20 as much as I care about progression, because most games never get to level 20 anyway. So, if that's how you measure balance we're not even speaking the same language.
5th Level Sorcerer:
Cantrips: 5
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 2
5th Level Warlock:
Cantrips: 3
1st: 4
2nd: 2
3rd: 0 (+1)
If I spend an Invocation on Mystic Arcanum I can get one 3rd level spell. It costs me a class feature to keep up with spellprogression, but I still have fewer spellslots. On top of this the Sorcerer got metamagic.
9th Level Sorcerer:
Cantrips: 5
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 3
4th: 3
5th: 1
9th Level Warlock:
Cantrips: 5
1st: 4
2nd: 3
3rd: 2 (+1)
4th: 0 (+1)
5th: 0 (+1)
To keep up with progression I need to spend two Invocations to get one 4th and one 5th level spell. To even compete with amount of spellslots I need to use three Invocation, but I'd still be behind. My flexibility is spent on keeping up.
Warlocks were unique with their Pact Magic, now they're just half-caster Eldritch Blast batteries that are worse in melee than Paladins and Rangers and worse at support and utility than Artificers. They're are kinda meh.
So trade out low level versatility for higher level spells? Invocations was the way Warlocks fleshed out their spellcasting to supplement their Pact slots. If they are going to have Mystic Arcanum as Invocations then, yes, we need substantially more invocations to flesh them out.
You trade them when you get spells of that level natively, it's not hard. You'll have plenty left over for non-MA stuff.
Your argument regarding Multiclassing was that Pact Magic slots don’t stack with Spell Slots. My rebuttal was that that is more of an argument for keeping Pact Magic than it is for getting rid of it because it leads to more interesting multiclass options.
You argued that having them be a half-caster and having Pact Magic and Mystic Arcana was three separate things to track. My rebuttal was to simply not make them half-casters at all, and then it’s only two things to track, Pact Magic and Mystic Arcana. And I cited all of the Fighter features, not just Action Surge, in addition to the Eldritch Knight’s half-caster progression, and when all combined then no, Pact Magic + Mystic Arcana is not any more difficult to track. (You left out more than half of my rebuttal, be accurate.)
As for your argument about Pact Magic being a short rest feature…. My rebuttal was to make Pact Magic a long rest feature. That solves that. (As to my statement about not caring about Crawford, that was in regards to his opinions, which are irrelevant to the discussion we’re having.)
You forgot one. You also argued once that Pact Magic doesn’t give enough slots to satisfy players. My rebuttal to that one was to simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots.
So, now that I have (yet again) effectively rebutted all of your arguments, I’ll (yet again) ask you to either come up with something new, or stop arguing against me.
1) "More interesting" is an opinion, not an argument. I don't find vestigial slots that progress with nothing except Warlock levels to be more interesting than casting that can be combined with the casting of other classes.
2 -4) This introduces further problems. Keep the number of autoscaling pact slots where they are, i.e. too few (especially with LR recovery) and we're right back where we started with Warlock dissatisfaction as they get to do nothing but cantrip spam after those slots are used, or worse, even before that because they're saving their nukes for a rainy day. Give them more, and they get unparalleled nova potential in Tiers 1 and 2, as they can drop 3-4 max level spell slots in a single encounter while the actual full casters are stuck with two at most. Proper spellcasting doesn't have to worry about threading that needle.
I will admit that my dislike of the new Warlock is probably more... emotional rather than rational. Mathematically, the New Warlock is probably more powerful with less downsides. But the Warlock was just so unique and different from all the other classes... it felt less like you were a traditional spellcaster and more like you were a unique class with magical abilities that function as spells, but feel different and unique. I think I'd be fine if they went more that direction... Made Warlock feel even less like the other classes to give them their own unique balancing system. But making them just feel like half-casters where the other half is uh... also spellcaster, just kind of makes them feel... bland.
I think the funny thing is, if this was how Warlock was already created in the game, and the original 5e version was proposed as the "fix", I would probably hate it. "You mean you're taking away most of my spell slots and forcing me to take a short rest just to keep up with everyone else in my party?"
Well, the other half is also spellcaster if you want it to be. Or you can make it an old-school Swordmage/Hexblade (arcane paladin) and lean more into the martial and skill aspects with stuff like LOFO and Devils Sight + Darkness. Caster is the emphasis here in core but we'll likely get more invocations along these lines via splat.
When half is crap and the other part is crap it doesn't somehow become good.
What are you talking about? One D&D hexblade is an AC tank (Blur / Mirror Image + Shield + medium armour), with decent melee (if Pact of the Blade) + ranged damage (1d10+5 at range is the best any character can do with up cast Hex out doing Hunter's Mark for damage) plus decent utility as well.
Consider: 5th level
Sword + Board Paladin: AC 18+2 = 20, 1d8+7 on a hit + 2d8 1/turn for a 1st level spell slot = 20.5 * 0.65 DPR = 13 DPR Blade Warlock : AC 17 +2 = 19 + 5 = 24, 1d8+5 on a hit + 2d6 1/turn = 11 DPR
So spending 1 spell per round, Bladelock has +4 AC vs -2 DPR over a sword & board paladin....
For two fights tops at that level given how crap 1/2 caster progression is and all your spells are going just to get your defense up. Meanwhile the paladin is spending their spells on beating the living crap out of the enemies as their base defense is solid, or if they want shield of faith on themselves for a 22 AC for 10 minutes And then you are just a crap fighter with a invocation trick or two while the paladin will unless they are going crazy on smites continue to have options and in a couple levels be providing one of the best features in the game.
LOL That was with them using the same number of slots. You can't say Warlock will run out of slots faster than Paladin b/c they spend 1/round on defense and have longer-term damage buff from Hex whereas Paladin is spending 1/round on offense while having longer-term defense buff in Shield of Faith (which is only 10mins vs 1+ hours for Hex).
PS, the Aura of Protection is so overrated. Consider the One D&D version of Resistance (a cantrip available at level 1) provides on average 2.5 bonus to a save in the same radius, while most Paladin AoP are a +2 to +3. If everyone in the party takes Magic Initiate to get Resistance as their level 1 feat, the party as a whole will be better protected from that than from the Paladin's Aura when they get it at 7th level.
Resistance is single target and uses a reaction. Aura of Protection is permanent and CAN scale to +5. It's not even in the same ballpark.
Your argument regarding Multiclassing was that Pact Magic slots don’t stack with Spell Slots. My rebuttal was that that is more of an argument for keeping Pact Magic than it is for getting rid of it because it leads to more interesting multiclass options.
You argued that having them be a half-caster and having Pact Magic and Mystic Arcana was three separate things to track. My rebuttal was to simply not make them half-casters at all, and then it’s only two things to track, Pact Magic and Mystic Arcana. And I cited all of the Fighter features, not just Action Surge, in addition to the Eldritch Knight’s half-caster progression, and when all combined then no, Pact Magic + Mystic Arcana is not any more difficult to track. (You left out more than half of my rebuttal, be accurate.)
As for your argument about Pact Magic being a short rest feature…. My rebuttal was to make Pact Magic a long rest feature. That solves that. (As to my statement about not caring about Crawford, that was in regards to his opinions, which are irrelevant to the discussion we’re having.)
You forgot one. You also argued once that Pact Magic doesn’t give enough slots to satisfy players. My rebuttal to that one was to simply increase the number of Pact Magic slots.
So, now that I have (yet again) effectively rebutted all of your arguments, I’ll (yet again) ask you to either come up with something new, or stop arguing against me.
1) "More interesting" is an opinion, not an argument. I don't find vestigial slots that progress with nothing except Warlock levels to be more interesting than casting that can be combined with the casting of other classes.
2 -4) This introduces further problems. Keep the number of autoscaling pact slots where they are, i.e. too few (especially with LR recovery) and we're right back where we started with Warlock dissatisfaction as they get to do nothing but cantrip spam after those slots are used, or worse, even before that because they're saving their nukes for a rainy day. Give them more, and they get unparalleled nova potential in Tiers 1 and 2, as they can drop 3-4 max level spell slots in a single encounter while the actual full casters are stuck with two at most. Proper spellcasting doesn't have to worry about threading that needle.
So (yet again) you've rebutted nothing at all.
1) If it being more interesting is an an opinion and not an argument, then it being more interesting the other way is also purely an opinion and not an argument. Therefore your statements regarding the issue are just as invalid as mine. Therefore we can cross that all right off the list and drop that line of discussion altogether.
2-4) That’s why it’s important to find the right balance. To give them just enough Pact Magic slots at lower levels so as to not be problematic, and then increase that number as they level up. (How is that a difficult concept to grasp?) What should those numbers be? I don’t know for certain, that’s what playtesting is for. Y’know, like the playtest period we’re in right now.
Since we now both agree that #1 is now a nonissue, and #s 2-4 stand, I’ve still rebutted everything you’ve thrown at me as to why they should get rid of Pact Magic. So again, come up with something new.
LOL That was with them using the same number of slots. You can't say Warlock will run out of slots faster than Paladin b/c they spend 1/round on defense and have longer-term damage buff from Hex whereas Paladin is spending 1/round on offense while having longer-term defense buff in Shield of Faith (which is only 10mins vs 1+ hours for Hex).
PS, the Aura of Protection is so overrated. Consider the One D&D version of Resistance (a cantrip available at level 1) provides on average 2.5 bonus to a save in the same radius, while most Paladin AoP are a +2 to +3. If everyone in the party takes Magic Initiate to get Resistance as their level 1 feat, the party as a whole will be better protected from that than from the Paladin's Aura when they get it at 7th level.
The warlock is burning through spells in order to exceed the paladins defense, and burning their levels 2s to get close, while doing less damage. The paladin can chill and use their spells judiciously as they don't need to burn things to look half way decent. And lol on aura of protection being over rated. But hey the warlock has this the paladin still gets a ton of value out of a one level dip.
PS, the Aura of Protection is so overrated. Consider the One D&D version of Resistance (a cantrip available at level 1) provides on average 2.5 bonus to a save in the same radius, while most Paladin AoP are a +2 to +3. If everyone in the party takes Magic Initiate to get Resistance as their level 1 feat
So, you think the Aura is overrated because if everyone else in the party burns a feat, they can roughly match the bonus it gives?
Are you sure that's the answer you want to go with?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
2-4) That’s why it’s important to find the right balance. To give them just enough Pact Magic slots at lower levels so as to not be problematic, and then increase that number as they level up. (How is that a difficult concept to grasp?) What should those numbers be? I don’t know for certain, that’s what playtesting is for. Y’know, like the playtest period we’re in right now.
Since we now both agree that #1 is now a nonissue, and #s 2-4 stand, I’ve still rebutted everything you’ve thrown at me as to why they should get rid of Pact Magic. So again, come up with something new.
They did find the right balance, it's called half-casting with MA. Y'know, like the thing they're playtesting right now. Survey opens 5/17.
Since we now both agree that #1 is useless opinion, and #s 2-4 have yet to be surveyed by anything approaching a viable sample size, none of your attempted rebuttals to date matter. So again, come up with something new.
2-4) That’s why it’s important to find the right balance. To give them just enough Pact Magic slots at lower levels so as to not be problematic, and then increase that number as they level up. (How is that a difficult concept to grasp?) What should those numbers be? I don’t know for certain, that’s what playtesting is for. Y’know, like the playtest period we’re in right now.
Since we now both agree that #1 is now a nonissue, and #s 2-4 stand, I’ve still rebutted everything you’ve thrown at me as to why they should get rid of Pact Magic. So again, come up with something new.
They did find the right balance, it's called half-casting with MA. Y'know, like the thing they're playtesting right now. Survey opens 5/17.
Since we now both agree that #1 is useless opinion, and #s 2-4 have yet to be surveyed by anything approaching a viable sample size, none of your attempted rebuttals to date matter. So again, come up with something new.
You know full well I mean the right balance for Pact Magic, not half-casting.
What in the 9 hells does a “viable sample size” have to do with a conversation between 2 people? Oh, that’s right, absotively nothing.
I need come up with nothing new. Since you’re the one arguing against Pact Magic, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
You know full well I mean the right balance for Pact Magic, not half-casting.
What in the 9 hells does a “viable sample size” have to do with a conversation between 2 people? Oh, that’s right, absotively nothing.
I need come up with nothing new. Since you’re the one arguing against Pact Magic, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
I mean the right balance for the Warlock. The class we're discussing. Weren't you the one reiterating that everything is still on the table? The UA's Half-Caster + MA is in the poll above too.
And technically, I'm not the one arguing against Pact Magic, WotC is. They wouldn't be playtesting its utter removal from the class otherwise. What I'm doing is agreeing with their reasoning.
ENOUGH, BOTH OF YOU, STOP ANSWERING FOR... I DON'T REMEMBER WHY IT STARTED, you are arguing over disagreements uselessly, take a break and forget about this chain of responses, or resolve it in private, if you continue like this you will dilute this issue to one simple fight between only 2 users.
Flavor-wise, your half-caster progression represents your own occult studies, and your pact slots - power borrowed from, stolen from, or bestowed by your patron.
The way it currently stands, the only thing we can truly guarantee as being sourced from the Patron are the subclass features. One advantage to the MA invocation setup is that those can feasibly come from anywhere. You no longer have to explain for instance why an Undead Patron might possibly grant the Sunburst spell, you can just make another deal and grab it. Or you can stick with Arcana that are "on-brand" for your Patron if you so choose.
A Warlock can take levels 1 through 9 as Mystic Arcanum, they just start using it at level 5.
That means they can get potentially 24 casting slots between long rests. That while having the strongest damage cantrip in the game.
Thanks to their level 5 feature tomelocks don't even need Agonizing Blast, which means they have another invocation slot to turn into Mystic Arcanum.
So if the player goes all in on casting they are on par with a full caster, and they still have Eldritch Blast, which is a feature WotC consider so strong they've deliberately prevented it being used by a full caster.
At level 5 a Warlock can take two Mystic Arcanum to give them 4 level 1 slots, 2+1 level 2 slots, and +1 level 3 slots.
There is no balancing short rest recharge Pact slots with the expanded Arcane list Warlocks now have access to.
A Warlock can take levels 1 through 9 as Mystic Arcanum, they just start using it at level 5.
That means they can get potentially 24 casting slots between long rests. That while having the strongest damage cantrip in the game.
Thanks to their level 5 feature tomelocks don't even need Agonizing Blast, which means they have another invocation slot to turn into Mystic Arcanum.
So if the player goes all in on casting they are on par with a full caster, and they still have Eldritch Blast, which is a feature WotC consider so strong they've deliberately prevented it being used by a full caster.
At level 5 a Warlock can take two Mystic Arcanum to give them 4 level 1 slots, 2+1 level 2 slots, and +1 level 3 slots.
There is no balancing short rest recharge Pact slots with the expanded Arcane list Warlocks now have access to.
Should be noted warlocks get a free cast of one of their spells from their patron. I feel many are missing this in their spells per day calcs. I will actually be examining that assumptions later in yet another thread.
5th level Warlock has 5 Cantrips since they get EB and their Pact Boon Cantrip for free. They also have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells since they get a single use of one use of each level of their Patron's spells per Long Rest. That brings them to a total of 9 spells at level 5 compared to the Sorcerer's 9. And the same number of cantrips. By 9th level, the Warlock is up 2 cantrips and 15 spells compared to the Sorcerer's 14 if you use 3 Invocations.
At level 20, a Warlock will be able to cast 20 spells without Invocations considered at all while a Sorcerer will be able cast 22. The Sorcerer will have higher level spell slots, but once Invocations are considered, the Warlock will be able to cast more spells per day. Sounds pretty balanced overall and may actually lean in favor of the Warlock in many situations.
5th level Warlock has 5 Cantrips since they get EB and their Pact Boon Cantrip for free. They also have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells since they get a single use of one use of each level of their Patron's spells per Long Rest. That brings them to a total of 9 spells at level 5 compared to the Sorcerer's 9. And the same number of cantrips. By 9th level, the Warlock is up 2 cantrips and 15 spells compared to the Sorcerer's 14 if you use 3 Invocations.
At level 20, a Warlock will be able to cast 20 spells without Invocations considered at all while a Sorcerer will be able cast 22. The Sorcerer will have higher level spell slots, but once Invocations are considered, the Warlock will be able to cast more spells per day. Sounds pretty balanced overall and may actually lean in favor of the Warlock in many situations.
It is not one use of each of their patron spells it is only one use of one of their patron spells.
PS, the Aura of Protection is so overrated. Consider the One D&D version of Resistance (a cantrip available at level 1) provides on average 2.5 bonus to a save in the same radius, while most Paladin AoP are a +2 to +3. If everyone in the party takes Magic Initiate to get Resistance as their level 1 feat
So, you think the Aura is overrated because if everyone else in the party burns a feat, they can roughly match the bonus it gives?
Are you sure that's the answer you want to go with?
No if you want to actual math why it is over rate it is very simple, even with a +5 aura, having 1 member of the party avoid being targeted the AOE damage results in less total damage to the party than if everyone was in that +5 aura. The aura of protection is a trap, it encourages the party to bunch up with results in them taking MORE damage from AOE effects.
5th level Warlock has 5 Cantrips since they get EB and their Pact Boon Cantrip for free. They also have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells since they get a single use of one use of each level of their Patron's spells per Long Rest. That brings them to a total of 9 spells at level 5 compared to the Sorcerer's 9. And the same number of cantrips. By 9th level, the Warlock is up 2 cantrips and 15 spells compared to the Sorcerer's 14 if you use 3 Invocations.
At level 20, a Warlock will be able to cast 20 spells without Invocations considered at all while a Sorcerer will be able cast 22. The Sorcerer will have higher level spell slots, but once Invocations are considered, the Warlock will be able to cast more spells per day. Sounds pretty balanced overall and may actually lean in favor of the Warlock in many situations.
It is not one use of each of their patron spells it is only one use of one of their patron spells.
True, just like that, that single use per day can be very useful, depending on the list of course. and if it gave a free use per level uffff, that would help a bit in the face of a possible return of pact magic, needing less modifications to be viable and less dependent on short rests.
5th level Warlock has 5 Cantrips since they get EB and their Pact Boon Cantrip for free. They also have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells since they get a single use of one use of each level of their Patron's spells per Long Rest. That brings them to a total of 9 spells at level 5 compared to the Sorcerer's 9. And the same number of cantrips. By 9th level, the Warlock is up 2 cantrips and 15 spells compared to the Sorcerer's 14 if you use 3 Invocations.
At level 20, a Warlock will be able to cast 20 spells without Invocations considered at all while a Sorcerer will be able cast 22. The Sorcerer will have higher level spell slots, but once Invocations are considered, the Warlock will be able to cast more spells per day. Sounds pretty balanced overall and may actually lean in favor of the Warlock in many situations.
It is not one use of each of their patron spells it is only one use of one of their patron spells.
True, just like that, that single use per day can be very useful, depending on the list of course. and if it gave a free use per level uffff, that would help a bit in the face of a possible return of pact magic, needing less modifications to be viable and less dependent on short rests.
I personally would just love it to be one use per short rest. We wouldn't be RELIANT on short rests but it would be a little homage to the former way Warlocks worked.
PS, the Aura of Protection is so overrated. Consider the One D&D version of Resistance (a cantrip available at level 1) provides on average 2.5 bonus to a save in the same radius, while most Paladin AoP are a +2 to +3. If everyone in the party takes Magic Initiate to get Resistance as their level 1 feat
So, you think the Aura is overrated because if everyone else in the party burns a feat, they can roughly match the bonus it gives?
Are you sure that's the answer you want to go with?
No if you want to actual math why it is over rate it is very simple, even with a +5 aura, having 1 member of the party avoid being targeted the AOE damage results in less total damage to the party than if everyone was in that +5 aura. The aura of protection is a trap, it encourages the party to bunch up with results in them taking MORE damage from AOE effects.
There are so many wrong assumptions in there I'm actually a bit dizzy, but since this is a warlock thread and not a paladin thread I'll just leave you with this one -- who said anything about saving throws against damage?
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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I don't care about level 20 as much as I care about progression, because most games never get to level 20 anyway. So, if that's how you measure balance we're not even speaking the same language.
5th Level Sorcerer:
5th Level Warlock:
If I spend an Invocation on Mystic Arcanum I can get one 3rd level spell. It costs me a class feature to keep up with spellprogression, but I still have fewer spellslots. On top of this the Sorcerer got metamagic.
9th Level Sorcerer:
9th Level Warlock:
To keep up with progression I need to spend two Invocations to get one 4th and one 5th level spell. To even compete with amount of spellslots I need to use three Invocation, but I'd still be behind. My flexibility is spent on keeping up.
Warlocks were unique with their Pact Magic, now they're just half-caster Eldritch Blast batteries that are worse in melee than Paladins and Rangers and worse at support and utility than Artificers. They're are kinda meh.
You trade them when you get spells of that level natively, it's not hard. You'll have plenty left over for non-MA stuff.
1) "More interesting" is an opinion, not an argument. I don't find vestigial slots that progress with nothing except Warlock levels to be more interesting than casting that can be combined with the casting of other classes.
2 -4) This introduces further problems. Keep the number of autoscaling pact slots where they are, i.e. too few (especially with LR recovery) and we're right back where we started with Warlock dissatisfaction as they get to do nothing but cantrip spam after those slots are used, or worse, even before that because they're saving their nukes for a rainy day. Give them more, and they get unparalleled nova potential in Tiers 1 and 2, as they can drop 3-4 max level spell slots in a single encounter while the actual full casters are stuck with two at most. Proper spellcasting doesn't have to worry about threading that needle.
So (yet again) you've rebutted nothing at all.
Resistance is single target and uses a reaction. Aura of Protection is permanent and CAN scale to +5. It's not even in the same ballpark.
1) If it being more interesting is an an opinion and not an argument, then it being more interesting the other way is also purely an opinion and not an argument. Therefore your statements regarding the issue are just as invalid as mine. Therefore we can cross that all right off the list and drop that line of discussion altogether.
2-4) That’s why it’s important to find the right balance. To give them just enough Pact Magic slots at lower levels so as to not be problematic, and then increase that number as they level up. (How is that a difficult concept to grasp?) What should those numbers be? I don’t know for certain, that’s what playtesting is for. Y’know, like the playtest period we’re in right now.
Since we now both agree that #1 is now a nonissue, and #s 2-4 stand, I’ve still rebutted everything you’ve thrown at me as to why they should get rid of Pact Magic. So again, come up with something new.
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The warlock is burning through spells in order to exceed the paladins defense, and burning their levels 2s to get close, while doing less damage. The paladin can chill and use their spells judiciously as they don't need to burn things to look half way decent. And lol on aura of protection being over rated. But hey the warlock has this the paladin still gets a ton of value out of a one level dip.
So, you think the Aura is overrated because if everyone else in the party burns a feat, they can roughly match the bonus it gives?
Are you sure that's the answer you want to go with?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
They did find the right balance, it's called half-casting with MA. Y'know, like the thing they're playtesting right now. Survey opens 5/17.
Since we now both agree that #1 is useless opinion, and #s 2-4 have yet to be surveyed by anything approaching a viable sample size, none of your attempted rebuttals to date matter. So again, come up with something new.
You know full well I mean the right balance for Pact Magic, not half-casting.
What in the 9 hells does a “viable sample size” have to do with a conversation between 2 people? Oh, that’s right, absotively nothing.
I need come up with nothing new. Since you’re the one arguing against Pact Magic, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
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I mean the right balance for the Warlock. The class we're discussing. Weren't you the one reiterating that everything is still on the table? The UA's Half-Caster + MA is in the poll above too.
And technically, I'm not the one arguing against Pact Magic, WotC is. They wouldn't be playtesting its utter removal from the class otherwise. What I'm doing is agreeing with their reasoning.
ENOUGH, BOTH OF YOU, STOP ANSWERING FOR... I DON'T REMEMBER WHY IT STARTED, you are arguing over disagreements uselessly, take a break and forget about this chain of responses, or resolve it in private, if you continue like this you will dilute this issue to one simple fight between only 2 users.
You know what, good point Sakura, it'll probably be a lot simpler if I just block him for the remainder of the playtest packet.
@OP: On the flavor front:
The way it currently stands, the only thing we can truly guarantee as being sourced from the Patron are the subclass features. One advantage to the MA invocation setup is that those can feasibly come from anywhere. You no longer have to explain for instance why an Undead Patron might possibly grant the Sunburst spell, you can just make another deal and grab it. Or you can stick with Arcana that are "on-brand" for your Patron if you so choose.
A Warlock can take levels 1 through 9 as Mystic Arcanum, they just start using it at level 5.
That means they can get potentially 24 casting slots between long rests. That while having the strongest damage cantrip in the game.
Thanks to their level 5 feature tomelocks don't even need Agonizing Blast, which means they have another invocation slot to turn into Mystic Arcanum.
So if the player goes all in on casting they are on par with a full caster, and they still have Eldritch Blast, which is a feature WotC consider so strong they've deliberately prevented it being used by a full caster.
At level 5 a Warlock can take two Mystic Arcanum to give them 4 level 1 slots, 2+1 level 2 slots, and +1 level 3 slots.
There is no balancing short rest recharge Pact slots with the expanded Arcane list Warlocks now have access to.
Should be noted warlocks get a free cast of one of their spells from their patron. I feel many are missing this in their spells per day calcs. I will actually be examining that assumptions later in yet another thread.
Okay, just a minor (major) point here.
5th level Warlock has 5 Cantrips since they get EB and their Pact Boon Cantrip for free. They also have 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells since they get a single use of one use of each level of their Patron's spells per Long Rest. That brings them to a total of 9 spells at level 5 compared to the Sorcerer's 9. And the same number of cantrips. By 9th level, the Warlock is up 2 cantrips and 15 spells compared to the Sorcerer's 14 if you use 3 Invocations.
At level 20, a Warlock will be able to cast 20 spells without Invocations considered at all while a Sorcerer will be able cast 22. The Sorcerer will have higher level spell slots, but once Invocations are considered, the Warlock will be able to cast more spells per day. Sounds pretty balanced overall and may actually lean in favor of the Warlock in many situations.
It is not one use of each of their patron spells it is only one use of one of their patron spells.
Yeah, I read it wrong.
No if you want to actual math why it is over rate it is very simple, even with a +5 aura, having 1 member of the party avoid being targeted the AOE damage results in less total damage to the party than if everyone was in that +5 aura. The aura of protection is a trap, it encourages the party to bunch up with results in them taking MORE damage from AOE effects.
True, just like that, that single use per day can be very useful, depending on the list of course. and if it gave a free use per level uffff, that would help a bit in the face of a possible return of pact magic, needing less modifications to be viable and less dependent on short rests.
I personally would just love it to be one use per short rest. We wouldn't be RELIANT on short rests but it would be a little homage to the former way Warlocks worked.
There are so many wrong assumptions in there I'm actually a bit dizzy, but since this is a warlock thread and not a paladin thread I'll just leave you with this one -- who said anything about saving throws against damage?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)