Monk is definitely disappointing and I hate that everyone that is weapon focused is getting mastery. It takes away some of the specialness we felt we were getting with the new fighter and barbarian. Back to "the warrior group needs something".
I'm not against other classes getting Mastery, since the whole thing was that fighters can do *more* with mastery, customizing weapons with non-standard mastery effects and stacking multiple masteries onto a single weapon.
Weapon Mastery is meant to make *weapons* more special, not to make *fighters* more special. Fighters can just do more with weapon Mastery than other classes.
I miss monk weapons using MA die - replacing using MA die with Monk Weapons (limited Selection) with weapon mastery does not feel right to me.
Maybe 2024 Kensi Monk will allow Monk to use MA die with their Chosen Weapon.
List a few Weapon Masteries that can be used with unarmed Strikes. Slow / Push is already an option with unarmed strike. / Sap / Nick (Masteries useable with bludgeoning weapons.)
I still did not get weapon throwing fighting style (Monk is in warrior group)
I am sorry we did not get a missile deflect type ability for melee attacks.
They reduced Stunning Strike to once per turn but did not give it anything to make up for it. (SAY: Target Dazed if they pass the save)
Need +5/+5 or +5/+4 mods for 2 stats if you want a good AC to go without armor and Shield to be able to use Martial Arts / Unarmored Movement / Acrobatic Movement /
A first level monk dual wielding daggers (which have nick) can attack 3x/turn for 1d4+3/1d4+3/1d6+3 (17.5 damage). At level 2 you can spend a discipline point for another 1d6+3 (24 damage total). I don't know if 'glass cannon' is the intended design, but it's certainly the result.
This is my feeling about Monk, it's a lot like Rogue, it's a hit and run class in it's current design, which is okay for Rogue because they do so many things out of combat but Monk doesn't... and Rogue kind of does it better in combat too. Monk either needs more durability or more overall utility in & out of combat, perhaps both.
Oh they did, that's good. Otherwise there is so much pressure to get as many attacks as possible. But that just makes Monk DPR equal to Ranger DPR at low levels (actually still less so b/c the hunter's mark 1d6 has a higher chance to trigger), but it doesn't scale as well because the only feature it gets to increase its damage is Flurry of Blows.
And? They also don't have to worry about dropping FoB after one turn. Unarmed attacks could use a tune up to keep pace with Weapon Masteries, but overall the Monk isn't in nearly so bad a place as some make it out to be. No, it's not the pinnacle of optimized DPR, but this isn't an MMO so you aren't required to maintain maximum output to remain relevant.
What do they get other than DPR though? Sure every class doesn't have to be good at everything, but it should be good at SOMETHING. Where does a monk excel to make up for their maximum DPR being just average DPR of non-DPR focused class like Ranger?
The ability to deflect ranged attacks, the ability to Dodge as a Bonus Action, the chance to stun an enemy for a turn on top of landing an attack, Evasion, the ability to run up vertical surfaces or across liquids at a point when their minimum move speed will be 45 feet before dashing, the ability to end Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned at will, prof in all saving throws.
Oh they did, that's good. Otherwise there is so much pressure to get as many attacks as possible. But that just makes Monk DPR equal to Ranger DPR at low levels (actually still less so b/c the hunter's mark 1d6 has a higher chance to trigger), but it doesn't scale as well because the only feature it gets to increase its damage is Flurry of Blows.
And? They also don't have to worry about dropping FoB after one turn. Unarmed attacks could use a tune up to keep pace with Weapon Masteries, but overall the Monk isn't in nearly so bad a place as some make it out to be. No, it's not the pinnacle of optimized DPR, but this isn't an MMO so you aren't required to maintain maximum output to remain relevant.
What do they get other than DPR though? Sure every class doesn't have to be good at everything, but it should be good at SOMETHING. Where does a monk excel to make up for their maximum DPR being just average DPR of non-DPR focused class like Ranger?
i rather liked the monk changes (especially elemental (call me crazy)) until i scrolled a bit farther and saw how rogues at 5th level can now disarm, cause prone, impose disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks (poison), and/or withdraw. that is some chef's kiss combat utility. sure would have been a ripe time to give monks a melee deflect.
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Just a note, the reach granted by Elemental Attunement is increased by 10', not set to 10'. That means for most, it's 15' reach. As far as I can tell, this should let you grabble opponents 15' away using the elements, in theory locking them down and keeping you safe from them.
I believe they should increase lower level discipline points. Perhaps dex mod plus level, or even wisdom mod plus level.
They should also return to unarmed strike damage for monk weapons, and in addition, let monk unarmed strike grapple/shove options use dex instead of strength for the save.
Finally, I'm not a fan of the capstone. I mean, it's not a bad capstone for a tank class, but a monk is very clearly a skirmisher. You want your capstone to really enhance and embody what your character does best. If you and your party are playing well, you'll NEVER use this ability. It kind of sucks to have a capstone that you will actively avoid trying to ever use.
Honestly, take that capstone ability, weaken it somewhat (perhaps 2 points for 2 rolls, +2 per use after) and tack it on to the nerfed Superior Defense at 18. Then give us an actual skirmish power at level 20.
The ability to deflect ranged attacks, the ability to Dodge as a Bonus Action, the chance to stun an enemy for a turn on top of landing an attack, Evasion, the ability to run up vertical surfaces or across liquids at a point when their minimum move speed will be 45 feet before dashing, the ability to end Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned at will, prof in all saving throws.
Do any of those work for you?
Not really, because they don't add up to a "thing" the monk is actually good at in a majority of situations.
Deflecting ranged attacks - if you're in a combat with enemies that fire projectiles (a minority of combat) AND the monk is the one targeted by the projectiles AND the monk is targeted by only 1-2 projectiles per round THEN this is a good feature. Note this is a two "AND" situation. Contrast with Rogue's Uncanny Dodge - if the rogue is targeted by only 1-2 attacks per round THEN this is a good feature. Note this is a 0 "AND" situation.
Ability to Dodge as a BA - if the monk has ki points available AND the monk knows they are going to be attacked multiple times in the next round THEN this is a good feature - 1x "AND" ability. Contrast with Rogue's BA Hide - if the rogue has somewhere available to hide on the map THEN this is a good feature - 0 "AND" ability.
Ability to end fear/charm as a BA - if the monk gets feared/charmed AND the monk still has the ability to choose the actions they take. This is a good feature - 1x "AND" Contrast with Rogue's Slippery Mind - if the rogue has to make a Wis/Cha save THEN this is a good feature - 0 "AND" ability
But anyway. DL:DR please tell me some concrete aspect of the game that is likely to occur in at least 25% of encounters where the UA6 Monk is better than the UA6 Rogue.
Skills, Rogue is better. Imposing conditions on the enemy, Rogue is better Hit & Run, Rogue is better. Resilience to getting attacked, Rogue is better. Dealing damage, Rogue is better. Scouting, Rogue is better.
Monk has a slight edge on maneuverability, if they have ki available but that's about it...
The ability to deflect ranged attacks, the ability to Dodge as a Bonus Action, the chance to stun an enemy for a turn on top of landing an attack, Evasion, the ability to run up vertical surfaces or across liquids at a point when their minimum move speed will be 45 feet before dashing, the ability to end Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned at will, prof in all saving throws.
Do any of those work for you?
The issue is early on you lack the discipline points to keep using all of those (except evasion) and by later levels, you'd need to do that every round to be keeping up with other classes who's ACs increase much faster, and you have all that with a D8 dice, the lowest of all the Warrior Group, lower than Paladin and Ranger. Also Fighter, Paladin and Ranger all have methods to self-heal, Barbarian has that huge D12 hit die and rage.
1) Give bonus Ki equal to WIS bonus. This would be a big help to low-level monks, and only being able to stun 1/per round would help keep it from being egregious.
2) Only spend a Ki when using the Disengage and extended jump portion of SotW. Let the monk Dash as much as a Rogue.
It seems to me that the decisions they made around weapons seems to be intended to limit other monks from stepping into the eventual new Kensei's lane. I personally would have liked to have at least one mastery for unarmed strikes. If they did that though, it does not seem likely that simple weapons would ever be used at all by most monks.
Monk remains the worst class in the game, bar none. The ONLY relevant change is the unarmed damage boost, and every other issue with the class is untouched. Still the only class that needs two maximum ability scores to function, you have to do Dex first to function at all meaning your Save DCs for anything will suck for most of your life. You still have less hit points than every other Warrior, and when you're one of two classes that can ONLY function in melee that's a problem. Oh and you'll have the worst AC of any warrior class for most of the game too.
And Stunning Strike - THE most overrated ability in the game - got nerfed. Just amazing. 0/10.
Hey now, they can recover their ki disc once per day!
...At 7th level. And then they're back to begging the party for short rests.
I am sorely disappointed. 5E Monk was ripe for the rewriting, and it looks like the bare minimum was changed. Short Rest reliance got a quick patch. Stunning Strike appropriately got changed to once a turn, but with nothing to compensate. Most of the issues still remain (MAD, Tier 1 survivability, Tier 1 resource availability, Tier 3&4 damage, bonus action dilemmas, Diamond Soul too late). And the new features, Weapon Mastery for Unarmed Strikes and Unarmed Strikes Grappling with DEX, did not even get implemented in the Monk class!
I can only hope that a major rewrite was in the works, but could not get finished in time, thus resulting in minimal changes. I am not optimistic enough to hope for that. I must conclude that the developers did not see or read any of the countless discussions on these boards about fixing the monk.
Monk remains the worst class in the game, bar none. The ONLY relevant change is the unarmed damage boost, and every other issue with the class is untouched. Still the only class that needs two maximum ability scores to function, you have to do Dex first to function at all meaning your Save DCs for anything will suck for most of your life. You still have less hit points than every other Warrior, and when you're one of two classes that can ONLY function in melee that's a problem. Oh and you'll have the worst AC of any warrior class for most of the game too.
And Stunning Strike - THE most overrated ability in the game - got nerfed. Just amazing. 0/10.
Hey now, they can recover their ki disc once per day!
...At 7th level. And then they're back to begging the party for short rests.
I think people have to pick a stream on these arguments. Are you having so few encounters that your party never takes a short rest or not.
If you have piles of encounters per day you are short resting anyways just for the hit points. If you are only having a couple and skipping them this solves that.
Like I think the monk needed more, but that feature is a big win.
They're not a tank; they're mobile DPR with a smattering of mitigation to make up for being MAD, d8 HD, and moderate AC. The features you're describing as isolated are, in point of fact, collaborative.
Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points
Right Discipline Points is just a mouthful that is horrible to say. Already I’m shortening it, already disc is morphing into di*k points
@WotC, call them Spirit Points if you refuse to use Ki, Qi or Chi
There are many criticisms that I believe have merit, but I personally see this as being a bit nit-picky. Discipline Points takes no more effort to say than Sorcery Points does and less than Bardic Inspiration, Pass without Trace (always gets an 'a' added), or Prestidigitation.
How big of a mind scar did the word 'Ki' cause on WotC to even feel the need to change the easily-said Ki to 'Discipline'? Did they called Konami's localization team and asked what the most """""appropiate, sensible and modern""""" term was? It should also be noted that 'Discipline' makes it feel like the Monk is always a disciple (student) rather than a master of martial arts.
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I'm not against other classes getting Mastery, since the whole thing was that fighters can do *more* with mastery, customizing weapons with non-standard mastery effects and stacking multiple masteries onto a single weapon.
Weapon Mastery is meant to make *weapons* more special, not to make *fighters* more special. Fighters can just do more with weapon Mastery than other classes.
I miss monk weapons using MA die - replacing using MA die with Monk Weapons (limited Selection) with weapon mastery does not feel right to me.
Maybe 2024 Kensi Monk will allow Monk to use MA die with their Chosen Weapon.
List a few Weapon Masteries that can be used with unarmed Strikes. Slow / Push is already an option with unarmed strike. / Sap / Nick (Masteries useable with bludgeoning weapons.)
I still did not get weapon throwing fighting style (Monk is in warrior group)
I am sorry we did not get a missile deflect type ability for melee attacks.
They reduced Stunning Strike to once per turn but did not give it anything to make up for it. (SAY: Target Dazed if they pass the save)
Need +5/+5 or +5/+4 mods for 2 stats if you want a good AC to go without armor and Shield to be able to use Martial Arts / Unarmored Movement / Acrobatic Movement /
This is my feeling about Monk, it's a lot like Rogue, it's a hit and run class in it's current design, which is okay for Rogue because they do so many things out of combat but Monk doesn't... and Rogue kind of does it better in combat too. Monk either needs more durability or more overall utility in & out of combat, perhaps both.
Consider 5th level:
Monk (any): (2d8+6 + 2d8+6)*0.65 = 19.5 - FoB
Ranger (Hunter): (1d8+3)*0.65 + 0.70*(1d8+3) + 0.88*(2d6+1d8) = 20.2 - upcast Hunter's Mark
What do they get other than DPR though? Sure every class doesn't have to be good at everything, but it should be good at SOMETHING. Where does a monk excel to make up for their maximum DPR being just average DPR of non-DPR focused class like Ranger?
The ability to deflect ranged attacks, the ability to Dodge as a Bonus Action, the chance to stun an enemy for a turn on top of landing an attack, Evasion, the ability to run up vertical surfaces or across liquids at a point when their minimum move speed will be 45 feet before dashing, the ability to end Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned at will, prof in all saving throws.
Do any of those work for you?
i rather liked the monk changes (especially elemental (call me crazy)) until i scrolled a bit farther and saw how rogues at 5th level can now disarm, cause prone, impose disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks (poison), and/or withdraw. that is some chef's kiss combat utility. sure would have been a ripe time to give monks a melee deflect.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Just a note, the reach granted by Elemental Attunement is increased by 10', not set to 10'. That means for most, it's 15' reach. As far as I can tell, this should let you grabble opponents 15' away using the elements, in theory locking them down and keeping you safe from them.
I believe they should increase lower level discipline points. Perhaps dex mod plus level, or even wisdom mod plus level.
They should also return to unarmed strike damage for monk weapons, and in addition, let monk unarmed strike grapple/shove options use dex instead of strength for the save.
Finally, I'm not a fan of the capstone. I mean, it's not a bad capstone for a tank class, but a monk is very clearly a skirmisher. You want your capstone to really enhance and embody what your character does best. If you and your party are playing well, you'll NEVER use this ability. It kind of sucks to have a capstone that you will actively avoid trying to ever use.
Honestly, take that capstone ability, weaken it somewhat (perhaps 2 points for 2 rolls, +2 per use after) and tack it on to the nerfed Superior Defense at 18. Then give us an actual skirmish power at level 20.
Not really, because they don't add up to a "thing" the monk is actually good at in a majority of situations.
Deflecting ranged attacks - if you're in a combat with enemies that fire projectiles (a minority of combat) AND the monk is the one targeted by the projectiles AND the monk is targeted by only 1-2 projectiles per round THEN this is a good feature. Note this is a two "AND" situation.
Contrast with Rogue's Uncanny Dodge - if the rogue is targeted by only 1-2 attacks per round THEN this is a good feature. Note this is a 0 "AND" situation.
Ability to Dodge as a BA - if the monk has ki points available AND the monk knows they are going to be attacked multiple times in the next round THEN this is a good feature - 1x "AND" ability.
Contrast with Rogue's BA Hide - if the rogue has somewhere available to hide on the map THEN this is a good feature - 0 "AND" ability.
Ability to end fear/charm as a BA - if the monk gets feared/charmed AND the monk still has the ability to choose the actions they take. This is a good feature - 1x "AND"
Contrast with Rogue's Slippery Mind - if the rogue has to make a Wis/Cha save THEN this is a good feature - 0 "AND" ability
But anyway. DL:DR please tell me some concrete aspect of the game that is likely to occur in at least 25% of encounters where the UA6 Monk is better than the UA6 Rogue.
Skills, Rogue is better.
Imposing conditions on the enemy, Rogue is better
Hit & Run, Rogue is better.
Resilience to getting attacked, Rogue is better.
Dealing damage, Rogue is better.
Scouting, Rogue is better.
Monk has a slight edge on maneuverability, if they have ki available but that's about it...
The issue is early on you lack the discipline points to keep using all of those (except evasion) and by later levels, you'd need to do that every round to be keeping up with other classes who's ACs increase much faster, and you have all that with a D8 dice, the lowest of all the Warrior Group, lower than Paladin and Ranger. Also Fighter, Paladin and Ranger all have methods to self-heal, Barbarian has that huge D12 hit die and rage.
A couple of changes I'd like to see:
1) Give bonus Ki equal to WIS bonus. This would be a big help to low-level monks, and only being able to stun 1/per round would help keep it from being egregious.
2) Only spend a Ki when using the Disengage and extended jump portion of SotW. Let the monk Dash as much as a Rogue.
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It seems to me that the decisions they made around weapons seems to be intended to limit other monks from stepping into the eventual new Kensei's lane. I personally would have liked to have at least one mastery for unarmed strikes. If they did that though, it does not seem likely that simple weapons would ever be used at all by most monks.
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Hey now, they can recover their
kidisc once per day!...At 7th level. And then they're back to begging the party for short rests.
I am sorely disappointed. 5E Monk was ripe for the rewriting, and it looks like the bare minimum was changed. Short Rest reliance got a quick patch. Stunning Strike appropriately got changed to once a turn, but with nothing to compensate. Most of the issues still remain (MAD, Tier 1 survivability, Tier 1 resource availability, Tier 3&4 damage, bonus action dilemmas, Diamond Soul too late). And the new features, Weapon Mastery for Unarmed Strikes and Unarmed Strikes Grappling with DEX, did not even get implemented in the Monk class!
I can only hope that a major rewrite was in the works, but could not get finished in time, thus resulting in minimal changes. I am not optimistic enough to hope for that. I must conclude that the developers did not see or read any of the countless discussions on these boards about fixing the monk.
I think people have to pick a stream on these arguments. Are you having so few encounters that your party never takes a short rest or not.
If you have piles of encounters per day you are short resting anyways just for the hit points. If you are only having a couple and skipping them this solves that.
Like I think the monk needed more, but that feature is a big win.
What is the monk's identity in the game. Unarmed Damage Dealer / Mobile tank / Hit and runner / Battlefield controller.
Once they decide on that they can then build on that.
Just a thought.
They're not a tank; they're mobile DPR with a smattering of mitigation to make up for being MAD, d8 HD, and moderate AC. The features you're describing as isolated are, in point of fact, collaborative.
2nd Level Martial Discipline
Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points
Right Discipline Points is just a mouthful that is horrible to say. Already I’m shortening it, already disc is morphing into di*k points
@WotC, call them Spirit Points if you refuse to use Ki, Qi or Chi
There are many criticisms that I believe have merit, but I personally see this as being a bit nit-picky. Discipline Points takes no more effort to say than Sorcery Points does and less than Bardic Inspiration, Pass without Trace (always gets an 'a' added), or Prestidigitation.
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How big of a mind scar did the word 'Ki' cause on WotC to even feel the need to change the easily-said Ki to 'Discipline'? Did they called Konami's localization team and asked what the most """""appropiate, sensible and modern""""" term was? It should also be noted that 'Discipline' makes it feel like the Monk is always a disciple (student) rather than a master of martial arts.