I kind of like the concept of Wisdom based Sorcerers. If you think about Merlin he was more similar to a D&D druid than a D&D sorcerer. And Wisdom is supposed to represent will-power and self-control (hence why it is associated with monks) which is thematically related to how sorcerers get control of their powers. Plus I find it narratively strange that people would be convinced by / trust a person with sparks of wild magic jumping around their finger tips.
Once more, having high CHA does not automatically make you a smooth-talker; high CHA is stage presence, skill proficiency is having good material, if that analogy helps. And the thing about WIS is that on the casting side of the street it’s meant to represent more the spiritual side of things; Clerics attune with their deity/domain, Druids and Rangers attune with nature. With Sorcerers, there’s no ongoing external component, it’s all internal. Thus they don’t use WIS, and because part of the point of the class at creation was to be distinct from Wizards, they don’t use INT. Once more, CHA is not only the closest one for their dynamic, it’s also the only one left.
Again, Charisma itself is not necessarily being a social butterfly, it’s more force of personality.
I find it interesting that you're trying to say that having Charisma doesn't mean that someone is charismatic. The main use of Charisma (outside of spellcasting / class features like auras) in D&D is in social influence skill checks. If you have a high Charisma score, you WILL be personable. By definition. Furthermore, Sorcerers have an affinity for Deception, Insight, Intimidation and Persuasion skills, four of the six skill options. Ignoring this aspect is being highly disingenuous.
Even if you want to reduce Charisma to "force of personality" - I feel compelled to point out that "force of personality" is synonymous with "confidence." That is very much still against the examples I suggested. Carrie did not have a strong "force of personality" - she had a broken one from abuse and bullying and was lashing out at her tormentors. There's nothing about being a mutant that should automatically translate into confidence.
Granted, that justification works better on Sorcerers than Warlocks for an “I just will the magic to be” explanation, but with Warlocks there is an element of “okay, you have the power, now make it work”, I’d say.
That's the problem. Sorcerers don't just "will the magic to be." That implies you're just warping reality to however you want your imagination to work.
With a sorcerer... Something shoved magic into your body - sometimes, its your genetics, but other times its a mutation from magical radiation. And now, you have to push that magic from inside your body out.
Its a lot like being a monk, in a way. You have magic in your body (ki, sorcery) and your goal is to shove the magic from inside the body out of it. Sorcerers are just a bit more explosive about how they do it, and less martial-artsy.
Part of it is also just a matter of CHA being what’s left. If you’ve learned magic through rigorous study, you use INT. If you learned magic through a spiritual communion with a higher power/force/concept you use WIS. If you got it some other way, then CHA is the only stat left.
Hmm... that's how they did it in 3e, but that's demonstratively untrue in 5e. Paladins certainly have no issue with divinely granted power and Charisma. Bards in 5e are powered outright by the academic study magic (they're called bardic collegesfor a reason), especially Words of Power, but they're also Charisma based.
5e casting stat is more about being true to the class fantasy and tropes as well as being tied to the classic attributes of certain skills - bard is Charisma because Perform (as well as things like oratory) are Charisma. Wizards are INT because its is all about that knowledge. Paladins are all about being knights in shining armor, with a dash of Prince Charming and maybe King Arthur as part of the class fantasy. Druids and rangers are all about listening to nature.
With the warlock, there's a good number of people that see it as having the power come from bargains specifically, rather than study. The iconic warlock (Farideh, the tiefling in the core book) has spells imprinted into her mind by her Patron, no study necessary. She's got a book of rituals (thanks, 4e feat) but her actual class and all her battle spells had zero study. She had to directly con her cambion patron into give her new spells every time. And you see the Warlock begging their patron for extra stuff in the class features. This is why lots of people want a charismatic warlock - they see the convincing part as primary, not magic studies.
Which brings me back to the original problem - what is the class fantasy of the sorcerer, and why should it be tied to Charisma? Self study (INT), self-awareness (WIS) are just as good of explanations as self-confidence (CHA). Saying, "Well, because why not!" isn't a very satisfying answer.
Keep in mind that Sorcerers and Warlocks weren’t a part of the original system; they got added in around 3rd edition and so there’s a certain amount of shoehorning and after the fact justification to their casting stat.
Keep in mind that only Fighter, Cleric and Magic User (wizard) were part of the original system; even Thief (rogue) was a later addition, though it was a very early addition. And yet other classes like Artificer, Bard, etc. don't have this issue.
With warlock the problem isn't shoehorning - its people fundamentally disagreeing on what the class fantasy of the warlock is. Is it a type of magic scholar or something akin to a dark priest?
With Sorcerer, the issue is... no one knows what to do with the class mechanics, because they change with every single edition its been out, which includes every D&D clone.
Why is it so freaking terrible to want a warlock class that isn't actively pushed away from having an Intelligence score higher than 6?
The book outright says "DELVERS INTO SECRETS", with the line "Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power, which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives" front and center. Knowledge and power. KNOWLEDGE and power. So why is the class actively ******* steered away from ever having 'Knowledge' and shoved towards being a bumbling horny idiot?
Honestly, INT and WIS aren't a good fit purely on the basis of a comparison of the basic archetypes. The baseline image of a Wizard or Artificer is someone who is meant to have spent years if not decades learning their craft from the ground up. The baseline for Clerics and Druids is to commune and harmonize with a higher power. The baseline for Warlocks is some kind of transactional relationship; they do X and get power in return, no inherent need for rigorous study or spiritual communion. Like, yes, you can attempt to justify how your particular backstory is more about learning the ancient rites or finding a way to commune with The Beast Who Was Behind the Door When the Vowels Were Handed Out, but by the same token you can have a Cleric who goes with the whole "my domain comes from a concept, not a deity" and/or generally is more a theologian than a member of the clergy or a Wizard who just got their spellbook a few weeks ago or is more an intuitive caster than a rigorous academic; learning to play music or sing and particularly memorizing a wide repertoire of songs is at least as much of a cerebral exercise as an emotive one. Casting stats are all somewhat arbitrary and aren't necessarily going to reflect how you make a character's backstory or play the character. If Warlocks can be flexible about it, there's really no reason why all the other classes can't too. Which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then it might make it too easy for one casting stat to become mechanically dominant.
TLDR: Yes, you can justify INT or WIS with your particular Warlock backstory, but casting stats are sometimes an instance of Gameplay and Story Segregation.
I mean sure but you are wrong. There is almost 0 connection between the warlock and charisma. They made one damn contract which could or could not be tied to charisma based on how the contract was formed, everything else about the class is intelligence. People just like charisma because its better. Not just it covers the social pillar aspect but its a active vs reactive skill. You can go forth and choose to charm, intimidate, deceive etc. Unless the DM hands you a reason to you are not rolling arcana.
Everything is not INT; the feature descriptions frame the majority of them as being given or shown a new power. They aren’t independently growing and learning how to use magic, they’re receiving further installments from your deal. Plus, CHA is a better reflection of the underlying transactional nature of the relationship. The character in some way, shape, or form was handed power while skipping over the prerequisite steps; they did not study for it or attune themselves to the power. That’s the fundamental archetype used for designing the class, even if your personal backstory is framed differently. Ergo, they do not use the same stat as either of those paths, which also happens to leave only one mental stat left.
Which is exactly wrong. The fundamental archetype is a person who is busting their ass, studying, investigating, searching out power and knowledge, which is intelligence. Thier absolute core is the intelligence stat.. The I'm a strong willed force of personality is no where in the class.
Why is it so freaking terrible to want a warlock class that isn't actively pushed away from having an Intelligence score higher than 6?
The book outright says "DELVERS INTO SECRETS", with the line "Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power, which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives" front and center. Knowledge and power. KNOWLEDGE and power. So why is the class actively ******* steered away from ever having 'Knowledge' and shoved towards being a bumbling horny idiot?
So there’s a great deal of your premise that is just fundamentally a strawman, but to get to the heart of why Warlocks seeking knowledge does not equate to INT, let’s look a Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Without getting too in-depth, the main villain wants to acquire all knowledge and become God, and to that end he prepares this massive ritual. When he’s defeated he ends up facing the being who embodies that knowledge, and is called out for the fact that he never actually tried to learn and grow independently to reach his goal, he just attempted to take the knowledge outright. And with Warlocks it’s a similar deal; they aren’t framed as looking to work through trial and error to learn magic, they’re looking for a “do this to gain that power” explanation. They’re looking to find a macro someone else already made rather than looking to learn how to code their own program.
Obviously this doesn’t mean you can’t say your Warlock is a diligent student of arcana (I’ve currently got one with 16 INT I’m playing), but the formative concept of the class is a caster who is looking for the end result of “how do I use magic for X” while skipping the middle process of solving the problem on their own.
Why is it so freaking terrible to want a warlock class that isn't actively pushed away from having an Intelligence score higher than 6?
The book outright says "DELVERS INTO SECRETS", with the line "Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power, which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives" front and center. Knowledge and power. KNOWLEDGE and power. So why is the class actively ******* steered away from ever having 'Knowledge' and shoved towards being a bumbling horny idiot?
I don't disagree with you until the horny jumps up from behind your argument shouting "booga booga!"
high charisma suggests better success with charisma checks. sure, it could mean extrovert and/or manipulative. but it could also cover someone with a great deal of social awareness who isn't automatically someone that likes loud music, public speaking, or hugs even. their "social awareness" might be masking trauma rather than born-with-it gregariousness.
a good conversation to have, regardless.
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Why is it so freaking terrible to want a warlock class that isn't actively pushed away from having an Intelligence score higher than 6?
The book outright says "DELVERS INTO SECRETS", with the line "Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power, which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives" front and center. Knowledge and power. KNOWLEDGE and power. So why is the class actively ******* steered away from ever having 'Knowledge' and shoved towards being a bumbling horny idiot?
Yet again, I'm not against including the possibility of Intelligence as a casting stat for Warlocks, but having an insatiable need for knowledge and power does not necessarily mean the character has the intellectual abilities to gain that knowledge and power through on their own. If they did, they would have probably become Wizards. Warlocks may have made great efforts to uncover what led them to their patron, but intelligence is not the crucial ability they need to control that power (since they did not really get the power from study, but bargained for it).
Now the fact that in most game situations, Intelligence is less useful than Charisma (as well as many other ability scores) does mean that it is often used as a dump stat for Warlocks, which is unfortunate (although I have played quite successful and powerful Warlocks with Intelligence scores that are above the average). It is also unfortunate that the skills related to Charisma tend to lead down the path of some folks seeing it as merely surface beauty and persuasiveness (which it certainly can also be), but Charisma can and should be a mental stat with just as much depth as Intelligence and Wisdom. Of course, with that being said, the rules structure certainly encourages the problems you cite, and efforts should be made in general to counteract that.
Which is exactly wrong. The fundamental archetype is a person who is busting their ass, studying, investigating, searching out power and knowledge, which is intelligence. Thier absolute core is the intelligence stat.. The I'm a strong willed force of personality is no where in the class.
Nah. The search for power or knowledge isn't ability score relevant, that's a question of ambition.
Intelligence is grasping and utilizing that knowledge, which could be a warlock (and part of why I think an Int or Wis warlock could make sense) but the classic archetype of that sort of mental model is Wizard. On the other hand "insatiable need" and a "thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked with mere study and research" sounds like an individual whose force of will is propelling them towards a deeper but more fraught connection to the power of their patron. Which sounds like a charisma focus.
Sure, the Warlock may have their power because they desperately and successfully sought out eldritch secrets, but they're also equally likely to have just bumbled their way into a Seelie court to make a deal with an Archfey lord, or been offered the right deal when the wrong fiend was around. There are infinite ways a warlock might come into power, but the expression of that power has nothing to do with how they came to it. Funneling and using that alien energy, which by all rights the warlock should have no command over, is all about exerting your force of will; taming the howling fire you've won to put to your own use. The mental ability that most closely maps to exerting dominance is charisma.
Sure, the Warlock may have their power because they desperately and successfully sought out eldritch secrets, but they're also equally likely to have just bumbled their way into a Seelie court to make a deal with an Archfey lord, or been offered the right deal when the wrong fiend was around.
That’s precisely why any of the three Spellcasting stats can make sense for a Warlock, and why they should be able to choose their Spellcasting stat.
Sure, the Warlock may have their power because they desperately and successfully sought out eldritch secrets, but they're also equally likely to have just bumbled their way into a Seelie court to make a deal with an Archfey lord, or been offered the right deal when the wrong fiend was around.
That’s precisely why any of the three Spellcasting stats can make sense for a Warlock, and why they should be able to choose their Spellcasting stat.
Yes, as I said on my other posts, I agree the warlock should be able to choose between Int/Wis/Cha for their spellcasting stat.
It seems like the debate at this point is (pointlessly, pedantically) over whether charisma or intelligence makes more sense if we had to choose one. I don't think anyone is actively arguing for intelligence only or charisma only, except for the people (largely ignored) who are saying that the warlock shouldn't have a variable casting stat at all but did not mention what their static casting stat should be.
It is a very internet argument, do not recommend, much regret in my participating.
The problem, Kahbiel, is that every single time anyone tries to push or play the warlock as anything but a sex-crazed irresponsible-promise-making hooligan, they get roundly slapped and told "PLAY A GODDAMN WIZARD INSTEAD YOU *******". It was everywhere in the UA5 and UA7 warlock threads - "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WARLOCK EXACTLY AS IT'S WRITTEN IN THE 2014 BOOK THEN PLAY A FUKKIN' WIZARD AND JUST PRETEND YOU GOT A DEAL FROM CTHULHU OR WHATEVER".
It is maddening. And there's plenty of people in this thread pissing on the idea that warlocks can be anything but bedroom-chasing yayhoos. Not because that fits the class narrative, but because they don't want to give up their free access to the most powerful skillcheck stat in the game.
Yet again, I'm not against including the possibility of Intelligence as a casting stat for Warlocks, but having an insatiable need for knowledge and power does not necessarily mean the character has the intellectual abilities to gain that knowledge and power through on their own. If they did, they would have probably become Wizards.
I don't buy the logic that anyone with high Int would simply opt into Wizardry. Warlock...ery?... isn't just easy, it's fast. If you're young and reckless/impatient and want power immediately, you might find Hogwarts/Wayreth unappealing purely on those grounds even if you've got Hermione or Raistlin levels of innate talent.
Consider a recent canonical Warlock example, Wyll Ravengard from Baldurs Gate 3. As a literal teenager (17 years old!) he not only became a warlock, but a powerful one - strong enough to become a local hero and take down literal giants, at least until that pesky tadpole thing. He did that almost on the spur of a moment, without needing a whole bunch of study first.
That's the appeal of being a Warlock - it's a shortcut. Talented people can take shortcuts too, especially if they're desperate or thirsty to prove themselves. So I can see high Int being just as valid for a powerful Warlock as high Cha.
Yet again, I'm not against including the possibility of Intelligence as a casting stat for Warlocks, but having an insatiable need for knowledge and power does not necessarily mean the character has the intellectual abilities to gain that knowledge and power through on their own. If they did, they would have probably become Wizards.
I don't buy the logic that anyone with high Int would simply opt into Wizardry. Warlock...ery?... isn't just easy, it's fast. If you're young and reckless/impatient and want power immediately, you might find Hogwarts/Wayreth unappealing purely on those grounds even if you've got Hermione or Raistlin levels of innate talent.
Consider a recent canonical Warlock example, Wyll Ravengard from Baldurs Gate 3. As a literal teenager (17 years old!) he not only became a warlock, but a powerful one - strong enough to become a local hero and take down literal giants, at least until that pesky tadpole thing. He did that almost on the spur of a moment, without needing a whole bunch of study first.
That's the appeal of being a Warlock - it's a shortcut. Talented people can take shortcuts too, especially if they're desperate or thirsty to prove themselves. So I can see high Int being just as valid for a powerful Warlock as high Cha.
Sure, folks can be smart and enter into a pact, but I don't believe it is usually a prerequisite or the most important ability to be able to control and employ the powers granted by that pact. The fact that a smart person might make such a deal is certainly reasonable. The problem comes from the game, with most players wanting to prioritize other stats that provide more of a bonus, a problem with Intelligence in general , not with the fact that (in my opinion) Charisma is the most logical ability score for a Warlock's spellcasting ability.
With all that said, I have no problems with making the Warlock's spellcasting stat flexible, just not for the reasons people tend to argue. I'm fine with accommodate other people's views of how they want to build a character, and it is hard for me to believe that any exploits of combining Warlock with another Intelligence-based class would be any more of a problem than the multiple ways that multiclassing with other Charisma-based classes currently is.
The problem comes from the game, with most players wanting to prioritize other stats that provide more of a bonus, a problem with Intelligence in general , not with the fact that (in my opinion) Charisma is the most logical ability score for a Warlock's spellcasting ability.
I'd argue that Intelligence is more innately useful in 1DnD, now that we have a more codified way of using it (the Study Action, and accordingly, feats like Keen Mind and Observant.) More parties will thus want a "braniac" on staff, i.e. someone who does prioritize Int, as its essentially a license to legally metagame in limited ways - and Warlocks being able to fill that role will mean more variety and fun for everyone. Wizards are the most powerful class in the game, which honestly makes them boring for a lot of people if they're the only real "max Int" option.
The problem, Kahbiel, is that every single time anyone tries to push or play the warlock as anything but a sex-crazed irresponsible-promise-making hooligan, they get roundly slapped and told "PLAY A GODDAMN WIZARD INSTEAD YOU *******". It was everywhere in the UA5 and UA7 warlock threads - "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WARLOCK EXACTLY AS IT'S WRITTEN IN THE 2014 BOOK THEN PLAY A FUKKIN' WIZARD AND JUST PRETEND YOU GOT A DEAL FROM CTHULHU OR WHATEVER".
It is maddening. And there's plenty of people in this thread pissing on the idea that warlocks can be anything but bedroom-chasing yayhoos. Not because that fits the class narrative, but because they don't want to give up their free access to the most powerful skillcheck stat in the game.
I'm sorry that you felt persecuted for wanting to play a warlock with a low charisma in other threads. No one is saying anything remotely like that here.
As far as intelligence in general goes, I kind of agree. Intelligence is a dump stat for virtually everyone but the one class + few subclasses that utilize it for casting. But that's not a problem with the warlock, or even charisma. That's a problem with D&D having no idea why it has an intelligence score period and nothing for mental ability scores to do outside of spellcasting and skill checks. Your real problem with charisma seems to be that it provides players/characters without outsize agency that other abilities, especially intelligence, don't. And I agree, that's a fair, legitimate point!
But making one class dependent on intelligence doesn't do anything close to actually solving that problem.
The only way that gets fixes is if the game magically gets serious about the parity between its combat/exploration/social pillars and introduces a whole lot more mechanical widgets and systems to give the exploration and social conflict pillars equal weight to combat. Until that happens, social skills and charisma will be substantially more useful than they should be, and intelligence will remain a dump stat for any character that doesn't depend on it for their combat abilities.
The problem comes from the game, with most players wanting to prioritize other stats that provide more of a bonus, a problem with Intelligence in general , not with the fact that (in my opinion) Charisma is the most logical ability score for a Warlock's spellcasting ability.
I'd argue that Intelligence is more innately useful in 1DnD, now that we have a more codified way of using it (the Study Action, and accordingly, feats like Keen Mind and Observant.) More parties will thus want a "braniac" on staff, i.e. someone who does prioritize Int, as its essentially a license to legally metagame in limited ways - and Warlocks being able to fill that role will mean more variety and fun for everyone. Wizards are the most powerful class in the game, which honestly makes them boring for a lot of people if they're the only real "max Int" option.
Hopefully that will lead to fewer folks (including those playing Warlocks) ignoring Intelligence, whether or not it is a primary stat for them. I guess the DMs in games I play in generally already make knowledge skills fairly important, and due to that I rarely dump it even when not playing a Wizard or Artificer. Of course, with expertise seeming to be far more common in 1DnD, the base ability score may not land up being quite as important, meaning smart Rogues, Rangers, and Bards in particular can easily make up for being a few points behind the Wizard in Intelligence.
Very much in agreement that the flexible stat for casting for warlocks was very good - mechanically and role-playing-wise. I hope it's brought back.
Don't agree with thinking that artificer is dead for D&D 2024+. It's a WILDLY popular class; while it won't be a core class in the upcoming PHB, I feel certain we'll get it in a supplement not long after.
(For the record, I don't care for the class and personally don't care if it doesn't come back...but I have to think it will, given how much it's liked.)
Which is exactly wrong. The fundamental archetype is a person who is busting their ass, studying, investigating, searching out power and knowledge, which is intelligence. Thier absolute core is the intelligence stat.. The I'm a strong willed force of personality is no where in the class.
Nah. The search for power or knowledge isn't ability score relevant, that's a question of ambition.
Intelligence is grasping and utilizing that knowledge, which could be a warlock (and part of why I think an Int or Wis warlock could make sense) but the classic archetype of that sort of mental model is Wizard. On the other hand "insatiable need" and a "thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked with mere study and research" sounds like an individual whose force of will is propelling them towards a deeper but more fraught connection to the power of their patron. Which sounds like a charisma focus.
Sure, the Warlock may have their power because they desperately and successfully sought out eldritch secrets, but they're also equally likely to have just bumbled their way into a Seelie court to make a deal with an Archfey lord, or been offered the right deal when the wrong fiend was around. There are infinite ways a warlock might come into power, but the expression of that power has nothing to do with how they came to it. Funneling and using that alien energy, which by all rights the warlock should have no command over, is all about exerting your force of will; taming the howling fire you've won to put to your own use. The mental ability that most closely maps to exerting dominance is charisma.
Plastic Man can't reach that far. Insatiable need, thirst for knowledge and power doesn't show force of will it shows the opposite of that. Someone with a force of will can resist their insatiable thirsts. It does show someone with intellectual curiosity though .
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Once more, having high CHA does not automatically make you a smooth-talker; high CHA is stage presence, skill proficiency is having good material, if that analogy helps. And the thing about WIS is that on the casting side of the street it’s meant to represent more the spiritual side of things; Clerics attune with their deity/domain, Druids and Rangers attune with nature. With Sorcerers, there’s no ongoing external component, it’s all internal. Thus they don’t use WIS, and because part of the point of the class at creation was to be distinct from Wizards, they don’t use INT. Once more, CHA is not only the closest one for their dynamic, it’s also the only one left.
I find it interesting that you're trying to say that having Charisma doesn't mean that someone is charismatic. The main use of Charisma (outside of spellcasting / class features like auras) in D&D is in social influence skill checks. If you have a high Charisma score, you WILL be personable. By definition. Furthermore, Sorcerers have an affinity for Deception, Insight, Intimidation and Persuasion skills, four of the six skill options. Ignoring this aspect is being highly disingenuous.
Even if you want to reduce Charisma to "force of personality" - I feel compelled to point out that "force of personality" is synonymous with "confidence." That is very much still against the examples I suggested. Carrie did not have a strong "force of personality" - she had a broken one from abuse and bullying and was lashing out at her tormentors. There's nothing about being a mutant that should automatically translate into confidence.
That's the problem. Sorcerers don't just "will the magic to be." That implies you're just warping reality to however you want your imagination to work.
With a sorcerer... Something shoved magic into your body - sometimes, its your genetics, but other times its a mutation from magical radiation. And now, you have to push that magic from inside your body out.
Its a lot like being a monk, in a way. You have magic in your body (ki, sorcery) and your goal is to shove the magic from inside the body out of it. Sorcerers are just a bit more explosive about how they do it, and less martial-artsy.
Hmm... that's how they did it in 3e, but that's demonstratively untrue in 5e. Paladins certainly have no issue with divinely granted power and Charisma. Bards in 5e are powered outright by the academic study magic (they're called bardic colleges for a reason), especially Words of Power, but they're also Charisma based.
5e casting stat is more about being true to the class fantasy and tropes as well as being tied to the classic attributes of certain skills - bard is Charisma because Perform (as well as things like oratory) are Charisma. Wizards are INT because its is all about that knowledge. Paladins are all about being knights in shining armor, with a dash of Prince Charming and maybe King Arthur as part of the class fantasy. Druids and rangers are all about listening to nature.
With the warlock, there's a good number of people that see it as having the power come from bargains specifically, rather than study. The iconic warlock (Farideh, the tiefling in the core book) has spells imprinted into her mind by her Patron, no study necessary. She's got a book of rituals (thanks, 4e feat) but her actual class and all her battle spells had zero study. She had to directly con her cambion patron into give her new spells every time. And you see the Warlock begging their patron for extra stuff in the class features. This is why lots of people want a charismatic warlock - they see the convincing part as primary, not magic studies.
Which brings me back to the original problem - what is the class fantasy of the sorcerer, and why should it be tied to Charisma? Self study (INT), self-awareness (WIS) are just as good of explanations as self-confidence (CHA). Saying, "Well, because why not!" isn't a very satisfying answer.
Keep in mind that only Fighter, Cleric and Magic User (wizard) were part of the original system; even Thief (rogue) was a later addition, though it was a very early addition. And yet other classes like Artificer, Bard, etc. don't have this issue.
With warlock the problem isn't shoehorning - its people fundamentally disagreeing on what the class fantasy of the warlock is. Is it a type of magic scholar or something akin to a dark priest?
With Sorcerer, the issue is... no one knows what to do with the class mechanics, because they change with every single edition its been out, which includes every D&D clone.
Why is it so freaking terrible to want a warlock class that isn't actively pushed away from having an Intelligence score higher than 6?
The book outright says "DELVERS INTO SECRETS", with the line "Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power, which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives" front and center. Knowledge and power. KNOWLEDGE and power. So why is the class actively ******* steered away from ever having 'Knowledge' and shoved towards being a bumbling horny idiot?
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Which is exactly wrong. The fundamental archetype is a person who is busting their ass, studying, investigating, searching out power and knowledge, which is intelligence. Thier absolute core is the intelligence stat.. The I'm a strong willed force of personality is no where in the class.
So there’s a great deal of your premise that is just fundamentally a strawman, but to get to the heart of why Warlocks seeking knowledge does not equate to INT, let’s look a Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Without getting too in-depth, the main villain wants to acquire all knowledge and become God, and to that end he prepares this massive ritual. When he’s defeated he ends up facing the being who embodies that knowledge, and is called out for the fact that he never actually tried to learn and grow independently to reach his goal, he just attempted to take the knowledge outright. And with Warlocks it’s a similar deal; they aren’t framed as looking to work through trial and error to learn magic, they’re looking for a “do this to gain that power” explanation. They’re looking to find a macro someone else already made rather than looking to learn how to code their own program.
Obviously this doesn’t mean you can’t say your Warlock is a diligent student of arcana (I’ve currently got one with 16 INT I’m playing), but the formative concept of the class is a caster who is looking for the end result of “how do I use magic for X” while skipping the middle process of solving the problem on their own.
I don't disagree with you until the horny jumps up from behind your argument shouting "booga booga!"
high charisma suggests better success with charisma checks. sure, it could mean extrovert and/or manipulative. but it could also cover someone with a great deal of social awareness who isn't automatically someone that likes loud music, public speaking, or hugs even. their "social awareness" might be masking trauma rather than born-with-it gregariousness.
a good conversation to have, regardless.
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Yet again, I'm not against including the possibility of Intelligence as a casting stat for Warlocks, but having an insatiable need for knowledge and power does not necessarily mean the character has the intellectual abilities to gain that knowledge and power through on their own. If they did, they would have probably become Wizards. Warlocks may have made great efforts to uncover what led them to their patron, but intelligence is not the crucial ability they need to control that power (since they did not really get the power from study, but bargained for it).
Now the fact that in most game situations, Intelligence is less useful than Charisma (as well as many other ability scores) does mean that it is often used as a dump stat for Warlocks, which is unfortunate (although I have played quite successful and powerful Warlocks with Intelligence scores that are above the average). It is also unfortunate that the skills related to Charisma tend to lead down the path of some folks seeing it as merely surface beauty and persuasiveness (which it certainly can also be), but Charisma can and should be a mental stat with just as much depth as Intelligence and Wisdom. Of course, with that being said, the rules structure certainly encourages the problems you cite, and efforts should be made in general to counteract that.
Nah. The search for power or knowledge isn't ability score relevant, that's a question of ambition.
Intelligence is grasping and utilizing that knowledge, which could be a warlock (and part of why I think an Int or Wis warlock could make sense) but the classic archetype of that sort of mental model is Wizard. On the other hand "insatiable need" and a "thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked with mere study and research" sounds like an individual whose force of will is propelling them towards a deeper but more fraught connection to the power of their patron. Which sounds like a charisma focus.
Sure, the Warlock may have their power because they desperately and successfully sought out eldritch secrets, but they're also equally likely to have just bumbled their way into a Seelie court to make a deal with an Archfey lord, or been offered the right deal when the wrong fiend was around. There are infinite ways a warlock might come into power, but the expression of that power has nothing to do with how they came to it. Funneling and using that alien energy, which by all rights the warlock should have no command over, is all about exerting your force of will; taming the howling fire you've won to put to your own use. The mental ability that most closely maps to exerting dominance is charisma.
That’s precisely why any of the three Spellcasting stats can make sense for a Warlock, and why they should be able to choose their Spellcasting stat.
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Yes, as I said on my other posts, I agree the warlock should be able to choose between Int/Wis/Cha for their spellcasting stat.
It seems like the debate at this point is (pointlessly, pedantically) over whether charisma or intelligence makes more sense if we had to choose one. I don't think anyone is actively arguing for intelligence only or charisma only, except for the people (largely ignored) who are saying that the warlock shouldn't have a variable casting stat at all but did not mention what their static casting stat should be.
It is a very internet argument, do not recommend, much regret in my participating.
The problem, Kahbiel, is that every single time anyone tries to push or play the warlock as anything but a sex-crazed irresponsible-promise-making hooligan, they get roundly slapped and told "PLAY A GODDAMN WIZARD INSTEAD YOU *******". It was everywhere in the UA5 and UA7 warlock threads - "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WARLOCK EXACTLY AS IT'S WRITTEN IN THE 2014 BOOK THEN PLAY A FUKKIN' WIZARD AND JUST PRETEND YOU GOT A DEAL FROM CTHULHU OR WHATEVER".
It is maddening. And there's plenty of people in this thread pissing on the idea that warlocks can be anything but bedroom-chasing yayhoos. Not because that fits the class narrative, but because they don't want to give up their free access to the most powerful skillcheck stat in the game.
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I don't buy the logic that anyone with high Int would simply opt into Wizardry. Warlock...ery?... isn't just easy, it's fast. If you're young and reckless/impatient and want power immediately, you might find Hogwarts/Wayreth unappealing purely on those grounds even if you've got Hermione or Raistlin levels of innate talent.
Consider a recent canonical Warlock example, Wyll Ravengard from Baldurs Gate 3. As a literal teenager (17 years old!) he not only became a warlock, but a powerful one - strong enough to become a local hero and take down literal giants, at least until that pesky tadpole thing. He did that almost on the spur of a moment, without needing a whole bunch of study first.
That's the appeal of being a Warlock - it's a shortcut. Talented people can take shortcuts too, especially if they're desperate or thirsty to prove themselves. So I can see high Int being just as valid for a powerful Warlock as high Cha.
Yeah, warlocks should definitely get to choose their casting stat.
Sure, folks can be smart and enter into a pact, but I don't believe it is usually a prerequisite or the most important ability to be able to control and employ the powers granted by that pact. The fact that a smart person might make such a deal is certainly reasonable. The problem comes from the game, with most players wanting to prioritize other stats that provide more of a bonus, a problem with Intelligence in general , not with the fact that (in my opinion) Charisma is the most logical ability score for a Warlock's spellcasting ability.
With all that said, I have no problems with making the Warlock's spellcasting stat flexible, just not for the reasons people tend to argue. I'm fine with accommodate other people's views of how they want to build a character, and it is hard for me to believe that any exploits of combining Warlock with another Intelligence-based class would be any more of a problem than the multiple ways that multiclassing with other Charisma-based classes currently is.
I'd argue that Intelligence is more innately useful in 1DnD, now that we have a more codified way of using it (the Study Action, and accordingly, feats like Keen Mind and Observant.) More parties will thus want a "braniac" on staff, i.e. someone who does prioritize Int, as its essentially a license to legally metagame in limited ways - and Warlocks being able to fill that role will mean more variety and fun for everyone. Wizards are the most powerful class in the game, which honestly makes them boring for a lot of people if they're the only real "max Int" option.
I'm sorry that you felt persecuted for wanting to play a warlock with a low charisma in other threads. No one is saying anything remotely like that here.
As far as intelligence in general goes, I kind of agree. Intelligence is a dump stat for virtually everyone but the one class + few subclasses that utilize it for casting. But that's not a problem with the warlock, or even charisma. That's a problem with D&D having no idea why it has an intelligence score period and nothing for mental ability scores to do outside of spellcasting and skill checks. Your real problem with charisma seems to be that it provides players/characters without outsize agency that other abilities, especially intelligence, don't. And I agree, that's a fair, legitimate point!
But making one class dependent on intelligence doesn't do anything close to actually solving that problem.
The only way that gets fixes is if the game magically gets serious about the parity between its combat/exploration/social pillars and introduces a whole lot more mechanical widgets and systems to give the exploration and social conflict pillars equal weight to combat. Until that happens, social skills and charisma will be substantially more useful than they should be, and intelligence will remain a dump stat for any character that doesn't depend on it for their combat abilities.
Hopefully that will lead to fewer folks (including those playing Warlocks) ignoring Intelligence, whether or not it is a primary stat for them. I guess the DMs in games I play in generally already make knowledge skills fairly important, and due to that I rarely dump it even when not playing a Wizard or Artificer. Of course, with expertise seeming to be far more common in 1DnD, the base ability score may not land up being quite as important, meaning smart Rogues, Rangers, and Bards in particular can easily make up for being a few points behind the Wizard in Intelligence.
Some WIS saves should just be INT saves.
I feel Insight could also become INT tbh.
Very much in agreement that the flexible stat for casting for warlocks was very good - mechanically and role-playing-wise. I hope it's brought back.
Don't agree with thinking that artificer is dead for D&D 2024+. It's a WILDLY popular class; while it won't be a core class in the upcoming PHB, I feel certain we'll get it in a supplement not long after.
(For the record, I don't care for the class and personally don't care if it doesn't come back...but I have to think it will, given how much it's liked.)
Plastic Man can't reach that far. Insatiable need, thirst for knowledge and power doesn't show force of will it shows the opposite of that. Someone with a force of will can resist their insatiable thirsts. It does show someone with intellectual curiosity though .