I assume that things like Horizon Walker Ranger or Oath of Conquest Paladin will no longer be supported.
it looks like they trimmed subclasses from almost every class.
Hmmm.
All existing subclasses will be compatible with the revised 5e rules. Not a single existing subclass is being trimmed - some are being updated and some new ones are being added, but you’ll be free to use any of your existing content.
Well, for one, the 2014 versions of Horizon Walker and Oath of Conquest will still be compatible with the new classes.
For two, those subclasses weren't in the 2014 PHB. The subclasses that are being playtested are specifically for the PHB. There were 41 subclasses in the 2014 PHB, whereas we've been promised 48 in the new PHB, 4 for every class. Not only is this a net positive of 7 subclasses, but it also means that Wizard (8 subclasses) and Cleric (7 subclasses) have to share with Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Ranger, and Sorcerer, each of whom had 2 subclasses, and the rest of the classes, which weighed in at 3.
So, no, they definitely aren't trimming subclasses.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I assume that things like Horizon Walker Ranger or Oath of Conquest Paladin will no longer be supported.
it looks like they trimmed subclasses from almost every class.
Hmmm.
The playtest material is supposed to represent the subclasses that would be in the updated Players Handbook. The 2014 PHB only has 2-3 subclasses per class, so I'm pretty sure the UA is actually a slight increase over current.
Both Horizon Walker and Oath of Conquest are from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, so would be expected to not be in the playtest.
Ah, ok, I was just reading the, “at third level, you will choose from the following subclasses, “ and then it is a shorter list.
I assumed that was that. Thanks for clarifying
Also keep in mind that these are only going to be the subclasses that are slated for the 2024 Player Handbook. I haven’t counted them in a while but if I am remembering it right, the plan is to have more subclasses included in the 2024 release than what is in the 2014 PHB.
Edit: DrJawaPhD beat me by mere minutes. Posted while I was still typing. The sneaky devil.
I assume that things like Horizon Walker Ranger or Oath of Conquest Paladin will no longer be supported.
it looks like they trimmed subclasses from almost every class.
Hmmm.
No, those are still compatible. But they can't put every subclass they've ever printed + new ones into the core book, that would be extreme bloat. The others, if they need updating, will be updated later.
I mean, I’m not exactly sure how the interplay between previous subclasses and the updated core features will pan out; Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks have the bump of subclasses coming online at 3rd level now, plus there might be some other odd interactions depending on how things are structured in the final version. Now, neither the system nor the power level are being changed so drastically that the current iterations of the classes won’t be compatible, so worst case you can just keep using those for subclasses that aren’t adapted.
So some classes do have fewer PHB subclasses in 2024. Specifically the Cleric and Wizard which used to have individual subclasses for every domain/school. The tradeoff is that every class will now have 4 subclasses for 48 - 8 more than were in PHB 2014. Previously, most of the classes only had at most 3 subclasses. Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Ranger and Sorcerer only had 2 subclasses each. That's almost half the classes accounting for only 10 subclasses total. Clerics and Wizards accounted for 15 of the 40 PHB subclasses, over a 3rd of the total by themselves. The last 5 (fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Warlock) had only 3 subclasses each
So unless you exclusively played Clerics and Wizards from the 2014 PHB, you are now guaranteed to get at least one more subclass and many classes will see their subclass options double compared to the 2014 PHB.
This is why I'm of the opinion that subclasses for Wizard Schools and Cleric Domains was a mistake. Yes, the school specialization and domains should have an effect, modifying spell lists and similar stuff at 1st level. But subclasses chosen at level 3 should be more like the War Wizard or Order of the Scribe and the like. Say you have a War Wizard with a specialty in Necromancy, or a Mendicant Cleric with the domain of Grave. That kind of thing.
I don’t believe you are suppose to use subclasses made before 2024 on the 2024 class framework. I think you can just play a 2014 class and subclass along side 2024 classes and subclasses. I think they had use play test some of it that way because those classes already worked on the new framework naturally. I guess we will know for sure when the new books come out, but I believe if you want to play Tempest or Knowledge domain Cleric you have to use 2014 class framework.
I don’t believe you are suppose to use subclasses made before 2024 on the 2024 class framework. I think you can just play a 2014 class and subclass along side 2024 classes and subclasses. I think they had use play test some of it that way because those classes already worked on the new framework naturally. I guess we will know for sure when the new books come out, but I believe if you want to play Tempest or Knowledge domain Cleric you have to use 2014 class framework.
I thought it was said that making subclasses backwards compatible was a big reason they moved away from universal subclass progression.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Sorcerer and Warlock still don't get their subclass until 3 as of the last UA with class materials, so I'm not sure exactly what they're thinking in terms of core features/subclass crossover between the two iterations. Personally, I'd probably default to all one way or the other, potentially allowing case by case crossover.
I don’t believe you are suppose to use subclasses made before 2024 on the 2024 class framework. I think you can just play a 2014 class and subclass along side 2024 classes and subclasses. I think they had use play test some of it that way because those classes already worked on the new framework naturally. I guess we will know for sure when the new books come out, but I believe if you want to play Tempest or Knowledge domain Cleric you have to use 2014 class framework.
I thought it was said that making subclasses backwards compatible was a big reason they moved away from universal subclass progression.
If that was the reason they failed. There are some classes it doesn’t work for. Maybe it’s for every class except Cleric and Warlock. Just trying to patchwork those 1st level features to 3rd level doesn’t work on all of the subclasses. This might also be a problem for Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard subclasses as well. Off the top of my head I think it would be fine to use any 2014 Sorcerer on a 2024 frame by just delaying the first level features until 3rd level. I think the problem with Clerics is the 2nd level features. They are all subclass specific, but you don’t have a subclass until 3rd level with the 2024 frame.
My understanding for dropping universal subclass progression was because it messed up some classes early progression. I remember the Bard being bad moving Jack of all trades to 5th level. Cleric, Paladin and Sorcerers Capstones all got ruined by being scaled down to 14th level. Maybe they should have created and additional feature for everyone and gave subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Because truly making 18th and 20th level subclass feature work at 14th level was impossible.
Bard was honestly an easy fix. Move Jack of all trades back to 2nd level. I wanted universal progression to work.
I don’t believe you are suppose to use subclasses made before 2024 on the 2024 class framework. I think you can just play a 2014 class and subclass along side 2024 classes and subclasses. I think they had use play test some of it that way because those classes already worked on the new framework naturally. I guess we will know for sure when the new books come out, but I believe if you want to play Tempest or Knowledge domain Cleric you have to use 2014 class framework.
I thought it was said that making subclasses backwards compatible was a big reason they moved away from universal subclass progression.
If that was the reason they failed. There are some classes it doesn’t work for. Maybe it’s for every class except Cleric and Warlock. Just trying to patchwork those 1st level features to 3rd level doesn’t work on all of the subclasses. This might also be a problem for Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard subclasses as well. Off the top of my head I think it would be fine to use any 2014 Sorcerer on a 2024 frame by just delaying the first level features until 3rd level. I think the problem with Clerics is the 2nd level features. They are all subclass specific, but you don’t have a subclass until 3rd level with the 2024 frame.
My understanding for dropping universal subclass progression was because it messed up some classes early progression. I remember the Bard being bad moving Jack of all trades to 5th level. Cleric, Paladin and Sorcerers Capstones all got ruined by being scaled down to 14th level. Maybe they should have created and additional feature for everyone and gave subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Because truly making 18th and 20th level subclass feature work at 14th level was impossible.
Bard was honestly an easy fix. Move Jack of all trades back to 2nd level. I wanted universal progression to work.
You are correct. If you want to play a pre-2024 subclass that is not in the 2024 PHB then you play it strictly as it is now, 2014 class/subclass. I guess, If the subclass come online at level 3 in the 2014 PHB then it could be used with the 2024 class, but I don’t know if there could be weird interactions.
I also wish they could have kept the universal progression and just put out a conversion PDF saying for X subclass that didn’t fit, put this feature at Y level, that feature moves to Z level etc.
I don’t believe you are suppose to use subclasses made before 2024 on the 2024 class framework. I think you can just play a 2014 class and subclass along side 2024 classes and subclasses. I think they had use play test some of it that way because those classes already worked on the new framework naturally. I guess we will know for sure when the new books come out, but I believe if you want to play Tempest or Knowledge domain Cleric you have to use 2014 class framework.
I thought it was said that making subclasses backwards compatible was a big reason they moved away from universal subclass progression.
Not exactly, its more like, its somewhat easier, and some people complained.
the overall thinking on design in 5e revision is not about best design, its about resources to do it properly, and how much more liked is it than 5e. If its liked only 10-20% more, and uses more resources to execute, they'll drop it, even if its abetter/more liked design.
Also for progression satisfaction it varied between classes.
the initial plan was, make the best changes, then provide an appendix with tips for conversion. By switching to baseline progression, they may have gone from 75% satisfaction with progression to 60%, but overall satisfaction is still high, and they save pages, and designer time formalizing conversion. At this stage, they value designer time most of all. They are about 8-9 months from final production, probably 5-6 months from wanting the books mostly written. And they still aren't settled on core class design.
to me, playing the latest UAs, progression is definitely inferior, but its also no worse than 5e (because its the same) Thats the type of thinking it was at the end of the day.
I'll also say, their development pipeline is pretty weak, probably due to not really needing that much design and feedback in a long time. They mostly needed 80% writers, artists, and graphic designers for the past 10 years. They have poor infrastructure for feedback, and could do with at least twice as many game design focused staff. MTG pumps out 5x+ the game design of dnd source books in 3 month increments.
My understanding for dropping universal subclass progression was because it messed up some classes early progression. I remember the Bard being bad moving Jack of all trades to 5th level. Cleric, Paladin and Sorcerers Capstones all got ruined by being scaled down to 14th level. Maybe they should have created and additional feature for everyone and gave subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Because truly making 18th and 20th level subclass feature work at 14th level was impossible
Respectfully, most 18th-20th level class and subclass features were absolutely terrible and were still often underwhelming at 14th level. The outliers that actually deserved to stay at 20th level were often not good enough to make up for the severely underpowered features those classes had at lower levels.
Barbarian getting 24 Strength and Constitution at level 20 is nice, but by the time you get there the Barbarian Class has very few abilities that would make good use of either stat bump. And then you have utterly miserable level 20 capstones for the Bard, Monk, Fighter, Sorcerer, and Warlock.
I assume that things like Horizon Walker Ranger or Oath of Conquest Paladin will no longer be supported.
it looks like they trimmed subclasses from almost every class.
Hmmm.
All existing subclasses will be compatible with the revised 5e rules. Not a single existing subclass is being trimmed - some are being updated and some new ones are being added, but you’ll be free to use any of your existing content.
Ah, ok, I was just reading the, “at third level, you will choose from the following subclasses, “ and then it is a shorter list.
I assumed that was that. Thanks for clarifying
Well, for one, the 2014 versions of Horizon Walker and Oath of Conquest will still be compatible with the new classes.
For two, those subclasses weren't in the 2014 PHB. The subclasses that are being playtested are specifically for the PHB. There were 41 subclasses in the 2014 PHB, whereas we've been promised 48 in the new PHB, 4 for every class. Not only is this a net positive of 7 subclasses, but it also means that Wizard (8 subclasses) and Cleric (7 subclasses) have to share with Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Ranger, and Sorcerer, each of whom had 2 subclasses, and the rest of the classes, which weighed in at 3.
So, no, they definitely aren't trimming subclasses.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The playtest material is supposed to represent the subclasses that would be in the updated Players Handbook. The 2014 PHB only has 2-3 subclasses per class, so I'm pretty sure the UA is actually a slight increase over current.
Both Horizon Walker and Oath of Conquest are from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, so would be expected to not be in the playtest.
Also keep in mind that these are only going to be the subclasses that are slated for the 2024 Player Handbook. I haven’t counted them in a while but if I am remembering it right, the plan is to have more subclasses included in the 2024 release than what is in the 2014 PHB.
Edit: DrJawaPhD beat me by mere minutes. Posted while I was still typing. The sneaky devil.
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No, those are still compatible. But they can't put every subclass they've ever printed + new ones into the core book, that would be extreme bloat. The others, if they need updating, will be updated later.
I mean, I’m not exactly sure how the interplay between previous subclasses and the updated core features will pan out; Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks have the bump of subclasses coming online at 3rd level now, plus there might be some other odd interactions depending on how things are structured in the final version. Now, neither the system nor the power level are being changed so drastically that the current iterations of the classes won’t be compatible, so worst case you can just keep using those for subclasses that aren’t adapted.
So some classes do have fewer PHB subclasses in 2024. Specifically the Cleric and Wizard which used to have individual subclasses for every domain/school. The tradeoff is that every class will now have 4 subclasses for 48 - 8 more than were in PHB 2014. Previously, most of the classes only had at most 3 subclasses. Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Ranger and Sorcerer only had 2 subclasses each. That's almost half the classes accounting for only 10 subclasses total. Clerics and Wizards accounted for 15 of the 40 PHB subclasses, over a 3rd of the total by themselves. The last 5 (fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Warlock) had only 3 subclasses each
So unless you exclusively played Clerics and Wizards from the 2014 PHB, you are now guaranteed to get at least one more subclass and many classes will see their subclass options double compared to the 2014 PHB.
This is why I'm of the opinion that subclasses for Wizard Schools and Cleric Domains was a mistake. Yes, the school specialization and domains should have an effect, modifying spell lists and similar stuff at 1st level. But subclasses chosen at level 3 should be more like the War Wizard or Order of the Scribe and the like. Say you have a War Wizard with a specialty in Necromancy, or a Mendicant Cleric with the domain of Grave. That kind of thing.
I don’t believe you are suppose to use subclasses made before 2024 on the 2024 class framework. I think you can just play a 2014 class and subclass along side 2024 classes and subclasses. I think they had use play test some of it that way because those classes already worked on the new framework naturally. I guess we will know for sure when the new books come out, but I believe if you want to play Tempest or Knowledge domain Cleric you have to use 2014 class framework.
I thought it was said that making subclasses backwards compatible was a big reason they moved away from universal subclass progression.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Sorcerer and Warlock still don't get their subclass until 3 as of the last UA with class materials, so I'm not sure exactly what they're thinking in terms of core features/subclass crossover between the two iterations. Personally, I'd probably default to all one way or the other, potentially allowing case by case crossover.
If that was the reason they failed. There are some classes it doesn’t work for. Maybe it’s for every class except Cleric and Warlock. Just trying to patchwork those 1st level features to 3rd level doesn’t work on all of the subclasses. This might also be a problem for Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard subclasses as well. Off the top of my head I think it would be fine to use any 2014 Sorcerer on a 2024 frame by just delaying the first level features until 3rd level. I think the problem with Clerics is the 2nd level features. They are all subclass specific, but you don’t have a subclass until 3rd level with the 2024 frame.
My understanding for dropping universal subclass progression was because it messed up some classes early progression. I remember the Bard being bad moving Jack of all trades to 5th level. Cleric, Paladin and Sorcerers Capstones all got ruined by being scaled down to 14th level. Maybe they should have created and additional feature for everyone and gave subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Because truly making 18th and 20th level subclass feature work at 14th level was impossible.
Bard was honestly an easy fix. Move Jack of all trades back to 2nd level. I wanted universal progression to work.
You are correct. If you want to play a pre-2024 subclass that is not in the 2024 PHB then you play it strictly as it is now, 2014 class/subclass. I guess, If the subclass come online at level 3 in the 2014 PHB then it could be used with the 2024 class, but I don’t know if there could be weird interactions.
I also wish they could have kept the universal progression and just put out a conversion PDF saying for X subclass that didn’t fit, put this feature at Y level, that feature moves to Z level etc.
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Not exactly, its more like, its somewhat easier, and some people complained.
the overall thinking on design in 5e revision is not about best design, its about resources to do it properly, and how much more liked is it than 5e. If its liked only 10-20% more, and uses more resources to execute, they'll drop it, even if its abetter/more liked design.
Also for progression satisfaction it varied between classes.
the initial plan was, make the best changes, then provide an appendix with tips for conversion. By switching to baseline progression, they may have gone from 75% satisfaction with progression to 60%, but overall satisfaction is still high, and they save pages, and designer time formalizing conversion. At this stage, they value designer time most of all. They are about 8-9 months from final production, probably 5-6 months from wanting the books mostly written. And they still aren't settled on core class design.
to me, playing the latest UAs, progression is definitely inferior, but its also no worse than 5e (because its the same) Thats the type of thinking it was at the end of the day.
I'll also say, their development pipeline is pretty weak, probably due to not really needing that much design and feedback in a long time. They mostly needed 80% writers, artists, and graphic designers for the past 10 years. They have poor infrastructure for feedback, and could do with at least twice as many game design focused staff. MTG pumps out 5x+ the game design of dnd source books in 3 month increments.
Respectfully, most 18th-20th level class and subclass features were absolutely terrible and were still often underwhelming at 14th level. The outliers that actually deserved to stay at 20th level were often not good enough to make up for the severely underpowered features those classes had at lower levels.
Barbarian getting 24 Strength and Constitution at level 20 is nice, but by the time you get there the Barbarian Class has very few abilities that would make good use of either stat bump. And then you have utterly miserable level 20 capstones for the Bard, Monk, Fighter, Sorcerer, and Warlock.
I was speaking specifically about the subclass capstones.