I’m am all for different and new mechanics, but this is trash,. Calling it a different rhythm is wrong. It’s more like doesn’t work at most tables because it will be weak unless you are an optimizer or your DM goes out of their way to make sure you get to have multiple brews going at once. If your DM likes random encounters you might have 0 brews drank. If it’s early in the day. Or worse you may have gamed for 2 brews and because it’s later than 8 hours from the first you still only have 1 active. It’s bad design by their own philosophy. At 11th when you get Blue Lightning instead increasing your power it becomes the best combat choice and competes with your other powers. That is why I said they should just give you that when you drink another brew. You could still try to combine the other powers, but you know you have blue lightning as well, so even if you can’t actually get 2 brews active at the same time you would have at least 2 powers active at the same time at 11th level and beyond. Thankfully it is playtest and I will be letting them know I think it’s not fun, unnecessarily complicated, and wouldn’t work at my table unless the player was an optimizer or I went out of my way to remind them and give them additional short rest.
how do you figure its an additional short rest? it works after a long rest or a short rest, not only after short rests. So it starts the day with one effect, after the first short rests per day, they have 2 effects. Having zero short rests per day is not really normal.
Short rests are baseline the main way for classes to recover HP in the game. You should probably be encouraging or giving at least 1 short rests regardless of this class
short rests are also generally decided by the players, with the DM modifying it by interupting the rest, And i wouldnt interrupt 100% of short rests as a DM. The big worry is actually that players themselves often get swept in the flow and forget, or dont short rest. But i think thats less common in 2024 with 90% classes gaining back something onSR even if they don't need Hp
1. Wrong. You don’t start the day with any brew power active. If you are attacked shortly after a long rest you have the brew made, but not drank. 2. Oh at least 1 rest a day, cool. That still doesn’t mean this monk would have two brew powers active when they are useable. That relies on the DM placing combat within certain time windows. 3. The problem you are refusing to acknowledge is the player who has combat before their first short rest, and the player that has 2 short rest before one big combat would have vastly different experiences with this subclass. Also from my play experience no one SR after non combat encounters unless the take damage.
I’m am all for different and new mechanics, but this is trash,. Calling it a different rhythm is wrong. It’s more like doesn’t work at most tables because it will be weak unless you are an optimizer or your DM goes out of their way to make sure you get to have multiple brews going at once. If your DM likes random encounters you might have 0 brews drank. If it’s early in the day. Or worse you may have gamed for 2 brews and because it’s later than 8 hours from the first you still only have 1 active. It’s bad design by their own philosophy. At 11th when you get Blue Lightning instead increasing your power it becomes the best combat choice and competes with your other powers. That is why I said they should just give you that when you drink another brew. You could still try to combine the other powers, but you know you have blue lightning as well, so even if you can’t actually get 2 brews active at the same time you would have at least 2 powers active at the same time at 11th level and beyond. Thankfully it is playtest and I will be letting them know I think it’s not fun, unnecessarily complicated, and wouldn’t work at my table unless the player was an optimizer or I went out of my way to remind them and give them additional short rest.
how do you figure its an additional short rest? it works after a long rest or a short rest, not only after short rests. So it starts the day with one effect, after the first short rests per day, they have 2 effects. Having zero short rests per day is not really normal.
Short rests are baseline the main way for classes to recover HP in the game. You should probably be encouraging or giving at least 1 short rests regardless of this class
short rests are also generally decided by the players, with the DM modifying it by interupting the rest, And i wouldnt interrupt 100% of short rests as a DM. The big worry is actually that players themselves often get swept in the flow and forget, or dont short rest. But i think thats less common in 2024 with 90% classes gaining back something onSR even if they don't need Hp
1. Wrong. You don’t start the day with any brew power active. If you are attacked shortly after a long rest you have the brew made, but not drank. 2. Oh at least 1 rest a day, cool. That still doesn’t mean this monk would have two brew powers active when they are useable. That relies on the DM placing combat within certain time windows. 3. The problem you are refusing to acknowledge is the player who has combat before their first short rest, and the player that has 2 short rest before one big combat would have vastly different experiences with this subclass. Also from my play experience no one SR after non combat encounters unless the take damage.
at the end of any long rest/ short rest, you can create a brew, it tajes 1 minute to consume a brew. Unless you are literally going to as DM decide that combat occurs at the literal 6th hour, but before a single minute passes, (time to consume a brew) you will always have 1 effect at the start of the day. If they get ambushed, its generally going to interupt the rest, so thats not really relevant. Everyone is screwed when you interupt their long rests. They can also get around this by not taking the last watch of a long rest, and thus will have 1 minute while the other rest. Even in this case, that could be solved by a small semantic change to cover that edge case.
2, the DM would have to try hard to make it so, within a 16 hour day, and combat lasting for only a few minutes out of that day, there is no overlap of the long rest, or multiple chances to ret. A short rest is basically any hour long stretch where you do nothing strenuous. Eating lunch is a short rest, sitting in a wagon is a short rest, waiting at the bar is a short rest. But yes, sometimes they may only have one buff, thats ok because some times they have two buffs. And i wouldnt mind them just setting a duration, the reason they likely didnt is because thats what short rests are supposed to represent. DMs might be overally pedantic, but the intent is, if there is a lull in the action, or players are taking abreather, thats a short rest. If you are going to say it takes 20 minutes to create and consume a brew, thats fine, but if you got 20 minutes to drink, you probably are in the conceptual/narrative space that short rest is trying to represent, even though mechanically it takes an hour.
3. The case where you dont have a minute after a rest is extreme pedanticness on the oart of the. DM as i said, if the rest is interupted, its interupted, if its complete you probably had a minute, a DM who is going to quibble over that is just looking for arbitrary trouble. A short rest is actually any extended time period of inaction, people usually dont declare it because it has no need, if they havent used resources, however its fairly common at tables i play at, or observe, to ask, would i have gotten a short rest since X. To which the dm almost always replies, yeah sure if they were doing nothing major/relaxing since that event. The mechanical rules in 5e are supposed to be used in context, as you mentioned, its generally not the intent to be highly "gamey" The DM just as often may declare after a period of relative rest, you gain the benefits of a short rest, if the pkayers dont mention it, but they were relaxing for an hour. In the case or a drunken monk, id expect them to narratively allways be drinking outside of combat.
If they want to make it less likely to be played differently by different tables they can do that, but that generally adds more complexity and is going to be more 'gamey' since its tied to game mechanics and not regular world stuff. Like counting intoxication level, and swigs etc.
Which, may be fine, maybe they go that route, but its going to be just as gamey, and also have weird mechanical interactions and usecases where it works oddly
To be clear, i wouldn't mind them tightening the language, or relaxing how directly its tied to short rests, I think they should keep at least some partial benefit wereby the drunker they are, the more powerful they become, very possibly over a longer period than 12 seconds.
And i wouldnt be super upset if they abandoned that for something quicker, but it would be a less interesting mechanic, that leans less into the drunken warrior concept. However there is a benefit of avoiding overly pedantic DMs screwing you over, but to be honest those type of DMs do the same thing with everything. Like everyone would be annoyed if they did nothing but sit in a bar for 2 hours, but the DM declares they didnt get a short rests because they didnt declare it.
1. What I’m not going to allow you to do is argue a different point. Hmm, it’s more weird they have to wake up and immediately spend a minute drinking. If they get into combat after completing a rest but before drinking the brew they have no access to any brew powers. There are plenty of scenarios in which this can happen.
2. False, a short rest is you actively resting. A lull in the action is not necessarily a rest. Walking from point a to point be is a lull in action and is not a rest. Everyone riding in a cart could take a short rest, but the person actively driving the cart could not (RAW).
3. Again not talking about an interruption of a rest. We are talking about either forgetting to immediately drink your brew, or completing the rest and being in a position that a combat happens before you can drink your brew.
Also when I say gamey I don’t mean the act of playing the game using game mechanics. I mean the player thinking very meta to achieve additional benefits. Stuff like actively trying to get 2 short rests so they have 3 powers going. Also random thought, “in what case do you not spend the focus point to make the feature last 8 hours.” Why is that an option an not the base ability?
As Ain_Undos says, the whole feature of needing to drink the brew immediately after a Short Rest when it only lasts an hour, is a bit kooky.
I mean, how often do you know that you will be facing an encounter within an hour of your rest? Or are you going to peek down the corridor, see the waiting goblins and say "hey guys, let's back up and rest for an hour and hope the goblins don't notice so I can use my class feature"?
Realistically you will always want to spend the focus point to make the effect last 8 hours. And if you will always be doing this, then there's no point in having the option not to do it.
Or, far better in my opinion, and way more in line with the image of the "Drunken Master", is the fact that the bottled brew should just last all day and only take effect (for an hour minimum) at the point of drinking it (as a Bonus Action).
Drunken Boxing Style is a form of Kung Fu IRL (it has gone by different names), they should have left it as a martial arts style (as it was) instead of turning it into yet another subclass that makes magic potions. And to be clear, the style wasn't about being drunk, it was about imitating the unpredictable movements of someone who is drunk.
Give the Subclass the Performance Skill (But it is CHA based). Make it DEX based for this subclass to act more drunk than they are (Treat is as contest against an opponent's insight to determine actions / IF he is drunk and how drunk) And used to styme Inquisitive Rouge's subclass ability to gain advantage.
Drunken Boxing Style is a form of Kung Fu IRL (it has gone by different names), they should have left it as a martial arts style (as it was) instead of turning it into yet another subclass that makes magic potions. And to be clear, the style wasn't about being drunk, it was about imitating the unpredictable movements of someone who is drunk.
Its inspired by martial arts, but in 5e martial arts is tied to a supernatural power, which even in real martial arts, there was often an element of this martial training endowing the user with super human power. Eagle claw beneing Iron, Fighting for 10 more minutes after being stabbed, the concept of ki, and various metaphysics. But all that aside, while some practioners impersonated being drunk, in the fiction, many of the practioners were often drunk, comicly so.
Now, i personally don't love tying it to a litteral magic brew that disapears, its too far in the "magic' category and less in the metaphysics/training/hidden human potential/peak human wheelhouse, however, in 5e many people have problems understanding that, they want it to fit into pure 'Magic" aka do whatever you want without explanation, or physics. Which is one of the reasons martials have generally had issues. They also dont have to justify mechanics when they use magic. Why do spell slots work the way they do? magic,
Anyhow its better in 5e to let the players and DM flavor something as less magical, than to say its non magical in text, because DMs and certain players start trying to apply real world science to what is primarily a fantasy setting, even the non magical charachters are supposed to house actually super natural legendary tropes.
I remember people in DnD history complaining that monk shouldnt exist because its impossible for an unarmored person to compare with an armored fighter, etc, and some to justify monk's being undertuned that way. Regardless in 2024 monks draw on some level of 'magic' so its within that, that they can claim various styles/features are magical
EDIT: in case it wasnt clear, making it a magical brew mostly prevents unintended mechanics issues. like the monk nit being around a place with water/liquor/brewing supplies, time. Losing the flagon, breaking the flagon, giving others liquor, selling liquor, etc
1. What I’m not going to allow you to do is argue a different point. Hmm, it’s more weird they have to wake up and immediately spend a minute drinking. If they get into combat after completing a rest but before drinking the brew they have no access to any brew powers. There are plenty of scenarios in which this can happen.
2. False, a short rest is you actively resting. A lull in the action is not necessarily a rest. Walking from point a to point be is a lull in action and is not a rest. Everyone riding in a cart could take a short rest, but the person actively driving the cart could not (RAW).
3. Again not talking about an interruption of a rest. We are talking about either forgetting to immediately drink your brew, or completing the rest and being in a position that a combat happens before you can drink your brew.
Also when I say gamey I don’t mean the act of playing the game using game mechanics. I mean the player thinking very meta to achieve additional benefits. Stuff like actively trying to get 2 short rests so they have 3 powers going. Also random thought, “in what case do you not spend the focus point to make the feature last 8 hours.” Why is that an option an not the base ability?
1. There is no normal reason for a DM to deliniate that an attack occured after a rest, but before they can drink. Rests are not like 60 minute second clocks where you instantly recover, the hour long is just giving you a ball park figure. The same with long rests. Anything or feature that says it happens in/at the end of etc a rest would suffer these same issues if you want to try to map out the time precisely. At the end of a long rests you can perform some training and change your mastery. Does the DM need to map out this time? what if they are also an artificer who can create things, etc.
There is no good reason for a DM to arbirarily decide the rest wasnt interupted, but you didnt have a minute after the rest, other than if they specifically want to deny the Monk, because a short rests has never been a feature that is meant to be accurate to the minute. This would be like someone saying after you eat lunch text me, and you were like, sorry i alot my eating time to be one hour and travel time beginns imediately after that, so i couldnt spare 1 minute to text you back.
Now for comedies sake, Maybe a DM does it, one time, if they realize everyone will roll with it and have fun, but other than that intent, any DM who is micromanaging short rests, to the minute in ways that work against the players features/fantasies is not doing a good job imo.
2.The phb tells you a shortrest is simply a period of downtime where you do nothing strenuous, they name some activities, if the DM decides that driving is too strenuous, then its to strenuous, or if the books says its too strenuous. However no where does it present the idea that a short rests is a magical mechanic that only happens if you invoke short rest. Any peripd of downtime that isnt strenuous and lasts an hour could be a short rest.
3. and again there is no real reason to create a narrative that the short rests doesnt occur was finished but there wasn't a minute to drink your brew, because short rests, and the next conflict never have any reason to be so clearly delinated. As for forgetting, any DM worth their salt is not going to penalize player for not listing every pedantic thing they did pre combat, if they think they would normally do so. Did you officially say you donned yor armor? Where did you put your pack? 99% of the time these things are handwaved, they put these details for the 1% of the time its relevant, and for people fleshing out the game flavor. Not as gotchas to penalize the players.
1. “No normal reason…?” As a DM I can think of plenty of “normal’ reasons. As far as mapping out time I don’t believe there is a need. The problem is it only gives you the brew and not the power. Since I know I have had my players wake up to an encounter either combat or social in which they couldn’t just spend a minute drinking it is possible for this monk to not have access to their power.
2.A short rest is a rule with mechanics. If you alter those mechanics you are homebrewing. The activities listed are not the only activities a person can do, but they are a gauge of what a person can do. You have to actively not do anything more strenuous than what is listed. Which is why walking from point a to b wouldn’t count. Actively controlling an animal that is pulling a cart is more strenuous than the listed activity. Does a DM have the ability to ignore this, sure.
3. Again you are wrong. There are plenty of narrative reasons you complete an uninterrupted rest and have to rush to do something combat or social interaction that stops you from drinking your brew. I’m not going to list off a bunch because I believe you have enough imagination to think of at least 2. Also if you are the type of DM who lets your players say, “I totally casted Mage Armor earlier.” You are doing them a disservice. That is a far better example than donning armor. This is a feature of the subclass we are discussing. If you think this should be hand waved then there in no reason to write the feature this way. It should say when you complete a rest you have one of these powers, your choice.
1. “No normal reason…?” As a DM I can think of plenty of “normal’ reasons. As far as mapping out time I don’t believe there is a need. The problem is it only gives you the brew and not the power. Since I know I have had my players wake up to an encounter either combat or social in which they couldn’t just spend a minute drinking it is possible for this monk to not have access to their power.
2.A short rest is a rule with mechanics. If you alter those mechanics you are homebrewing. The activities listed are not the only activities a person can do, but they are a gauge of what a person can do. You have to actively not do anything more strenuous than what is listed. Which is why walking from point a to b wouldn’t count. Actively controlling an animal that is pulling a cart is more strenuous than the listed activity. Does a DM have the ability to ignore this, sure.
3. Again you are wrong. There are plenty of narrative reasons you complete an uninterrupted rest and have to rush to do something combat or social interaction that stops you from drinking your brew. I’m not going to list off a bunch because I believe you have enough imagination to think of at least 2. Also if you are the type of DM who lets your players say, “I totally casted Mage Armor earlier.” You are doing them a disservice. That is a far better example than donning armor. This is a feature of the subclass we are discussing. If you think this should be hand waved then there in no reason to write the feature this way. It should say when you complete a rest you have one of these powers, your choice.
I hear what you are saying, i disagree with mist of it, but it doesnt seem we will come to an understanding on those perspectives. I wrote out responses to each point, but realized we are basically not covering new ground. If you want to know more specifics, ask me and i will tell you .
Regardless conceptually, based on what is written this is how the features seem to work
1. After the end of any long or short rest a drink is created. at this point its effect is decided
2. the monk can spend a minute to consume 1 pint of the drink and gain abilities, optionally spending 1ki so that it lasts 8 hours
2.a it is unknown how many pints it contains, or whether it is limitless
3 The drink vanishes as a long or short rest ends, and if the monk has brewers supplies in hand a new drink is created.
Some factors should be cleared up in language, but assuming this is the loop they are describing:
The monk always has access to at least one effect
The monk could have multiple effects with more rest if they consume ki, if they dont consume ki, they will never have more than one effect.
If the decanter contains more than one pint (this should be cleared up) But its implied that you can have drink left, or drink more than a pint
then they can gain the effect multiple times per rest, but its the same effect.
As for why not make it a permanent/longer effect, likely because its an RPG and they want the monk to cannocially be drinking within an hour of having these effects, and they want to tie getting multiple effects to expending ki.
All together, this design means, the monk chooses an effect at the start of the day, and may get another effect depending on short rests, if they expend ki. Its not instant though, it takes time. They gain abilities, prioritizing the most important ones to them, and picking up more effects depending on hownthe day goes.
This is not completely foreign, there are certain rituals which require time to be used, or spells with a long casting time.
Now based on previous replies, I think (correct me if im wrong)
1.you dont like that the monk must spend one minute ahead of time to gain these effects
2.you feel that if it is intended that they can only have one effect its under powered, if its intended that they can gain more effects via rests, you don't like that because a) youd rather them be at full power without OoC build up, and b) you fear hiw their power is effected by how many rests they get
I dont think having to spend a minute is a large ask, if it lasts 1 to 8 hours.
i agree if they can only have one effect its underpowered, however if they can gain more effects through time spent drinking/creating brews i think its a worthwhile feature
I dont think it would be unbalanced for them to have multiple of these effects, especially if takes time. Having all four of these effects avaialable at the same time at level 11, would not be mechanically better than an openhand monk at 11. The breath attack is not much different than ascendant dragons, and the bonus to heals mostly needs teamwork, this is genrally not more than other things which add to healing. resistances are cool, but they have a low budget, its usually 1 portion of another feature.
This does make their abilities more effected by rests, but they already have classes which get weaker throughout the day, a class which gets more is actually interesting to me.
Will this make the dm feel pressured to give rests? Most classes currently already have strong reasons to desire a short rest, mages get back spell slots, fighters/barbs/paladins get back resources as well. Many of these are just as powerful or useful as the drunkard gets. Some rangers can give temp hp, muscians can give party inspiration, etc. So yes maybe, but certain classes/builds are already incetivized to rest, moreso than this feature does, so thats not really anything new.
Also, players are supposed to be taking short rests whenever they need to after encounters, unless the DM is increasing the tension. In which case, it is the intent that all the classes feal resource/ability pressure so its not like the monk is being singled out. Almost every class is going to be weaker if there is no rests. Now, will players take short rests? players often forget, or feel like they narratively wouldnt short rest, so this is a bigger threat. But the dmg advises you on how to nudge them into short rests if you think this is going to lead to problems.
They could divorce it from resting, while explicitly having it not interupt or use up rest time, but if the group has time for that, they also likely have time to short rest, which benefits the team and is more likely that the group would wait an hour for, So is this really changing much?
Now it also seems you dont love the idea at all, so it doesnt really matter how its executed, in that case, I'm not married to the concept, even though its fairly interesting to me, but it would need to be replaced with something, and preferably more interesting and involved in drinking, or appearing to drink than just having it always on
I’m not going to reply to most of that, because it seems as if you simply refuse to understand my actual problem with the subclass even though I wrote it verbatim.
I will reply to this, “This does make their abilities more effected by rests, but they already have classes which get weaker throughout the day, a class which gets more is actually interesting to me.”
Any class or subclass like this doesn’t work in most dnd games played at most Dnd tables for the same reason 2014 fighters felt weaker than spellcasters. The party is going to stop adventuring and take a long rest before the fighters sustainably feels strong and before this monk reaches its optimal state.
I'm not sure where this idea that the timing of taking the first drink is an issue comes from. The drink comes into existence after a rest, and vanishes if you start another. It takes 1 minute to drink, and lasts for 1 hour initially or 8 with a focus point. So, you brew your first one in the morning and keep it in the flask. Your party does whatever they're doing at the start of the day. Then, when you come to the dungeon, hideout, etc. or start traveling on the road, you swig your drink and pop a focus so you've got your 8 hour duration. Within the scope of many dungeon runs or similar setups, you're almost certainly good for the period the party will be getting into combat encounters, with room to take a Short Rest and get another one in.
Hypothetically could a DM try and manage time and events to run out the clock or arrange an ambush to catch you flat footed? Yes; the first is typically a sign of an adversarial DM rather than a flaw of the feature, and the second is a case of sometimes stuff happens and you don't get to flex with all your toys in an encounter. Unless the DM does it consistently, at which point we've slipped back into the former issue.
I’m not going to reply to most of that, because it seems as if you simply refuse to understand my actual problem with the subclass even though I wrote it verbatim.
I will reply to this, “This does make their abilities more effected by rests, but they already have classes which get weaker throughout the day, a class which gets more is actually interesting to me.”
Any class or subclass like this doesn’t work in most dnd games played at most Dnd tables for the same reason 2014 fighters felt weaker than spellcasters. The party is going to stop adventuring and take a long rest before the fighters sustainably feels strong and before this monk reaches its optimal state.
n what basis are you assuming a class that works like this will never work?
1 short rest per day is pretty much the minimal amount, and thats all they need for 2 effects, which is more than enough for the features to be valuable and 1 minute to set up an ability that lasts 1 to 8 hours doesnt seem like it will be an issue to me.
but, i'll let it drop, as you say perhaps i simply dont understand what you mean
1. Wrong. You don’t start the day with any brew power active. If you are attacked shortly after a long rest you have the brew made, but not drank.
2. Oh at least 1 rest a day, cool. That still doesn’t mean this monk would have two brew powers active when they are useable. That relies on the DM placing combat within certain time windows.
3. The problem you are refusing to acknowledge is the player who has combat before their first short rest, and the player that has 2 short rest before one big combat would have vastly different experiences with this subclass. Also from my play experience no one SR after non combat encounters unless the take damage.
The problem with that, again, is that it doesn't follow the 2024 naming convention, which is "Warrior of X".
"Warrior of Brews" would be okay, but I still think "Warrior of Intoxication" sounds better than all the alternatives.
pronouns: he/she/they
at the end of any long rest/ short rest, you can create a brew, it tajes 1 minute to consume a brew. Unless you are literally going to as DM decide that combat occurs at the literal 6th hour, but before a single minute passes, (time to consume a brew) you will always have 1 effect at the start of the day. If they get ambushed, its generally going to interupt the rest, so thats not really relevant. Everyone is screwed when you interupt their long rests. They can also get around this by not taking the last watch of a long rest, and thus will have 1 minute while the other rest. Even in this case, that could be solved by a small semantic change to cover that edge case.
2, the DM would have to try hard to make it so, within a 16 hour day, and combat lasting for only a few minutes out of that day, there is no overlap of the long rest, or multiple chances to ret. A short rest is basically any hour long stretch where you do nothing strenuous. Eating lunch is a short rest, sitting in a wagon is a short rest, waiting at the bar is a short rest. But yes, sometimes they may only have one buff, thats ok because some times they have two buffs. And i wouldnt mind them just setting a duration, the reason they likely didnt is because thats what short rests are supposed to represent. DMs might be overally pedantic, but the intent is, if there is a lull in the action, or players are taking abreather, thats a short rest. If you are going to say it takes 20 minutes to create and consume a brew, thats fine, but if you got 20 minutes to drink, you probably are in the conceptual/narrative space that short rest is trying to represent, even though mechanically it takes an hour.
3. The case where you dont have a minute after a rest is extreme pedanticness on the oart of the. DM as i said, if the rest is interupted, its interupted, if its complete you probably had a minute, a DM who is going to quibble over that is just looking for arbitrary trouble. A short rest is actually any extended time period of inaction, people usually dont declare it because it has no need, if they havent used resources, however its fairly common at tables i play at, or observe, to ask, would i have gotten a short rest since X. To which the dm almost always replies, yeah sure if they were doing nothing major/relaxing since that event. The mechanical rules in 5e are supposed to be used in context, as you mentioned, its generally not the intent to be highly "gamey" The DM just as often may declare after a period of relative rest, you gain the benefits of a short rest, if the pkayers dont mention it, but they were relaxing for an hour. In the case or a drunken monk, id expect them to narratively allways be drinking outside of combat.
If they want to make it less likely to be played differently by different tables they can do that, but that generally adds more complexity and is going to be more 'gamey' since its tied to game mechanics and not regular world stuff. Like counting intoxication level, and swigs etc.
Which, may be fine, maybe they go that route, but its going to be just as gamey, and also have weird mechanical interactions and usecases where it works oddly
To be clear, i wouldn't mind them tightening the language, or relaxing how directly its tied to short rests, I think they should keep at least some partial benefit wereby the drunker they are, the more powerful they become, very possibly over a longer period than 12 seconds.
And i wouldnt be super upset if they abandoned that for something quicker, but it would be a less interesting mechanic, that leans less into the drunken warrior concept. However there is a benefit of avoiding overly pedantic DMs screwing you over, but to be honest those type of DMs do the same thing with everything. Like everyone would be annoyed if they did nothing but sit in a bar for 2 hours, but the DM declares they didnt get a short rests because they didnt declare it.
1. What I’m not going to allow you to do is argue a different point. Hmm, it’s more weird they have to wake up and immediately spend a minute drinking. If they get into combat after completing a rest but before drinking the brew they have no access to any brew powers. There are plenty of scenarios in which this can happen.
2. False, a short rest is you actively resting. A lull in the action is not necessarily a rest. Walking from point a to point be is a lull in action and is not a rest. Everyone riding in a cart could take a short rest, but the person actively driving the cart could not (RAW).
3. Again not talking about an interruption of a rest. We are talking about either forgetting to immediately drink your brew, or completing the rest and being in a position that a combat happens before you can drink your brew.
Also when I say gamey I don’t mean the act of playing the game using game mechanics. I mean the player thinking very meta to achieve additional benefits. Stuff like actively trying to get 2 short rests so they have 3 powers going.
Also random thought, “in what case do you not spend the focus point to make the feature last 8 hours.” Why is that an option an not the base ability?
As Ain_Undos says, the whole feature of needing to drink the brew immediately after a Short Rest when it only lasts an hour, is a bit kooky.
I mean, how often do you know that you will be facing an encounter within an hour of your rest? Or are you going to peek down the corridor, see the waiting goblins and say "hey guys, let's back up and rest for an hour and hope the goblins don't notice so I can use my class feature"?
Realistically you will always want to spend the focus point to make the effect last 8 hours. And if you will always be doing this, then there's no point in having the option not to do it.
Or, far better in my opinion, and way more in line with the image of the "Drunken Master", is the fact that the bottled brew should just last all day and only take effect (for an hour minimum) at the point of drinking it (as a Bonus Action).
Drunken Boxing Style is a form of Kung Fu IRL (it has gone by different names), they should have left it as a martial arts style (as it was) instead of turning it into yet another subclass that makes magic potions. And to be clear, the style wasn't about being drunk, it was about imitating the unpredictable movements of someone who is drunk.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Give the Subclass the Performance Skill (But it is CHA based). Make it DEX based for this subclass to act more drunk than they are (Treat is as contest against an opponent's insight to determine actions / IF he is drunk and how drunk) And used to styme Inquisitive Rouge's subclass ability to gain advantage.
Its inspired by martial arts, but in 5e martial arts is tied to a supernatural power, which even in real martial arts, there was often an element of this martial training endowing the user with super human power. Eagle claw beneing Iron, Fighting for 10 more minutes after being stabbed, the concept of ki, and various metaphysics. But all that aside, while some practioners impersonated being drunk, in the fiction, many of the practioners were often drunk, comicly so.
Now, i personally don't love tying it to a litteral magic brew that disapears, its too far in the "magic' category and less in the metaphysics/training/hidden human potential/peak human wheelhouse, however, in 5e many people have problems understanding that, they want it to fit into pure 'Magic" aka do whatever you want without explanation, or physics. Which is one of the reasons martials have generally had issues. They also dont have to justify mechanics when they use magic. Why do spell slots work the way they do? magic,
Anyhow its better in 5e to let the players and DM flavor something as less magical, than to say its non magical in text, because DMs and certain players start trying to apply real world science to what is primarily a fantasy setting, even the non magical charachters are supposed to house actually super natural legendary tropes.
I remember people in DnD history complaining that monk shouldnt exist because its impossible for an unarmored person to compare with an armored fighter, etc, and some to justify monk's being undertuned that way. Regardless in 2024 monks draw on some level of 'magic' so its within that, that they can claim various styles/features are magical
EDIT: in case it wasnt clear, making it a magical brew mostly prevents unintended mechanics issues. like the monk nit being around a place with water/liquor/brewing supplies, time. Losing the flagon, breaking the flagon, giving others liquor, selling liquor, etc
1. There is no normal reason for a DM to deliniate that an attack occured after a rest, but before they can drink. Rests are not like 60 minute second clocks where you instantly recover, the hour long is just giving you a ball park figure. The same with long rests. Anything or feature that says it happens in/at the end of etc a rest would suffer these same issues if you want to try to map out the time precisely. At the end of a long rests you can perform some training and change your mastery. Does the DM need to map out this time? what if they are also an artificer who can create things, etc.
There is no good reason for a DM to arbirarily decide the rest wasnt interupted, but you didnt have a minute after the rest, other than if they specifically want to deny the Monk, because a short rests has never been a feature that is meant to be accurate to the minute. This would be like someone saying after you eat lunch text me, and you were like, sorry i alot my eating time to be one hour and travel time beginns imediately after that, so i couldnt spare 1 minute to text you back.
Now for comedies sake, Maybe a DM does it, one time, if they realize everyone will roll with it and have fun, but other than that intent, any DM who is micromanaging short rests, to the minute in ways that work against the players features/fantasies is not doing a good job imo.
2.The phb tells you a shortrest is simply a period of downtime where you do nothing strenuous, they name some activities, if the DM decides that driving is too strenuous, then its to strenuous, or if the books says its too strenuous. However no where does it present the idea that a short rests is a magical mechanic that only happens if you invoke short rest. Any peripd of downtime that isnt strenuous and lasts an hour could be a short rest.
3. and again there is no real reason to create a narrative that the short rests doesnt occur was finished but there wasn't a minute to drink your brew, because short rests, and the next conflict never have any reason to be so clearly delinated. As for forgetting, any DM worth their salt is not going to penalize player for not listing every pedantic thing they did pre combat, if they think they would normally do so. Did you officially say you donned yor armor? Where did you put your pack? 99% of the time these things are handwaved, they put these details for the 1% of the time its relevant, and for people fleshing out the game flavor. Not as gotchas to penalize the players.
1. “No normal reason…?” As a DM I can think of plenty of “normal’ reasons. As far as mapping out time I don’t believe there is a need. The problem is it only gives you the brew and not the power. Since I know I have had my players wake up to an encounter either combat or social in which they couldn’t just spend a minute drinking it is possible for this monk to not have access to their power.
2.A short rest is a rule with mechanics. If you alter those mechanics you are homebrewing. The activities listed are not the only activities a person can do, but they are a gauge of what a person can do. You have to actively not do anything more strenuous than what is listed. Which is why walking from point a to b wouldn’t count. Actively controlling an animal that is pulling a cart is more strenuous than the listed activity. Does a DM have the ability to ignore this, sure.
3. Again you are wrong. There are plenty of narrative reasons you complete an uninterrupted rest and have to rush to do something combat or social interaction that stops you from drinking your brew. I’m not going to list off a bunch because I believe you have enough imagination to think of at least 2. Also if you are the type of DM who lets your players say, “I totally casted Mage Armor earlier.” You are doing them a disservice. That is a far better example than donning armor. This is a feature of the subclass we are discussing. If you think this should be hand waved then there in no reason to write the feature this way. It should say when you complete a rest you have one of these powers, your choice.
I hear what you are saying, i disagree with mist of it, but it doesnt seem we will come to an understanding on those perspectives. I wrote out responses to each point, but realized we are basically not covering new ground. If you want to know more specifics, ask me and i will tell you .
Regardless conceptually, based on what is written this is how the features seem to work
1. After the end of any long or short rest a drink is created. at this point its effect is decided
2. the monk can spend a minute to consume 1 pint of the drink and gain abilities, optionally spending 1ki so that it lasts 8 hours
2.a it is unknown how many pints it contains, or whether it is limitless
3 The drink vanishes as a long or short rest ends, and if the monk has brewers supplies in hand a new drink is created.
Some factors should be cleared up in language, but assuming this is the loop they are describing:
The monk always has access to at least one effect
The monk could have multiple effects with more rest if they consume ki, if they dont consume ki, they will never have more than one effect.
If the decanter contains more than one pint (this should be cleared up) But its implied that you can have drink left, or drink more than a pint
then they can gain the effect multiple times per rest, but its the same effect.
As for why not make it a permanent/longer effect, likely because its an RPG and they want the monk to cannocially be drinking within an hour of having these effects, and they want to tie getting multiple effects to expending ki.
All together, this design means, the monk chooses an effect at the start of the day, and may get another effect depending on short rests, if they expend ki. Its not instant though, it takes time. They gain abilities, prioritizing the most important ones to them, and picking up more effects depending on hownthe day goes.
This is not completely foreign, there are certain rituals which require time to be used, or spells with a long casting time.
Now based on previous replies, I think (correct me if im wrong)
1.you dont like that the monk must spend one minute ahead of time to gain these effects
2.you feel that if it is intended that they can only have one effect its under powered, if its intended that they can gain more effects via rests, you don't like that because a) youd rather them be at full power without OoC build up, and b) you fear hiw their power is effected by how many rests they get
I dont think having to spend a minute is a large ask, if it lasts 1 to 8 hours.
i agree if they can only have one effect its underpowered, however if they can gain more effects through time spent drinking/creating brews i think its a worthwhile feature
I dont think it would be unbalanced for them to have multiple of these effects, especially if takes time. Having all four of these effects avaialable at the same time at level 11, would not be mechanically better than an openhand monk at 11. The breath attack is not much different than ascendant dragons, and the bonus to heals mostly needs teamwork, this is genrally not more than other things which add to healing. resistances are cool, but they have a low budget, its usually 1 portion of another feature.
This does make their abilities more effected by rests, but they already have classes which get weaker throughout the day, a class which gets more is actually interesting to me.
Will this make the dm feel pressured to give rests? Most classes currently already have strong reasons to desire a short rest, mages get back spell slots, fighters/barbs/paladins get back resources as well. Many of these are just as powerful or useful as the drunkard gets. Some rangers can give temp hp, muscians can give party inspiration, etc. So yes maybe, but certain classes/builds are already incetivized to rest, moreso than this feature does, so thats not really anything new.
Also, players are supposed to be taking short rests whenever they need to after encounters, unless the DM is increasing the tension. In which case, it is the intent that all the classes feal resource/ability pressure so its not like the monk is being singled out. Almost every class is going to be weaker if there is no rests. Now, will players take short rests? players often forget, or feel like they narratively wouldnt short rest, so this is a bigger threat. But the dmg advises you on how to nudge them into short rests if you think this is going to lead to problems.
They could divorce it from resting, while explicitly having it not interupt or use up rest time, but if the group has time for that, they also likely have time to short rest, which benefits the team and is more likely that the group would wait an hour for, So is this really changing much?
Now it also seems you dont love the idea at all, so it doesnt really matter how its executed, in that case, I'm not married to the concept, even though its fairly interesting to me, but it would need to be replaced with something, and preferably more interesting and involved in drinking, or appearing to drink than just having it always on
I’m not going to reply to most of that, because it seems as if you simply refuse to understand my actual problem with the subclass even though I wrote it verbatim.
I will reply to this, “This does make their abilities more effected by rests, but they already have classes which get weaker throughout the day, a class which gets more is actually interesting to me.”
Any class or subclass like this doesn’t work in most dnd games played at most Dnd tables for the same reason 2014 fighters felt weaker than spellcasters. The party is going to stop adventuring and take a long rest before the fighters sustainably feels strong and before this monk reaches its optimal state.
I'm not sure where this idea that the timing of taking the first drink is an issue comes from. The drink comes into existence after a rest, and vanishes if you start another. It takes 1 minute to drink, and lasts for 1 hour initially or 8 with a focus point. So, you brew your first one in the morning and keep it in the flask. Your party does whatever they're doing at the start of the day. Then, when you come to the dungeon, hideout, etc. or start traveling on the road, you swig your drink and pop a focus so you've got your 8 hour duration. Within the scope of many dungeon runs or similar setups, you're almost certainly good for the period the party will be getting into combat encounters, with room to take a Short Rest and get another one in.
Hypothetically could a DM try and manage time and events to run out the clock or arrange an ambush to catch you flat footed? Yes; the first is typically a sign of an adversarial DM rather than a flaw of the feature, and the second is a case of sometimes stuff happens and you don't get to flex with all your toys in an encounter. Unless the DM does it consistently, at which point we've slipped back into the former issue.
n what basis are you assuming a class that works like this will never work?
1 short rest per day is pretty much the minimal amount, and thats all they need for 2 effects, which is more than enough for the features to be valuable and 1 minute to set up an ability that lasts 1 to 8 hours doesnt seem like it will be an issue to me.
but, i'll let it drop, as you say perhaps i simply dont understand what you mean