My head is spinning about the ramifications for blind fighting.
I've tried to summarize it for myself, can you help me sort out if I'm thinking straight or have missed something?
If attacker and defender both cannot see (blinded, area heavily obscured), an attack roll is made at both advantage (attacker is unseen) and disadvantage (attacker cannot see target), which results in a straight roll.
If in the same situation, but the attacker has the Blind Fighting fighting style, the attack is made at advantage (attacker is unseen, no disadvantage for not seeing defender).
If in the same situation, but the defender has the Alert feat, the attack is made at disadvantage (cannot see target, but target does not get advantage for being unseen).
If in the same situation, but the attacker has the Blind Fighting fighting style and the defender has the Alert feat, the attack is a straight roll (no disadvantage for not seeing defender and attacker does not get advantage for being unseen).
My head is spinning about the ramifications for blind fighting.
I've tried to summarize it for myself, can you help me sort out if I'm thinking straight or have missed something?
If attacker and defender both cannot see (blinded, area heavily obscured), an attack roll is made at both advantage (attacker is unseen) and disadvantage (attacker cannot see target), which results in a straight roll.
If in the same situation, but the attacker has the Blind Fighting fighting style, the attack is made at advantage (attacker is unseen, no disadvantage for not seeing defender).
If in the same situation, but the defender has the Alert feat, the attack is made at disadvantage (cannot see target, but target does not get advantage for being unseen).
If in the same situation, but the attacker has the Blind Fighting fighting style and the defender has the Alert feat, the attack is a straight roll (no disadvantage for not seeing defender and attacker does not get advantage for being unseen).
Blind Fighting has a lot of promise for niche-y characters.
As one example (and rather ironically), a drow or kobold can turn off their Sunlight Sensitivity by blindfolding themselves or shutting their eyes, relying on their blindfighting ability to hit after locating their target. This only really works for melee attacks (or at least, as a DM, I'd rule that you need to know ehere your target is to attack it with blindfighting, which is a whole lot harder when it's sixty feet away), but it's a cool trick in the bag of the inevitable dark elf edgelords and minidurgan trollfaces.
The aforementioned Darkness trick is also a big one, as is Fog Cloud or similar heavy obscurement spells. Blind Fighting specifies "hidden" creatures benefit from their hiding, but given the rules of hiding are almost entirely based on sight, that's going to require table-by-table adjudication. I would posit (and rule, if there was a blind fighter at my table) that Hiding from someone with blind fighting requires an auditory Stealth check, likely with disadvantage if they're within melee distance. That said, Rangers get both a native fighting style and Fog Cloud, which could make for some really damn cool moments in-game.
RAW the fighting style is super nichey, but I'd also probably rule that Blind Fighting eliminates disadvantage against an opponent you can only see poorly, such as dim-light fighting for non-darkvision races. And obviously an invisible critter is not nearly so immune to counterattacks against a blind fighter, once the blind fighter is aware of the invisible critter's presence. An auditory Perception roll to locate the critter (or the usual sand/fog/water tricks), and then the critter has to either break engagement and flee or burn its own action to try and capital-H Hide.
Frankly, this is probably a super good choice as a secondary fighting style for any character lucky enough to get two. Situational as it is, the situations where it's useful come up surprisingly often, and being able to take merciless advantage of spells like Darkness or Fog Cloud is a great way to make more guerrilla-style combatants pop. Might even be my first choice of fighting style for rogues dipping a fighting style somewhere; the Blindsense they get at 14th level means they just automatically know where anything within ten feet of them is if they're not deafened, and Blind Fighting means they can then attack it without hindrance.
Definitely some cool tricks you can get up to with this option. Man this UA is so good.
I would really like to make a blind monk to but i came across the Blinded Condition:
Blinded
A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have disadvantage.
Meaning that if you wanted to do this you would have to burn your Ki with Patient Defense each turn to offset this.
Or you could get the Alert Feat which prevents other creatures from from getting advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen. It also comes with +5 to initiative and you cannot be surprised while conscious.
A Blind Master with Alert (and the mandatory single level of fighter, to gain access to the Blind Fighting style) could actually be pretty baller. Difficult to play well, but a worthwhile Interesting Build. You'd likely have to make sure your DM buys into the idea and fudge the rules a bit occasionally, but it's a pretty popular archetype and it comes with its own interesting advantages.
Sunlight sensitivity affects more than just the eyes. Crawford even tweeted about it at some point. Even a blind/eyeless kobold still suffers from sunlight sensitivity.
"You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight."
Obviously, an attack made using Blind Fighting is not an attack roll that relies on sight. I understand that the intent of the rule is "You have disadvantage on attack rolls (COMMA HERE) and Wisdom (Perception) that relies on sight...", but even the strictest of RAW lawyers has to admit that the way the wording of the trait is actually laid out, an interpretation that states "attack rolls and Perception checks (COMMA HERE) which rely on sight" is equally valid.
Heh. Much like the classic "Eats Shoots and Leaves" vs. "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" memes, punctuation and/or the lack of punctuation is important. At my table, Blind Fighting allows a Sunlight-sensitive character that otherwise shuts off their eyes to attack normally (provided they can otherwise locate their target). They obviously automatically fail sight-based Perception checks and the like because they're blinded, but a DM does not get to double-dip on screwing the player. They can't rule "you're both Blind AND sunlight sensitive, so even though you can't see the sun it burns your eyes!" That's hogwash and I won't stand for it.
That’s because people don’t understand what sunlight sensitivity is actually supposed to represent.
Sunlight sensitivity isn’t because “your eyes are unaccustomed to bright light.” It is because creatures who live their entire lives deep underground never have any evolutionary reason to develop any UV protection such a melanin.
It’s not “you’re blind but the sunlight burns your eyes anyway” it’s “you’re blind, and the sunlight is burning your entire body 100x worse than someone with albinism even through clothes because, since you have no natural defense mechanism, and since you don’t have a mile or more of earth and rock protecting you, you are literally being irradiated by the sun in a way your body has never evolved a means to cope with.”
As for your missing comma, I do see your point and it is valid. But at my table: RAI + common sense + the laws of nature = I don’t need no stinking commas.
There are quite literally species on our planet who are so light sensitive that even flash photography is intense enough to cause serious burns, excruciating pain, and potentially even skin cancer. example
All in all its probably a moot point though. After all, “the game’s called ‘Dungeons & Dragons,’ not ‘Daylight & Dragons.’”-Matt Colville
Heh. Which would be fair if the feature was not dealing directly with perception and visual detection. it specifically says "attack rolls" (i.e. aiming stuff) and "sight-based perception checks" (i.e. seeing stuff).
the two PC races with sunlight sensitivity are drow and kobolds. Kobolds have reptillian scales and construction and should, logically, be better at resisting radiative effects than most bare-skin races. Drow are known to raid under the moon with no issue, and Crawford has himself stated that even simply overcast days are enough to turn off Sunlight Sensitivity for drow.
What you're talking about seems closer to Sunlight Hypersensitivity, which is a trait assigned to stuff like vampires and other creatures which suffer direct damage from the sun. Slapping on a blindfold is insufficient there, but in the case of normal sunlight sensitivity? I could see the creature feeling hot and uncomfortable in strong sunlight, but utilizing Blind Fighting or blindsense to target while blinding oneself (and I mean actually drawing up a blindfold or other protective covering, not simply closing one's eyes) would allow the critter to fight. If, clearly, not to see.
I’m sorry, I just see using a blindfold and a fighting style to outsmart evolution is a cheesy munchkin way to circumvent rules. Blindfighting is and has always (at least since 2e) been a way for a PC to be like Daredevil, not SPF 1,000.
The cheesy way to circumvent the rules is to use save effects instead of attack rolls. Which is a given definition of 'cheesy', I suppose, since nothing in the game ever misses a save unless it's a PC. Basic CR 1/8 goblin with a -3 to Wisdom against a PC with a 25 spell save? Sucker will still somehow bounce your stuff. Gawd saves bother me +_+
Regardless. If the Sunlight Sensitivity feature is supposed to affect an entity's entire being rather than just their vision, the feature is super poorly worded and written. It affects nothing save vision. You'd figure that an effect which is supposed to be causing the creature serious pain and disorientation would impact more than just vision-based search checks and the ability to aim.
Heh, that and I'd have to ask why Blind Fighting is even a thing if adverse lighting conditions are enough to override it. If you deliberately cover your eyes, but then you get blinded by a flash of light or some thrown sand (which somehow gets through your blindfold) or the like anyways and lose all the advantages of the fighting style...why even bother with the fighting style?
Presumably WotC has pulled it for either iteration (meaning we'll see it or some other version of it again) or because it has based the bar and will be going to print in an upcoming book.
Because everybody took it in 2e, it was the first thing I noticed missing in 5e when I picked it up.
Well yes a melee character without it was seriously gimping themselves. But then people hate 2nd nowadays it seems. Look at that "comical" piece a few months back.
Because everybody took it in 2e, it was the first thing I noticed missing in 5e when I picked it up.
Well yes a melee character without it was seriously gimping themselves. But then people hate 2nd nowadays it seems. Look at that "comical" piece a few months back.
I still have a fondness for 2e. What “comical” piece?
Blind Fighting was part of the Class Feature Variants UA document which has taken forever and three dongs to get done. It was never 'active' in the sense that someone could take it on DDB, and frankly by this point we're all kinda expecting it to not be active until it shows up in a book somewhere. DDB needed the time to refigure their code base to allow for variant class features, which they've supposedly done but now the actual UA doc is taking more forever to implement. It's one of those things that's sorta perpetually Only A Few Weeks Away(TM); a lot of us have given up on it ever going live.
Side note: anyone else miss Dan Telfer? People liked to hate on his comedy pieces, but I thought they were a nice change of pace, and good for people who could get over themselves enough to laugh at this eminently laughable game.
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My head is spinning about the ramifications for blind fighting.
I've tried to summarize it for myself, can you help me sort out if I'm thinking straight or have missed something?
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Looks like Drow characters are going to finally have a reason to cast darkness.
This looks like it adds up correctly.
Blind Fighting has a lot of promise for niche-y characters.
As one example (and rather ironically), a drow or kobold can turn off their Sunlight Sensitivity by blindfolding themselves or shutting their eyes, relying on their blindfighting ability to hit after locating their target. This only really works for melee attacks (or at least, as a DM, I'd rule that you need to know ehere your target is to attack it with blindfighting, which is a whole lot harder when it's sixty feet away), but it's a cool trick in the bag of the inevitable dark elf edgelords and minidurgan trollfaces.
The aforementioned Darkness trick is also a big one, as is Fog Cloud or similar heavy obscurement spells. Blind Fighting specifies "hidden" creatures benefit from their hiding, but given the rules of hiding are almost entirely based on sight, that's going to require table-by-table adjudication. I would posit (and rule, if there was a blind fighter at my table) that Hiding from someone with blind fighting requires an auditory Stealth check, likely with disadvantage if they're within melee distance. That said, Rangers get both a native fighting style and Fog Cloud, which could make for some really damn cool moments in-game.
RAW the fighting style is super nichey, but I'd also probably rule that Blind Fighting eliminates disadvantage against an opponent you can only see poorly, such as dim-light fighting for non-darkvision races. And obviously an invisible critter is not nearly so immune to counterattacks against a blind fighter, once the blind fighter is aware of the invisible critter's presence. An auditory Perception roll to locate the critter (or the usual sand/fog/water tricks), and then the critter has to either break engagement and flee or burn its own action to try and capital-H Hide.
Frankly, this is probably a super good choice as a secondary fighting style for any character lucky enough to get two. Situational as it is, the situations where it's useful come up surprisingly often, and being able to take merciless advantage of spells like Darkness or Fog Cloud is a great way to make more guerrilla-style combatants pop. Might even be my first choice of fighting style for rogues dipping a fighting style somewhere; the Blindsense they get at 14th level means they just automatically know where anything within ten feet of them is if they're not deafened, and Blind Fighting means they can then attack it without hindrance.
Definitely some cool tricks you can get up to with this option. Man this UA is so good.
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A blind monk would be a great character with this.
I would really like to make a blind monk to but i came across the Blinded Condition:
Blinded
Meaning that if you wanted to do this you would have to burn your Ki with Patient Defense each turn to offset this.
Or you could get the Alert Feat which prevents other creatures from from getting advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen. It also comes with +5 to initiative and you cannot be surprised while conscious.
A Blind Master with Alert (and the mandatory single level of fighter, to gain access to the Blind Fighting style) could actually be pretty baller. Difficult to play well, but a worthwhile Interesting Build. You'd likely have to make sure your DM buys into the idea and fudge the rules a bit occasionally, but it's a pretty popular archetype and it comes with its own interesting advantages.
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Yurei,
Sunlight sensitivity affects more than just the eyes. Crawford even tweeted about it at some point. Even a blind/eyeless kobold still suffers from sunlight sensitivity.
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That's cool. Crawford can be wrong sometimes.
Sunlight Sensitivity
"You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight."
Obviously, an attack made using Blind Fighting is not an attack roll that relies on sight. I understand that the intent of the rule is "You have disadvantage on attack rolls (COMMA HERE) and Wisdom (Perception) that relies on sight...", but even the strictest of RAW lawyers has to admit that the way the wording of the trait is actually laid out, an interpretation that states "attack rolls and Perception checks (COMMA HERE) which rely on sight" is equally valid.
Heh. Much like the classic "Eats Shoots and Leaves" vs. "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" memes, punctuation and/or the lack of punctuation is important. At my table, Blind Fighting allows a Sunlight-sensitive character that otherwise shuts off their eyes to attack normally (provided they can otherwise locate their target). They obviously automatically fail sight-based Perception checks and the like because they're blinded, but a DM does not get to double-dip on screwing the player. They can't rule "you're both Blind AND sunlight sensitive, so even though you can't see the sun it burns your eyes!" That's hogwash and I won't stand for it.
Please do not contact or message me.
That’s because people don’t understand what sunlight sensitivity is actually supposed to represent.
Sunlight sensitivity isn’t because “your eyes are unaccustomed to bright light.” It is because creatures who live their entire lives deep underground never have any evolutionary reason to develop any UV protection such a melanin.
It’s not “you’re blind but the sunlight burns your eyes anyway” it’s “you’re blind, and the sunlight is burning your entire body 100x worse than someone with albinism even through clothes because, since you have no natural defense mechanism, and since you don’t have a mile or more of earth and rock protecting you, you are literally being irradiated by the sun in a way your body has never evolved a means to cope with.”
As for your missing comma, I do see your point and it is valid. But at my table: RAI + common sense + the laws of nature = I don’t need no stinking commas.
There are quite literally species on our planet who are so light sensitive that even flash photography is intense enough to cause serious burns, excruciating pain, and potentially even skin cancer. example
All in all its probably a moot point though. After all, “the game’s called ‘Dungeons & Dragons,’ not ‘Daylight & Dragons.’”-Matt Colville
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Heh. Which would be fair if the feature was not dealing directly with perception and visual detection. it specifically says "attack rolls" (i.e. aiming stuff) and "sight-based perception checks" (i.e. seeing stuff).
the two PC races with sunlight sensitivity are drow and kobolds. Kobolds have reptillian scales and construction and should, logically, be better at resisting radiative effects than most bare-skin races. Drow are known to raid under the moon with no issue, and Crawford has himself stated that even simply overcast days are enough to turn off Sunlight Sensitivity for drow.
What you're talking about seems closer to Sunlight Hypersensitivity, which is a trait assigned to stuff like vampires and other creatures which suffer direct damage from the sun. Slapping on a blindfold is insufficient there, but in the case of normal sunlight sensitivity? I could see the creature feeling hot and uncomfortable in strong sunlight, but utilizing Blind Fighting or blindsense to target while blinding oneself (and I mean actually drawing up a blindfold or other protective covering, not simply closing one's eyes) would allow the critter to fight. If, clearly, not to see.
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I’m sorry, I just see using a blindfold and a fighting style to outsmart evolution is a cheesy munchkin way to circumvent rules. Blindfighting is and has always (at least since 2e) been a way for a PC to be like Daredevil, not SPF 1,000.
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The cheesy way to circumvent the rules is to use save effects instead of attack rolls. Which is a given definition of 'cheesy', I suppose, since nothing in the game ever misses a save unless it's a PC. Basic CR 1/8 goblin with a -3 to Wisdom against a PC with a 25 spell save? Sucker will still somehow bounce your stuff. Gawd saves bother me +_+
Regardless. If the Sunlight Sensitivity feature is supposed to affect an entity's entire being rather than just their vision, the feature is super poorly worded and written. It affects nothing save vision. You'd figure that an effect which is supposed to be causing the creature serious pain and disorientation would impact more than just vision-based search checks and the ability to aim.
Heh, that and I'd have to ask why Blind Fighting is even a thing if adverse lighting conditions are enough to override it. If you deliberately cover your eyes, but then you get blinded by a flash of light or some thrown sand (which somehow gets through your blindfold) or the like anyways and lose all the advantages of the fighting style...why even bother with the fighting style?
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Because everybody took it in 2e, it was the first thing I noticed missing in 5e when I picked it up.
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Is Blind Fighting no longer active?
Presumably WotC has pulled it for either iteration (meaning we'll see it or some other version of it again) or because it has based the bar and will be going to print in an upcoming book.
Well yes a melee character without it was seriously gimping themselves. But then people hate 2nd nowadays it seems. Look at that "comical" piece a few months back.
I still have a fondness for 2e. What “comical” piece?
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Blind Fighting was part of the Class Feature Variants UA document which has taken forever and three dongs to get done. It was never 'active' in the sense that someone could take it on DDB, and frankly by this point we're all kinda expecting it to not be active until it shows up in a book somewhere. DDB needed the time to refigure their code base to allow for variant class features, which they've supposedly done but now the actual UA doc is taking more forever to implement. It's one of those things that's sorta perpetually Only A Few Weeks Away(TM); a lot of us have given up on it ever going live.
Side note: anyone else miss Dan Telfer? People liked to hate on his comedy pieces, but I thought they were a nice change of pace, and good for people who could get over themselves enough to laugh at this eminently laughable game.
Please do not contact or message me.