I would love to see hunter's mark become a ranger feature instead of a spell. Maybe the tracking could be added in someplace else. Honestly, ranger is mostly a little weaker than it was after Tasha's except at level 1. They got a big boost at level 1, but lost some casting at level 3 with the loss of primal awareness, but the loss isn't huge because they now know more spells in general and could cast spells as rituals, which would save them slots. So strong all the way up until they lose Land strider, but then they gain an extra expertise. Personally I preferred Land strider. Nature's veil is stronger for the amount of time it lasts, but weaker because it takes a spell slot, but by then a first level spell slot isn't a huge sacrifice for greater invisibility for 2 rounds, in fact that is actually amazing.
All around I like Ranger this time around personally. I just want hunters mark to not be a spell and be a ranger ability that they can do PB per long rest or something and then you can push their first level spell slots back to level 2. As is I feel they just get too much for a 1 level dip.
I think this finally makes the ranger hold it's own as a class. It is POWERFUL, perhaps even more so than you might think at first glance. But ultimately, it isn't more powerful than fighter, rogue, or paladin. In fact, it finally puts the ranger on par with those classes in mid to high level play. Ranger was always good in low level play, but quickly fell behind and was not really that fun.
Yeah, about that... They just take one level of ranger for that 1d6 damage bonus and that's it for competition. Monk will obliterate stuff with his flurry of blows +1d6.
I think this finally makes the ranger hold it's own as a class. It is POWERFUL, perhaps even more so than you might think at first glance. But ultimately, it isn't more powerful than fighter, rogue, or paladin. In fact, it finally puts the ranger on par with those classes in mid to high level play. Ranger was always good in low level play, but quickly fell behind and was not really that fun.
Yeah, about that... They just take one level of ranger for that 1d6 damage bonus and that's it for competition. Monk will obliterate stuff with his flurry of blows +1d6.
Which is why it should probably be level 2. And on top of that martial design should be every odd level they get something huge, something on the order of another level of spells so a monk dipping 2 levels wold be giving up or slowing down access to something totally awesome.
Which is why it should probably be level 2. And on top of that martial design should be every odd level they get something huge, something on the order of another level of spells so a monk dipping 2 levels wold be giving up or slowing down access to something totally awesome.
I'd say that Hunter's Mark should be a class featuree with scaling, rather than a spell. Starts at level 1 with just the tracking component, at level 3 it gains 1d6 to damage once per turn, then it grows at least at 11th level (when other martials gain a third attack or improved divine smite) and at 17th level (because 1d10 sucks for a capstone). Scaling features are a universal answer to why one should stick to ine class. Monk's martial damage die, barbarian rage, they all get better as you level this one class. Though monks should get a buff.
I have made my suggestion on hunter's mark in other topics/threads. I believe hunter's mark should scale with Ranger spell casting, specifically Ranger, and it (as well as hex) should start at 1d4, right now the 1d6 damage blows other spells like Divine Favor completely out of the water. Many 1st level spells are ill-balanced but it's fine if it's ill balanced if it progresses as a class feature, however in it's current state it basically peaks at level 1, with one minor exception at level 18. Right now Ranger 5/ Rogue 5 blows both Ranger 10 and Rogue 10 completely out of the water.
Sw = short sword, HM = hunter's mark, HP = Hunter's Prey assuming two weapon fighting style
Sneak attack scales into Tier 2 and beyond at a constant rate, so stick with rogue until Ranger 5 / Rogue 15 for the optimal expert class right now.
What I purpose is that Hunter's Mark should start at 1d4 and increases to 1d6 at ranger 5, 1d8 at ranger 9, 1d10 at ranger 13 and 1d12 at ranger 17 (or 2d6 if you want slightly more) by using higher leveled spell slots.
the purposed ranger at 10 would instead get: (1d6 Sw + 1d8 HM + DEX MOD) * 3 + 1d8 HP.
Ok you're still going to do less than the rogue/ranger above but it's still slightly more than a level 5 ranger (+~2.1 DPR @65% chance to hit for each dice increase). At level 13 you'd be up to (1d6 Sw + 1d10 HM + DEX MOD) * 3 +1d8HP. you also get Nature's veil at this level, which is damage increase when you can use it (it competes with Hunter's Mark for BA and 1d6 Hunter's Mark does ever so slightly more damage (~0.6 DPR with 3 short swords, @65% chance to hit for HM vs 87.75% for the Veil). Meanwhile Rogue gets an ability that gives them free advantage over 80% (maybe over 90% with alert feat) of the time at level 13 in comparison.
Right now Ranger does a bit too much damage in T1, passable damage in T2, subpar damage in T3 and terrible damage in T4. It's still more viable from DPR than in 5E but it's late game features and damage increases are just way to mediocre. Hunter's Mark adding some damage at least rectifies it slightly. I don't think ranger needs to do as much as Rogue since Rogue doesn't have spell casting but getting only 1 real increase between 5 to 18 is poor, and that one increase conflicts with HM for bonus action....
Yeah I agree with a lot of people here. At this point I think it should just be a class feature, and only improve if you keep putting levels in Ranger. Would anyone miss it if Hunters Mark was no longer a spell? I never even considered using it on a Druid. That seems to be what is happening with Eldritch Blast and I think that's okay.
So being able to deal 6d6+mod at level 1 is broken beyond measure. It is more broken than what people though was broken about rogues sneak attack which was tame and it gets worse at level 4 & 5.
All you need to do is take the background that gives you magic initiate (arcane) like Cultist or Sage for Hex. Lets say the ranger's dex mod is a 4 and dual wields two crossbows
Cast both Hex and Hunter's Mark on a creature which will give you 2d6 a swing. With dual wielding hand cross bows that is 3d6 per hit which 6d6+4 in a round. At level 2 you take fighting style two weapon fighting which now you can add you ability mod to your off-hand crossbow which is now 6d6+8. Hunter's Prey at level 3 will add an extra 1d8 to one attack so that is now 6d6+1d8+8. At level 4 you take the charger feat which ironically works with range weapons and all you need to do is move 10ft per attack which adds a d8. Now that is 6d6+3d8+8 in a round. With extra attack at level 5 that is now 9d6+4d8+12 a round.
The fix to this would be to change the wording on Favored Enemy from "don't need to concentrate on hunter's mark" to "gain advantage on concentration checks when concentrating on hunter's mark." This will make it more balanced without the loophole that it currently has in the UA.
Also the fix for charger would be to change "before hitting with an attack as part of your attack action" to "before hitting with a melee attack as part of your attack action" so that it only works with melee attacks.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
Nah. It needs to change to advantage on concentration checks for hunters mark. Being able to deal 9d6+4d8+mod by level 5 is broken. People thought that being able to sneak attack twice a round is bad even though it hardly came up so this loophole on FE will need to go as well even if it take time to set up.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
Nah. It needs to change to advantage on concentration checks for hunters mark. Being able to deal 9d6+4d8+mod by level 5 is broken. People thought that being able to sneak attack twice a round is bad even though it hardly came up so this loophole on FE will need to go as well even if it take time to set up.
your numbers make 0 sense. melee attack with two weapon fighting is 6d6 (1d6 from short sword, 1d6 from hunter's mark) + 3x mod (with the two weapon fighting style). Where you are getting the other 4d8 or 3d6 I have no clue. The other 3d6 could come from getting magic initiate for hex and using 2 first level spell slots, of your total of 6 at level 5. but this would still be missing 4d8 that you are throwing out there. And that would be to a single target since it takes your bonus action to move the mark and to cast it or hex. Sneak attack wasn't "broken" when doing more than once either. It just was a loophole that inexperienced players didn't get so you can't balance rogue around having it.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
Nah. It needs to change to advantage on concentration checks for hunters mark. Being able to deal 9d6+4d8+mod by level 5 is broken. People thought that being able to sneak attack twice a round is bad even though it hardly came up so this loophole on FE will need to go as well even if it take time to set up.
your numbers make 0 sense. melee attack with two weapon fighting is 6d6 (1d6 from short sword, 1d6 from hunter's mark) + 3x mod (with the two weapon fighting style). Where you are getting the other 4d8 or 3d6 I have no clue. The other 3d6 could come from getting magic initiate for hex and using 2 first level spell slots, of your total of 6 at level 5. but this would still be missing 4d8 that you are throwing out there. And that would be to a single target since it takes your bonus action to move the mark and to cast it or hex. Sneak attack wasn't "broken" when doing more than once either. It just was a loophole that inexperienced players didn't get so you can't balance rogue around having it.
They’re also stacking Hunter’s Prey, the Charger feat, and Extra Attack at 5th level.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
Nah. It needs to change to advantage on concentration checks for hunters mark. Being able to deal 9d6+4d8+mod by level 5 is broken. People thought that being able to sneak attack twice a round is bad even though it hardly came up so this loophole on FE will need to go as well even if it take time to set up.
your numbers make 0 sense. melee attack with two weapon fighting is 6d6 (1d6 from short sword, 1d6 from hunter's mark) + 3x mod (with the two weapon fighting style). Where you are getting the other 4d8 or 3d6 I have no clue. The other 3d6 could come from getting magic initiate for hex and using 2 first level spell slots, of your total of 6 at level 5. but this would still be missing 4d8 that you are throwing out there. And that would be to a single target since it takes your bonus action to move the mark and to cast it or hex. Sneak attack wasn't "broken" when doing more than once either. It just was a loophole that inexperienced players didn't get so you can't balance rogue around having it.
They’re also stacking Hunter’s Prey, the Charger feat, and Extra Attack at 5th level.
Extra attack I accounted for with 6d6, hex would get the other 3d6, Hunter's prey is only 1d8 IF the target is below their max health already, making hte extra damage you are getting from hex even MORE pointless. and Charger is only 1d8. So that accounts for 2 of the d8 not the others. Also charger specifically states "you can only benefit from one of these once per turn" so I still don't know where he is getting the other 2d8's.
Meanwhile a battle master fighter also with two weapon fighting and charger is getting 3d6+1d8+3xmod + Battlemaster Maneuverx 2 because of action surge, and they could take magic initiate for hex as well at first level for 6d6+2d8+ 3x mod from battle master maneuver and charger and still action surge for another 6d6+1d8+ 3x Mod. if they also use hex. Hex make multi-attacks strong, who would have thunk? A battlemaster fighter with sword and board is still capable of 2d8 +2xmod +4 and knock someone prone +Battle master manuever for another d8., if they have hex you add in another 2d6 to the damage, or heck maybe they are an ardling and have divine favor for an extra 1d4 on each attack. Yes the damag is smaller, but not by much and they are getting +2 AC from the shield + effectively having evasion from the shield. In this case they are still doing 3d8+2d4+2xmod +4 and knocking someone prone and then action surging for another 2d8+2xmod+ 2d4+ 4 with advantage, and it only scales up from there. Maybe pushing hunter's mark no concentration to 11 is what is needed. Rangers really hurt for good stuff at 11, and by that point we are talking Paladin's get an extra d8 on all their attack and Fighters get an entire Extra attack.
Still I am not opposed to pushing the no concentration back, but after level 9, when you have 3rd level slots you are not concentrating on hunter's mark anymore. There are too many better things to do with your concentration.
My only issue with the no concentration at level one is dips, pushing it to 2-5 would handle that. Other than that its really hard to say until we see the whole system in place. We can compare it vs the bard and rogue to some extent but they are changing spells so even that might not be true. Heck it might not even stack with things like hex, they could easily be adding in some no like bonuses stack type thing and classify both as X bonus. Vs the rogue it looks really good especially at low levels, but is that because its too good or because the rogue needs to be tuned up. I'm leaning towards the latter as I'd of placed rogue as 2nd worst class in 5e mechanically on a optimization level.
My only issue with the no concentration at level one is dips, pushing it to 2-5 would handle that. Other than that its really hard to say until we see the whole system in place. We can compare it vs the bard and rogue to some extent but they are changing spells so even that might not be true. Heck it might not even stack with things like hex, they could easily be adding in some no like bonuses stack type thing and classify both as X bonus. Vs the rogue it looks really good especially at low levels, but is that because its too good or because the rogue needs to be tuned up. I'm leaning towards the latter as I'd of placed rogue as 2nd worst class in 5e mechanically on a optimization level.
I agree completely that the multi-class dip is the biggest concern. And the fact we don't know what other classes and spells will look like. These two packets are all we have to go on for now, so I wouldn't speculate too much on Hex, etc.
They did say that they understand they probably overtuned Ranger and made it stronger than it needed to be. I imagine some part of hunter's mark will get delayed until later levels. As long as we provide feedback.
As I stated in another thread (which probably wasn't the proper place for me to respond to Hadesisle's idea), instead of no concentration or advantage on concentration checks with Hunter's Mark, what about just giving the Ranger automatic success on concentration rolls for Hunter's Mark? That would keep them from adding Hex onto it (a good thing, I think), but would prevent them from casting other concentration spells as well (which would reduce their choices in utilizing other spells, since they might be constantly "concentrating" on Hunter's Mark, a negative in my book).
In reality, I would probably also support the idea that others have stated for the spell (or feature if it is switched to that) could scale according to Ranger level, starting at d4 and using a larger die at certain increments.
As I stated in another thread (which probably wasn't the proper place for me to respond to Hadesisle's idea), instead of no concentration or advantage on concentration checks with Hunter's Mark, what about just giving the Ranger automatic success on concentration rolls for Hunter's Mark? That would keep them from adding Hex onto it (a good thing, I think), but would prevent them from casting other concentration spells as well (which would reduce their choices in utilizing other spells, since they might be constantly "concentrating" on Hunter's Mark, a negative in my book).
In reality, I would probably also support the idea that others have stated for the spell (or feature if it is switched to that) could scale according to Ranger level, starting at d4 and using a larger die at certain increments.
Why would you add Hex on to Hunter's Mark when there are better spells to use instead? Hex needs a bonus action to move, Hunter's Mark needs a bonus action to move, so it's absolutely pointless in party vs. group battles since you don't have enough bonus actions whenever your target dies. It only works on party vs. solo target where you expect that solo target to be surviving at least two rounds, preferable three or four.
at 1st level you've got Ensnaring Strike which is great against anything not large, you have goodberry and healing word for healing which need spell slots, at 2nd level spellcasting you get heat metal, barkskin, pass without trace, silence and spike growth which need concentration. at 3rd level you've got conjure animals, sleet storm & elemental weapon (if DM is tight with magic weapons). At 4th you've got Dominate Beast, Polymorph & conjure woodland beings or minor elementals. Finally at 5th you've got conjure fey or elementals, If you're a ranged character you additionally get swift quiver*.
*Personally I think swift quiver should be reduced to 1st level at 1 arrow per bonus action and upcast at 3rd level to 2 arrows per bonus action or 5th level for 3 arrows per bonus action, right now dual shortsword ranger beats out bow ranger too much from the higher number of attacks.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
Nah. It needs to change to advantage on concentration checks for hunters mark. Being able to deal 9d6+4d8+mod by level 5 is broken. People thought that being able to sneak attack twice a round is bad even though it hardly came up so this loophole on FE will need to go as well even if it take time to set up.
your numbers make 0 sense. melee attack with two weapon fighting is 6d6 (1d6 from short sword, 1d6 from hunter's mark) + 3x mod (with the two weapon fighting style). Where you are getting the other 4d8 or 3d6 I have no clue. The other 3d6 could come from getting magic initiate for hex and using 2 first level spell slots, of your total of 6 at level 5. but this would still be missing 4d8 that you are throwing out there. And that would be to a single target since it takes your bonus action to move the mark and to cast it or hex. Sneak attack wasn't "broken" when doing more than once either. It just was a loophole that inexperienced players didn't get so you can't balance rogue around having it.
They’re also stacking Hunter’s Prey, the Charger feat, and Extra Attack at 5th level.
Extra attack I accounted for with 6d6, hex would get the other 3d6, Hunter's prey is only 1d8 IF the target is below their max health already, making hte extra damage you are getting from hex even MORE pointless. and Charger is only 1d8. So that accounts for 2 of the d8 not the others. Also charger specifically states "you can only benefit from one of these once per turn" so I still don't know where he is getting the other 2d8's.
Meanwhile a battle master fighter also with two weapon fighting and charger is getting 3d6+1d8+3xmod + Battlemaster Maneuverx 2 because of action surge, and they could take magic initiate for hex as well at first level for 6d6+2d8+ 3x mod from battle master maneuver and charger and still action surge for another 6d6+1d8+ 3x Mod. if they also use hex. Hex make multi-attacks strong, who would have thunk? A battlemaster fighter with sword and board is still capable of 2d8 +2xmod +4 and knock someone prone +Battle master manuever for another d8., if they have hex you add in another 2d6 to the damage, or heck maybe they are an ardling and have divine favor for an extra 1d4 on each attack. Yes the damag is smaller, but not by much and they are getting +2 AC from the shield + effectively having evasion from the shield. In this case they are still doing 3d8+2d4+2xmod +4 and knocking someone prone and then action surging for another 2d8+2xmod+ 2d4+ 4 with advantage, and it only scales up from there. Maybe pushing hunter's mark no concentration to 11 is what is needed. Rangers really hurt for good stuff at 11, and by that point we are talking Paladin's get an extra d8 on all their attack and Fighters get an entire Extra attack.
Still I am not opposed to pushing the no concentration back, but after level 9, when you have 3rd level slots you are not concentrating on hunter's mark anymore. There are too many better things to do with your concentration.
Two Weapon Fighting accounts for the other attack. Other than that I think it’s just mistaken arithmetic.
I’m not really worried about something like the Hex+HM chicanery - takes too long to set up to be useful except in white room calls. Multiclassing dips are a much bigger problem but even then what are you actually getting - 2 cantrips, HM and 2 spell slots so you get HM damage (+1d6) for 2 fights a day. You don’t get evocation spells so your cantrips are of limited offensive power and the other 2 spells don’t matter if your using the slots for HM. If your really concerned then the simplest solution is to switch when you get fighting style and favored enemy.
As I stated in another thread (which probably wasn't the proper place for me to respond to Hadesisle's idea), instead of no concentration or advantage on concentration checks with Hunter's Mark, what about just giving the Ranger automatic success on concentration rolls for Hunter's Mark? That would keep them from adding Hex onto it (a good thing, I think), but would prevent them from casting other concentration spells as well (which would reduce their choices in utilizing other spells, since they might be constantly "concentrating" on Hunter's Mark, a negative in my book).
In reality, I would probably also support the idea that others have stated for the spell (or feature if it is switched to that) could scale according to Ranger level, starting at d4 and using a larger die at certain increments.
Actually I think it should be no concentration, really this is replacing the hunters mark from tashas which isn't a spell. And warlocks should get a similar no concentration feature for hex. The reason is a spell casting class should not have to choose between doing its default damage and casting spells. It would be like adding a restriction on arcane trickster that they can't sneak attack while sustaining spells. I think these would be better defined as class features than spells but they are spells so, so be it. But having them no concentration is key as the ranger should not be thinking I have to weaken myself and drop my thematic feature or cast the rest of my spells. Presumably the full martials will be dishing out more sustained damage than the ranger does anyways, like the warlock is not top tier damage by any means while going hex/eldritch blast mode .
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I would love to see hunter's mark become a ranger feature instead of a spell. Maybe the tracking could be added in someplace else. Honestly, ranger is mostly a little weaker than it was after Tasha's except at level 1. They got a big boost at level 1, but lost some casting at level 3 with the loss of primal awareness, but the loss isn't huge because they now know more spells in general and could cast spells as rituals, which would save them slots. So strong all the way up until they lose Land strider, but then they gain an extra expertise. Personally I preferred Land strider. Nature's veil is stronger for the amount of time it lasts, but weaker because it takes a spell slot, but by then a first level spell slot isn't a huge sacrifice for greater invisibility for 2 rounds, in fact that is actually amazing.
All around I like Ranger this time around personally. I just want hunters mark to not be a spell and be a ranger ability that they can do PB per long rest or something and then you can push their first level spell slots back to level 2. As is I feel they just get too much for a 1 level dip.
Yeah, about that... They just take one level of ranger for that 1d6 damage bonus and that's it for competition. Monk will obliterate stuff with his flurry of blows +1d6.
Which is why it should probably be level 2. And on top of that martial design should be every odd level they get something huge, something on the order of another level of spells so a monk dipping 2 levels wold be giving up or slowing down access to something totally awesome.
I'd say that Hunter's Mark should be a class featuree with scaling, rather than a spell. Starts at level 1 with just the tracking component, at level 3 it gains 1d6 to damage once per turn, then it grows at least at 11th level (when other martials gain a third attack or improved divine smite) and at 17th level (because 1d10 sucks for a capstone). Scaling features are a universal answer to why one should stick to ine class. Monk's martial damage die, barbarian rage, they all get better as you level this one class. Though monks should get a buff.
Why not change the damage bonus to proficiency bonus instead of a d6? Slight nerf at low levels but will help keep up at tier 3 and 4.
I would definitely prefer it as a class feature than spell that did that.
Bardic inspiration scales on total level as opposed to bard level so it isnt like it would be the only instance of it for multiclassing.
I also would prefer it at level 2 of that was the case
Alternatively scaling with level 3 or 5 slots to 2/3d6 or perhaps to d8/d10 would be good
I have made my suggestion on hunter's mark in other topics/threads. I believe hunter's mark should scale with Ranger spell casting, specifically Ranger, and it (as well as hex) should start at 1d4, right now the 1d6 damage blows other spells like Divine Favor completely out of the water. Many 1st level spells are ill-balanced but it's fine if it's ill balanced if it progresses as a class feature, however in it's current state it basically peaks at level 1, with one minor exception at level 18. Right now Ranger 5/ Rogue 5 blows both Ranger 10 and Rogue 10 completely out of the water.
Sw = short sword, HM = hunter's mark, HP = Hunter's Prey assuming two weapon fighting style
Ranger 5/Rogue 5 gets: (1d6 Sw + 1d6 HM + DEX MOD) * 3 + 3d6 sneak +1d8 HP
Ranger 10 gets: (1d6 Sw + 1d6 HM + DEX MOD) * 3 + 1d8 HP
Rogue 10 gets 1d6 Sw * 2 + DEX + 5d6
Sneak attack scales into Tier 2 and beyond at a constant rate, so stick with rogue until Ranger 5 / Rogue 15 for the optimal expert class right now.
What I purpose is that Hunter's Mark should start at 1d4 and increases to 1d6 at ranger 5, 1d8 at ranger 9, 1d10 at ranger 13 and 1d12 at ranger 17 (or 2d6 if you want slightly more) by using higher leveled spell slots.
the purposed ranger at 10 would instead get: (1d6 Sw + 1d8 HM + DEX MOD) * 3 + 1d8 HP.
Ok you're still going to do less than the rogue/ranger above but it's still slightly more than a level 5 ranger (+~2.1 DPR @65% chance to hit for each dice increase). At level 13 you'd be up to (1d6 Sw + 1d10 HM + DEX MOD) * 3 +1d8HP. you also get Nature's veil at this level, which is damage increase when you can use it (it competes with Hunter's Mark for BA and 1d6 Hunter's Mark does ever so slightly more damage (~0.6 DPR with 3 short swords, @65% chance to hit for HM vs 87.75% for the Veil). Meanwhile Rogue gets an ability that gives them free advantage over 80% (maybe over 90% with alert feat) of the time at level 13 in comparison.
Right now Ranger does a bit too much damage in T1, passable damage in T2, subpar damage in T3 and terrible damage in T4. It's still more viable from DPR than in 5E but it's late game features and damage increases are just way to mediocre. Hunter's Mark adding some damage at least rectifies it slightly. I don't think ranger needs to do as much as Rogue since Rogue doesn't have spell casting but getting only 1 real increase between 5 to 18 is poor, and that one increase conflicts with HM for bonus action....
Yeah I agree with a lot of people here. At this point I think it should just be a class feature, and only improve if you keep putting levels in Ranger. Would anyone miss it if Hunters Mark was no longer a spell? I never even considered using it on a Druid. That seems to be what is happening with Eldritch Blast and I think that's okay.
So being able to deal 6d6+mod at level 1 is broken beyond measure. It is more broken than what people though was broken about rogues sneak attack which was tame and it gets worse at level 4 & 5.
All you need to do is take the background that gives you magic initiate (arcane) like Cultist or Sage for Hex. Lets say the ranger's dex mod is a 4 and dual wields two crossbows
Cast both Hex and Hunter's Mark on a creature which will give you 2d6 a swing. With dual wielding hand cross bows that is 3d6 per hit which 6d6+4 in a round. At level 2 you take fighting style two weapon fighting which now you can add you ability mod to your off-hand crossbow which is now 6d6+8. Hunter's Prey at level 3 will add an extra 1d8 to one attack so that is now 6d6+1d8+8. At level 4 you take the charger feat which ironically works with range weapons and all you need to do is move 10ft per attack which adds a d8. Now that is 6d6+3d8+8 in a round. With extra attack at level 5 that is now 9d6+4d8+12 a round.
The fix to this would be to change the wording on Favored Enemy from "don't need to concentrate on hunter's mark" to "gain advantage on concentration checks when concentrating on hunter's mark." This will make it more balanced without the loophole that it currently has in the UA.
Also the fix for charger would be to change "before hitting with an attack as part of your attack action" to "before hitting with a melee attack as part of your attack action" so that it only works with melee attacks.
The more I have seen it, the more I think it is fine at higher levels, but not great at low levels. Getting hunter's mark is fine, but maybe make the no-concentration a level 5 part of the feature.
Nah. It needs to change to advantage on concentration checks for hunters mark. Being able to deal 9d6+4d8+mod by level 5 is broken. People thought that being able to sneak attack twice a round is bad even though it hardly came up so this loophole on FE will need to go as well even if it take time to set up.
your numbers make 0 sense. melee attack with two weapon fighting is 6d6 (1d6 from short sword, 1d6 from hunter's mark) + 3x mod (with the two weapon fighting style). Where you are getting the other 4d8 or 3d6 I have no clue. The other 3d6 could come from getting magic initiate for hex and using 2 first level spell slots, of your total of 6 at level 5. but this would still be missing 4d8 that you are throwing out there. And that would be to a single target since it takes your bonus action to move the mark and to cast it or hex. Sneak attack wasn't "broken" when doing more than once either. It just was a loophole that inexperienced players didn't get so you can't balance rogue around having it.
They’re also stacking Hunter’s Prey, the Charger feat, and Extra Attack at 5th level.
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Extra attack I accounted for with 6d6, hex would get the other 3d6, Hunter's prey is only 1d8 IF the target is below their max health already, making hte extra damage you are getting from hex even MORE pointless. and Charger is only 1d8. So that accounts for 2 of the d8 not the others. Also charger specifically states "you can only benefit from one of these once per turn" so I still don't know where he is getting the other 2d8's.
Meanwhile a battle master fighter also with two weapon fighting and charger is getting 3d6+1d8+3xmod + Battlemaster Maneuverx 2 because of action surge, and they could take magic initiate for hex as well at first level for 6d6+2d8+ 3x mod from battle master maneuver and charger and still action surge for another 6d6+1d8+ 3x Mod. if they also use hex. Hex make multi-attacks strong, who would have thunk? A battlemaster fighter with sword and board is still capable of 2d8 +2xmod +4 and knock someone prone +Battle master manuever for another d8., if they have hex you add in another 2d6 to the damage, or heck maybe they are an ardling and have divine favor for an extra 1d4 on each attack. Yes the damag is smaller, but not by much and they are getting +2 AC from the shield + effectively having evasion from the shield. In this case they are still doing 3d8+2d4+2xmod +4 and knocking someone prone and then action surging for another 2d8+2xmod+ 2d4+ 4 with advantage, and it only scales up from there.
Maybe pushing hunter's mark no concentration to 11 is what is needed. Rangers really hurt for good stuff at 11, and by that point we are talking Paladin's get an extra d8 on all their attack and Fighters get an entire Extra attack.
Still I am not opposed to pushing the no concentration back, but after level 9, when you have 3rd level slots you are not concentrating on hunter's mark anymore. There are too many better things to do with your concentration.
My only issue with the no concentration at level one is dips, pushing it to 2-5 would handle that. Other than that its really hard to say until we see the whole system in place. We can compare it vs the bard and rogue to some extent but they are changing spells so even that might not be true. Heck it might not even stack with things like hex, they could easily be adding in some no like bonuses stack type thing and classify both as X bonus. Vs the rogue it looks really good especially at low levels, but is that because its too good or because the rogue needs to be tuned up. I'm leaning towards the latter as I'd of placed rogue as 2nd worst class in 5e mechanically on a optimization level.
I agree completely that the multi-class dip is the biggest concern. And the fact we don't know what other classes and spells will look like. These two packets are all we have to go on for now, so I wouldn't speculate too much on Hex, etc.
They did say that they understand they probably overtuned Ranger and made it stronger than it needed to be. I imagine some part of hunter's mark will get delayed until later levels. As long as we provide feedback.
As I stated in another thread (which probably wasn't the proper place for me to respond to Hadesisle's idea), instead of no concentration or advantage on concentration checks with Hunter's Mark, what about just giving the Ranger automatic success on concentration rolls for Hunter's Mark? That would keep them from adding Hex onto it (a good thing, I think), but would prevent them from casting other concentration spells as well (which would reduce their choices in utilizing other spells, since they might be constantly "concentrating" on Hunter's Mark, a negative in my book).
In reality, I would probably also support the idea that others have stated for the spell (or feature if it is switched to that) could scale according to Ranger level, starting at d4 and using a larger die at certain increments.
Why would you add Hex on to Hunter's Mark when there are better spells to use instead? Hex needs a bonus action to move, Hunter's Mark needs a bonus action to move, so it's absolutely pointless in party vs. group battles since you don't have enough bonus actions whenever your target dies. It only works on party vs. solo target where you expect that solo target to be surviving at least two rounds, preferable three or four.
at 1st level you've got Ensnaring Strike which is great against anything not large, you have goodberry and healing word for healing which need spell slots, at 2nd level spellcasting you get heat metal, barkskin, pass without trace, silence and spike growth which need concentration. at 3rd level you've got conjure animals, sleet storm & elemental weapon (if DM is tight with magic weapons). At 4th you've got Dominate Beast, Polymorph & conjure woodland beings or minor elementals. Finally at 5th you've got conjure fey or elementals, If you're a ranged character you additionally get swift quiver*.
*Personally I think swift quiver should be reduced to 1st level at 1 arrow per bonus action and upcast at 3rd level to 2 arrows per bonus action or 5th level for 3 arrows per bonus action, right now dual shortsword ranger beats out bow ranger too much from the higher number of attacks.
Two Weapon Fighting accounts for the other attack. Other than that I think it’s just mistaken arithmetic.
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Content Troubleshooting
I’m not really worried about something like the Hex+HM chicanery - takes too long to set up to be useful except in white room calls. Multiclassing dips are a much bigger problem but even then what are you actually getting - 2 cantrips, HM and 2 spell slots so you get HM damage (+1d6) for 2 fights a day. You don’t get evocation spells so your cantrips are of limited offensive power and the other 2 spells don’t matter if your using the slots for HM. If your really concerned then the simplest solution is to switch when you get fighting style and favored enemy.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Actually I think it should be no concentration, really this is replacing the hunters mark from tashas which isn't a spell. And warlocks should get a similar no concentration feature for hex. The reason is a spell casting class should not have to choose between doing its default damage and casting spells. It would be like adding a restriction on arcane trickster that they can't sneak attack while sustaining spells. I think these would be better defined as class features than spells but they are spells so, so be it. But having them no concentration is key as the ranger should not be thinking I have to weaken myself and drop my thematic feature or cast the rest of my spells. Presumably the full martials will be dishing out more sustained damage than the ranger does anyways, like the warlock is not top tier damage by any means while going hex/eldritch blast mode .