Ye know Zoken, that seems harsh. Considering you and I got into it over my wishing that the "Unity" cleric would not be poisoned by undue Social Warrior backlash and go back to the original, stronger characterization.
Is this a bad time to bring up my free market domain cleric homebrew?
People "get their feathers ruffled" over design space clashes like this because too-tight overlap between design space cramps both options and makes each feel worse than it should be.
This 'Fey Wanderer' completely invalidates the Horizon Walker in any campaign which ends up involving the Feywild. Someone who played the Horizon Walker because they loved that idea of a planar guardian and explorer, someone who's just a little bit beyond the material realm and who can tap the energies of the wider universe...gets to feel bad about that choice whenever the Feywild comes up because this Fey Wanderer class is purpose built to Make Feywild Great Again(C) and be the ultimate elf seducer. And the Fey Wanderer, itself, doesn't get to try and expand its knowledge of plane-hopping to other planes, be "the closest thing to an expert" if the party needs to go to the Hells or the Abyss or what-have-you because the Horizon Walker exists.
Both players get to feel bad about their subclass choice because the other exists. Their design space conflicts, and leaves insufficient room for either to function the way they want to. Same with the Brute fighter, which said "HEY! Remember the Champion subclass, and also the entire barbarian class? Yeah, **** those guys - get the best of both as well as the best of the fighter class overall by taking this one overpowered, design-space-hogging super subclass! Get most of the benefits of Rage without raging! Get three-plus attacks! Be the ultimate primal Strong Man, even though that is the core design space of an ENTIRE CHARACTER CLASS! **** it, barbarians are overplayed anyways, right?"
If one wants a specific class, subclass, or any other player selectable major character option to have a strong identity, that option's design space needs to be respected. The more things out there that try to crib the same design space, the weaker all of those things' identities are. It's why the Brute was bad, and it's why this Fey Wanderer rubs people the wrong way.
Melee weapon attacks with ranged weapons are treated as with an improvised weapon which would normally remove proficiency bonus to attack and make the damage die 1d4 instead of 1d6.
But toss in the Tavern Brawler feat and you get your proficiency bonus back and can now grapple as a bonus action after a melee hit with the lightning launcher, which is excellent since infiltrator didn't have any bonus actions to use anyway.
Since it's part of the Armor Model subclass feature and not just a property of the weapon I think you still get your INT bonus to attack instead of STR as would be normal with an improvised weapon. However the extra 1d6 lightning damage per turn seems more like a property of the weapon itself so that seems iffier to me but it does say "hit with it" without specifying whether the attack was melee or ranged so... maybe?
However it gets better. Add the Armor of Magic Strength infusion and now you can make strength checks and saving throws with your Intelligence modifier. Now you've got a solid INT based grappling build.
Which is kind of hilarious considering the level 15 Guardian feature all but lets you grapple as a reaction assuming your opponent has less than 30 move and crap strength saves.
Do be sure to ask the DM how they'll deal with the 5 ft disadvantage aspect, unless you're basically suggesting getting a really cool gun just to use it like a club.
Do be sure to ask the DM how they'll deal with the 5 ft disadvantage aspect, unless you're basically suggesting getting a really cool gun just to use it like a club.
I'm suggesting getting the know how to sometimes use a really cool gun as a club. Not to do really cool gun clubbing exclusively. If you're not in 5 ft of an enemy really cool gun shooting is clearly the better option.
Tavern Brawler improves the Infiltrator's melee game and can lock down an enemy's movement with a bonus action. Plus it's just cool.
You could use shocking grasp for melee attacks however since it's a spell it doesn't benefit from extra attack and 2*(1d4 + INT) averages out better than 2d8 at level 5. Heck, better even than 3d8 at level 11. If that extra 1d6 can be added to a melee attack once per turn it very slightly edges out shocking grasp at level 17 too.
Another option could be Crossbow Expert to remove the 5 ft disadvantage on ranged attacks and be able to fire a hand crossbow as bonus action... though one would need to get proficiency with a hand crossbow through some other means since Armorer's don't get proficiency with Martial weapons, and that hand crossbow would rely on dexterity which you might have otherwise not focused much on due to wearing Heavy Armor, etc, etc.
Another option could be Crossbow Expert to remove the 5 ft disadvantage on ranged attacks and be able to fire a hand crossbow as bonus action... though one would need to get proficiency with a hand crossbow through some other means since Armorer's don't get proficiency with Martial weapons, and that hand crossbow would rely on dexterity which you might have otherwise not focused much on due to wearing Heavy Armor, etc, etc.
And considering that Artificers can already do the repeating shot infusion, crossbow expert is even less appealing.
People "get their feathers ruffled" over design space clashes like this because too-tight overlap between design space cramps both options and makes each feel worse than it should be.
This 'Fey Wanderer' completely invalidates the Horizon Walker in any campaign which ends up involving the Feywild. Someone who played the Horizon Walker because they loved that idea of a planar guardian and explorer, someone who's just a little bit beyond the material realm and who can tap the energies of the wider universe...gets to feel bad about that choice whenever the Feywild comes up because this Fey Wanderer class is purpose built to Make Feywild Great Again(C) and be the ultimate elf seducer. And the Fey Wanderer, itself, doesn't get to try and expand its knowledge of plane-hopping to other planes, be "the closest thing to an expert" if the party needs to go to the Hells or the Abyss or what-have-you because the Horizon Walker exists.
Both players get to feel bad about their subclass choice because the other exists. Their design space conflicts, and leaves insufficient room for either to function the way they want to. Same with the Brute fighter, which said "HEY! Remember the Champion subclass, and also the entire barbarian class? Yeah, **** those guys - get the best of both as well as the best of the fighter class overall by taking this one overpowered, design-space-hogging super subclass! Get most of the benefits of Rage without raging! Get three-plus attacks! Be the ultimate primal Strong Man, even though that is the core design space of an ENTIRE CHARACTER CLASS! **** it, barbarians are overplayed anyways, right?"
If one wants a specific class, subclass, or any other player selectable major character option to have a strong identity, that option's design space needs to be respected. The more things out there that try to crib the same design space, the weaker all of those things' identities are. It's why the Brute was bad, and it's why this Fey Wanderer rubs people the wrong way.
Neither of these classes remotely invalidate each other by share an adjacent design space because they do entirely different things mechanically. One, the Horizon Walker, seeks out rifts, shoots force lasers, and is slippery as all hell. The other, the Fey Wanderer, uses fey magic to do (probably too much) psychic damage, redirecting charm effects and doing it with a glimmering smile. You could put these subclasses side by side in a fight and they would be fulfilling different roles without treading on each other's toes.
There can be two similarly flavoured things in a setting, you are just giving a player more options to choose from. Your argument is like stating that the Triton should be removed because we already have Sea Elves and there is only room for 1 advanced, mystical seafaring race. They share similar design spaces... hell... they look pretty similar too, but their lore and mechanics are different so whats the harm in having them there?
Now if you wanna argue that the Fey Wanderer maybe relies too much on "do da psychic damage" then I will agree with you. I would definitely change up either Dreadful Strikes or Blessings of the Courts to do something entirely different. Personally, I think Dreadful Strikes is the one that needs to go as it is just another bonus action that competes with the 500 other bonus actions that you have as a ranger (which is what makes the Horizon Walker so clunky at times). Plus, it seems that every new ranger subclass has "use bonus action, do 1d6/1d8 of something damage once per turn" as a 3rd level feature. I would maybe move the smite effect from Blessings of the Courts onto Dreadful Strikes while getting rid of the other bits of it. Then you could leave room for Blessing of the Courts to have something like "your charm and frighten effects can bypass creatures who are immune to them, they act as if they have resistance instead while creatures who are already resistant act as if they don't have it". That might be a bit wild but would at least differentiate the subclass a bit more as well as making them truly feel like they are one with the Fey.
Personally, I think Dreadful Strikes is the one that needs to go as it is just another bonus action that competes with the 500 other bonus actions that you have as a ranger (which is what makes the Horizon Walker so clunky at times). Plus, it seems that every new ranger subclass has "use bonus action, do 1d6/1d8 of something damage once per turn" as a 3rd level feature.
I wonder if part of the reason that this feels to be accurate is because they are trying to give options for how to use the bonus action. It seems like Hunter's Mark is a given for most ranger builds and they did just try to bake that into the class. By giving rangers a few times to utilize the spell without using spell slots, maybe their hope would be that players wouldn't feel like they had to get as much use out of the damage aspect and would focus more on the RP aspects. Combine that with "Here's another damage option for your bonus action" and it is quite possible that was their goal.
Of course, being able to stack damage is a prime goal of many players, as is evidenced by this excerpt from post #7:
"Finally, the Fey Wanderer. (If the upcoming book isn't planescape, I don't know what will be) All of the added spells are great, Cunning will is great, and Dreadful Strikes is, um, well, dreadfully deadly. So, add Hunter's Mark for free from the Class Feature Variants of Favored Foe, then Hex, and attack two different creatures with 2 weapon fighting, and at level 3 you're doing 6d6+6 damage in a turn. That may or may not be broken. I think something's going to have to change around here." (Underlining, boldfacing, and italicizing are mine).
This theoretical build is already tossing in a 1 level warlock dip or a human variant Magic Initiate:Warlock. Perhaps the reason why all of the bonus action options are coming down is as a way to gate all of the damage in a way where it can't all be stacked but places more emphasis on the "Why are you choosing this option at this time" part?
Is this a bad time to bring up my free market domain cleric homebrew?
I assume the class has the ability to cast Bigby's Hand, and can make that hand invisible?
Bigby's Hand Legerdemain :)
And he'll cast it for you, but you have to pay. After all, his magic is a scarce resource with multiple uses and he would only diminish the value of his spell casting ability if he just gave it away.
I would laugh if Human Variant + Weapon Master became a thing just to make this all come together.
WotC- how can we make Weapon Master sexy?
Barney, from HIMYM- You can't.
WotC- What about making it part of a package that would include two other feats that don't belong together?
Barney- Challenge Accepted. This is going to be legen... wait for it... dary. Legendary! Alright everyone, Suit Up! We need our A games for this.
Literally the only feat that I was talking about originally was Tavern Brawler. 1 feat. Just one. To make improvised melee with the Lightning Launcher viable.
I brought up crossbow expert as an alternative (albeit one which sucks in this case) cause you brought up ranged attacks in close quarters, something which I wasn't even originally talking about.
Ever since the new Eberron release, I've been all about the Artificer and the Armorer subclass scratches that itch.
I always knew there should be an Iron Man tie-in and this class needs a few options to get it off the ground.
What I love the most, though, is the idea that subclasses for the Artificer can have their own exclusive infusions. Like the warlock invocations that require certain pacts or subclasses of their own, artificers should have their own different flavors of infusions.
WotC should go back and give the original 3 subclasses a few exclusive infusions of their own to balance things out.
Need a boon that lets you attach yourself (in the suit) into an iron golem so you can have some Hulkbuster Armor
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Multiclass with Tempest Cleric and Storm Sorcerer, and you've got yourself the lightning master.
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ZEUS!
I also think an Eladrin Fey Wanderer would be fun to play as.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Is this a bad time to bring up my free market domain cleric homebrew?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
People "get their feathers ruffled" over design space clashes like this because too-tight overlap between design space cramps both options and makes each feel worse than it should be.
This 'Fey Wanderer' completely invalidates the Horizon Walker in any campaign which ends up involving the Feywild. Someone who played the Horizon Walker because they loved that idea of a planar guardian and explorer, someone who's just a little bit beyond the material realm and who can tap the energies of the wider universe...gets to feel bad about that choice whenever the Feywild comes up because this Fey Wanderer class is purpose built to Make Feywild Great Again(C) and be the ultimate elf seducer. And the Fey Wanderer, itself, doesn't get to try and expand its knowledge of plane-hopping to other planes, be "the closest thing to an expert" if the party needs to go to the Hells or the Abyss or what-have-you because the Horizon Walker exists.
Both players get to feel bad about their subclass choice because the other exists. Their design space conflicts, and leaves insufficient room for either to function the way they want to. Same with the Brute fighter, which said "HEY! Remember the Champion subclass, and also the entire barbarian class? Yeah, **** those guys - get the best of both as well as the best of the fighter class overall by taking this one overpowered, design-space-hogging super subclass! Get most of the benefits of Rage without raging! Get three-plus attacks! Be the ultimate primal Strong Man, even though that is the core design space of an ENTIRE CHARACTER CLASS! **** it, barbarians are overplayed anyways, right?"
If one wants a specific class, subclass, or any other player selectable major character option to have a strong identity, that option's design space needs to be respected. The more things out there that try to crib the same design space, the weaker all of those things' identities are. It's why the Brute was bad, and it's why this Fey Wanderer rubs people the wrong way.
Please do not contact or message me.
I assume the class has the ability to cast Bigby's Hand, and can make that hand invisible?
Do be sure to ask the DM how they'll deal with the 5 ft disadvantage aspect, unless you're basically suggesting getting a really cool gun just to use it like a club.
I'm suggesting getting the know how to sometimes use a really cool gun as a club. Not to do really cool gun clubbing exclusively. If you're not in 5 ft of an enemy really cool gun shooting is clearly the better option.
Tavern Brawler improves the Infiltrator's melee game and can lock down an enemy's movement with a bonus action. Plus it's just cool.
You could use shocking grasp for melee attacks however since it's a spell it doesn't benefit from extra attack and 2*(1d4 + INT) averages out better than 2d8 at level 5. Heck, better even than 3d8 at level 11. If that extra 1d6 can be added to a melee attack once per turn it very slightly edges out shocking grasp at level 17 too.
Another option could be Crossbow Expert to remove the 5 ft disadvantage on ranged attacks and be able to fire a hand crossbow as bonus action... though one would need to get proficiency with a hand crossbow through some other means since Armorer's don't get proficiency with Martial weapons, and that hand crossbow would rely on dexterity which you might have otherwise not focused much on due to wearing Heavy Armor, etc, etc.
And considering that Artificers can already do the repeating shot infusion, crossbow expert is even less appealing.
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Neither of these classes remotely invalidate each other by share an adjacent design space because they do entirely different things mechanically. One, the Horizon Walker, seeks out rifts, shoots force lasers, and is slippery as all hell. The other, the Fey Wanderer, uses fey magic to do (probably too much) psychic damage, redirecting charm effects and doing it with a glimmering smile. You could put these subclasses side by side in a fight and they would be fulfilling different roles without treading on each other's toes.
There can be two similarly flavoured things in a setting, you are just giving a player more options to choose from. Your argument is like stating that the Triton should be removed because we already have Sea Elves and there is only room for 1 advanced, mystical seafaring race. They share similar design spaces... hell... they look pretty similar too, but their lore and mechanics are different so whats the harm in having them there?
Now if you wanna argue that the Fey Wanderer maybe relies too much on "do da psychic damage" then I will agree with you. I would definitely change up either Dreadful Strikes or Blessings of the Courts to do something entirely different. Personally, I think Dreadful Strikes is the one that needs to go as it is just another bonus action that competes with the 500 other bonus actions that you have as a ranger (which is what makes the Horizon Walker so clunky at times). Plus, it seems that every new ranger subclass has "use bonus action, do 1d6/1d8 of something damage once per turn" as a 3rd level feature. I would maybe move the smite effect from Blessings of the Courts onto Dreadful Strikes while getting rid of the other bits of it. Then you could leave room for Blessing of the Courts to have something like "your charm and frighten effects can bypass creatures who are immune to them, they act as if they have resistance instead while creatures who are already resistant act as if they don't have it". That might be a bit wild but would at least differentiate the subclass a bit more as well as making them truly feel like they are one with the Fey.
I would laugh if Human Variant + Weapon Master became a thing just to make this all come together.
WotC- how can we make Weapon Master sexy?
Barney, from HIMYM- You can't.
WotC- What about making it part of a package that would include two other feats that don't belong together?
Barney- Challenge Accepted. This is going to be legen... wait for it... dary. Legendary! Alright everyone, Suit Up! We need our A games for this.
I wonder if part of the reason that this feels to be accurate is because they are trying to give options for how to use the bonus action. It seems like Hunter's Mark is a given for most ranger builds and they did just try to bake that into the class. By giving rangers a few times to utilize the spell without using spell slots, maybe their hope would be that players wouldn't feel like they had to get as much use out of the damage aspect and would focus more on the RP aspects. Combine that with "Here's another damage option for your bonus action" and it is quite possible that was their goal.
Of course, being able to stack damage is a prime goal of many players, as is evidenced by this excerpt from post #7:
"Finally, the Fey Wanderer. (If the upcoming book isn't planescape, I don't know what will be) All of the added spells are great, Cunning will is great, and Dreadful Strikes is, um, well, dreadfully deadly. So, add Hunter's Mark for free from the Class Feature Variants of Favored Foe, then Hex, and attack two different creatures with 2 weapon fighting, and at level 3 you're doing 6d6+6 damage in a turn. That may or may not be broken. I think something's going to have to change around here." (Underlining, boldfacing, and italicizing are mine).
This theoretical build is already tossing in a 1 level warlock dip or a human variant Magic Initiate:Warlock. Perhaps the reason why all of the bonus action options are coming down is as a way to gate all of the damage in a way where it can't all be stacked but places more emphasis on the "Why are you choosing this option at this time" part?
Bigby's Hand Legerdemain :)
And he'll cast it for you, but you have to pay. After all, his magic is a scarce resource with multiple uses and he would only diminish the value of his spell casting ability if he just gave it away.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Okay, I gotta admit. I’m not tracking your point. Which feats, what... “Which one of y’all just kicked me?”
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Literally the only feat that I was talking about originally was Tavern Brawler. 1 feat. Just one. To make improvised melee with the Lightning Launcher viable.
I brought up crossbow expert as an alternative (albeit one which sucks in this case) cause you brought up ranged attacks in close quarters, something which I wasn't even originally talking about.
Gotcha. Sorry, too early
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Hm . . . The Thunder Gauntlets can be monk weapons. I wonder what kind of synergy can be found there.
Ever since the new Eberron release, I've been all about the Artificer and the Armorer subclass scratches that itch.
I always knew there should be an Iron Man tie-in and this class needs a few options to get it off the ground.
What I love the most, though, is the idea that subclasses for the Artificer can have their own exclusive infusions. Like the warlock invocations that require certain pacts or subclasses of their own, artificers should have their own different flavors of infusions.
WotC should go back and give the original 3 subclasses a few exclusive infusions of their own to balance things out.
So the Armorer ignores heavy armor Str requirements and the Infiltrator ignores disadvantage on stealth.Are there any other classes where rules don't apply to them?Never mind; I just thought of abilities that ignore difficult terrain.
Gnome Armorist - Artificer Subclass Homebrew